Vaquinha, 04/09/2021, +5 535

[Maleficia]

Hello,

I am new to this forum, I have tried to read as much as I can before making a post, so I wouldn't be asking the same questions everyone else already has, but I couldn't find an answer to it.

I am sorry, in advance, if this has already been asked and answered, also if I don't provide all the information, or as I should, but I promiss you I am doing my best.

My cat's name is Vaquinha, he is an eight year old who has been diagnosed with diabetes last July 30. I have been testing him as much as I can, but I work weird schedules, being away from home, sometimes, more than 12 hours. When he was diagnosed, the vet did a bloodwork, the only abnormal value he had was the glucose (at 400). He decided we could try to regulate his numbers just be adapting his diet (bought purina diabetic food, which he hated, started feeding him fish, shrimp, purina's canned diabetic food, mostly that).
Neurotic as I am, the first thing I did was go get a glucometer, so I could monitor his blood sugar. For 2 or so weeks we tried this, but his blood sugar was always at, around, 300/350, so August 15th I took him back to the vet. We decided we should start him on insulin, the vet didn't give me any options, he gave me caninsulin, to start him on 1 unit, every 12 hours, which I did. Again, since I am working very weird hours, I started at 8 am, so I could give the second shot at 8 pm, but soon realized that wouldn't work because I, sometimes, arrive home after that time, so my mother's been helping me out, we skipped a dose and now she is giving him the insulin at 12 am and 12 pm.

Since he stared the 1u of caninsulin, his blood sugar raised to 400's values, so I took him to the vet again on August 18th. He asked me to leave the cat there, so he could do the blood glucose curve. When I went to pick him up, he said that he was doing great on the 1 unit, his blood sugar dropped to the 200's after 6 hours... So I took him home, and, for me, the values are still the same, 400's. But at this point it's really hard to test the cat, because he got really stressed at the vet, and really afraid of being tested. So when I can test him, the values are increasing more and more, so I called the vet again, last week, and he advised me to increase to 2 units of caninsulin every 12 hours.

Now, I am still getting my cat to accept being tested, but when I magane to do it, his values raised to 500s with the 2 doses.

With this I started researching more on diabetes, and found this forum, and found that caninsulin isn't even indicated to manage cat diabetes, and I'm thinking maybe raising the dose 1u was too much, but I still can't find a reason why my cats blood sugar should increase with the insulin. I read about rebound, but I think that if that was that, his blood sugar should have, eventually normalized, but never did.

I need help, I feel my baby slipping away from me, if you have any advice, anything that can help me, please let me know. I don't have a lot of money, but I am willing to buy another insulin, if someone thinks that would help, if that is the problem. Taking him to another vet, I'm not sure would help, I live in a small island, we don't have big vet clinics here, my vet says they are care for 4 diabetic cats (including mine), and it's one of the biggest clinics over here...

I am sorry i dragged this post so much, and I am sorry if there are typos or something you don't understand, english is not my first language.

If you have any knowledge you can share, i really appreciate it.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Hello Maleficia we are glad you and Vaquinha are here! This is a great place to get help! I've tagged some friends and admins here who can help get you and your kitty headed in the right direction!

Did you post in the Welcome forum yet by chance? That is how admins keep track of the newbies.

@Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee @Bandit's Mom @Diane Tyler's Mom @Marje and Gracie @PerfumedCatMom

 

[tiffmaxee]

Welcome. You need to start on main/health with an intro. They will set you up with spreadsheet directions and signature directions too. You are correct that your insulin does not work well in cats. You need to get either Prozinc or Lantus. This forum is only for lantus and levimir users.
No need to retype what you just wrote when you start a thread on main/health. Just link this one. Hope to see you back here if you switch to lantus.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Welcome to FDMB!

I'd like to make a request. You are posting in a forum that is for cats that have been prescribed a different insulin than you are giving your cat. I'm going to shift this thread to our Health board which is where we ask everyone to start out. In addition, there are members there who are using Caninsulin. I'll post a bit more to respond to your questions once I move your thread.

