? Wynk low at +6.5

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If I were you, Cara, I would stick with the 1.6 for the pre shots in the 250 range and 2 for the higher ranges. That's what I meant about shooting the same dose for a while. Switching to the 1.8 seemed to give you the late nadir and need to skip. The 2 units looks okay for today. It brought down an expected high preshot to a shootable pmps. I hope he will get back on track now with lower ranges overall. My thinking is that he has a few unpredictable wonky cycles after a low and after a skipped shot and it takes him awhile to settle back down and do a little more of the expected. The fewer skipped shots the better.

This weekend when you can be around, it will be easier for you to be more aggressive with the dosing, if you want.
 
... Switching to the 1.8 seemed to give you the late nadir and need to skip. The 2 units looks okay for today. It brought down an expected high preshot to a shootable pmps

I don't agree (big surprise :) ). As I said last night:
1.8 wasn't "too much", or at least you don't know that for sure. "Too much" would have been a dose that dropped him under 90, or under 68, or whatever number you decide is "under normal". SLGS says on an AT meter, you reduce the dose by default if a cat drops below 90. If you were following tight regulation for Lantus you'd reduce automatically if below 68 on an AT meter. Not sure what number gets an automatic reduction if you were following the TR protocol for Prozinc/PZI because nobody really follows that protocol here. Wynk might have gone lower in between +5 and PMPS, or he might have reached nadir at +12. No way to know for sure.
If you take last night's numbers at face value, 123/132, you could argue that Wynk was rising, which means nadir happened sometime between +5 and +12.

As far as a " shootable pmps" goes... If you take Cara's scale from above:

325+. 2u
225-325. 1.6u (just wrote "do not give 1.8" by that)
150-225. 1u

then last night's number was almost shootable.
 
Personally, I'm with Sue. That way, hopefully you'd get 2 shootable preshots. Since stalling didn't bring him up to a shootable number, I'd want to reduce some so that hopefully I could shoot more often rather than skipping. Just my thoughts.

Of course, you hold the syringe, so the decision is yours.
 
Hmm. Well obviously there's more than one way to think about all of this. And that's ok. Like many things in life, our different individual experiences and outlooks shape our philosophy and cause us to approach things differently.

The important thing here is that all of you are explaining why your approach makes sense to you, and everyone has Wynken's health as a priority....and I do appreciate it!
 
Cara- I went through exactly what you are going through (well, except the part about possible going OTJ) a few months ago, so I was just relating how I approached it
Carl - please don't give up - this stuff is extremely stressful to those of us having to deal with how much insulin to give- it really helps to have lots of advice from different points of view
 
Cara, I haven't given up on you and Wynk. It's like everyone else is looking at a different speadsheet than I am.

In the 5 years I've been around, I have seen many people say, hundreds of times, that the big advantage of PZI/Prozinc is that it is "flexible".

Unfortunately it is rare that people use it that way, and extremely discouraging to even more rarely see anyone advise people to take advantage of the flexibility.

It's just "words".
 
I'm glad you are not giving up, Carl. I agree with Carol... It is stressful to not quite understand enough to be sure of what to do. Although I think I'm getting a better "feel" for it all the time.

But it takes all kinds of different input to learn. Everyone has been good to share their knowledge. I don't believe there is an absolute right way and and absolute wrong way. Wynk is a little weird, it seems like. I have no experience like you and Sue do, looking at everybody's spreadsheet. I have tried to look at a few, and I can't see any theme or pattern emerging that I can comprehend. So no one here is wrong in what they are suggesting, IMHO. EPID - every person is also different.
 
I never created a spreadsheet for Bob. I wish I had at times, just so people could see what I did. By the time I started posting on the board, he was almost OTJ, so I never asked for any dose advice.

I will say that if people saw it, it'd probably scare the crap out of them. But it worked for Bob. Have you ever looked at Bandit's SS? It doesn't make me bat an eye...
 
