Willow- recently switched to ProZinc

Suzanne & Darcy said:
I also didn’t see a dramatic difference in her numbers, but I see slight progress. I would plan to increase again after 14 cycles on 1.4. With some cats, you finally get to a breakthrough dose where you see better numbers. I certainly would like to see the preshot numbers come down.
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Would LOVE to get her preshot levels down, too. I really don't like seeing them so high :( is that just something that happens over time? I feel like her preshot levels were so much better at the beginning of our ProZinc journey.
 
Kate & Willow said:
Thank you for all of this! I wasn't able to get anything past a +4 today because I was not at home. Her PMPS was pretty high- she just got her PM shot. I can get a +6 tomorrow, though, for sure! With the Dr. Elsey's I can definitely concentrate that to the first half of the cycle and do only LC wet in the last half. And I can definitely start noting that on her SS!
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You are doing great juggling everything and taking care of Willow! :bighug:
 
Kate & Willow said:
Would LOVE to get her preshot levels down, too. I really don't like seeing them so high :( is that just something that happens over time? I feel like her preshot levels were so much better at the beginning of our ProZinc journey.
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She did seem to have more yellow preshots back at the beginning. Cam you think of anything that jas changed?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
She did seem to have more yellow preshots back at the beginning. Cam you think of anything that jas changed?
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The only thing that comes to mind is that when she had that drop on 11/05 from PMPS of 411 to +2 243, you mentioned she may be a cat that needs slightly more carbs at the beginning of the cycle so I mixed a couple scoops of Tiki Cat Born Carnivore into her Dr. Elsey's. Not a large amount by any means- just a couple handfuls.. but that is the only thing I can think of that could be a variable. The past couple of days I've fed only Dr. Elsey's and not the mix. She had a pretty solid curve today with similar AMPS & PMPS.
We're done with our 7 days of the 1.4u. Thinking I'll go ahead and increase to 1.6u starting tomorrow morning and see if we can get some lower nadirs. Hoping to get some nadirs under 150 soon.
 
Good. I am proud of you for keeping up with everything and going ahead with the increase. You have the data to show that she needs the increase and she will be safe with it.

Do you know the carb percentage of the Born Carnivore? Is that a wet or dry food? Does Tiki even make dry food?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Oh. Okay. Then she may be more carb sensitive. That’s definitely a medium carb food. If she has too many steep drops then it probably could be managed with something closer to 8-10 percent (wet food.) The dry food tends to influence the BG for a longer period of time than wet.

Good luck with the increase.
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Increase is going... well? so far? We had a great nadir two days ago of 129, but her pre-shot values haven't moved at all in weeks. Today's AMPS was 425.
Seems like values, overall, have sort of stayed the same throughout all of the dose increases. Why could this be? My poor girl.
 
Also- I received an automatic feeder yesterday! What do you recommend as far as feeding times? Shot time, +2, +4, +6? I can do the math to split up what I give her every 12 hours (1/4 cup).
 
Wondering if cats do better on Young Again than on Dr. Elsey's? I'd be willing to change. She will eat wet food (I have to hand-feed her, meaning she'll only eat it if I'm holding the plate of food lol) but we are still struggling to get her to eat any wet on her own if left out during the day or overnight.
 
Kate & Willow said:
Increase is going... well? so far? We had a great nadir two days ago of 129, but her pre-shot values haven't moved at all in weeks. Today's AMPS was 425.
Seems like values, overall, have sort of stayed the same throughout all of the dose increases. Why could this be? My poor girl.
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Let’s just give her time, and if her numbers don’t come down a bit just keep on following the protocol.
 
Kate & Willow said:
Wondering if cats do better on Young Again than on Dr. Elsey's? I'd be willing to change. She will eat wet food (I have to hand-feed her, meaning she'll only eat it if I'm holding the plate of food lol) but we are still struggling to get her to eat any wet on her own if left out during the day or overnight.
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So you have to hold the dish even with the dry food?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
So you have to hold the dish even with the dry food?
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Oh goodness, no! Sorry I didn't clarify lol that would be WILD. She eats dry on her own no problem. And that's what I'll have in the automatic feeder. When I give her LC wet at shot times, she prefers to eat it if I'm holding the plate. When she starts eating some and i try putting the bowl on the ground she will walk away. It's so funny. Just reminding me who's the queen!!
 
