To much insulin?

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AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
 
Nice...I'm glad she's coming up.

Crystal...it's still early in the cycle and onset could be when she dropped or she could be one that onsets at +3. Also, the honey will wear off so I would like you to go ahead and give her more LC food...about one tbsp with another drop of honey. Again, I want to abort the cycle because she has earned a reduction and I would like her a little higher.

After she eats, please retest in 30 minutes and post. We will be waiting. You are doing really great.

Luscious doing ok?
 
Carl & Bob said:
AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
Click to expand...

yeah sorry im not used to the hour number stuff ...

ice...I'm glad she's coming up.

Crystal...it's still early in the cycle and onset could be when she dropped or she could be one that onsets at +3. Also, the honey will wear off so I would like you to go ahead and give her more LC food...about one tbsp with another drop of honey. Again, I want to abort the cycle because she has earned a reduction and I would like her a little higher.

After she eats,p,ease retest in 30 minutes and post. We will be waiting. You are doing really great.

Luscious doing ok?
Click to expand...

Ok i will give her a little more food with honey again and test in 30min..
Luscious is doing good.. watching me because her can is open lol... she sure does love to eat lol
 
OK, Crystal.

That would make your next test right at the stroke of 1AM, which should be her +4. We'll keep an eye out for it.

Carl
 
Crystal

While we are waiting, can you please give us an idea of your dosing? Have you consistently been giving 1.5u and for how long (how many cycles if there are two 12-hour cycles in a day)?

Any information you can give us as to your dosing strategy and the kinds of numbers you've been getting will help us. Thank you.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Crystal

While we are waiting, can you please give us an idea of your dosing? Have you consistently been giving 1.5u and for how long (how many cycles if there are two 12-hour cycles in a day)?

Any information you can give us as to your dosing strategy and the kinds of numbers you've been getting will help us. Thank you.
Click to expand...

She gets two 12 hour cycles..
Shes only been on insulin since 11/11/2012
i usually test her and go by a chart my vet gave me .. you have to follow from your last dosage ..
+216 - increase .5 units
100-216 no change
80-99 decrease .5
60-79 decrease 1
-60 skip dose

since 12/8/2012 shes been maintaining on 1 unit .. or 1.5
 
Oh gosh...no disrespect to your vet but that is not the way to dose this insulin. We don't use sliding scales, we don't dose on the preshot....is that the number he's asking you to dose on in that scale?

After this next test, I have some other questions for you if that's ok. See you in a few.
 
ok
+4 is 88

so its
AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
+4 88
 
88 is great!

Rather than ask some of the same questions Marje is likely to ask, I'll hold off on that for now. ;-)

Carl
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Oh gosh...no disrespect to your vet but that is not the way to dose this insulin. We don't use sliding scales, we don't dose on the preshot....is that the number he's asking you to dose on in that scale?

After this next test, I have some other questions for you if that's ok. See you in a few.
Click to expand...

yeah he says to test before i give dosage.. they started me on .5
and depending the numbers i will up it or lower it ..

example: if she was on 1 unit and goes to 280 i will up it .5 so she will get 1.5
and next 12hrs if shes 218 up again .5 so it will be 2.00 units
and then the next 12hrs if she drops to 85 then she drops .5 and gets 1 unit
and the next 12 hrs if she drops to 50 i skip dose and the next 12 hrs i start again at .5

sure you can ask me anything
 
Great! How is she doing.....is she still hungry?

You are at +4 and that is still early in the cycle. The 88 is from the honey/syrup. My guess is she will come back down as she gets to her nadir but without data, we don't know if her nadir is early or later.

If she's still hungry, it would be good to give her another tsp or so of food only to see if we can get her to just hold her numbers. Then test in another 30 minutes.

Is she doing ok with the tests?
 
Carl & Bob said:
88 is great!

Rather than ask some of the same questions Marje is likely to ask, I'll hold off on that for now. ;-)

Carl
Click to expand...

YAY!! :RAHCAT
so should i hold on the next honey?
 
