New sugar momma with diabetic cat who has swollen face

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I wouldn't give her the N without her eating...you could be fighting low numbers.

I don't k ow, Laura....from your descriptions, it does sound like she is suffering. Starving is no way to go. Have you tried baby foods with nothing but the meat and/or just water...no broth, no cornstarch, no onion or garlic?

Of course, you know her best and none of us can see her but your descriptions break my heart.
 
oh - the third vet's admin asst (i don't know how this place has these things set up since they're mobile, i think the admin office is off site somewhere) called and told me that based on the fruc levels she IS diabetic (strange how two docs can be so different about whether she is diabetic or not, huh?). I asked her to ask the doc to call the insulin into the cvs pharmacy. it is from the THIRD vet that I got a copy of the fruc test which the humane society doc took. god only knows when I'll get the hard copy of the fruc test from the humane society..
 
she seems to like fage yogurt...sometimes she'll eat a little duck. she has only eaten half of one of those small cans today, and with great effort. what is the least amount of food you can give and administer insulin? i hope she can last in time for the app stimulant script...
 
When the glucose is high (over 300 mg/dL on a human glucometer), there may be no appetite, especially if fat is being broken down for calories. Plus, the cat may not feel very well. Giving a token dose (0.25 - 0.5 units) of insulin may drop the glucose enough for it to trigger some hunger. Since you are testing, you can monitor how much of a drop you get, as well as behavior, to see how it is working.

Fat breakdown generates ketones. Too many ketones may result in diabetic ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal complication of diabetes and expensive to treat. Also, the fat goes to the liver to be processed; if too much fat goes to the liver at once, the cat may develop a condition called hepatic lipidosis (basically fat in the liver), which disrupts normal digestion. That, too, can be potentially fatal and expensive to treat. If the cat has not eaten in 2 or more days, the risk of hepatic lipidosis increases.
 
BJM said:
When the glucose is high (over 300 mg/dL on a human glucometer), there may be no appetite, especially if fat is being broken down for calories. Plus, the cat may not feel very well. Giving a token dose (0.25 - 0.5 units) of insulin may drop the glucose enough for it to trigger some hunger. Since you are testing, you can monitor how much of a drop you get, as well as behavior, to see how it is working.

Fat breakdown generates ketones. Too many ketones may result in diabetic ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal complication of diabetes and expensive to treat. Also, the fat goes to the liver to be processed; if too much fat goes to the liver at once, the cat may develop a condition called hepatic lipidosis (basically fat in the liver), which disrupts normal digestion. That, too, can be potentially fatal and expensive to treat. If the cat has not eaten in 2 or more days, the risk of hepatic lipidosis increases.
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can i give a drop of insulin (.5 or less) to her on an empty stomach? she just won't eat...syringe feeding is not working...she will take a couple of licks of fage yogurt, that's it. i try to put the yogurt around some food but she won't take it.

it's sad coz when she hears the can open, she perks up and she stays in the kitchen area where I feed her, but she won't eat ANYTHING i give her..
 
As long as you are monitoring the levels and they are high, yes.

The insulin goes into the blood stream, not the stomach.
 
skinky44 said:
can i give a drop of insulin (.5 or less) to her on an empty stomach? she just won't eat...syringe feeding is not working...she will take a couple of licks of fage yogurt, that's it. i try to put the yogurt around some food but she won't take it.

it's sad coz when she hears the can open, she perks up and she stays in the kitchen area where I feed her, but she won't eat ANYTHING i give her..
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I've just been reading through Skinky's thread. I can't suggest much, but my cat had major problems with appetite loss during a pancreatitis flare. It's agony to go through, and my heart goes out to you. :bighug:

I note that Skinky still seems interested in food, perking up when she hears the can open but she just doesn't want the food. Is she showing any symptoms of nausea, by any chance (e.g. pulling faces or lip licking after food, licking some food then leaving it - there's a good symptom checker from Tanya's Site here). If she is then Cerenia or GENERIC ondansetron (for price - Zofran (branded version) is obscenely expensive) alongside the appy stimulant can really help. Have you managed to get the appy stimulant yet? If not, then if possible raise merry hell till you get one. The appy stimulant made an immediate difference for Saoirse - she started eating very shortly after the first dose was adminisitered. A tiny, tiny dose of Cyproheptadine was enough to get her eating for several hours. If Skinky is queasy, then anti-nausea meds would help both with symptoms and also with prevention of food aversions.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe because of her sinuses she can't smell/taste the food properly. Things that can help are to put something pungent on the food (e.g. tuna water, parmesan cheese, Fortiflora) and / or to warm the food up a bit so that it releases more aroma. I'm sorry if I'm suggesting things you've already tried. I just want so badly to try to do something to help you and Skinky.

