Willow- recently switched to ProZinc

Kate & Willow

Kate & Willow

Member
Hi all!!

My cat, Willow, recently switched to ProZinc after unusual reactions to Lantus- (https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...cat-having-unusual-response-to-lantus.295138/)
We're on day 3 of ProZinc and she's much more herself! Less restless, playing again.
I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced their cat not taking the U40 syringes well? When she was on Lantus, it seemed like she didn't mind injections. This morning she ran away from me a couple of times until finally giving in. When the needle goes in, she lets out a little whine. I know these syringes are 29g and the U100 syringes were 31g, so slightly thinner.
I've been shooting in the scruff. This morning after the first attempt and she ran off, I tried again in the side and she wasn't having that. We eventually got it in the scruff. I feel bad that she's uncomfy with these syringes.
Any tips are welcome! Should I do the conversion and try the U100 syringes again? Her whines make me very nervous every time I inject and I'm also nervous about shooting correctly and not accidentally going into muscle or something.
I've watched so many videos online of people giving their cats insulin to see how they're grabbing scruff, etc. But I still overthink it every time unfortunately.
Thank you!!
 
Ksweeney said:
Hi all!!

My cat, Willow, recently switched to ProZinc after unusual reactions to Lantus- (https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...cat-having-unusual-response-to-lantus.295138/)
We're on day 3 of ProZinc and she's much more herself! Less restless, playing again.
I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced their cat not taking the U40 syringes well? When she was on Lantus, it seemed like she didn't mind injections. This morning she ran away from me a couple of times until finally giving in. When the needle goes in, she lets out a little whine. I know these syringes are 29g and the U100 syringes were 31g, so slightly thinner.
I've been shooting in the scruff. This morning after the first attempt and she ran off, I tried again in the side and she wasn't having that. We eventually got it in the scruff. I feel bad that she's uncomfy with these syringes.
Any tips are welcome! Should I do the conversion and try the U100 syringes again? Her whines make me very nervous every time I inject and I'm also nervous about shooting correctly and not accidentally going into muscle or something.
I've watched so many videos online of people giving their cats insulin to see how they're grabbing scruff, etc. But I still overthink it every time unfortunately.
Thank you!!
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Hi there. I would be happy to help you with anything related to ProZinc. It definitely would not hurt to try using the U-100 syringes and using the conversion chart. It’s awful that she’s feeling so much better now and yet shot time is becoming upsetting to her and stressful to you.

What brand of U-40 syringes are you using? I’m just trying to think of anything. I wonder if they’re just not sharp or something? Here’s the conversion chart in case you don’t have it. I am here to help you with anything ProZinc related.

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Suzanne & Darcy said:
Hi there. I would be happy to help you with anything related to ProZinc. It definitely would not hurt to try using the U-100 syringes and using the conversion chart. It’s awful that she’s feeling so much better now and yet shot time is becoming upsetting to her and stressful to you.

What brand of U-40 syringes are you using? I’m just trying to think of anything. I wonder if they’re just not sharp or something? Here’s the conversion chart in case you don’t have it. I am here to help you with anything ProZinc related.

View attachment 71306
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Thank you so much for the conversion chart!! I think I'll give it a try and see if it helps. She's currently on 1u of ProZinc, so I would draw up 2.5U on the U100 syringes, correct?
Attaching a picture of the brand!
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
Hi there. I would be happy to help you with anything related to ProZinc. It definitely would not hurt to try using the U-100 syringes and using the conversion chart. It’s awful that she’s feeling so much better now and yet shot time is becoming upsetting to her and stressful to you.

What brand of U-40 syringes are you using? I’m just trying to think of anything. I wonder if they’re just not sharp or something? Here’s the conversion chart in case you don’t have it. I am here to help you with anything ProZinc related.

View attachment 71306
Click to expand...
Also, I'm just thinking of all her shots so far- it seems like she does better when I shoot a little above the shoulder blades and more her neck. But that skin feels thicker. Is that just the fat layer? Not muscle or anything right? I still tent it but it's not as loose. This is where I overthink A LOT. When I try to shoot in a looser skin tent, like the shoulder blade area, that's when I feel like she cries.
 