See my above post. Sometimes we cross post so it's always good to scroll back to your last post and make sure you've read everything.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Great! How is she doing.....is she still hungry?

You are at +4 and that is still early in the cycle. The 88 is from the honey/syrup. My guess is she will come back down as she gets to her nadir but without data, we don't know if her nadir is early or later.

If she's still hungry, it would be good to give her another tsp or so of food only to see if we can get her to just hold her numbers. Then test in another 30 minutes.

Is she doing ok with the tests?
Click to expand...

Shes doing good.. Sleeping right now .. shes doing good with the shots since shes getting all these treats lol

ok so give her some more now? and test at 30? or wait before i feed her honey again since shes not asking?
 
Feed another tsp of LC and test in 30. I want you to stay on the tests right now. And the food is important o try and keep her from coming back down it we want to be careful so she does not get sick.

Is she a vomited or does she do well with food, etc. any health issues we should know about?
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Feed another tsp of LC and test in 30. I want you to stay on the tests right now. And the food is important o try and keep her from coming back down it we want to be careful so she does not get sick.

Is she a vomited or does she do well with food, etc. any health issues we should know about?
Click to expand...


no shes not vomiting .. shes sleeping right now... should i add the honey to the FF? or just the FF no honey?
 
Crystal

It's important to read through the instructions carefully...no honey right now. Just food. I don't want to make her sick and want to see if she can hold with just food. If you wait too long to feed her, she could come back down.

Have you fed her the FF?
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Crystal

It's important to read through the instructions carefully...no honey right now. Just food. I don't want to make her sick and want to see if she can hold with just food. If you wait too long to feed her, she could come back down.

Have you fed her the FF?
Click to expand...

ok got it... Just gave her the rest of her ff .. was about a table spoon left .. is that good enough?
 
I fed her at 1:30 . I have about 20 min left to test
im running a little low on test strips but ill have to buy tmm

i have food, yes

Shes doing well.. Ate and went back to sleep ... Lucky her lol
 
Crystal,
You may have misunderstood given all the excitement... but you want to test every 30 minutes whether you've fed more or not. I think the last test you did was at 1am, so you could have tested at 1:30 as well, then again at 2am

carl
 
How low on test strips? Can you send someone out for more? If you don't have about 50 strips on hand or can get them tonight, then you should consider a trip to the ER with her.

Lantus overdoses can last up to 16 hours. She might go up, come down, go up, etc. we will have you testing alot until she is safely way up. If you don't have strips, you need to go to the ER.
 
Carl & Bob said:
Crystal,
You may have misunderstood given all the excitement... but you want to test every 30 minutes whether you've fed more or not. I think the last test you did was at 1am, so you could have tested at 1:30 as well, then again at 2am

carl
Click to expand...

oh ok...
i thought it was every time she ate
Ok i tested her now and shes 113

AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
+4 88
+4.3 113 (did i add the hour right?)
 
Did you see this?

How low on test strips? Can you send someone out for more? If you don't have about 50 strips on hand or can get them tonight, then you should consider a trip to the ER with her.

Lantus overdoses can last up to 16 hours. She might go up, come down, go up, etc. we will have you testing alot until she is safely way up. If you don't have strips, you need to go to the ER.
Click to expand...

we want to test every 30 mins whether you feed or not. Could you please let me know when the last time you fed her?
 
AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
+4 88
+4.75 113 (it's been 45 minutes since the 1am +4)
:-D
Carl
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Did you see this?

How low on test strips? Can you send someone out for more? If you don't have about 50 strips on hand or can get them tonight, then you should consider a trip to the ER with her.

Lantus overdoses can last up to 16 hours. She might go up, come down, go up, etc. we will have you testing alot until she is safely way up. If you don't have strips, you need to go to the ER.
Click to expand...

we want to test every 30 mins whether you feed or not. Could you please let me know when the last time you fed her?
Click to expand...


i feed her at 1:30am last
 
i have someone that can go get me some strips when i run out
Click to expand...
You want to send them before you run out for sure.
They should also pick up a couple of cans of high carb gravy-style food.