I don't have enough experience to suggest anything about insulin dosages.

I hope that you can get Skinky to start eating very soon. In addition to providing nourishment, it will make insulin treatment more straightforward. I'm going to keep you both foremost in my prayers. ((((Skinky and Mom))))
 
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skinky44 said:
what is considered high when administering on an empty stomach?
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If she's over 300 mg/dL, she's above the renal threshold and then some. I'd give at least a token dose to get it down. Some vets, when they have you fast a diabetic, ask you to give half the normal dose of insulin.
 
Critter Mom said:
I've just been reading through Skinky's thread. I can't suggest much, but my cat had major problems with appetite loss during a pancreatitis flare. It's agony to go through, and my heart goes out to you. :bighug:

I note that Skinky still seems interested in food, perking up when she hears the can open but she just doesn't want the food. Is she showing any symptoms of nausea, by any chance (e.g. pulling faces or lip licking after food, licking some food then leaving it - there's a good symptom checker from Tanya's Site here). If she is then Cerenia or GENERIC ondansetron (for price - Zofran (branded version) is obscenely expensive) alongside the appy stimulant can really help. Have you managed to get the appy stimulant yet? If not, then if possible raise merry hell till you get one. The appy stimulant made an immediate difference for Saoirse - she started eating very shortly after the first dose was adminisitered. A tiny, tiny dose of Cyproheptadine was enough to get her eating for several hours. If Skinky is queasy, then anti-nausea meds would help both with symptoms and also with prevention of food aversions.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe because of her sinuses she can't smell/taste the food properly. Things that can help are to put something pungent on the food (e.g. tuna water, parmesan cheese, Fortiflora) and / or to warm the food up a bit so that it releases more aroma. I'm sorry if I'm suggesting things you've already tried. I just want so badly to try to do something to help you and Skinky.

I don't have enough experience to suggest anything about insulin dosages.

I hope that you can get Skinky to start eating very soon. In addition to providing nourishment, it will make insulin treatment more straightforward. I'm going to keep you both foremost in my prayers. ((((Skinky and Mom))))
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Hi critter mom. Nope, no nausea. no app stim yet, hopefully script comes in the mail. dealing with humane society of nyc and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get them on the phone. i left a psycho screaming message the other day. it is not unusual to be on hold for 20 minutes just until you get the front desk person. i'm not very mobile, am recovering from a leg surgery, so i have to choose wisely my excursions. anyhow, it probably is a nasal tumor. it seemed to drain a little today and i have her in the "kitty sauna" (the bathroom with hot water going) to try to loosen the crud under her nostril. it seems liek the bridge of her nostril is draining too. i don't know if this is good or not. it is tinged with blood. i got some syringe food into her last night and earlier today. how many syringes does she need? so little goes into these tubes and my goodness does she hate it.

hopefully the app stim comes today. but I still don't know if i'm being cruel and selfish by not bringing her in for a permanent sleep.
 
5cc's is a teaspoon so keep it going, she needs as many teaspoons as possible. It's new to her, she'll do better the more you feed her that way. Sometimes it would help KT start eating by himself.

HUGS
 
BJM said:
If she's over 300 mg/dL, she's above the renal threshold and then some. I'd give at least a token dose to get it down. Some vets, when they have you fast a diabetic, ask you to give half the normal dose of insulin.
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hi, well i don't know. humane society director said he is STILL not convinced she is diabetic. did i post the fruc results? he still thinks that she might be elevated due to the infection/cancer.
2nd and 3rd vet thinks she is diabetic. 3rd vet said insulin 1 unit every 24 hours after she gets a half can into her (impossible) and if she tests below 250, NO insulin.
When I called his manager for some scripts the manager reviewed her records and said i must've misunderstood him, that she should STILL get insulin EVEN if she is below 250. My head spins.
Squeaky and KT said:
5cc's is a teaspoon so keep it going, she needs as many teaspoons as possible. It's new to her, she'll do better the more you feed her that way. Sometimes it would help KT start eating by himself.