I read through the notes on your spreadsheet. How horrible that she even had a seizure. I have seen those in my cats … not insulin-related, of course, but they are very scary. Looking over her spreadsheet, you are doing well. I would not have shot a skinny dose yesterday morning when her AMPS was 209. It looks like she will need an increase after she’d been on this dose for 7 days. We want to let her settle into the new insulin first though. I would like to get her out of the yellows. The goal is to gradually shoot lower preshots as you gather data on how she responds to each dose with the lower preshots.
 
Ksweeney said:
Thank you so much for the conversion chart!! I think I'll give it a try and see if it helps. She's currently on 1u of ProZinc, so I would draw up 2.5U on the U100 syringes, correct?
Attaching a picture of the brand!
View attachment 71308
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I used those UltiCare syringes too, when we were on ProZinc. We didn’t have a problem, but I definitely think it’s worth a try to use the U-100 syringes. My U-100 syringes were BDs and they were very good (sharp, less air bubbles than other brands.)

So for right now, if you want to give 1 unit of ProZinc, you can use a U-100 syringe and draw it back to the 2.5 mark.
 
And as for where to shoot, you will find a place that is more comfortable for her. If you feel like her neck is better then try it. You just want to make sure you can get under the skin. I see those U-40s are 1/2 inch long. Maybe that’s it. My BD syringes were 5/16 inch long so that’s less than 1/2 inches. Maybe it’s the needle length?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I read through the notes on your spreadsheet. How horrible that she even had a seizure. I have seen those in my cats … not insulin-related, of course, but they are very scary. Looking over her spreadsheet, you are doing well. I would not have shot a skinny dose yesterday morning when her AMPS was 209. It looks like she will need an increase after she’d been on this dose for 7 days. We want to let her settle into the new insulin first though. I would like to get her out of the yellows. The goal is to gradually shoot lower preshots as you gather data on how she responds to each dose with the lower preshots.
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I agree that we could've shot the full 1U when her AMPS was 209- but it was the lowest pre-shot value so I referenced the ProZinc method with said if her pre-shot value was above 200, but lower than usual, a smaller dose was an option. But definitely want to start getting the data on shooting the lower pre-shots!
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
And as for where to shoot, you will find a place that is more comfortable for her. If you feel like her neck is better then try it. You just want to make sure you can get under the skin. I see those U-40s are 1/2 inch long. Maybe that’s it. My BD syringes were 5/16 inch long so that’s less than 1/2 inches. Maybe it’s the needle length?
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That could definitely be a reason why!
 
Well, the U-100s will allow us to do a little more “fine dosing” so I am all for it. Just be sure to make a note in your signature saying that you are using U-100 syringes and note it on your spreadsheet.

Sorry she’s had such a rocky start. Doesn’t it just hurt your heart to now have her getting upset and hurting at shot time. I am so sorry, but hopefully we have figured it out and she can get used to it not hurting again.
 
Ksweeney said:
I agree that we could've shot the full 1U when her AMPS was 209- but it was the lowest pre-shot value so I referenced the ProZinc method with said if her pre-shot value was above 200, but lower than usual, a smaller dose was an option. But definitely want to start getting the data on shooting the lower pre-shots!
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It’s all good data. Your testing has allowed us to see how she did with that preshot number that was close to 200. No worries.
 
How are the shots going? Things are going better on 1 unit :) I saw the low PMPS last night. I wish there had been some mid-cycle tests so we could see what was happening and not been so surprised at PMPS time. A +10 test would help with that. Was Willow eating yesterday during the cycle? What is your schedule like? Are you away from home all day and so unable to get a few tests during the cycle? It’s important to give small amounts of food during the cycle to help prevent steep drops and smooth the cycle in general. Usually I recommend snacks at +2, +4 and possibly even +6 as a starting point. People who are gone during the day usually buy an automatic feeder to dispense small amounts of low carb food during the day.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
How are the shots going? Things are going better on 1 unit :) I saw the low PMPS last night. I wish there had been some mid-cycle tests so we could see what was happening and not been so surprised at PMPS time. A +10 test would help with that. Was Willow eating yesterday during the cycle? What is your schedule like? Are you away from home all day and so unable to get a few tests during the cycle? It’s important to give small amounts of food during the cycle to help prevent steep drops and smooth the cycle in general. Usually I recommend snacks at +2, +4 and possibly even +6 as a starting point. People who are gone during the day usually buy an automatic feeder to dispense small amounts of low carb food during the day.
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Thank you so much for reaching out. Your input is so valuable and comforting.
I also wish I could've gotten some mid-cycle tests yesterday because I was not expecting that low number! I am a freelance photographer so my schedule is all over the place, but I'm usually able to be home a lot of the day. Yesterday I was not. I've been able to get good mid-day tests in the past but yes it would've certainly been more helpful yesterday! What I've been doing for food- she eats FF pate 2x/day when it's shot time. She unfortunately won't eat a lot of wet food at once. Maybe, like... 1/8 of a can. When I'm home, I typically try to feed her some more FF mid-day but I wasn't able to yesterday. She also eats Dr. Elsey's clean protein dry- I put 1/4 cup in her bowl in the morning after her shot and she grazes on it throughout the day. We do the same thing at night and she grazes overnight. The amount is usually perfect, where she runs out by 2 hours pre-shot. Maybe I could do the automatic feeder and split it up into smaller portions? She's always been a good grazer. I'd love to get her to switch over to wet LC completely, eventually.
 
