8-27-20 New member and feeling overwhelmed

@tiffmaxee -

Story so far:

PMPS: - 403 // Fed 1/4 cup raw // DOSE: 0.25IU Lantus (1st cycle)
+1.00 - 418
+2.00 - 552 // Fed 1/8 cup raw
+3.00 - 645
+6.00 - 555

AMPS: - 514 // Fed ??? raw // DOSE: Skinny 0.5IU Lantus
+4.00 - 95
+5.00 - 69 // Fed cpl tsps raw
+5.25 - 109
+6.00 - 82
+7.00 - 70 // (asked caregiver to feed again)

Foods currently available:

* Raw low carb (very)
* Honey

(More supplies on the way)

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Ok. Who is guiding the ship? When I suggested more food was it given and with or without karo?

 

Waiting to hear back from Robyn. I asked her to feed and then test after 15 mins. I didn't ask her to give karo, based on the food rise from the earlier 'snack' of raw. I know it won't keep the numbers up long but Robyn's husband has gone to Walmart for carbier supplies. (It's about 15 minutes away from where they live.)

I've been trying to hold the fort thus far. Do you want to take over, Elise?

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Do you need to be relieved?

 

Could you cover for about 15 minutes? I have a furchild that requires pilling and I could really do with a comfort break (so I guess I do need a little 'relief'... ). Other than that, I'm A-OK to carry on.

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https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

After things calm you it would be helpful to set up a spreadsheet for Olive, it would be easier for members to take a look at that rather than go through the posts. There is also a remarks column there to add what you have fed Olive in case you have to see what you have feed to bring her BG up. She is adorable
Praying for Olive to come up and stay there

 

I'm also still around. Take a break, Mogs!

 

@OlivesMom -

Robyn, please can you let us know how things are at your end?

- Did Olive eat OK?

- What was her BG 15 minutes after the food?

- Has Steve managed to get back yet with the additional foods?

- Is there anything else wrong?

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Thank you, Nan. Don't need to be told twice.

Will post as soon as I get back. Hope the above summary is OK. (ETA: thanks for getting the bones of that done earlier. )

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@Nan & Amber (GA) Im going to head out for my afternoon walk since you are around.

 

@Nan & Amber (GA) - It's now an hour since we heard anything. I hope all is OK...

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Hoping it's just shopping, etc. We're also late in the cycle, so hopefully Olive will stop her bounce-breaking dramatics soon and come back up.

 

Sorry to worry everyone. I've been testing Olive, on phone with hubby as he's been trying to get the right stuff for Olive, he swung by another store to get her some more raw food, and I've been on the phone with the vet tech playing the relay info game again. Vet's supposed to call me tonight with her plan of action as I told the tech that a half unit is simply too much for Olive. The tech said the vet wasn't going to allow me to go under that half unit, so we'll see what she says. But yes, Olives numbers are okay at the moment. I started to tell you guys 15minutes after I tested but then I kept being dragged away. Again, sorry if I worried you. Let me get those numbers written out.

 

Spreadsheet's set up and she's got the link...had to get the information first and she was obviously busy with more important things!

 

@OlivesMom -

If you get stuck like that again, Robyn, just post the number for the test result - no need for any accompanying text. That way, if there's anything we need to advise you in response to the result, we can post it up for you to read as soon as possible so you can take any action necessary without any delay.

Next requests:

- Please can you test Olive again ASAP. She may be heading downwards again and if so you need to catch it.

- Please can you post the result here as soon as you get it. (Also the test result from +7.25, please.)


(We'll be able to respond to it faster - you can add it to your spreadsheet after).


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94 +9.75

 

Thanks, Robyn.

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OK, great, it's nice to see her up some, but she's not exactly starting her bounce yet, now is she???

Just so you know, numbers like the ones she's been in today are great for her pancreas-- healing numbers!