 

[Maleficia]

I'm sorry I somehow got mixed up, i had both open, and made the post on the wrong one, I'm just really nervous about all this. What should I do first then?

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

It's wonderful that you've begun to test your cat's blood glucose and have a spreadsheet set up!! You've already made a good start!! I'd suggest reading this link on helping. us to help you. It will tell you how to set up your signature, there's information on setting up a spreadsheet which you've already done, and there's some additional basic information included.

First, your cat's insulin needs may change. Usually, cats need more than the dose they are started on. We increase doses by small amounts -- 0.25u. What is especially important is to ALWAYS get a test prior to giving an insulin shot. It's the only way you will know if it's safe to give insulin. Caninsulin is fast acting and does not have a long duration. (This is why it's to recommended for treatment of feline diabetes.) Because it can act quickly, it's very important to know if your cat is in safe numbers. It's also important to try to get at least one test each 12-hour cycle in addition to your pre-shot test (AMPS and PMPS). If you could start getting a test before you go to bed each night that would be very helpful.

Some cats do fine on Caninsulin. If you are interested in switching your cat to an insulin that's better suited to cats, Prozinc and Lantus (glargine) are recommended by the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of feline diabetes. Given how you've described your schedule, Prozinc may be a better choice since it's not quite as demanding with regard to sticking to a precise 12-hour schedule. If your mother is willing to help out, then it won't make a difference which insulin you choose. If you plan on continuing with Caninsulin, more information on its use can be found in this Beginners Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin.

What exactly are you feeding Vaquinha? Many of the prescription diabetic foods, especially the dry foods, are high in carbohydrates. If you are not feeing below 10% carbohydrate, it may be contributing to your cat's higher numbers. if you can tell us where you live, we have a variety of food charts that are helpful if you live outside of the US.

Please let us know how we can help. The members here are very generous with their time and knowledge. Please ask questions!

 

[Maleficia]

First, your cat's insulin needs may change. Usually, cats need more than the dose they are started on. We increase doses by small amounts -- 0.25u. What is especially important is to ALWAYS get a test prior to giving an insulin shot. It's the only way you will know if it's safe to give insulin. Caninsulin is fast acting and does not have a long duration. (This is why it's to recommended for treatment of feline diabetes.) Because it can act quickly, it's very important to know if your cat is in safe numbers. It's also important to try to get at least one test each 12-hour cycle in addition to your pre-shot test (AMPS and PMPS). If you could start getting a test before you go to bed each night that would be very helpful.

I am trying to test as much as I can, but Vaquinha got very stressed after I left him at the vet (he already wasn't a fan of testing), so I'm trying everything I can to help him get used, but he still is very unconfortable, I don't even know to what degree his BG numbers are altered by his stress. Anyway my other big issue, is that I'm not home for one of his tests, and my mother can't test him, mostly because he scratches and bites, and does everything to get out of testing (which I can withstand, but she can't), also she gets stressed which stresses him more. Still I always test before the other test, and, soon, I'll be able to be home more often.

ome cats do fine on Caninsulin. If you are interested in switching your cat to an insulin that's better suited to cats, Prozinc and Lantus (glargine) are recommended by the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of feline diabetes. Given how you've described your schedule, Prozinc may be a better choice since it's not quite as demanding with regard to sticking to a precise 12-hour schedule. If your mother is willing to help out, then it won't make a difference which insulin you choose. If you plan on continuing with Caninsulin, more information on its use can be found in this Beginners Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin.

What exactly are you feeding Vaquinha? Many of the prescription diabetic foods, especially the dry foods, are high in carbohydrates. If you are not feeing below 10% carbohydrate, it may be contributing to your cat's higher numbers. if you can tell us where you live, we have a variety of food charts that are helpful if you live outside of the US.

I do plan on switching insulin, but I don't think my vet has another one available, he didn't ask me which insuline I preferred or talked about it, he just gave me caninsulin, as if it were the only one. We have, at least, lantus, here in Portugal, but Prozinc I can't find, I googled it, anyway, I'll contact the vet on monday just to make sure.

I am feeding Vaquinha canned food (Purina Diabetic I bought in the vet) and dry food, also Purina's Diabetic, but that one he doesn't eat unless he's really hungry. I have also been feeding him boilled fish and shrimp, which he loves.

