New member - Mia - Lethargic - Ketones present

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MonicaT

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Hi!

My little Mia (turning 10 in February) was diagnosed with diabetes 2 days ago. It started out with her eating more than usual 1 1/2 weeks ago, followed by increased thirst and more pee in the litter. That then switched over to eating as normal, and then she stopped eating. This happened within just a couple of days.

We took her to the vet the first time Tuesday this week (1st October). At this point she was still eating, but vey lethargic. Took blood tests without fasting:

MCHC was high - 43.9 g/dL
RDW was high - 33.7%
RETIC was high - 105.3 K/uL
EOS was high - 2.05 K/uL
GLU was high - 306 mg/dL
FRU was high - 407 umol/L
GLOB was high - 5.3 g/dL
TT4 was on the lower end - 0.9 ug/dL

Vet mentioned the possibility of diabetes due to the GLU and FRU results, but sent us back home, was told to change diet to better carbs and come back in 2 weeks after fasting her for 8 hours to redo the blood tests. Bought Royal Canin wet food pouches sterilized and Hills wet food pouches sterilized. She ate her entire meal that evening of Royal Canin.

Next day, Wednesday 2nd, I removed her usual dry food after reading about low carb food being optimal for diabetic cats. Gave 1,5 pouches of the new Royal Canin wet food divided throughout the day, which she ate.

Thursday 3rd, gave her half a Royal Canin wet food pouch in the morning and she was not interested at all. The rest of the day she didn't eat and in the evening she was laying near the water bowl without drinking.

Friday 4th, took her back to the vet after her not eating for over 24 hours now. Did more blood tests, this time fasted since she hadn't ate. Also did a pancreatitis test, which came out negative. After test results, she was put on IV drip for 1 hour with (I believe it was called lactates?) and 1/2 hours subcutaneous with saline(?). She also received a shot of antibiotics through the IV, an anti-nausea through IV and an appetite increasing pill. We also tested for ketones using a urine sample pulled directly from her bladder, which came out positive (high range). The vet fed her Royal Canin Recovery wet food by syringe (approx. 6 ml). She received her first insulin injection at the vet at 12pm, 2 units/0.05ml of caninsulin.

MCHC was lowered into normal ranges - 35.2 g/dL
RDW was still high - 30.5%
RETIC was still high - 74.7 K/uL
EOS was lowered into normal ranges - 0.99 K/uL
LYM was now showing as low - 0.90 K/uL
GLU was still high - 226 mg/dL
FRU was still high - 468 umol/L
BUN was low - 15 mg/dL

We were sent home again after the drip, with antibiotics for a week, insulin which we were told to give twice a day, 2 units each/0.05ml. Bought a glucose tester from the pharmacy. At home we started testing straight away and noting down the amount of food she was getting. In total I managed to give her 51ml of Royal Canin Recovery wet food by syringe (feeding approx. every 2 hours) as well as some chicken broth (12ml). Throughout the day she did not use the litter, she peed herself where she was sleeping 3 times during the day. Then late in the evening she walked to the litter to pee by herself twice, this was before her second those of insulin at midnight.

BG measurings throughout the day (yesterday 5th):

16:45 - 4.7 mmol
20:00 - 8.3 mmol
23:53 - 13.6 mmol (gave insulin at midnight after testing and feeding)
04:48 - 3.8 mmol

Today Saturday 5th, this morning she was still very lethargic, and she peed where she was sleeping a couple of times. Decided to take her back to the vet for more IV as the vet left the IV in her arm incase we had to/wanted to come back. She received a new round of lactates through the IV as well as subcutaneous in her neck. Stayed approx 1 hour. Tested for ketones again using urine, still present but vet said it looked like it was slightly lower than yesterday. She also received a new shot for anti nausea.

She got her first dose of insulin of the day after getting home from the vet at 12:15, after feeding. She is still not showing any interest to eat or drink by herself, so I have til now syringe fed her 33ml Royal Canin Recovery wet food and 12ml chicken broth. Did another ketone test at home around 30 min ago (4 hours after the first one today) and the colour is slightly lighter again (which should indicate less ketones).