We're still trying lots of different LC wet foods to see if there's one that she'll eat more of! Tiki Cat, Weruva, etc. I'm making sure I get LC ones that have been recommended on here. She loves having an Orijen freeze dried treat after ear pricks.
 
I’m really happy to see that she’s at least still in yellow at AMPS - even after the skipped shot. Good. Gradually, we will have enough data to find out if she can have a reduced dose when she’s lower than expected at shot time, but we work our way down to that.

It’s good that she has food to graze on. Normally, the snacks given in the first half of the cycle at just a teaspoon or two of LC wet food - so not very much. It takes time for our kitties to adjust to all these changes.
 
Oh, and about food…. at her age it would be good if she would eat lower phosphorus foods to help spare her kidneys. Diabetes is already hard on the kidneys, but we will hopefully soon get her better regulated. So the Weruva BFF pates are a good option. My cats like the Chicken Duck and Turkey Take a Chance and the Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. Here’s a list that I found very helpful— and it’s kept up to date. It has low carb / low phosphorus foods.

https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/CKD Diabetes Food List.pdf
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Oh, and about food…. at her age it would be good if she would eat lower phosphorus foods to help spare her kidneys. Diabetes is already hard on the kidneys, but we will hopefully soon get her better regulated. So the Weruva BFF pates are a good option. My cats like the Chicken Duck and Turkey Take a Chance and the Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. Here’s a list that I found very helpful— and it’s kept up to date. It has low carb / low phosphorus foods.

https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/CKD Diabetes Food List.pdf
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Thank you so much!! I have this page bookmarked and I'll try some of those lower phosphorous options :) we did already try the Weruva wx phos focused tilapia & tuna and she had some licks... she's a picky girl! Wondering, too, if I should try to order some of that FortiFlora to see if it makes the wet food more enticing for her?
 
Most cats do like the taste of Forti Flora. Some really go crazy for it. My cats do.

My cats also love to have Pure Bites Freeze Dried chicken treats ground up in the blender and sprinkled on their wet food (I call it magic chicken dust.) The Orijen ones are probably similar? Are they 100 percent meat?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Most cats do like the taste of Forti Flora. Some really go crazy for it. My cats do.

My cats also love to have Pure Bites Freeze Dried chicken treats ground up in the blender and sprinkled on their wet food (I call it magic chicken dust.) The Orijen ones are probably similar? Are they 100 percent meat?
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Magic chicken dust!! :cat: love that.
The Orijen ones are 99% meat. With the other 1% being the tocopherols/citric acid/rosemary extract. So I could try those on her wet food too and see! Right now she's into the Tundra variety.
 
She already hit blue. I hope you can get a +6 test so we can get close to her nadir. We don’t yet know exactly when she usually nadirs, but if you can get a +6 today and a +5 on another day and a +4 at another time, etc. we will pinpoint her typical nadir (hopefully she will be predictable!)
 
Most importantly, can you notice a difference in her demeanor now that she’s on the ProZinc? I think you said you could tell right away?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
She already hit blue. I hope you can get a +6 test so we can get close to her nadir. We don’t yet know exactly when she usually nadirs, but if you can get a +6 today and a +5 on another day and a +4 at another time, etc. we will pinpoint her typical nadir (hopefully she will be predictable!)
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I can definitely get more mid-day tests today! +6 for sure. I'm glad she hit blue already, too, especially with the skipped dose last night.
100% can tell a difference in her demeanor and yes, it was right away. It's wild how different she is on the ProZinc vs the Lantus. I know it's not a typical response so I'm so glad I listened to my gut and asked the vet for the switch! I can tell, too, that she is peeing much less and back to a normal amount. On the Lantus I felt like those clinical symptoms weren't improving.
 
