? Wynk low at +6.5

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Cara and Wynken (GA)

Cara and Wynken (GA)

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ran home at lunch and HAVE to go back to work. I will come home early if you guys think I should. Take a look... Usually nadir at +9... I better pretend to get sick and come home, right? Advise?
 
Tough call. Cara. It is a great nadir if he starts back up. Which he has done as often as he has nadired late. When will you be home tonight (+?)

Either stay home and watch or leave some food out so he can bring himself up if he drops low and leave work early?

The dose was great this am and should be fine, but he does surprise us......
 
Looks like you have to go back to work so I would leave out some food and try to get home early. He should be fine but if his pancreas is helping out, it is hard to know.

You might invest in an automatic feeder that you could set to feed every 2 hours on days like this. He seems to eat anything he sees, so that would spread it out.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Looks like you have to go back to work so I would leave out some food and try to get home early. He should be fine but if his pancreas is helping out, it is hard to know.

You might invest in an automatic feeder that you could set to feed every 2 hours on days like this. He seems to eat anything he sees, so that would spread it out.
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Yes, I had already left for work when I got your messages, but no big deal! I did not leave out any food, because I want to see what he does. I usually don't get home till +10 at the earliest… Or more usually at +11. I think I'll go back to my desk and stay for about an hour and then invent some excuse why I need to leave. That will put me home right about at +8. I don't expect him to dive in the next hour and a half, do you? Honestly, I suppose I could turn around go back home right now… What do you think?
 
I am guessing he will be fine. His pattern has not been to drop fast but to have a gentle drop until he is lower at nadir, or to nadir around +6 and then go back up. Either of those scenarios would keep him safe.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I am guessing he will be fine. His pattern has not been to drop fast but to have a gentle drop until he is lower at nadir, or to nadir around +6 and then go back up. Either of those scenarios would keep him safe.
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My gut also tells me this, so thanks for looking at his numbers and corroborating what I feel. It's actually a beautiful sunny day in the sunporch that they live on is really nice and feels good. Besides checking his blood sugar we also played with the Mousey on the wand and he and his sister had a fabulous time! :p I'm still going to try to be home here sometime in the next hour… Just to be sure. And also to find out whether he headed lower or whether he went back up, which might be valuable information later?
 
He's fine. Will check at +10, weigh at +11, and give him the *same dang meal* he ate this morning ;) after I check his PMPS.... (can you hear him complaining already? LOL)
 
My wacky "bouncing baby boy" went up tremendously at +10. It was so weird to see that value that I double checked it a couple minutes later. :confused: Yup. Pink. Quick too, since he was blue an hour ago... Or was THAT reading off? I have to run a different kitty to the vet at 5:15, but will be interested in Mr. Unpredictable's PMPS.:rolleyes:
 
Well, the good news that he had a normal nadir and stayed in that range for 3 hours. And yes, then up fast. I vote for a bounce as he has done it before, both up and dropping down by a bunch. Sir Wynken seems to like extremes.....

Will watch for the pmps.
 
Carol & Murphy said:
quite the roller coaster ride today, Cara.
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Yup. :eek::rolleyes::confused: And there's more....

This evening I got involved in rescuing a "dumped " DECLAWED cat at a low-income apt complex. It's supposed to get down in the teens tonight. Soooo... I'm suddenly missing almost 2 hours of my life! But the kitty is safe in my outbuilding which is warm, and she now has everything she needs. I hope she settles in. She seemed very afraid although I tried to get to know her while she was still in the carrier. Makes me mad... She is not feral! And I'm pretty sure that at one time she was cared for… ((sigh))

I built lots of spots for her with soft beds and once she explores she'll find she has a pretty good set up!
I know it happens thousands of times a day, but how can people declaw a cat? And then just abandon it in the outdoors in the winter? :mad:

This "crazy cat lady crap" is not for the weak of heart!
 
Cara and Wynken said:
Yup. :eek::rolleyes::confused: And there's more....