Her BG measurings today have been:

04:48 am - 3.8mmol
08:30 am - 7.2mmol

According to the vet he says that her BG levels look ok, the fact that the ketone test showed slightly lower levels of ketones is good and that I am able to syringe feed her is good. However, I can't stop worrying about the ketones and the possibility of her getting worse, as I feel physically she is still not showing any signs of improvement even though the vet says the tests aren't worrying him.

So, is there something I should be doing differently? Something I should look out for in terms of her getting worse? I feel kind of lost, not knowing if I should just take the vets word or if I should be more worried, take her to the ER for more fluids/tests etc.
 
Hi @MonicaT,

Glad to see that you found your way here from our FB group! :)

On reading this post, I wonder if Mia stopped eating because she wanted dry food and didn't much care for wet food? Many cats do not like an overnight change in their food. My Bandit was a kibble addict and stopped eating when I tried to change her from dry to wet food cold turkey. Fortunately, she didn't have ketones. She started eating once we put back the dry food. You could try and see if hse eats her dry food willingly? While it's not ideal for diabetes, it is important that she eats - especially with ketones in the picture. Once she is stabilized you can try switching slowly to a low carb dry/wet food.

Which antibiotic did the vet prescribe? They can contribute to her not wanting to eat and feeling sick. You want to start her on a probiotic like S. Boulardii and give it 2 hours apart from the antibiotic.
https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Sacharomyces-Boulardii-Intestinal/dp/B0013OVW0E/

Caninsulin is not a great insulin for cats and at some point you want to ask your vet to prescribe a long-acting insulin like Glargine which is better suited to cats.

The normal range for blood sugar is 2.8-5.5 mmol/L with a human meter. We use a spreadsheet to track BG values which helps us in giving dosing advice and see how the kitty is faring. I can set one up for you, if you'd like.
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/

I'm going to tag @Bron and Sheba (GA) who is our person for ketones and DKA kitties.
 
Hi @Bandit's Mom :)

It could be it was a bad and too sudden decision on my part removing her dry food. However after seeing that she ate both of the new wet foods without issues, I thought it would be fine. I have tried giving her just about everything after she stopped eating, both her old wet food that she loved, her favourite treats, the old dry food, boiled chicken and boiled chicken shredded in chicken broth. She is not interested at all.

She is on clavaseptin, morning and evening. But again, she stopped eating before we started the antibiotic. I do have the Purina pro plan fortiflora sachets, is that something I should add to her diet straight away?

I will be discussing changing insulin with her vet on Monday.

The meter I have is called URight, bought from a pharmacy, so I guess it's for human use. Her vet told me to skip an insulin dose if the glucose level is 3 or below.

Would love it if you could help with the spreadsheet!
 
Is she still not interested in food? Even after the anti nausea and appetite stimulant given at the vet today? Which anti nausea shot did she get, do you know?

Keep syringe feeding the recovery food for now and keep the old dry/ wet food available in case she decides to eat it on her own. Try and get Ondansetron from the vet when you can.

Clavaseptin (same as Clavamox in the US) can also be exacerbating her anorexia. I think fortiflora should work as a probiotic (I'll tag @tiffmaxee and @Wendy&Neko to confirm). Give it 2 hours apart from the Clavaseptin.

I'll send you a PM with the details I need to set up your Signature and Spreadsheet. :-)
 
Were the EOS high after the food change or before? That is often an allergic reaction to a protein.
 
@Bandit's Mom Not interested in food at all, all the food she has gotten the past 2 days has been through syringe feeding with wet food. I don't remember the name of the anti nausea unfortunately. I asked the vet for the anti nausea ondansetron, but he said it would be better for her to just get it injected straight away instead of pills.

I'll wait to start probiotics until confirmation, thank you ☺️
 
Was the injection cerenia? It should be on your bill. Ondansetron is usually the best for nausea and needs to be give 3-4 times a day. I’d ask again. Don’t let me give you just a few as most vets don’t tell you to give it often enough or the correct dose since it’s a human medication that many don’t carry and you need to get it from a pharmacy. . Do you have any 100% protein baby food? Cats will often eat that when they don’t want anything else but I don’t know if you can get some.

Good the eosinophils returned to normal. One less thing to deal with.
 