HUGS
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Thank you yes i've been told that might kickstart her appetite. hoping for the best! thanks!!
 
My vet had me fast a cat pre-dental and give 1/2 of the regular insulin dose, so it can be safe to do when he isn't eating (much). His glucose was up over 200 mg/dL and he was on Lantus at the time.
 
Hi Skinky's mom,

I've been praying for you both all day. I'm very sorry to hear the run-around that you're getting from the humane society: you have more than enough to contend with caring for your little one without all that on top. I hope the appy stimulant Rx comes today, too. I'm relieved to read that you managed to get Skinky to eat a little bit for you last night and this morning. Keeping fingers and paws crossed that it may kick-start her appetite. I have no experience with things like the nasal draining, but maybe the reduction in pressure might make Skinky feel a bit better? I really hope so. I'll continue to keep you both in my prayers. Sending healing vibes to your little one across the waves, (((Skinky))) and a hug for you. :bighug: I've just read Skinky's story on your link above. I see she's a fighter. :)
 
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I wonder if you also hold warm compresses to her nose area if that would help?

If you can find any Iams Max Calorie food, it is good for assist feeding and has tons of calories and is low carb. It is prescription but maybe vet 2 0r 3 could write the script and you could ask on doc them about the appy stimulant?

Here is a really good video on how to assist feed a cst:

 
Good morning, Skinky's mom. Checking in to see how you're both doing. Did your girl manage to eat a little for you? Did the appy stimulant get to you yet? I really hope so. It helps their recovery so much when they manage to get some food into them.

Skinky is so brave, and she has really touched my heart. Praying for you both.

(((Skinky and Mom)))
 
hi critter mom,
I FINALLY got the app stim today. After several phone calls I demanded that they call the script into the pharmacy. I was actually in tears when i went to the pharmacy and they said they didn't have it and i called the inhumane society (it's only the one in nyc which is inhumane) and they insisted they called it in and then put me on hold for close to 15 minutes...i finally asked AGAIN at the cvs pharmacy and it WAS called in, under Skinky's name. Skinky Cowan. Ok. Would've been nice is someone would've mentioned that so I wouldn't have literally bawled my eyes out in the store. SO...administered half pill of the cyprohep pill....she seems to confused, like she wants food, but hasn't eaten yet. she DID drink a little water, which was great, because she stopped that as well. I got one syringe into ther this morning, which as you know, isn't a lot. about 2 teaspoons. last night I got 4 syringes into her, but between the syringes, the B checking, the IV, the four pills, i think she hates me. I am going to stop monitoring the diabetes for a while, all of the poking and probing and sticking is really upsetting her. Last night she started having a lot of saliva come out of her after i administered the SubQ. She is very weak, but still holding on. I just hope this app stim works and then i can evaluate other issues. it's only been about an hour or so. I will keep you all posted! :) Thx critter mom, she really is such a super sweet kitty. Jenn says she is surprised at how scrappy skinky is.


So...
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I wonder if you also hold warm compresses to her nose area if that would help?

If you can find any Iams Max Calorie food, it is good for assist feeding and has tons of calories and is low carb. It is prescription but maybe vet 2 0r 3 could write the script and you could ask on doc them about the appy stimulant?

Here is a really good video on how to assist feed a cst:

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Hi Marje, that is a great video, I think I had seen that. I watched a few on Youtube. all i can say, is where do they find these cats? as weak as my girl is, she can still manage to pull a houdini out of the towel. and i clip it with binder clippings too. I will see if my local petsmart has that Iams. Any one have any idea about how long i should give this pill before i should maybe switch to the other one? Or make a different decision about her. I can't keep watching her waste away...
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I wonder if you also hold warm compresses to her nose area if that would help?

If you can find any Iams Max Calorie food, it is good for assist feeding and has tons of calories and is low carb. It is prescription but maybe vet 2 0r 3 could write the script and you could ask on doc them about the appy stimulant?