 

Story so far:

PMPS: - 403 // Fed 1/4 cup raw // DOSE: 0.25IU Lantus (1st cycle)
+1.00 - 418
+2.00 - 552 // Fed 1/8 cup raw
+3.00 - 645
+6.00 - 555

AMPS: - 514 // Fed ??? raw // DOSE: Skinny 0.5IU Lantus
+4.00 - 95
+5.00 - 69 // Fed cpl tsps raw
+5.25 - 109
+6.00 - 82
+7.00 - 70 // Fed small amount of raw @ +7.25 (16:10)
+7.75 - 100
+8.25 - 104
+9.25 - 94



Foods currently available:

* Raw low carb (very)
* Honey

(More supplies on the way)

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@OlivesMom -

What time zone are you in, Robyn?

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@Nan & Amber (GA) -

I think that Olive is now within the 2 hours before next preshot test is due. I had hoped we would have been able to ask Robyn to give her a little bit of food beforehand.

Fs & Ps crossed that this far along in the cycle the numbers will hold (anti-jinx).

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Once again pulled away. The vet called as I had just told you I'd send Olive's numbers.

That's great to know. I've got so much to share with you guys now after speaking to the vet. Want to run it all by you guys and get your thoughts. But first let me get the numbers to you from earlier and again I want to thank Chris for the help creating the spread sheet. I had such hopes of having that done for you guys today but there's been no time. Hubby is back with all the supplies and so I'm all set now. Hooray!

Sorry, still having trouble turning the actual time into +
4:50pm Olive was at 100 after having eaten some at 4:10.
104 +8.25
94 +9.25

 

@OlivesMom -

Thanks for keeping the info coming. It helps us to help you better.

Next:

- Please can you test again in 30 minutes, Robyn.

- Please can you familiarise yourself with the new glucometer ASAP and let us know how many test strips you have for it. You may need to use it tonight.

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Pretty sure there's still time for a snack (I think she's in CST, it's 6:30 there now), but with those numbers I wonder if Olive will be high enough to shoot tonight anyway...

 

Yes, I'll be retesting in about 20 minutes. I'll try and get the new human meter up and running tonight but I do have some test strips left for the AT2 for tonight. I may work on the other meter tomorrow as I'd really like to work on that spread sheet some.

 

I think that makes sense, to start fresh with the new meter on a new day. Assuming Olive will let you do that, that is .

Tomorrow it'll also be a good idea to start a new thread, as this one is getting kind of long (hard for new people to jump in). Stick with this thread tonight, though, to keep the story together .

 

If Olive goes low again tonight it's very likely you'll run out of test strips for the Alphatrak. I wouldn't suggest the rush otherwise. I'd not like to see you have the additional stress of trying to learn how to use a new meter on top of the stress of a low run.

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Agree that it's a good idea to at least unwrap the meter, figure out how the strips like to sip blood, etc. Fingers crossed that Olive will behave herself tonight so you won't need to use the new meter on her, but best to be prepared!

 

You've done great today!

Just an FYI - it takes 20-30 minutes for carbs to go from the plate to the blood sugar. Testing after 15 isn't going to tell you what you need to know.

The most important thing to remember is that you hold the syringe - you are the one there with Olive. Looking forward to hearing what the vet suggested.

 