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@Bandit's Mom Not interested in food at all, all the food she has gotten the past 2 days has been through syringe feeding with wet food. I don't remember the name of the anti nausea unfortunately. I asked the vet for the anti nausea ondansetron, but he said it would be better for her to just get it injected straight away instead of pills.

I'll wait to start probiotics until confirmation, thank you ☺️
Forti Flora isn’t a great probiotic because it has only one strain of healthy bacteria. It is tasty to cats though and many times cats will eat more if you sprinkle it on top of their food. Does your vet sell Visbiome? That’s the best. Proviable is better than Forti Flora. You can order it, but vets also sometimes sell the Proviable Forte probiotic. Visbiome Vet is better, but there are other multi-strain probiotics out there that are good - some are formulated for cats.
 
Are you testing for ketones at home using the urine strips? (Edit, I see that you are). I would definitely worry if she won’t eat and has ketones present. She needs regular anti-nausea medication if they believe she is nauseated. The injection (usually cerenia/maropitant lasts about 24 hours.). Ondansetron is usually underdosed by vets and needs to be given 2-3 times per day. It’s good you are syringe feeding her. The Clavaseptin can definitely make her feel sick/cause vomiting and diarrhea. That won’t help the whole ketone situation. She needs food and plenty of hydration. Did the vet check her electrolytes? If she doesn’t improve, I would take her to a different vet or the emergency service.
 
@tiffmaxee I really am not sure what she got. And they gave the injection "on the house" so it's not stated on any receipt or bill.

The vet is closed until Monday now, but I can ask for the anti nausea medication again then. And will check if I can find the 100% protein baby food
 
@tiffmaxee I really am not sure what she got. And they gave the injection "on the house" so it's not stated on any receipt or bill.

The vet is closed until Monday now, but I can ask for the anti nausea medication again then. And will check if I can find the 100% protein baby food
My cats like Gerber ham baby food best — and sometimes chicken or turkey. I have never tried the beef. Beech Nut is okay too. I don’t know where you live so I am not sure pf the brands available to you, but pure meat with broth is fine (no other seasoning like onions or garlic, of course.). Gerber has a small amount of cornstarch but are still quite low in carbs.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy I will start with fortiflora for now as I already have it and then check with vet on Monday for other brands.
Most cats love the taste (although I have had very ill cats refuse to eat anything even with the forti flora on top. Do you have any recovery type food available like Hill’s A/D or Royal Canin recovery formula (prescription foods.)? Those are easy to syringe mixed with water because of their smooth texture.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy Started testing for ketones at home today. Had her first test using urine at the vet yesterday, which came out with a high ketone level. Today the strip was showing a slightly lighter colour at the vet, insinuating lower amount and then tested again at home where the colour is even lighter. So should be a good sign if the ketone levels are becoming lower, but her physical symptoms are still there, which is why I am so confused.

They haven't said specifically that they think she is nauseous, my impression is more that it can be a possibility. Because of the ketones or other factors.

Regarding hydration she has been to the vet 2 days in a row now to get IV and subcutaneous fluids. And she is peeing a light yellow color that the vet said looked like a good color.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy I am feeding her the recovery canned wet food from Royal Canin, that's the only food she has gotten today and all of yesterday by syringe. But only managed to get her to eat around 55ml yesterday, hopefully by the end of today I would manage to get up to at least 80ml.
 
What does the bottle of test strips say about the color? Negative, trace, small, moderate, etc.?

like this photo:
upload_2024-10-5_15-59-56.png
 

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I do think nausea is there. The shot was probably cerenia which needs to be dosed every 24 hours. Ondansetron always has worked better for my cats. The last time I used it my cat needed every 6-8 hours to start eating. I thought since I didn’t feed overnight she did not need it before bed but I was wrong. I tried cyproheptadine and later mirataz unsuccessfully until the ondansetron dose was upped.
 
Hi and welcome to the forum.
I agree it does sound as if your kitty does have nausea. It’s very common in cats with ketones. I would not wait til Monday to ask for some ondansetron. Is there another vet or ER you can ask for some? With those ketones in the urine, even though they are reducing, (they are still high), your kitty needs to be eating lots of food to help combat the ketones.
I would also try to see if she will eat her old food again. Eating any food is more important than what she eats at this point. Try offering food every couple of hours.
The ondansetron can be given at the same time as the Cerenia as they work on different pathways. The ondansetron is a human medication and the vet needs to write a script for you and then you get it at the human pharmacy. And ondansetron is better for nausea in cats.