This evening I got involved in rescuing a "dumped " DECLAWED cat at a low-income apt complex. It's supposed to get down in the teens tonight. Soooo... I'm suddenly missing almost 2 hours of my life! But the kitty is safe in my outbuilding which is warm, and she now has everything she needs. I hope she settles in. She seemed very afraid although I tried to get to know her while she was still in the carrier. Makes me mad... She is not feral! And I'm pretty sure that at one time she was cared for… ((sigh))

I built lots of spots for her with soft beds and once she explores she'll find she has a pretty good set up!
I know it happens thousands of times a day, but how can people declaw a cat? And then just abandon it in the outdoors in the winter? :mad:

This "crazy cat lady crap" is not for the weak of heart!
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Oh, bless you for rescuing this poor abandoned baby - I hope she calms down. How long will she be with you?
 
Carol & Murphy said:
Oh, bless you for rescuing this poor abandoned baby - I hope she calms down. How long will she be with you?
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Well, I don't have any plans to keep her. Just to make sure that she's safe and warm. I really have far too many cats! And once I take one on, they're with me "furever" as Carl said. I have successfully found homes for many cat over the years. I am left with a lot of kitties that became mine, primarily because they were unadoptable. What no one really understands as they are the most perfect cats! :joyful:
I am too tired to check blood sugar before bed or during the night tonight. Hopefully tomorrow's cycle will not be a themepark thrill ride, like today was.
 
Oh Cara, thank you for taking care of that sweet baby! People who declaw cats just make me so mad...and then to just leave them at the mercy of the wild! Without their natural defenses! Grrrrr
 
Rachel said:
Oh Cara, thank you for taking care of that sweet baby! People who declaw cats just make me so mad...and then to just leave them at the mercy of the wild! Without their natural defenses! Grrrrr
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Here she is, Rachel! She hid all night and wouldn't come out this morning or at lunch when I buzzed home to check Wynk's BG. But tonight I woo-ed her out and she is SO SWEET!! I could just kill whoever abandoned her.
 

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Sharon14 said:
She's beautiful!!! I too have rescued lots of kitties through the years(have 14 now) so I know how hard it is to find good homes. Good luck!
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Sharon, we must share a gene. I had 14 cats for many years... Lost 3 last year and then took on what turned into a "foster failure." So I have 12 currently with 5 being 17+.
I have to find a home for her, as cute as she is, and SWEET personality!

Even though they all pull at my heartstrings, it wouldn't be fair to my others if I kept her. Too many of them need too much of my time! (Darn). :rolleyes:
 
Sharon14 said:
My oldest is 23.
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Twenty three! WOWZA. That is impressive (and wonderful!) I hear you about finding good homes. There is not a terribly strong spay-neuter awareness here in NW Ohio and there are many that are dumped or unwanted in the shelters. (((sigh))). Once they are under my control, though, they either get a good home, or I keep them. :cat:
 
His amps looks fine - only 20+points since the last two days. Your 1.8 looks good. Hope we can hold it for a few cycles and see if he settles in.

I am a big fan of two shootable shoots a day with a normal nadir time. So much easier to deal with than a late nadir, stalling and then having to skip. Hope this pattern continues.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
His amps looks fine - only 20+points since the last two days. Your 1.8 looks good. Hope we can hold it for a few cycles and see if he settles in.

I am a big fan of two shootable shoots a day with a normal nadir time. So much easier to deal with than a late nadir, stalling and then having to skip. Hope this pattern continues.
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I am a big fan of two shootable numbers a day too. That's why I feel that the sooner a caregiver gets comfortable with shooting lower numbers with a lower dose, the better. As far as when nadir happens, we can't control that. Given that the rate of insulin absorption can vary by up to 50% on any given cycle, and lots of other factors like food timing, amounts, carb content, what the pancreas is doing or not doing, etc?... nadir timing can be influenced, but not controlled.
 
I waited until 6:40..... 132 dammit.....

Now how come I can't assume (or check) that his blood glucose is higher in 20 minutes after I feed him and inject the insulin then? He is eating like a horse. His plate will be clean in about 4 minutes
 
All I can do is tell you what I would/wouldn't do. You get to decide for yourself. 132 on an AlphaTrak is low to shoot. Yes, he'll likely come up with food, but it's the food that will bring him up while the insulin is taking him down. It could mean a night of bringing him up with food, to keep his numbers up. IMHO, it's not safe or beneficial to do that. It is necessary when they hypo, but I wouldn't want to set up a scenario like that on purpose.