Here is a really good video on how to assist feed a cst:

Click to expand...
Oh marje - yes - I put her in the kitty sauna (bathroom w/ hot water running) for a a little while each day. i put vaseline along the crunches around her nose and the steam helps to loosen them up. her nose is very sensitive, but i'm hoping if i can keep the crunchies away it will less inhibit her smell and in turn help her appetite. as she allows it, I do try to place warm compresses to her nose, but it is quite sensitive for her..
 
Hi Skinky's Mom,

I am very relieved to hear that you finally got the appy stimulant. I'm hacked off that you had to go through the ringer to get it for her. Well done you for getting round the human obstacle course. And well done Skinky for eating and drinking a little bit for your mommy!

Cypro is relatively gentle in its action but it can cause sedation at quite low doses (it's an antihistamine), so Skinky might get a bit groggy. With Saoirse, the cypro usually started to work within 1-2 hours (her weight's between 9-10lb, tablets were 4mg and about 1/8 of a tablet was the dose she usually needed, sometimes even less). Depending on how she was doing on a particular day, the effects could last anywhere from 8 to 24+ hours. In consultation with my vet, we decided that ad hoc dosing would work for her. I used to log the time I gave her the dose and wait for her appetite to peter out. If that time was greater than 8 hours, I'd give her the next dose. If it was less than 8 hours since the previous dose, I'd wait until 8 hours elapsed and then give the next dose.

I know it can be really tough having to poke, prod and pill our little ones round the clock - on both kitty and caregiver - but horrible as it is, it can work wonders. At one stage Saoirse was on Lantus/Pro-Kolin/Famotidine/Ondansetron/Cyproheptadine/Stomorygyl (2 tablets) - all BID, plus BG testing and once an hour microfeeds. Several weeks of diarrhoea and loose stools didn't help at all. She was very poorly before the appy stimulant and anti-nausea med started helping and wasn't a happy kitty at all with getting the shed load of meds , but I gritted my teeth, apologised to her (a lot), gave her lots of reassurance and praise and battled it out. It was that or lose her. Thankfully she started to rally once her food and fluid intake improved. Slowly but surely she improved and a few weeks later you wouldn't believe she' been so unwell. (Member Tisha's Person went through similar with her little one, and Tisha recovered really well, too, after starting to eat again.) Sometimes being a kitty mom is really tough, but it's always worthwhile. :) Give the cypro a while to help her get back to regular eating (even if you need to assist at times). It can take a few days to find the right dose. It's amazing the difference it can make when they start getting some nutritients back on board. :)

I note that Skinky hadn't been drinking much before getting her cypro today. That's great news. Are you still giving Skinky sub-q fluids? And has the swelling gone down any after her kitty sauna yesterday?

(((Skinky and Mom)))


ETA: Improved nutritional support will hopefully stabilise Skinky and help her build herself up again while you bottom out a way to help treat the swelling. Please give some very, very gentle fusses to your plucky girl from me. You'll both stay in my prayers.
 
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skinky44 said:
... her nose is very sensitive, but i'm hoping if i can keep the crunchies away it will less inhibit her smell and in turn help her appetite.
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I'm glad you mentioned the above. Offline, I've been wondering whether pain from the pressure of the fluids in the swollen area is a factor in Skinky's reluctance to eat? I had a dental abscess once and that hurt like there was no tomorrow before it was drained. I wasn't interested in food, either.
 
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Hi Skinky's Mom,
I've been following your posts for several days and just wanted to tell you what a good job you are doing under the most difficult circumstances.
I no longer live in NYC, but I thought you might appreciate a list of vet practices and clinics in the city that are highly recommended by Dr. Mark E. Peterson, the foremost expert on feline endocrinology and a pioneer in feline diabetes. I realize that hyperthyroidism is not one of your concerns, and you should know that Dr. Peterson is a specialist and I don't think he has a general vet practice. But I was most impressed with him when we brought our previous diabetic cat, Stu, to him to have him evaluated for the radio-iodine hyperT procedure. This link is from Dr. Peterson's web page. You might consider making an appointment with one of the vet practices listed. I would trust any vet practice that Dr. Peterson recommended.
http://www.animalendocrine.com/about-the-clinic/recommended-veterinarians/
When we lived in Brooklyn we took Stu to Animal-Kind in Park Slope (on the list).
Good luck. I hope you can find a vet who will be able to help Skinky.