I’m so glad we figured that out! I think it was likely the needle length. She’s a sensitive girl. I am glad you thought of it and thank goodness your vet listened to your instincts and was willing to switch.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I’m so glad we figured that out! I think it was likely the needle length. She’s a sensitive girl. I am glad you thought of it and thank goodness your vet listened to your instincts and was willing to switch.
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Thank you- me too! I'm so grateful to see her starting to feel better and her numbers improve. I just updated the spreadsheet with her +6 value- 188.
 
Nice blues today. If she had been under 200, I would recommend a reduced dose for that cycle — perhaps half a dose. Let’s se how she does tonight because that will give us an idea for the future.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy good morning! I hope you are doing well. Seems like Willow might be ready for a dose increase... thoughts? Today is her 7th day since switching to the ProZinc. With the time change tonight I was planning on just starting at the regular time tomorrow but don't know how much that will mess up BGs yet... She's had a couple of pink numbers at PS and it makes me feel so bad for her.
 
I also had planned to do a curve tomorrow for the vet since it's been 1 week but maybe doing a curve after the time change won't be as accurate?
 
Hello there. It looks like she will be safe to go to 1.2 units using the U-100 syringes and drawing it to the 3 line on those syringes. If you shoot at her regular time tomorrow morning that will be shooting one hour late so her BG may be higher than normal (or not who knows after those pink preshot readings.). If you can shoot half an hour late tonight (at 12.5 hours) and half an hour late tomorrow morning she would be on schedule again.
 
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Hello. I was just checking in on Willow. How is everything. She really dropped fast this morning in two hours. That’s faster than we like to see a drop on ProZinc because it can set them up for a bounce. She may be one of the cars who does better with a few more carbs (but still ten percent or under) at shot time. Did she eat well this morning? I know you said she’s picky, but it looks like a snack at +1 or so would help (or some food with a few more carbs .. maybe 6 or 8 percent?) I saw she was playful. That means she feels better. If also sounds like she’s not enjoying the higher numbers.
 
Hi @Suzanne & Darcy thank you so much for checking in!
She did drop very fast this morning... Do you think maybe her high number at AMPS is a bounce from her +5 124 yesterday?
I can tell the bounces are hard on her. This morning when she was high she was quite uncomfy. Now that her number has gone down, she is sleeping very hard.
She ate well this morning! What we do is some LC wet food before shot times. I fed her some Tiki Cat wet food this morning and then I always put 1/4 cup of Dr. Elsey's in her bowl and she'll eat some of that immediately (before insulin) and then graze on it over the next few hours. Even now, her bowl still has a few more kibble in it for when she wakes up. I'd love to eventually get her to do ONLY wet but we have not had luck with transitioning fully yet. I think the Dr. Elsey's is ~4% carb- maybe I could sprinkle in something a bit higher for shot times? I do have a bag of Tiki Cat Born Carnivore which is like 14%?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Hello. I was just checking in on Willow. How is everything. She really dropped fast this morning in two hours. That’s faster than we like to see a drop on ProZinc because it can set them up for a bounce. She may be one of the cars who does better with a few more carbs (but still ten percent or under) at shot time. Did she eat well this morning? I know you said she’s picky, but it looks like a snack at +1 or so would help (or some food with a few more carbs .. maybe 6 or 8 percent?) I saw she was playful. That means she feels better. If also sounds like she’s not enjoying the higher numbers.
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PMPS was high as well- 389 :/
 