I live in Azores, Portugal, the only diabetic food I was able to find here was the purina brand, I called most the vets, and they don't sell anything else. If you have a food chart that might help me I'd appreciate it, since I don't know what else to feed him.

Please let us know how we can help. The members here are very generous with their time and knowledge. Please ask questions!

My main question is, that it feels like my cat's BG is getting higher with the insulin, instead of the same or lower, and that seems really weird, could something be causing it?


Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Lantus is a very good insulin for cats. It does not give you a great deal of flexibility with regard to shot times, though. Prozinc is now available in England but I don't know if it's widely available in Europe.

One possible explanation for why your cat's numbers are higher may be due to what we call a "bounce." If your cat is dropping into lower numbers at times when you're unable to test, iit may seem like the insulin isn't working. What can happen is that if numbers drop into a range your cat isn't used to, the liver and pancreas release a stored form of glucose along with co9unterregulatory hormones that cause numbers to spike upward. It can take up to 3 days/6 cycles for numbers to come back down.

Are you giving Vacquinha treats when you test? Many people will use a freeze dried protein (e.g., chicken) or any low carbohydrate treat as a reward for their testing their kitty.

You do not need to feed a prescription food. Most of the "diabetic" foods contain nothing special that's appropriate to diabetes. The Purina DM canned food is about 7% carbohydrate. That's appropriate for a diabetic cat. The dry version is very high in carbohydrates. We do not recommend feeding cats dried food -- there are only a few dry foods that are low I carbohydrates. I'm tagging a member who lives in Spain -- @Gill & George. She may be able to assist you with some foods that are available in Portugal.l

Also, do you have syringes or are you dosing using the insulin pen. If you're using the pen, you need to get syringes. We change doses in 0.25u increments and you can't do that with the pens.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

It's great to see you are starting to home test, and have started a spreadsheet. This data will help us help you better. My cat was on Caninsulin at first, and it didn't last long in her, so she was always high around shot times, and a good amount of time before hand. Lantus was a great improvement.

Here is a list of better foods for diabetics. It is listed as UK foods, but also contains some available in Europe: UK Cat Food List

 

[Maleficia]

Lantus is a very good insulin for cats. It does not give you a great deal of flexibility with regard to shot times, though. Prozinc is now available in England but I don't know if it's widely available in Europe.

One possible explanation for why your cat's numbers are higher may be due to what we call a "bounce." If your cat is dropping into lower numbers at times when you're unable to test, iit may seem like the insulin isn't working. What can happen is that if numbers drop into a range your cat isn't used to, the liver and pancreas release a stored form of glucose along with co9unterregulatory hormones that cause numbers to spike upward. It can take up to 3 days/6 cycles for numbers to come back down.

Are you giving Vacquinha treats when you test? Many people will use a freeze dried protein (e.g., chicken) or any low carbohydrate treat as a reward for their testing their kitty.

You do not need to feed a prescription food. Most of the "diabetic" foods contain nothing special that's appropriate to diabetes. The Purina DM canned food is about 7% carbohydrate. That's appropriate for a diabetic cat. The dry version is very high in carbohydrates. We do not recommend feeding cats dried food -- there are only a few dry foods that are low I carbohydrates. I'm tagging a member who lives in Spain -- @Gill & George. She may be able to assist you with some foods that are available in Portugal.l

Also, do you have syringes or are you dosing using the insulin pen. If you're using the pen, you need to get syringes. We change doses in 0.25u increments and you can't do that with the pens.

I will monitor for a few more days and try to test more, but I'm really thinking about changing insulin, because this one is working for him.

I always give him treats after each test, and last few have actually been very successful, only have to prick him once to get enough blood, started using the heated rice, but he still always wants to scratch me when he feels me touch his ear. I've been giving him a treat, i think it's called octupuss, I think it's basicly squid and dried chicken.

I have syringes, but they are pretty small and only mark units, not halfs or 0.25, so I think it'll be pretty hard to measure the 0.25u or even 0.5u, I think maybe i'll be able to find different syringes somewhere.