Ella & Rusty
 
Hello Aine, Ella and Marje,

Ella: Thank you for the list! It helps to narrow potential new vets down. I don't think I'll be engaging with a new one unless I can see some type of improvement with my girl. And I'm not sure, if she doesn't make it, if I ever want another pet again. I'll probably feel differently at one point. In any event I DO appreciate the list! :)

I'm distressed over Skinky's reaction to the drug so far. The pills are 4 mg, and 'm to give her 1/2 pill twice a day. I gave her half around 6 pm EST, so about 5 1/2 hours ago. She DID take a few sips of water, but that was it. She seems VERY interested in food, but just won't eat it. It kills me because she keeps hanging out in the feeding area, following me when i'm at the fridge. but she won't eat. and then she cries, which she wasn't doing before. i think she cries because she wants to eat, but i don't know why she won't. again, fage, she'll eat a couple of licks of, but nothing else, even if I cover some salmon pate with the fage. But why is she crying like she wants to eat? i try spoon feeding her, putting some on my finger. i have small little plates with different varieties scattered about. i bring food to the bed, to the chair, keep it in the regular place. she has had a total of about 2 1/2 syringes today. it's just not enough to stave off lipodis/liver failure. i cuddle with her, because i still think she is a little traumatized from all the poking/prodding from yesterday. I keep thinking she's just not going to last another day if she doesn't really chow down...or she will have irreversible damage (if she doesn't already) if she doesn't start eating soon. Aine, as you say, my hope has been that once she starts eating I can really oomph up the food with vitamins etc. I already put llysine and b12 in the syringes. Now when I syringe feed her she is grinding her teeth. She is still walking fine, mostly (unbelievably!) She went into the hallway of the apt complex where i live and was very curious and i was impressed at how quickly she was moving given her absent nutritional intake.

As for the nose...all three vets seem to think that she has nasal cancer. the swelling has not subsided. I do think it's affecting her appetite. she turns her head to the side, to the good nostril when i'm holding a morsel in front of her and you can hear her audibly inhale the food. but she actually turns her head the other way. have tried salmon, duck, mixed grill. these are all dishes she once liked - she was NEVER picky before.

Is she telling me that she has had enough and wants to leave? It seems that with most people this app stim works pretty quickly...I think this is the best i'm going to get from it from here..
 
From what you've posted above, it sounds like the cypro could be working OK because she's looking for food and vocalising. Saoirse normally has a silent miaow, but she got very vocal - unprecedentedly so - when she was waiting to be fed when the cypro was active in her system. Skinky's behaviour sounds very similar. From what you write it sounds like her appetite has picked up with the cypro but she's still having difficulty with the food itself. I really feel for you because I was frantic when Saoirse wouldn't / couldn't eat (I had previously lost a cat to HL and inadequate veterinary care). I note that Skinky's trying to smell the food with her good nostril. Have you tried warming the food a little? Or maybe putting something strong-smelling into it - something like parmesan or the water from a can of human tuna? Maybe you could try watering down some of the food - maybe put it in a food processor or blender if you have one to make it a bit soupy and then sprinkle some parmesan or add some tuna water to it. I didn't get to the syringe feeding stage with Saoirse, but when she was at her worst before getting the cypro the only way I could get any food into her was to keep dipping my fingers into some soupy food and letting her lick it off my fingers a tiny bit at a time. The other option would be to go with something really bland. That helped Saoirse, but she was nauseated at the time. Basically I poached chicken breast in some water, then blitzed up the chicken breast with some of the poaching broth to make a food with a soupy consistency and let her lick that off my fingers initially.

Is there any chance of you being able to speak with one of the better vets you've been seeing about Skinky to see if the problem might be pain (or nausea maybe?), and whether they could give Skinky something to ease the pain and help her to eat something?

I wish there was something more I could do to help you both. I hope that other FDMB members will be able to come up with further suggestions for you.

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers. (((Skinky and Mom)))
 
Or maybe ask the vet about more antibiotics? In your opening post you mentioned that Convenia had helped before to reduce the nasal swelling?
 