Thanks, Wendy. How much time for honey? And the gravy from a med or high carb food?
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The vet said in her 30 years of practice she's never seen a cat like Olive who bottoms out to hypo on just a half unit of insulin. After reviewing her lab work and all the numbers I had in my log book, she believes that Olive isn't getting ENOUGH carbs in a day. Makes some sense since since we had her on kibble that was 25% carbs for the 8 years and we suddenly took her off that and switched to raw that has 0.04% carbs. She definitely pushed that we put her on the Purina DM just for a trial period of 2-4 weeks as she said all her diabetic clients have excelled on it and many have been able to go off insulin in the end just by that diet. I told her I wanted to stay raw as I've heard it's the best for diabetic cats and she said that in Olive's case it's not offering her enough carbs. She said if I could find another raw equivalent that offered 50-60% protein instead of the 97% that is Primal Raw, that she'd be willing to allow Olive to go to that. Otherwise, she begged me to give the DM food a trial try just to see how that diet balances Olive out. I'm curious if there's anything I can add to the raw diet to make it higher in carbs and if any of you have any ideas on alternative holistic foods that will satisfy the 50-60% protein content the vet wants. She said not to worry about the actual carb content because as long as the protein amount matches that, then the carb content would be just the right amount. I was HAPPY that I convinced her that we should try Olive at the quarter unit of insulin by explaining to her the positive results this group has had using that amount. She said if Olive goes up to a BG of 350 by 9pm tonight then to give her that quarter unit of insulin and if not then to give her nothing until morning at which time to give her the quarter unit of insulin. One thing she told me is that treating a diabetic cat shouldn't be this hard and that she feels awful for Olive that she's having to be stuck so frequently all because her BG is so erratic. She again stated that if she just had higher carbs that the insulin wouldn't be making her drop like this. Any thoughts? We'd like to keep her on raw food, but if she needs more carbs and I can't find another alternative holistic diet that offers more, then I really don't know what to do next as far as diet goes.

104 +10 It may just be that Olive is starting to stay steady now. She hasn't taken a dive in a while.

Ok, I see what you mean. I've got enough stress right now so I'll get the new meter going just in case it's needed through the night.

 

The Lantus dose is wearing off.

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Story so far:

PMPS: - 403 // Fed 1/4 cup raw // DOSE: 0.25IU Lantus (1st cycle)
+1.00 - 418
+2.00 - 552 // Fed 1/8 cup raw
+3.00 - 645
+6.00 - 555

AMPS: - 514 // Fed ??? raw // DOSE: Skinny 0.5IU Lantus
+4.00 - 95
+5.00 - 69 // Fed cpl tsps raw
+5.25 - 109
+6.00 - 82
+7.00 - 70 // Fed small amount of raw @ +7.25 (16:10)
+7.75 - 100
+8.25 - 104
+9.25 - 94
+10.00 - 100


Foods currently available:

* Raw low carb (very)
* Honey

(More supplies on the way)

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Okay, I'm going to take some time now and work on the spread sheet so hopefully can get that to the group soon. Hubby is going to help me. So hopefully can work faster. I need some down time tonight. Been running to stressed... I'll be in the background...

 

Hmmm... initial first thoughts: I like that your vet is taking such a thoughtful approach! Whether or not I end up agreeing with her , it's a good sign.

I do think it's a sensible hypothesis, that Olive may not be ready for a super-low-carb diet. Some diabetic cats generally seem to do well with just slightly higher carbs; Olive may be one of them, or that may change once she gets back to her fighting weight.

I disagree that the higher carbs are going to stop all of her wild BG swings, though. Maybe she won't dive quite as low with a few more carbs buffering her, but I suspect that she'd still be a pretty bouncy girl and keep zooming up regularly. She's still very very early in her diabetes story, this just takes time.

I'll be interested to hear what other think, especially about ways to modify a raw diet to add a few more carbs. Maybe you could add a little cooked rice or similar? I have no experience with raw food though, so let's see what those who do have to say.

 

Of course, looking at Olive's numbers so far today, she may make a liar out of me. "Bounce? Who me? I have no idea what you could be talking about!!!!"

 

Ok, just finished the spread sheet and I don't see the button on how to save it, just to share. Does the share button send it to the group?

 

Put the link I gave you in the PM into your Signature

 

Did I do it right?

 

Purrfect!!

 

How do I save it so I can continue working on it?

 

It's saved automatically on Google. All you have to do is open it and add to it. You can't use the link in your signature but I sent you the link to open it so you can continue adding to it

 

Oh ok. Thanks so much, Chris.

 

I'm going to go feed Olive and knowing her numbers aren't going down anymore think I'll test an hour from now while I go sit and relax for the first time all day. Then I'll work on the new meter. I'll pop on later and see if anyone has any thoughts on anything.