Thank you so much for the help, this is all a lot of new information, so it's taking me a while to get used to all.

 

[Maleficia]

It's great to see you are starting to home test, and have started a spreadsheet. This data will help us help you better. My cat was on Caninsulin at first, and it didn't last long in her, so she was always high around shot times, and a good amount of time before hand. Lantus was a great improvement.

Here is a list of better foods for diabetics. It is listed as UK foods, but also contains some available in Europe: UK Cat Food List

Thank you so much for the list, I've already found some foods my cat has eaten and loves! I'm really afraid because my cat only weights about 4.5 Kgs, 10 pounds, and I think he is still losing weight. He was never fat, but he was healthy, and now he is getting so skinny, it's conforting to have knowledge of more things he can eat.

I'm thinking about switching to lantus because my cat, I think, has a very fast metabolism, maybe caninsulin is working for very little time and he isn't improving at all.

Again, thank you for your help!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I'm glad Wendy provided the UK food list. You want to feed your cat foods that are under 10% carbohydrate and many people here feed their cat around 5%. You'll also want to have higher carb food available if you need to raise Vaquinha's numbers quickly. Foods that are medium carb are in the 10 - 15% range and over 15% is considered high carb. You can use corn syrup or any other form of simple sugar/syrup that you have.

It's also fine to feed your cat more often than you may have been doing. Cats can lose weight due to diabetes and some will even lose weight when they are switched to a more species appropriate diet (high protein, low carb).

As you're observing, Caninsulin doesn't last 12 hours in most cats. Lantus has a longer duration. Also, if you are switching to Lantus, you will need U100 syringes. Caninsulin uses U40 syringes. When you switch, see if you can order syringes with half unit markings.

Also, there are no syringes that are in 0.25u increments. The best we can do is 0.5u increments. A lot of the members here will use magnifying glasses ("readers or magnifiers that are used for crafts to see the lines on the syringes more clearly. You can also use digital calipers to help measure doses.

 

[Maleficia]

I'm glad Wendy provided the UK food list. You want to feed your cat foods that are under 10% carbohydrate and many people here feed their cat around 5%. You'll also want to have higher carb food available if you need to raise Vaquinha's numbers quickly. Foods that are medium carb are in the 10 - 15% range and over 15% is considered high carb. You can use corn syrup or any other form of simple sugar/syrup that you have.

It's also fine to feed your cat more often than you may have been doing. Cats can lose weight due to diabetes and some will even lose weight when they are switched to a more species appropriate diet (high protein, low carb).

I've been trying to find low carb foods here, but I'm having a hard time, but I'll research it better.

Vaquinha is eating a lot, and I'm giving him as much as he wants, I've just removed mostly all dry food, I feel like his BG is slowly getting lower, but it's still in the 300s.

As you're observing, Caninsulin doesn't last 12 hours in most cats. Lantus has a longer duration. Also, if you are switching to Lantus, you will need U100 syringes. Caninsulin uses U40 syringes. When you switch, see if you can order syringes with half unit markings.

Also, there are no syringes that are in 0.25u increments. The best we can do is 0.5u increments. A lot of the members here will use magnifying glasses ("readers or magnifiers that are used for crafts to see the lines on the syringes more clearly. You can also use digital calipers to help measure doses.

I'm still trying to find everything here or online so I can make the switch. Because I live in an island some websites don't ship here, which makes it a little harder, but I'll figure it out.


Thank you so much for all your help, I'm still a little nervous, but feeling calmer now.

 

[Gill & George]

Hi Helena,
I'm glad Wendy provided you with the list, most foods are available across Europe.

However, I imagine that like some of our members in the Canary Islands you struggle to get products that are easily availble in mainland Europe.
Will Zooplus Portugal deliver to the Azores? They do deliver to the canary islands so might be worth investigating.

Another option worth considering, if you are not able to source low carbohydrate food, is feeding a homemade diet, but you will need to source some supplements to make sure that you feed a nutritionally complete food. If you want to investigate this option further let us know, I don't feed a homemade diet but many here do and will be able to help yo with that.