Carl
 
Crystal

I'd like to lay this out for you now that she is up a bit.

1. Lantus overdoses can last a very, very long time
2. We don't have any data on what you've been shooting, what kinds of numbers she's been having mid cycle, etc
3. You don't have many test strips
4. It's possible if she comes back down and we are feeding and giving honey, that she will vomit. Then we have a problem.
5. Hypos are very serious and can be life threatening. She can come back down on us at any time and quickly. Sometimes they do not respond so quickly to honey as she did earlier.

She is at a safe number now and you can safely transport her to the ER. My recommendation is that you take her now.
 
She us at a safe number now and you can safely transport her to the ER. My recommendation is that you take her now.
Click to expand...

I think I have to agree with Marje. If this were just a "normal" low number early in the cycle case, I'd feel confident that things would continue to go just the way we'd like them too.

But with no hard data to know what/how she's reacted to low numbers before tonight, and not positive exactly what the dose you gave tonight was, it's impossible to say if this is a short or long term fight you have on your hands in keeping her numbers up safely. You'd have to stay up all night to be safe.

Carl
 
yeah im going to test her again and she wear she is .... then decide what to do...
Oh boy am i never going to do this again!

Thank you guys for helping me so much!
 
OK, after all the dust has settled, and you can get back to "normal", there are three things I'd like you to try to do.

1 - buy a couple cans of medium and high carb food for your "hypo kit"
2 - try to set up a google spreadsheet so you can record all the numbers. That is a huge help to you and to anyone who looks at it. It makes this soooo much easier and less stressful for you.
3 - let's try to help you figure out a better dose plan than the one you're using, where there's dose consistency based on the mid-cycle and nadir numbers and not on the pre-shot numbers.

Those 3 things will really, really help you out. :smile:

Carl
 
AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
+4 88
+4.75 113
+5.4 194

And the last time you fed her, it was at 1:30 which would have been at +4.5, correct?

Carl
 
Carl & Bob said:
AMPS (1.5u) 103
PMPS (might have been 2.5u but not sure) 114
+.5 145
+2 74
+2.75 45
+3.3 54
+4 88
+4.75 113
+5.4 194

And the last time you fed her, it was at 1:30 which would have been at +4.5, correct?

Carl
Click to expand...

yes ... i fed her at 1.30 (4.5)
Thats good right? a hour after feeding and shes going up
 
Yes, it is good!

I think I would hold off on more food, and test again 30 minutes after this latest test (so about 2:50am)? Let's see what Marje thinks first though...

Carl
 
Crystal,

What kind of meter are you using? How many do you have left? And is the store you buy them at open 24 hours?
 
Crystal

Some info for you about using lantus.

Lantus is a depot insulin and it works best for your kitty with consistent dosing. We typically hold doses for six cycles and then reevaluate to determine if dose needs to go up or not. Specific numbers warrant reductions. We usually only increase and decrease by .25u (unless BG is really high) so we don't miss the fitting dose.

We dose primarily on the nadir with some consideration of the preshot. I've seen cats be 300 at the AM preshot, 40 at mid cycle, and 300 at PM preshot. If we dosed on the preshot, the cat might possibly drop even lower than 40.

On this board, we live feline diabetes 24/7. Vets do not and they do not typically stay on top of the treatment for FD. We follow a protocol based on scientific research which was published in a veterinary journal. Most vets are happy for you to keep the cat above 200. But for some cats, above that number is above Renal threshold where they dump sugar in their urine putting them at increased risk of urinary tract infections. Those of us using tight regulation, aim for our cats to be in the 50-120 range.

Luscious has the potential to go into remission and tight regulation is the best way to get there and w can help her and you. I hope you will at least understand that dosing on a sliding scale is not how this insulin works and it is important to get preshot and mid cycle tests. For those who work, we can help with other test times.

Please let us know what you wish to do tonight.

Edited to add: I'm signing off now...I've been sick and am just starting to recuperate. Carl is going to stay. You are in awesome hands. Good luck.
 