 

So... no shot tonight, with that 120, correct? (just checking!)

Am I reading your spreadsheet correctly, that she only got a handful of shots in the beginning, then one at 3am on 8/21, then the last couple? Hmmmm.....

 

Hi Nan I was wondering about that also

 

Yes, at the beginning when her numbers dropped the old vet told me to stop all insulin and test her without it for a week and do a week long curve, but I got so nervous at her high number that night during it that I gave her the shot. But the vet said to continue on without the insulin and sort of "reset" the week long test. So she's not been consistent on the Lantus at all. No, I won't be giving her any insulin tonight but as long as her numbers are at 350 or above by morning I'm supposed to give a quarter unit.

 

On the spreadsheet you should put in the unit column NS for No Shot and you can note why in the remarks column

 

Also in the remarks column whets you put the times you fed her you should put @+3 for example not the time, only because we have members here with all different time zones
Where you have a skinny half , instead of that put 0.5 Skinny
With quarters you can put 0.25 Skinny
Same thing with half's example 0.5 FAT if you ever give a dose like this

 

You know, I don't think I appreciated just how many days she'd gone without insulin until I saw it on the spreadsheet. Hmmm...

Guess we'll see where she is in the morning! If you are still up, I'd probably try to get one more test in tonight, just to make sure she's behaving herself. Wonderful run of numbers today, though!

 

I agree pretty much with what your vet says, as I already outlined in my first reply to your opening post on this thread. I just wonder whether there will be enough carbs in the Purina DM wet food to enable Olive to receive insulin safely at the moment. If she doesn't stabilise on the DM wet food very quickly I suggest you consider feeding a medium carb diet, preferably a calorie-dense food or plenty of a 'regular calorie' food to hopefully enable insulin to be administered safely and Olive to regain weight faster.

If Olive regains the weight it may make her diabetes more stable. You could always revisit diet choices then.

Please remember to test Olive daily for ketones.

Well done with the testing today, Robyn. I hope you get a good night's rest.


Mogs
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Looks like hypersensitivity to insulin, even pulses of the endogenous one.


Mogs
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So I’m going to offer another analysis. She was clearly started on too much insulin.she was eating dry and carbs before diagnosed. I think the diet change has had a huge impact. Perhaps continuing on Raw with maybe .25 will be her starting dose. There are raw foods with more carbs if that’s what you feel is needed. I just wonder if she has a pancreas trying to work and just needs a tiny amount of insulin support and she may just go OTJ and be diet controlled.

 

Maybe shop around different raw foods. I fed ones that varied between 3-5% carbs, depending on the protein. For example, kangaroo is a higher carb meat, though still lean. Nature's Variety raw are all 3% carbs. Your vet is right that some cats do better with some carbs vs no carbs.

For even higher carb dehydrated raw, Honest Kitchen makes Prowl and Grace. They are higher carb because there is potato in the mix. One is medium carb, one is high carb. I can't remember which is which, they were in the old version of Dr. Lisa's list but not the new one. I vaguely recall the turkey one is the medium carb, but don't quote me.

We had one kitty on the Lantus forum recently who tanked even on 0.1 units of insulin.

Honey could be faster, medium and high carb that 20-30 minutes - depending on the cat.

 

Wow, tanked on 0. 1 unit. Geez. Been a long day so headed to bed. I got in one final test before I do. PMPS +3 216 at midnight. So I feel safe going to sleep. I'll make the corrections to the spread sheet tomorrow. As to going on a higher carb food, I'd appreciate any help in trying to find some alternatives to satisfy our need to keep Olive on a raw diet or closer to it versus going to the DM. I read the ingredient list and quite frankly it is filled with junk. I know the vet said cats thrive on it, but I don't understand how. As long as I can offer her something to try in its place she'd be ok with it. The more I think about it, I do believe Olive needs a bit more carbs than she's currently getting at 0.04% due to the fact she had only known high carbs. I think we shocked her system going raw so quickly. I feel horrible about that. I'll research those foods you mentioned but Im open to any help out there. I'm off to bed. Until tomorrow.