You might be able to give a token dose of .5 or lower, but then I would get tests tonight to make sure he stays in safe numbers.
 
Ok. That helps. I really don't get the technical reason for it - because every time I skipped shooting in the evening he's sky high later that nite and seriously high for the next AMPS. BUT I believe you and I trust you... And (selfishly) I ... want to sleep. ;)

Thank you Sue. :bighug:
 
If you didn't have to work tomorrow, I'd advise waiting 2 hours after he eats and if he is 150+, then give him a token dose. Then tomorrow, you'd need to check 12 hours since this new shot time and shoot when he is high enough. "Chasing" the number is a way to be more aggressive with ProZinc. (Waiting until he reaches your target). But it only works if you are around and can test. It's often the way cats go OTJ, on small doses, shooting when it is safe.

The good news is that his amps is generally lowering and he has some nice blues and greens stuck in there. Considering he has been on insulin several years, he is doing well. Maybe what today tells you is that 1.6 is a better dose for that 250-300 range. And maybe he needs a dose held for a couple days while he drops and rises and then settles.
 
Ah, I think I see the logic in that technique! How I wish I could just take the day off and try that! I just checked at +1 (which I never do) because I was curious. 219 :) I will check at +3 as well. May be good to know how fast he rises, with no juice, eating this particular meal. :D

Thanks for reminding me I did 1.8u this morning. I won't do that again, but just 1.6 for that range. What I actually have written down now is:

325+. 2u
225-325. 1.6u (just wrote "do not give 1.8" by that)
150-225. 1u

Question: what do you mean by "maybe he needs a dose held for a couple days" when it will depend on where he is in the table above? Or do you just mean don't give 1.8, when I should have given 1.6 like the mormings before?
 
I know it is hard to skip a dose and I hated to skip a dose too, so I decided that when I see a lower dose, I am going to start shooting. So at first, of course, I was not shooting anything under 200. Then I decided that I would shoot a token dose at 180 like a 0.2u. Typically, that was never enough so after a few shots at 180, I lowered the no shoot number to 160. I shot 0.20u and that seemed to work pretty good. When I got a 140 one time, I didn't want to stall so I thought I would shoot 0.2u. That worked good too. So one time I got a 130 and 0.2u worked good too. That is the lowest that I shot and I was using a human meter. Anyway, what I am trying to say is to slowly start to lower your no shoot number and start shooting and, of course, test to get the results. Even though Wynk is a little unpredictable, you still may be able to find your lowest number and you can stay with your regular 12 hour cycle.
 
I wish I'd seen this before now...

Back in a minute, gotta switch keyboards.
 
Now how come I can't assume (or check) that his blood glucose is higher in 20 minutes after I feed him and inject the insulin then? He is eating like a horse. His plate will be clean in about 4 minutes
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You could have. In fact, although we probably don't realize it, we do that every time we give insulin. We always know that the number will be higher, due to food, by the time the insulin kicks in 2 or 3 hours later. We just don't think about it when we see a "normal shootable number" at AMPS or PMPS.

I really don't get the technical reason for it - because every time I skipped shooting in the evening he's sky high later that nite and seriously high for the next AMPS.
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Exactly. Because the food pushes the number up, gives you a higher number that has got no insulin working against it, and next morning you see the effect of no insulin for 24 hours.

Thanks for reminding me I did 1.8u this morning. I won't do that again, but just 1.6 for that range.
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1.8 wasn't "too much", or at least you don't know that for sure. "Too much" would have been a dose that dropped him under 90, or under 68, or whatever number you decide is "under normal". SLGS says on an AT meter, you reduce the dose by default if a cat drops below 90. If you were following tight regulation for Lantus you'd reduce automatically if below 68 on an AT meter. Not sure what number gets an automatic reduction if you were following the TR protocol for Prozinc/PZI because nobody really follows that protocol here. Wynk might have gone lower in between +5 and PMPS, or he might have reached nadir at +12. No way to know for sure.