Still here, Crystal. Hoping everything is ok?
Carl
 
Crystal
I'm thinking you either brought Luscious to the ER, or gave in to exhaustion..

Please let us know how you're both doing when you see this.

Hope you're fine,
Carl
 
Carl & Bob said:
Crystal
I'm thinking you either brought Luscious to the ER, or gave in to exhaustion..

Please let us know how you're both doing when you see this.

Hope you're fine,
Carl
Click to expand...

Oh geez i had fell asleep on the sofa ... she was by me the whole time. Woke this morning to test her and she was at 410 - she just had her breakfast
Thank you all so much for helping me!! Im so happy she got back up and i didnt have to rush her to the Vet.. She gets extremely stressed at the vets.

i believe she should be fine now .. had me so scared! thank you again!! without you guys i would have been lost
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Crystal

Some info for you about using lantus.

Lantus is a depot insulin and it works best for your kitty with consistent dosing. We typically hold doses for six cycles and then reevaluate to determine if dose needs to go up or not. Specific numbers warrant reductions. We usually only increase and decrease by .25u (unless BG is really high) so we don't miss the fitting dose.

We dose primarily on the nadir with some consideration of the preshot. I've seen cats be 300 at the AM preshot, 40 at mid cycle, and 300 at PM preshot. If we dosed on the nadir, the cat might possibly drop even lower than 40.

On this board, we live feline diabetes 24/7. Vets do not and they do not typically stay on top of the treatment for FD. We follow a protocol based on scientific research which was published in a veterinary journal. Most vets are happy for you to keep the cat above 200. But for some cats, above that number is above Neal threshold where they dump sugar in their urine putting them at increased risk of urinary tract infections. Those of us using tight regulation, aim for our cats to be in the 50-120 range.

Luscious has the potential to go into remission and tight regulation is the best way to get there and w can help her and you. I hope you will at least understand that dosing on a sliding scale is not how this insulin works and it is important to get preshot and mid cycle tests. For those who work, we can help with other test times.

Please let us know what you wish to do tonight.

Edited to add: I'm signing off now...I've been sick and am just starting to recuperate. Carl is going to stay. You are in awesome hands. Good luck.
Click to expand...


so i will determine the dosage by nadir? how will i know how much to up her or lower her?

and thank you also for all your help! you guys have made me calmer then i would have been by myself at this
 
Just saw this thread this morning....Boy what a wild ride you had last night but you did great!!!!

Now to answer your last question...With Lantus you hold a dose for several days usually 3 to 5 days and then run a curve (testing every 2 hours between shots) it is that nadir that you base whether you go up or down. Now that things are calmer I highly recommend that you move over to the Lantus TR group and read all the stickies over they will tell you exactly how to raise or lower a dose based on the results of your curves. With Lantus preshots are only use to decide if they are high enough to give insulin to in the first place. Dose raises or decreases are based on the nadir (lowest point in the cycle).

When first starting out and not having a lot of data we recommend you don't give insulin if they are under 200 at preshot. Many of us do shoot under that 200 mark but we have months and months of data from testing them at home.

And always when in doubt you can post here and just like last night someone will help you out.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Just a few corrections to what Mel said. We don't necessarily have you run a curve after 3-5 days at a dose. Spot checks work just fine for us to see what is going on. Starting out, we would have you do a preshot, +3, +6, +9 and then we would have you spot check a few other times the next cycle.

Also, for tight regulation, we advise our new members to post if they get a 150 or below and let us walk them through it.

We urge you to start a Spreadsheet as soon as you can and fill in as many numbers as you have so we can help you figure out a dose.

If you have not shot yet this morning, I'd go ahead and shoot the 1.5u because she is so darned high. That will help a little with that bounce.

And could you please take off the 911 for us? All is good and it will continue to draw more people who could be helping someone else since the emergency is over.

Thank you so much, Crystal, and I hope we see you in the TR forum.
 
Your vet had you giving Lantus on a sliding scale and that is incorrect.

The ideal dose of Lantus can be given every 12 hours and doesn't take the glucose too low. The Tight Regulation protocol for finding that dose is explained here.
 
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