Today is day 7 on the 1.2 dose. Unless she sees some green or much lower blues today then I would increase to 1.4 units. It’s nice she was energetic and talkative this morning :cat:
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
She’s doing better. Is she eating late in the cycle?
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She isn't eating between +10 and PMPS. Sometimes she begs for a snack at +8 or +9 and I'll feed a little LC wet food. Getting on a more regimented, consistent feeding schedule is definitely something I'd like to implement, though. My schedule is pretty flexible but there are days I can't always be home to hand feed her when she needs a snack. I've been doing some research on the auto feeders.
I do think switching the way she gets fed has given her some food anxiety because she went from free-feeding for 15 years to me limiting how much dry food I put in her bowl. So when I do drop the Dr. Elsey's in her bowl she gobbles it up desperately. And then towards the end of the cycle, as her BG is increasing, she's increasingly more hungry and YELLS at me constantly haha. If I were to get an automatic feeder, are the suggested snack times +2, +4, +6? I do feel like she acts better with a snack later in the cycle, though, too.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
She’s doing better. Is she eating late in the cycle?
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I feel like her numbers are pretty much staying the same throughout the dose increases- nadirs are pretty similar and high pre-shots... is that normal until we find that "breakthrough" dose? Or maybe it will just take time for her body to really regulate?
 
@Suzanne & Darcy I was also curious- is it okay to give Willow Zobaline as a preventative? She isn't walking on her hocks, but I have noticed some weakness. Mostly just back legs sliding a bit from under her. But she's still jumping up on couch/bed/chairs just fine.
 
Kate & Willow said:
I feel like her numbers are pretty much staying the same throughout the dose increases- nadirs are pretty similar and high pre-shots... is that normal until we find that "breakthrough" dose? Or maybe it will just take time for her body to really regulate?
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I also didn’t see a dramatic difference in her numbers, but I see slight progress. I would plan to increase again after 14 cycles on 1.4. With some cats, you finally get to a breakthrough dose where you see better numbers. I certainly would like to see the preshot numbers come down.
 
Kate & Willow said:
@Suzanne & Darcy I was also curious- is it okay to give Willow Zobaline as a preventative? She isn't walking on her hocks, but I have noticed some weakness. Mostly just back legs sliding a bit from under her. But she's still jumping up on couch/bed/chairs just fine.
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Yes. It’s perfectly fine to give Zobaline to her since it’s just methylcobalamin which is a B vitamin and folate (another B.) I have given it to my other (not diabetic) cats as well.
 
Kate & Willow said:
She isn't eating between +10 and PMPS. Sometimes she begs for a snack at +8 or +9 and I'll feed a little LC wet food. Getting on a more regimented, consistent feeding schedule is definitely something I'd like to implement, though. My schedule is pretty flexible but there are days I can't always be home to hand feed her when she needs a snack. I've been doing some research on the auto feeders.
I do think switching the way she gets fed has given her some food anxiety because she went from free-feeding for 15 years to me limiting how much dry food I put in her bowl. So when I do drop the Dr. Elsey's in her bowl she gobbles it up desperately. And then towards the end of the cycle, as her BG is increasing, she's increasingly more hungry and YELLS at me constantly haha. If I were to get an automatic feeder, are the suggested snack times +2, +4, +6? I do feel like she acts better with a snack later in the cycle, though, too.
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Can you get a +6 today? Or is it too late already?
If she is really frantic for food at +8 or 9, I would go ahead and give her some low carb wet food at that time - a small amount to tide her over until dinner hopefully. I would give her the Dr. Elsey’s earlier in the cycle at the +2 or +4 snack. I have sometimes seen Dr. Elsey’s raise BG a bit in some cats (even though it’s only 4 percent.) I don’t notice it necessarily in Willow, but then I don’t know exactly when she’s getting it.

Edited to add: if you make note of what she gets for snacks and when she gets them, it will help us to see how it affects her BG.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Can you get a +6 today? Or is it too late already?
If she is really frantic for food at +8 or 9, I would go ahead and give her some low carb wet food at that time - a small amount to tide her over until dinner hopefully. I would give her the Dr. Elsey’s earlier in the cycle at the +2 or +4 snack. I have sometimes seen Dr. Elsey’s raise BG a bit in some cats (even though it’s only 4 percent.) I don’t notice it necessarily in Willow, but then I don’t know exactly when she’s getting it.

Edited to add: if you make note of what she gets for snacks and when she gets them, it will help us to see how it affects her BG.
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Thank you for all of this! I wasn't able to get anything past a +4 today because I was not at home. Her PMPS was pretty high- she just got her PM shot. I can get a +6 tomorrow, though, for sure! With the Dr. Elsey's I can definitely concentrate that to the first half of the cycle and do only LC wet in the last half. And I can definitely start noting that on her SS!
 
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