"Chasing" the number is a way to be more aggressive with ProZinc.
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Interesting that Sue mention this, and she is right that when a cat is close to going OTJ, it's a technique that some people use. Rather than wait until 12 hours later, people will determine that at some time after +12, when a cat reaches a specific BG number, they will give insulin before the number goes higher. They might end up shooting every 18 hours instead of every 12 hours, using small doses to keep the BG in low number ranges. Eventually, then don't need to shoot any more.
I say it is "interesting" because it is also what the Tight Regulation protocol for PZI calls for. The BIG difference is that people pick their "shoot number" and as soon as the cat gets that high, they shoot insulin. As long as it has been at least 6+ hours after the previous shot. They routinely shoot three times a day. The goal being to keep the numbers from ever getting "too high". Extremely aggressive protocol and requires LOTS of testing.

If you didn't have to work tomorrow, I'd advise waiting 2 hours after he eats and if he is 150+, then give him a token dose. Then tomorrow, you'd need to check 12 hours since this new shot time and shoot when he is high enough.
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Agree, sort of. If you were to do that, you'd be shooting at +14 instead of at +12. But you DON'T need to wait until 12 hours later, or create a "new" shot time the next shot. You can test at the normal shot time, and if the number is high enough, you could shoot. Technically, that would be at +10 from the previous shot, but it would be back to your "normal" schedule. There is no rule that says that you have to shoot Prozinc every 12 hours. It is supposed to last, according to the manufacturer, between 10-14 hours. Not 12. Today's cycle looks like it ran longer than 12 hours. Some cycles you might see it "poop out" and last only 10 hours. That doesn't mean you have to wait to shoot on the long cycles. And it doesn't mean you have to wait 12 hours to shoot on the short cycles. There isn't an insulin in the world that lasts 12 hours exactly for any cat. The primary reason behind a 12/12 cycle is because it works best for "human schedules". It inserts a degree of control and regularity into the diabetes treatment routine, it splits the day in half, and it helps us to evaluate the whole thing with some degree of control over what we are seeing.

Cats can't tell time. Their bodies don't work like clockwork. Time controls human lives, not the rest of the natural world.
 
Thank you for the additional food for thought, Cindi and Carl. I really appreciate all the info about how to think about this... He did go up to 390 at+3... it will be a few bouncing cycles, if his pattern holds... Sigh.

I feel like after not shooting, any progress getting him regulated basically gets erased, because he goes back to wild extremes... Blacks then blues and sometimes greens... Is this true, about losing progress towards regulating him? Or am I just making it seem worse than it is? :(
 
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It's not a huge setback. What you lose is "momentum". Sort of two steps forward, one step back, but not back to square one. Every day is a learning experience, so don't worry about it :)
 
Fine, really. Since I've been paying a lot more attention to him during all of this testing it seems to me he sleeps a lot -but he probably always has. Also he doesn't want to go outside into his outdoor enclosure as much, but that's probably because it's really cold outside now. He always perks up when he sees the sock filled with rice. He jumps right up on the wicker bench he gets tested on. Although sometimes he hates me messing with his ears he always holds still and lets me do it. I see him washing his face and looking outside the window. During times I've tried to get him to play with the mouse on the wand, he engages immediately and jumps around after it like I would want him to. So clinically, he's fine. :DThanks for asking!
 
Cara, if it helps to know, I would have skipped the dose too. On an AT, I would never have shot at the numbers you got.

I think Sue is saying that Wynk may need the dose to remain the same for a few cycles. Some cats need a few cycles to let the dose really start to work and bring them down. Again, it's an ECID thing...but something you could try.
 
Carol & Murphy said:
Hang in there, Cara. Back when I thought I could get Murphy regulated, these were the worst of the worst for me - low pmps and wondering what to do I would usually give a token dose after he ate
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Thanks Carol... I may start doing that in the evening if he's close to shoot able.. But only if I think I can drag myself out of bed to check him in the nite.
 
well, my thinking was that, just given a token dose (less than 1 unit) and after he ate & I checked it and he was high, I didn't have to worry that much I am not a fan of getting up in the middle of the night
 
Rachel said:
Cara, if it helps to know, I would have skipped the dose too. On an AT, I would never have shot at the numbers you got.

I think Sue is saying that Wynk may need the dose to remain the same for a few cycles. Some cats need a few cycles to let the dose really start to work and bring them down. Again, it's an ECID thing...but something you could try.
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How can she do that if she is using a scale for dosing? Which dose would you pick?
 
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