Kate & Willow said:
Oh goodness, no! Sorry I didn't clarify lol that would be WILD. She eats dry on her own no problem. And that's what I'll have in the automatic feeder. When I give her LC wet at shot times, she prefers to eat it if I'm holding the plate. When she starts eating some and i try putting the bowl on the ground she will walk away. It's so funny. Just reminding me who's the queen!!
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Have you ever tried ground up pure bites freeze dried treats as a food topper?
 
Just a heads up, Young Again can cause soft stools in some cats (mentioning it only so you’re not surprised if it happens).

As for having to hold the plate of canned food … have you tried an elevated food bowl? It’s probably simply that she prefers dry food so makes you.work to get her to eat canned (lol) but some cats do actually prefer a higher food source.

The high PS numbers can be frustrating (many of us can relate, ugh), but cats are more than their BG numbers. How is the “whole cat report?” How are the 5 P’s (peeing, pooping, purring, playing, preening)?

And finally, has she had any more “episodes” now that she’s on Prozinc? I’ve been really curious about how she’s doing with the switch—it’s pretty rare to see a reaction to Lantus so Willow is an interesting case to follow.:cat:
 
JL and Chip said:
Just a heads up, Young Again can cause soft stools in some cats (mentioning it only so you’re not surprised if it happens).

As for having to hold the plate of canned food … have you tried an elevated food bowl? It’s probably simply that she prefers dry food so makes you.work to get her to eat canned (lol) but some cats do actually prefer a higher food source.

The high PS numbers can be frustrating (many of us can relate, ugh), but cats are more than their BG numbers. How is the “whole cat report?” How are the 5 P’s (peeing, pooping, purring, playing, preening)?

And finally, has she had any more “episodes” now that she’s on Prozinc? I’ve been really curious about how she’s doing with the switch—it’s pretty rare to see a reaction to Lantus so Willow is an interesting case to follow.:cat:
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Hi JL! Yes, we have tried elevated food bowls. I think she just likes to make me work haha. She already eats her dry out of an elevated bowl, and then her wet food I feed her out of a very nice ceramic (also elevated) bowl that looks like a mushroom. She prefers when I hold it because she's a queen.
Thank you for the reminder to look at the big picture! Her pees are like, half good and half the big, wet cement type of pees. But they're improving because I can remember shortly before her diagnosis that her pees were mostly the big, wet ones. I jokingly called it "Piss Mountain" to the vet. Poops are also hit or miss. Usually they're great but every once in awhile she'll have a bit of runny stool. I think it's likely from trying so many different kinds of wet foods since diagnosis. She's playful when her insulin onsets and she clearly starts feeling more comfortable and less restless :) She will still run and chase! And use her scratch lounge. Purring lots. Preening- not as much as her normal, but she has been enjoying me brushing her and helping with that.
Thank goodness-- no more episodes since switching to ProZinc! I could tell from the very first day on ProZinc that it was gonna be better for her. I feel like her personality has been back since the switch. No more episodes, less restlessness, and there was one morning on the Lantus that she peed in the bed (not like her at ALL), and that hasn't happened since the switch either.
Rallying for my girl to keep improving!! Endlessly grateful for this forum.
 
The bag of Young Again arrived today. I will start introducing that slowly, mixed in with her Dr. Elsey's. I hope she likes it.
I'm wondering- with the Young Again food- on their website they highly recommend free-feeding this food (Willow was always a grazer prior to diagnosis). Is that possible to do with diabetes or no? Should I still do scheduled meals when we (hopefully) fully switch over to YA? I know it's recommended to fast for two hours before the pre-shot test but I'm wondering if there's a different protocol with this food just based on feeding recommendations on their site.
 