Are you home testing the blood glucose at the moment? I would highly you do so. You can get a relion premier meter from Walmart cheaply. You also need some test strips and some lancets…get some 26 or 28 gauge and some cotton balls to hold behind the ear..

How much caninsulin are you giving at the moment?
Even though caninsulin is not a great insulin for cats, I would not change it over to Lantus until the ketones have well and truely gone. This is because caninsulin is an ‘ in and out’ insulin and the full effect of the dose is felt straight away, whereas Lantus is a depot insulin and the full effect of the dose is not felt for up to 5 days while the depot fills. During this 5 days, if using Lantus, the ketones could increase again and we don’t want that. Does that make sense?
 
Here is a plan for you to follow for Mia while she has ketones. The aim is to get rid of the ketones and not have the move the other way towards DKA.

  • you need to give one and a half times as many calories as she normally eats. Offer snacks every couple of hours during the day and evening as well as the 2 main meals. Food is like a medicine and helps keep ketones away. If Mia won’t eat the low carb food, feed her whatever she will eat as eating any food is better than not eating. Syringe feed if necessary.
  • Don’t skip any doses of insulin as insulin helps keep ketones away. If the BG is not high enough to give the dose…stall, dont feed and test again in 20 minutes and post and ask for help.
  • Test daily for ketones. Put the results of the tests into the remarks column of the SS so we can see. Please report any trace ketones at all.
  • Give antinausea medication if needed such as ondansetron and / or Cerenia
  • Give appetite stimulant if needed after the antinausea medication
  • Give extra fluids. If kitty will tolerate warm water in the food, put a teaspoon into each snack..
  • Ask the vet about subQ fluids
  • Set up a spreadsheet and test the BG frequently
  • Post daily with updates and ask for help as often as needed.
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA)

At midnight her 2nd dose of the day was due, the number when testing was 9.7 so we skipped it as vet had told us to skip if less than 10.

Retested at 2.20 am and it has gone up to 14.4. we also took her temp which was 33.6. we called the ER to ask what to do, they were the ones who told us to check her temp. They said main thing is to get temp up and try feeding her abit more.
 
At midnight her 2nd dose of the day was due, the number when testing was 9.7 so we skipped it as vet had told us to skip if less than 10.

Retested at 2.20 am and it has gone up to 14.4. we also took her temp which was 33.6. we called the ER to ask what to do, they were the ones who told us to check her temp. They said main thing is to get temp up and try feeding her abit more
 
It’s not a good idea to skip with ketones in the picture. If the BG is lower, stall, don’t feed and test again a bit later to see if it’s going up. Even a smaller dose is better than skipping. Always post and ask for help.
Because you skipped the dose you can bring the time for the next dose forward to a better schedule if that suits. So if a 6:6 or a 7:7 suits better you can do that.
Try feeding lots. It doesn’t matter if it is high card food at the moment. Main thing is she is eating. The diet can be sorted out later.
What is the dose of caninsulin?
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA)

What do you mean if BG is lower? It was 9.7 when testing before feeding at midnight when insulin was due. So we skipped the dose according to instructions from vet.

Tested 2 hours and 20 minutes later, which is now 1 hour ago, and it had gone up to 14.4.

Not sure what you mean by 6:6 or 7:7? That we change the time for insulin doses?

But what should I do now? Still skip the insulin?

I am syringe feeding her for 2 days now, with Royal canin recovery wet food. Canned. The caninsulin doses are 2 units (0.05ml) twice a day
 
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@tiffmaxee not a duplicate, my other thread is the main introduction?

This is a current situation where I don't know if I should give insulin or skip it until next dose at 12 (midday) which is in 8,5 hours in my time zone
 
By 6/6 or 7/7 she means giving insulin at either 6:00 or 7:00. I’m nit comfortable giving dosing advice with your insulin but it seems to me reducing the dose a little would make sense so you do not need to skip. So skip tonight and then you can pick whatever time you want for insulin in the morning. Do you feed 30 minutes before giving insulin?
 