 

So, I have a question about all of this. Usually, when we talk about bounces, we say that they can last "up to six cycles". I'd assumed yesterday that Olive had been bouncing from a low during her 3am insulin shot a few days earlier and then just happened to break that bounce yesterday, coinciding with yesterday's shot.

But the best candidate for the low was on 8/23 (pretty far removed from her 3am shot the night of 8/21, but not impossible with a depot?), and then there were nine cycles of high numbers following that.

So, does that mean that it's not entirely bouncing that we're seeing with those high numbers? Or that her pancreas is sputtering up to provide some endogenous insulin lows (the blue on 8/25) to start a new bounce? (@tiffmaxee, that seems to be what you're suggesting)

In any case, Robyn, you certainly shouldn't blame yourself for the raw switch-- that was a good thing for Olive and your other cat(s)! If you hadn't done that, you'd probably just be seeing high numbers all the time and frustratingly little progress. If the raw has given her pancreas a break from processing carbs and allowed it to start doing some healing, that's a good thing!

 

Wow I wish Robyns vet could read this dialogue, Its fascinating!
WELL DONE everyone BRAVO

 

@nanandamber That is exactly what I think might be happening. I saw this with a few others recently sometimes with diet changes, sometimes when stopping steroids. They were given too much insulin to start and the highs and lows kept on coming. It will be interesting to see what happens here.

 

Have you ever considered making your own food? One of our members discovered that EZ Complete which is a supplement that you add to ground raw meat you buy at the grocery store has some carbs in it. For her cat it raised the BG but it’s the first one that I’ve heard where this happens as it’s low carb.

 

If you're asking me...Yes I have but our temperatures here I just dont trust raw if I had AC I might rethink it. This house averages between 90 and 105 in the summer. I have Zoes bowl sitting in a pan of water and add ice to the pan, that ice melts immediately.

 

@jt and trouble (GA) Sorry. I meant to respond to Nan. I hit yours instead. Reallly meant for Robyn. BTW, how are things this morning?

Here’s the supplement EZ Complete.
https://www.foodfurlife.com/ezcomplete-fur-cats-premix-information.html#/

Susan Thixton has a food list she puts out every year with foods that have U.S. supplements and human grade protein. You could get her list and then look on line or call for info on their food. Also, which primal proteins were you feeding? Some have a lower protein content than others. Thixton’s site is Truth About Food.

 

LOL No problem! Alls well in the so cal desert!

 

Hope all is well in your castle.

 

I’m in So Cal. Hot here but 10-20 less than where you are! I don’t know how you stand that heat. I’ve become more and more heat sensitive in my old age.

 

Ive lived in this house since 1980...desert rat there. (Dont know why
I thought you were in the UK lmao) Our low last night was 89 and I had to add blankets to the bed!

 

sorry for the hijack seems I'm prone to it..

 

I literally can't imagine! (in the winter, I have my thermostat at 62 at night, and feel a bit guilty about having it that high!)

 

Time for a new thread this morning anyway, as soon as @OlivesMom comes on. Speaking of which, ought to be time for the AMPS and (maybe) shot...

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAAA 62 is mukluk weather

 

Good day all. I haven't had a chance to read any of the posts since last night but wanted to jump on here to tell you I'll be back in a few hours to update. Wanted you to know Olive did well through the night and I had to offer a quarter unit an hour late an hour ago. Be back then.

 

In our younger we can take it days, we turned the thermostat down to 55 at night during the winter. Not anymore. 62 at night, 66 during the day (with many "discussions" about turning the heat up a notch). We have an old house with leaky windows. We wear a lot of clothes.

 

How do you start a new thread? I want to catch you guys up on the latest from the funny farm.

 

Click on Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)

Near the top righthand corner, you should see a blue box that says Post New Thread. Click.