It's true. Everyone here has their own opinions and feelings on things. The good thing is that we are all able to explain why we feel the way we do. That's the point of a forum. We all give our thoughts behind our advice. The bean makes the decision based on what they read. And since we can all remain polite and civil here, it's a good experience for everyone.

Carl doesn't bat an eye at Bandit's SS. That's fine. That's his opinion and he has given his reasons behind it. I do. It absolutely terrifies me and I'd never suggest anyone follow dosing like that. That's also fine because I have given my reasons behind it. Cara holds the syringe and can take both perspectives into account and make her decision from there.

I'm glad we have this open forum so different perspectives can be talked about in a calm, friendly manner.
 
Here she is, Rachel! She hid all night and wouldn't come out this morning or at lunch when I buzzed home to check Wynk's BG. But tonight I woo-ed her out and she is SO SWEET!! I could just kill whoever abandoned her.
OMG! She is so sweet and looks like she will have Maine Coon in her. I want her! BUT, I can't. being unemployed and dealing with FD and now a epileptic dog, there are no more funds. But, gosh she is so sweet looking. You won't have any trouble getting her a forever home. Bless you for saving her!
 
OMG! She is so sweet and looks like she will have Maine Coon in her. I want her! BUT, I can't. being unemployed and dealing with FD and now a epileptic dog, there are no more funds. But, gosh she is so sweet looking. You won't have any trouble getting her a forever home. Bless you for saving her!
I keep coming back to look at that cute little face again. She looks like she is going to be a big girl with those big paws! Stop, my heart......
 
It's true. Everyone here has their own opinions and feelings on things. The good thing is that we are all able to explain why we feel the way we do. That's the point of a forum. We all give our thoughts behind our advice. The bean makes the decision based on what they read. And since we can all remain polite and civil here, it's a good experience for everyone.

Carl doesn't bat an eye at Bandit's SS. That's fine. That's his opinion and he has given his reasons behind it. I do. It absolutely terrifies me and I'd never suggest anyone follow dosing like that. That's also fine because I have given my reasons behind it. Cara holds the syringe and can take both perspectives into account and make her decision from there.

I'm glad we have this open forum so different perspectives can be talked about in a calm, friendly manner.

Here's the thing though, Rachel. Kevin is the caregiver, and he is following his vet's instructions. He's grateful for our suggestions, and doesn't resent our advice which is overwhelmingly negative to what he is doing. Except for me. And the reason that I don't bat an eye is because he isn't batting an eye. And his spreadsheet shows no reason, (other than our own preconceived notions about Prozinc and dosing), for concern. Would I tell someone to follow the method he's used? No, I'm not that aggressive. But I have no problem supporting HIS choices because he's taken full responsibility for doing things way more aggressive than anyone here might think is "okay". Which I have done every time he has posted an update.

"Aggressive" works and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it offers the greatest chance of remission. Just like with Lantus and Lev, an aggressive treatment method offers the best chance at remission. That doesn't mean "TR" for Prozinc. It means trying to get the numbers into lower ranges as quickly and as often as possible. It also means that every cat really is different, and each cat requires a different method of dosing. It means different doses on different BG preshots, and taking advantage of "long cycles". That's the way things used to be done in PZI. Look back at the oldest threads on this forum. And before that, on the old board that is no longer accessible, a whole lot of people did follow tight regulation for PZI. That's where most of my "thinking" comes from because I see that it worked. And although I wasn't posting here when Bob was diabetic, and most of those people were no longer around when I joined, I would have fit right in with them. I never asked for advice here. And that's not because I felt that the advice was "too conservative". It was because I (like Kevin) had total faith in my vet and her methods, which just happened to be aggressive. I had no clue that was true, it was just what I did.

And I really, really don't mean to sound harsh or critical by saying this, but I have always believed that if I had joined FDMB and immediately started asking for dose advice here, Bob would never have gone into remission. So that's why I am the lone voice in the wilderness trying to make people understand how I think.
 