Kate & Willow said:
The bag of Young Again arrived today. I will start introducing that slowly, mixed in with her Dr. Elsey's. I hope she likes it.
I'm wondering- with the Young Again food- on their website they highly recommend free-feeding this food (Willow was always a grazer prior to diagnosis). Is that possible to do with diabetes or no? Should I still do scheduled meals when we (hopefully) fully switch over to YA? I know it's recommended to fast for two hours before the pre-shot test but I'm wondering if there's a different protocol with this food just based on feeding recommendations on their site.
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I don’t believe they are writing those guidelines specifically for diabetic cats. The YA food would need to be taken away two hours before the preshot tests in order to ensure that the test isn’t inflated by the food. If it is, you can be lulled into a false sense of confidence as to what the BG is. If it’s inflated then you can’t know if you should have shot the whole dose or perhaps given a reduced dose. After you have a lot of data and know exactly how she responds to the food (how many points her BG goes up after eating the YA) then it may not matter as much because you will be able to account for that in her preshot tests. Having said all that, eating any meals after nadir can shorten the duration of the insulin and cause BG to rise prematurely all the way to PMPS and AMPS.
 
I'm realizing it's Sunday and Willow has completed 14 cycles on this dose. Is it time to increase again? To 1.8u? Want her nadirs lower, but it's strange how her nadir hasn't changed much since we started the ProZinc at 1u. Throughout the increases, her nadir has pretty much stayed consistent. Is that a common occurrence or are there possible reasons her nadir hasn't changed much? Resistance, etc?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
No, because we want her to spend less time in the higher numbers. So if we can get those nadirs down some, but still in safe territory (she has a lot of room for that) we want to do that.
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Thank you. We started 1.8u this morning and I'll be sure to do a few tests today throughout the cycle!
 
Today is the 7th day on this dose. Will be increasing to 2u starting tomorrow morning. Nadirs have not lowered throughout the dose increases since starting ProZinc on 1u... is that abnormal?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
It is a little unusual. Can you think of anything that would make her insulin resistant? A bad tooth? Anything else?
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The only thing I can think of- at her vet appointment in September (when she got diagnosed), the vet did say that her teeth were "bad". After the appointment, in our emails back and forth when I was keeping him updated on her weird symptoms on Lantus, I asked if getting a dental could help, but he bypassed the question in his response. Maybe I should bring it up again...
She had a dental (with extractions) about 3.5 years ago and recovered okay.
If there's a bad tooth or periodontal disease, does that create a resistance to the insulin?
 
Kate & Willow said:
The only thing I can think of- at her vet appointment in September (when she got diagnosed), the vet did say that her teeth were "bad". After the appointment, in our emails back and forth when I was keeping him updated on her weird symptoms on Lantus, I asked if getting a dental could help, but he bypassed the question in his response. Maybe I should bring it up again...
She had a dental (with extractions) about 3.5 years ago and recovered okay.
If there's a bad tooth or periodontal disease, does that create a resistance to the insulin?
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Yes. Tooth problems can cause insulin resistance. Any inflammation or infection can cause insulin resistance. I have seen cats who had a dental cleaning and extractions get much better numbers and start earning dose reductions.
 
Still waiting on the vet to send me the estimate for a dental but I did let him know that I'd like to get one for her.
Today so far we are seeing better numbers with this curve. I'm happy to see her spending some more time in the blues. Wonder if she's currently in a bounce :/
 
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I’m really happy to see more blue on her spreadsheet! I would say that it looks like she could do with another increase, but that I would like to see a curve first with more testing from about the +4 to +8 range. How is she feeling and acting?
 
Hi Suzanne! I could definitely do another curve... the one I did two days ago I was only able to get the +6 +9 +10 and wasn't home for the +8. Happy to do another curve focusing on the second half of the cycle. May not be able to do one til Friday.
Today she rested a lot and had some nice blue numbers and then shot up at PMPS- the highest number yet at 487. I get so stressed when the jumps are so huge like that. We just did her shot and she is being playful which is good. I feel like her water consumption has improved a lot the past couple of weeks. And overall, she's playing more. All great signs but I still worry constantly. I just got the estimate for the dental so will get that scheduled asap and I hope it helps her numbers overall. She is so strong and I will do any and everything for her! She's acclimating pretty well to the Young Again kibble (although she'll still have a loose stool here and there) and we're almost fully transitioned over. I went slow and also want to use up this Dr. Elsey's if I can!
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Yes. By all means.
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Thank you so much!!
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