@tiffmaxee

Oh ok, so because I skipped the midnight dose I can dose earlier than 12 (midday)?

I will be going to the vet to get her more IV fluids as soon as they open at 7 am, in 3 hours.

I have been testing, then feeding and then giving insulin around 15 min after feeding
 
Is that a good time for you to give insulin or would 6:00 or 7:00 be better? Suzanne just responded on main. It’s better to stay there.
 
Would you be able to give insulin at 7:00 every day? I’d like Suzanne to give her opinion as she’s used your insulin I think. I’m only familiar with depot insulin and might be able to give opinions with Prozinc.
@Suzanne & Darcy
 
@tiffmaxee

Oh ok, so because I skipped the midnight dose I can dose earlier than 12 (midday)?

I will be going to the vet to get her more IV fluids as soon as they open at 7 am, in 3 hours.

I have been testing, then feeding and then giving insulin around 15 min after feeding
Yes. You can dose whenever you want. What is a good time for you to give every day?
 
You need to feed 30 minutes before the dose of caninsulin.
I would give the dose of insulin before you go to the vet if the BG is high enough.
Are you testing 2 and 3 and 4 hours after the doses to see how low the dose is taking her. ?
I would be reluctant to reduce the dose with moderate ketones. Do you have any higher carb food you could feed her? see what Suzanne says about the dose
 
@tiffmaxee I thought insulin doses always had to be 12 hours between? And if a dose is skipped I will have to wait til the next dose is due?

I am fine with the 12 and 12 doses that we were put on. But 10 and 10 for example would work too.

I'm more concerned about the current situation of skipping a dose though as it's the first time I have done it.
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA) Ok, will make sure she has been fed 30 min before her dose is due going forward.

I haven't had a time schedule for testing BG apart from when testing before insulin. I have tested around 4 hours and 8 hours after. Should I be testing every hour?

Will stick to the 2 unit dose she has been put on by the vet as long as ketones are present. I am syringe feeding her for 2 days now, that's the only way she gets food. Royal canin recovery wet food.
 
You don’t have to test hourly … no. It just helps to see when the BG drops and how far. With caninsulin it drops mostly in the first 4 hours.
I would definitely not wait the 12 hours to give the next dose. Ketones thrive when there is insufficient insulin and insufficient food. That is why we say don’t skip doses if at all possible and feed lots of food.
And the fluids the vet is giving will help too.
Ketones can multiple quickly if given the chance.

Have you tried putting some dry food in front of her to see if she will eat it?
Remember to ask the vet about the ondansetron… very important. I’ve seen many cats not want to eat after cerenia but will eat after ondansetron.
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA) I would be going to the vet in around 3 hours. I just fed her, so if I am going to give her insulin now I won't be able to test BG without the usual 2 hour fast first. Is that fine? Or should I wait 2 hours from now since I fed and then test, feed again and insulin?
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA)

Sorry for the messy overview, just copied from my own chart as I haven't had time to fill in the chart in the forum yet. Don't know if this gives you enough of an idea of her BG and feeding times?

Before this feed her last one was 00:15, so 4,5 hours ago

10/5/2024 05.10.24 11:30 ketose urine sample 4.5/6
10/5/2024 05.10.24 14:45 wet food 12ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 14:45 chicken broth 6ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 16:15 ketose urine sample 3.5-4/6
10/5/2024 05.10.24 16:46 blood glucose 3.8
10/5/2024 05.10.24 17:15 wet food 12ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 17:15 chicken broth 3ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 19:00 wet food 9 ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 19:00 chicken broth 1,5ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 20:00 blood glucose 4.4
10/5/2024 05.10.24 20:15 wet food 6ml
10/5/2024 05.10.24 20:15 chicken broth 1,5ml
10/5/2024 06.10.24 0:07 ketose urine sample 3.5
10/5/2024 05.10.24 23:58 blood glucose 9.7
10/6/2024 06.10.24 0:15 wet food 15ml
10/6/2024 06.10.24 0:30 antibiotics day 1
10/6/2024 06.10.24 2:20 blood glucose 14,4
 
So if she had a feed 4 hours ago and you just fed her now, you could test the BG as it will take at least 15 minutes for the food to rise the BG.
Can you take the BG now?
 
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