Here's the thing though, Rachel. Kevin is the caregiver, and he is following his vet's instructions. He's grateful for our suggestions, and doesn't resent our advice which is overwhelmingly negative to what he is doing. Except for me. And the reason that I don't bat an eye is because he isn't batting an eye. And his spreadsheet shows no reason, (other than our own preconceived notions about Prozinc and dosing), for concern. Would I tell someone to follow the method he's used? No, I'm not that aggressive. But I have no problem supporting HIS choices because he's taken full responsibility for doing things way more aggressive than anyone here might think is "okay". Which I have done every time he has posted an update.

"Aggressive" works and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that it offers the greatest chance of remission. Just like with Lantus and Lev, an aggressive treatment method offers the best chance at remission. That doesn't mean "TR" for Prozinc. It means trying to get the numbers into lower ranges as quickly and as often as possible. It also means that every cat really is different, and each cat requires a different method of dosing. It means different doses on different BG preshots, and taking advantage of "long cycles". That's the way things used to be done in PZI. Look back at the oldest threads on this forum. And before that, on the old board that is no longer accessible, a whole lot of people did follow tight regulation for PZI. That's where most of my "thinking" comes from because I see that it worked. And although I wasn't posting here when Bob was diabetic, and most of those people were no longer around when I joined, I would have fit right in with them. I never asked for advice here. And that's not because I felt that the advice was "too conservative". It was because I (like Kevin) had total faith in my vet and her methods, which just happened to be aggressive. I had no clue that was true, it was just what I did.

And I really, really don't mean to sound harsh or critical by saying this, but I have always believed that if I had joined FDMB and immediately started asking for dose advice here, Bob would never have gone into remission. So that's why I am the lone voice in the wilderness trying to make people understand how I think.
In retrospect, I wish I had been more aggressive and that said each caregiver needs to be comfortable with what they can handle and be able to monitor. I understand that the advise givers need to feel Okay with what they are advising the beans to do.

I think everyone here is wonderful and appreciate all the advise and opinions I received. None of them fell of deaf ears.
 
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I've been watching Bubba over your shoulder for quite a while. You're doing an awesome job, and he's looking fantastic! Love the eye patch too.:D
 
I've been watching Bubba over your shoulder for quite a while. You're doing an awesome job, and he's looking fantastic! Love the eye patch too.:D
Well, I am extremely grateful that @Sue and Oliver (GA) planted the seed that Lantus could be a better fit for Bubba as she said it to me multiple times and to you @Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) that you nagged ( not really the right word) me to CHECK his ketones as you kept saying something was WRONG! I would have never thought to check ketones in the 200 range that he was stuck in.
 
Well, I am extremely grateful that @Sue and Oliver (GA) planted the seed that Lantus could be a better fit for Bubba as she said it to me multiple times and to you @Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) that you nagged ( not really the right word) me to CHECK his ketones as you kept saying something was WRONG! I would have never thought to check ketones in the 200 range that he was stuck in.
And I will always be happy that I was around to nag you ;). Also I'm happy that when "R" became a part of the equation, you had a couple of the greatest minds on the board guiding you and getting you through it!
You probably could have used R with Prozinc. The thought never crossed my mind, because since I've joined, nobody has ever used R and P together. Prozinc is better suited than the L insulins really, because it offers the flexibility of adjusting dose and shot times around your R shots, while (as you've seen), Lantus doesn't. What you had to do was keep the Lantus doses and shots constant, while trying to figure out exactly when it was safe and helpful to give the R. Lots of fun with a kitty who nadirs at +12, huh?

Years back, like 2009-2010, there were people here who used R. There are some old threads that I've found very interesting and informative. But now there's nobody here with practical experience with it any more.
The great thing is that the path you chose was best for Bubba, and that's what matters!
 
I am still here, and really enjoying reading all the posts! I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond to anyone, but I have enjoyed listening to the conversations… I've just been really busy with all of the kitties lately. Maybe I can catch up this weekend. :)
 
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