I've posted a link to this thread on the main FDMB Health board. I am hoping that other members with experience of syringe feeding, etc., might be able to offer more and better suggestions about how to help Skinky to eat.
 
Hi Critter Mom,
Or Aine. :)

I tried a lot of that...i have not tried parm cheese nor have i boiled chicken. you know i did try twice to get baby food, specifically chicken in broth. freaking had everything but. all this exotic stuff but not chicken and broth.

I'm on my way out to drug store to either get a can of tuna or a small fancy feast for her. I noticed her bad nostril had some snot coming out of it - i interpret as a good sign, so i just finished giving her another sauna and putting vaseline around the blocked nose and trying to get the crusties out. perhaps i'm deluding myself. i just feel that if i can get her to eat and then get the nose to drain....but chances are she does have the nasal cancer.

as for the vets. don't get me started. the two good ones are at this vet mobile, but physically it's a little tough for me to get there. they will give me some prednisone for her w/o a wait if i schlep up there tomorrow. i do not want to take her in to see them again, although I do think they are decent. there is no waiting area and last time i had to wait outside for three hours - quite cold. i just feel in her condition this is a little harsh for her. the inhumane society, is very difficult. apparently i can only deal with the doctor i've been dealing with, and he won't be in until monday. i might have mentioned that even another doctor could not give me skinky's fructosamine results. and they don't take walk ins. other vets are 90 to 195 just for a walk in and i've actually spent about 700 so far...i'm certain they will want to do additional diagnostics, perhaps understandably. One person (including the initial vet) suggested it might be fungus related. she developed a "hot spot" on her chin. I put a small amount of antifungal cream on her nose pores and on the hotspot. the vet mobile is not awful, it's just a little unusual. the man who owns or who established it IS fairly accessible (heck i've gotten the med documents for skinky that the inhumane society was able to fax to another vet (but NOT her mom) from THEM and not from the Inhuman Society). Anyhow, the vet mobile owner gives some advice about issues and meds...although he is not a doc. still they have been better than the IS.

One tidbit I got from the FB feline diabetes board is that her stomach might be upset. she IS smacking her lips, and people have suggested that she might be nautious...so i have given her the recommended dose of peptic AC. I gave her a pain med as well. so now, with her nose cleared and hopefully with the peptic working, i'm off to try another , diff. type of cat food.

poor thing. i don't know what more i can do for her. if she eats tonight, i will update. else I might eventually sleep...

thank you for your concern. :)
 
Critter Mom said:
I've posted a link to this thread on the main FDMB Health board. I am hoping that other members with experience of syringe feeding, etc., might be able to offer more and better suggestions about how to help Skinky to eat.
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thank you. i'm concerned about her grinding her teeth. i'm also wondering if this is psychological. either from her being fed up and ticked off...or, they say if it is nasal cancer, that eventually it travels to the brain..

the grinding is disturbing. it continues even after i've removed the syringe for a bit..

i got a b12 shot for her last week and that did boost her appetite immediately. i wonder if i can duplicate that somehow myself, otc? in her condition, i am not going to wait outside in the cold for the van for a few hours. she wouldn't be able to handle it.
 
I wish you had better veterinary support. :( A stint out in the cold like that wouldn't be good for either of you. (((Skinky's Mom)))

I mentioned the nausea because Skinky had been sniffing food and turning away from it, and also licking some food and then stopping. Here's a good symptom checker for nausea from Tanya's site. It also goes through treatments. Saoirse needed both the generic ondansetron for nausea and the cypro to get her eating properly. Neither of them worked as well on their own for her. It does say on Tanya's site that slippery elm can help with nausea symptoms but I have no experience with it. From what I've read about it, you do need to give other meds at a different time because the slippery elm can affect absorption of other medicines.

@Marje and Gracie - do you know whether slippery elm might help Skinky if she's nauseated? If it could, where might Skinky's mom be able to get some? I am thinking it could be a help if it proved difficult to secure an Rx for anti-nausea meds for Skinky.
 
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Over on the pancreatitis yahoo group the advice is that you should not give an appetite stimulant without anti nausea medication as it can great aversions to food. From the symptoms you describe it sounds just like my cat remi when he was nauseous. The lip smacking and walking away from food,etc. she may want to eat but then feels sick when you give it to her.

My advice would be to speak to your vet about ondansetron or cerenia to add in with the other medication. If you describe what is happening I am sure they will understand.
 
Has Skinky managed to poop yet? You mentioned earlier that she had been constipated. That can cause tummy upsets as well.
 
she hasn't pooped today. I think it was yesterday that she had a small poop. a week or two ago vet #1 said she had air in her stomach.

I just got some beef fancy feast, something new for her, and she comes out all alert when i open the can...but then nothing. I syringed some into her, i'm trying to do the syringing more frequently and with a little less food. i don't know if i can get the ondansetron or cerenia tomorrow from the vet mobile or not. they can be limited with what they carry. else i won't be able to get a script for it till Monday if i'm very lucky...and it's just too long for her to go without it. if this is common knowledge, again, i'm upset that the director from the HS didn't suggest it. argh. i know her creatine levels are not very high, 1.3. for the rest of the nausea causes, could be several. antibiotics, sub Qs, constipation..
 
@Sarah, have you got any tips on giving fluids via syringe? I know you've posted about them before but I can't remember the technique you use. Also, what's the name of the easily digestible food that you used to give Remi (the one you mix up with water IIRC)?
 
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I can really relate to how frustrated you are with the lack of proper veterinary support - I've had similar experiences and I felt angry and powerless. Not good. :(

It might be a good idea to log the times that she poops and how much she produces so you can keep track. I did that with Saoirse. It was very helpful to have some idea of what was going on with her digestive transit.

The more you describe how Skinky is behaving, the more it sounds like nausea. I found it helped Saoirse to feed her tiny amounts very often. I started her on the poached chicken at our vet's suggestion because it is bland and easy to digest. (We have a good vet, thank goodness). I either chopped the cooked chicken up finely or minced it in a food processor and gave her about a tablespoonful of meat with 1 tbsp broth and 1 tbsp water every hour or so. It was the only thing she'd touch for me at the time.

Is there anywhere that you could get freeze-dried treats? There were times when Saoirse just wouldn't eat anything, but she would take a few of those treats. Lots of cats find them really tempting. I call them Kitty Saltines, because Saoirse could always tolerate them even when she was very queasy. I'm wondering whether, if you got some, you might be able to crush some up or blitz them in a processor or blender so that Skinky could just lick them and swallow them - no need to chew - and then follow up by giving her a good drink of water from her syringe to help wash them down? It might be a way to keep getting some calories on board for the time being.
 
I must admit I found syringe feeding quite hard. You need to get it very liquid and very smooth otherwise it just clogs up the syringe. I found it best not to use remi's normal food and only really had success when I switched to a convalescence food that was very bland in flavour and very smooth.

I used royal canin convalescence instant support sachets that are designed for feeding tubes. It's a powder that you mix up with warm water. It looks and smells like milk. However I used this before remi had diabetes and thus I have no idea how much sugar it has in it but would guess a fair bit.

Here is the link to a place in the uk that sells it so not sure about the US but again not the best for a diabetic cat. There are other cat foods that are tinned that are designed for convalescence that may be smoother

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/royal-canin-...n-convalescence-support-instant-sachets-p-254

But I really feel it will become a lot easier if you can get hold of the ondansetron.

There is a yahoo assisted feline support group. Maybe join that?
 
Thanks for the extra info, Sarah. :)

I wonder if commercial cat milk might be another temporary food possibility (possibly lots of carbs but food is food and it would be available without an Rx - we could help you with the carb calculations. Pet stores might have powdered kitten milk formula.
 
@skinky44 I guess they didn't think she was nauseous and so didn't think it would be a problem to stimulate the appetite but in my experience nausea often accompanies inappetence
 
What Sarah says above was borne out in my experience with Saoirse. She stopped needing the appy stimulant much sooner than she stopped needing the anti-nausea med (generic ondansetron).
 
Critter Mom said:
Thanks for the extra info, Sarah. :)
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Hi Aine :)That's okay. What I am not sure is at what point it is okay to feed a high carb food. I guess it is better for a cat to eat something because then at least you can administer some insulin to being down the numbers. What you want to avoid is infection, not enough calories and not enough insulin.

@skinky44 Just to add Water can also really help with nausea. I would carefully syringe feed water. Aim for one side of the mouth to another. Go slowly, the same as when syringe feeding food, never aim straight down the throat.
 
honestly, i'm amazed she has gotten this far. she is NOT hobbling or anything like that...she REALLY wants to eat now. but she won't. or drink. i've been stroking her for quite some time and she finally took a couple of licks of water. tomorrow a larger syringe is coming from amazon. I will fill that one with water if she makes it through the night. that's how it has been for awhile.

I am beginning to think that she might have a fungal issue. someone sent me something about
Cryptococcosis http://www.merckmanuals.com/petheal...ystems_of_cats/fungal_infections_in_cats.html "In cats, upper respiratory signs following infection of the nasal cavity are most common. The signs often include sneezing, bloody nasal discharge, polyp-like mass(es) in the nostril, and a firm swelling under the skin and over the bridge of the nose. Areas of small raised bumps and nodules may affect the skin; these may feel soft (liquid filled) or firm. These areas may ulcerate, leaving a raw surface. Neurologic signs associated with cryptococcosis of the central nervous system include depression, changes in temperament, seizures, circling, slight paralysis, and blindness. Eye abnormalities may also develop."

I think this seems very accurate with her. it started with her sneezing. of course cat nasal cancer said the same thing too.

i just don't know if/when i can get the necessary drugs to treat. and of course, maybe i'm wrong too.

she developed a hot spot under her chin too, which seemed sudden. and i wonder if that is related to a fungal issue. i applied a little naftin scream to her nose. it seemed to help the lower portion of her nose...although the 'tumor' seems to have expanded upward toward the eye.

she is developing some weird behavioral things too. my loveseat is RIGHT next to my bed (you know, manhattan studio, tight spaces). I'm on the loveseat now and she is on the bed, sitting on her hind legs, basically with her back to me. it's an odd thing for her to do.
 
I don't think slippery elm will help with nausea. It's great for a lot of things and is a good nutritive but it's better for her to have food with calories.

Ondansetron is a human drug and has to be obtained through a pharmacy with a script. Cerenia csn be obtained from the vet, usually, as it is a drug originally made for motion sickness in dogs. However, not all vets carry it.

I also don't think either drug is widely used in veterinary practice......the cerenia more than the ondansetron so the inhumane vet might not be aware of them. My vet, who is excellent, was not aware ondansetron could be used in csts for nausea.

I wonder if the mobile vet can subscribe an anti fungal? I'm assuming she is an indoor cat so how could she be exposed to a fungus? I know you live in NYC and there are a lot of pigeons...do you have your windows open where she could inhale spores from pigeon poo?
 
Can you talk to one of your vets about what you found out about Cryptococcosis? Maybe they can call in a prescription to help with that.

 
Marje and Gracie said:
I don't think slippery elm will help with nausea. It's great for a lot of things and is a good nutritive but it's better for her to have food with calories.
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I was surprised to read that you don't think slippery elm will help: Tanya's site recommends it as a possible first line treatment for nausea. I thought that it might possibly help ease Skinky's digestive tract enough to help her get some actual food down (i.e. not use it as an alternative to 'food' food), especially as Skinky's mom might not be able to get an Rx for ondansetron or Cerenia till next week and the slippery elm might be an accessible treatment to tide Skinky over until an Rx med could be obtained.
 
Tanya's site recommends it as a possible first line treatment for nausea
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Tanya's recommends SEB for stomach acid and the accompanying symptoms (including nausea and vomiting). There's a difference. The SEB can be really good at coating the stomach to prevent stomach acid in a cat that is in early CKD. But that's why I said I "don't think" and not that it won't work. ECID....I've used it for nausea in my cats and it hasn't worked. The bigger issue, though, is getting it into her. Although it is tasteless, if Laura has to syringe it, some cats don't care for the consistency of it. I think you are right that if Laura cannot get ondansetron, then it's worth a try.

My bigger concern is also that if she's having a difficult time getting her to eat anything at all, it might be better for her to get calories from food, if at all possible, and not fill her tiny stomach with SEB; I guess it's just a gamble either way.......
 
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