Thumper 7/25

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Barbara

Barbara

Very Active Member
AMPS - 452
shot 1.2
PMPS - 364
shot 1.2

So why is it she keeps getting these high PS #'s? Of course I can't get any mid cycle readings on her during the week, the best I can do is a +4 or 5. I'm really tired of this dance. Joanna, I was reading your posts earlier & what you say makes sense about shooting too low but I just don't get it. I would like to shoot higher to get her out of these high #'s but I really don't understand how I'm supposed to know if I should increase or hold because of a bounce. I certainly don't want any DKA's but I never know what to do. Is it just me? There are too many variables...too many answers to one dilema?? Good Lord, sometimes recently I have thought I might have been better off to be ignorant of the whole thing...just do what the vet told me & shoot 2 units but then I know what would happen. BUT, I also wonder what about the people that just shoot blind? The lady that waited on me at Wal Mart the other day said she had a diabetic cat...it was a few years ago but she was surprised at me testing. I didn't ask her what happened to her cat but there are so many out there that just follow their vets advice...are they just lucky?
 
It seems that we are having the same type of day Barbara...
I am feeling exactly like you are..
tired, confused....what is the best thing for us to do
?

I know no one can answer these for us..but it feels kinda good to at least putit out there
and know that you are not the only one feeling this way...
:YMSIGH: :sad:
It is so frustrating, I am am so nervous now, after reading about Alex this moring..
I am scared, frustrated, mad, tired...shall I go on...

anyway, before I get you any more down than you are...(sorry)
hang in there..we know it will get better, it will just take some time
try to have a good night and relax!
Denise and Shakes
 
Okay, perk up!!!!

I have had the same feelings sometimes, wondering would it just be better to just test, be sure Kitty is safe and shoot a dose that is safe. But, we all know that is not the right thing to do---that is why we meet here. We cannot take one experience and all lose what we have learned and gained by being here. Kitty survived DKA and so will Alex. But we can't get gun shy because of what happens to a kitty....ECID---in every aspect. We must each treat our own kitties and provide them what works best, that might be a low dose or it might be a high dose....but, we can' t pattern our treatment around one incident.

We might not have the most experienced ISG, but we can support each other and help each other make informed decisions. I have been here almost 6 months now, whenI first got here I thought every shot was life or death. It is not, we are doing the best we can.

Keep your heads up....all of you, me too----- don't panic. We all have good days and bad days.....Just do the best you can!

Keep testing, keeping posting, check for ketones and have some wine.......we will be okay!
 
I'm down in the dumps too, ladies, so Kim, thanks for the pep talk.

I just went Krogering to get a bottle of wine. The old man behind the counter told me to buy another and he'd join me. Right!
 
We can't give in, life is hard and it is even harder when you are dealing with the well being of your furbaby.

Prozinc is so new that no one really understands it. We don't have the resources to pull from that the L groups do, but the West wouldn't have been discovered without pioneers. It is hard, there is no protocal.

We just need to keep our heads up, support each other and lean on the people that are willing to lead us.

I promise we will be okay......together!
 
Well said Kim, ECID is true for every ISG we have the added problem that Prozinc has only been on the market for less than 2 years so there is no firmley set protocol, yet. We are going to have to figure this out on our own just like the Lev folks did before us.

We have wasted all of this time treating PZ like all the other versions of PZ before Prozinc and are now realizing that it isn't exactly like any of the other PZ's.

Sue tried to start a think thank about Prozinc but it was squashed, I thought it was a great idea because all of you who are now shooting Prozinc ARE the experts, you are seeing the effects and results twice a day.

We as a group have suffered a set back with Alex being at the ER Vet but Kim caught it and averted a much more serious situation. Thank you Kim. We can't let that beat us up.

We need to pull together and figure this out. I'm going to start another think tank thread in Sue's honor, after I test and shoot. Start putting your thinking caps on.
 
Well said, Kim. I think we've got a lot to be thankful for around here! We've got a good supportive group. We've got good experience with TID dosing, something not present elsewhere. We've got some great experts and a lot of collective experience! I can't thank everyone enough for just hanging around my thread yesterday while I tried to figure out what the heck was going on with Shaikha. You all were there, and though we didn't all agree, it came together. She's up to 0.7U and I may actually increase her to 0.8U tonight since she's still running a little flat. Heck, she confused me yesterday, and I know her best! She just threw a sudden curve ball, that's all. That's my girl. The same thing seemed to happen with Alex. Something just wasn't right and it threw off his system. It happens. You can't predict everything, you know?

Remember that we've got a couple of kitties on this board who are juggling multiple conditions. We also have several very big gulpers with histories of DKA and a few new ones who we don't know that well yet and are trying to figure out. Even if you have the most well-balanced cat out there, an infection or something like pancreatitis can send what was working right out the window. That's part of the dance we end up doing, right?

I think we are doing pretty darn good!! So perk up, okay? That's a order. :mrgreen:
 
Hi Guys,
I'm so sorry your all having a tough time.
Many peeps here have left, moved on to levemir primarily, or lantus.
I prefer Levemir.
I don't think there is a single one who is looking back with regret.
For those that are considering a change, it could be the PZ is just not a good insulin...not very stable.
Please don't take this personally, I'm talking about an insulin, not a personality.
Tom went from near daily 600's to basic greens and blues...you can see his ss to see how it happened.
If anyone is interested, just say and I'll do whatever I can to help.
I tried everything with PZ and I left exhuasted.
Lori
and tomtom
 
Sorry you are all having such a hard time. I certainly remember having the feeling sometimes that ignorance would be bliss! But lucky for your kitties, you are not that type of mama beans. So you test and test and agonize over doses. I think it would be good to keep testing and reduce the agonizing, but I know how hard those dose decisions are. I do think that you don't give yourselves enough credit for what unusually committed mama beans you are--- you take being crazy cat internet ladies (and/or gents) for granted. But it should be appreciated and prized.

I read some of the thread Joanna cited in think tank. If you are mostly fed up now, maybe you might consider what decisions you would make if you took the possibility of rebound out of the picture. There seems to be some experienced opinion that maybe it doesn't exist, and that people are routinely under dosing. Do you think it might be worth giving it, say, a two or three week trial?
 
judy and squamee(GA) said:
I read some of the thread Joanna cited in think tank. If you are mostly fed up now, maybe you might consider what decisions you would make if you took the possibility of rebound out of the picture. There seems to be some experienced opinion that maybe it doesn't exist, and that people are routinely under dosing. Do you think it might be worth giving it, say, a two or three week trial?
Click to expand...

I didn't read the entire thread but that's exactly what I'm getting at....rebound/bounce...I don't even know what the difference is? And, it would be a whole lot easier if that were out of the picture. It would appear to me Thumper needs more insulin...but then there's the bounce issue. And, how long do I stay at a dose before I increase again? I get that there are gonna be curve balls...cats are gonna get infections or mystery illnesses like Thumper, but on a daily basis I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. Maybe I'm just hard headed....or blonde....but why are there two different answers for high BG's? I read the link Marcie put on someone's thread & it talks about damage that happens when BG is consistently high, like Thumper's have been BUT how do I get her BG down? I don't have her SS open right now but I think it's been 2 weeks she's been high so how do I get more agressive about shooting insulin when I don't know if it's bounce or that she truly needs more? Am I repeating myself? I think I am. :smile:
 
well. what if you make a plan to try increasing and see if that works? since that is something that joanna seems to be in favor of, you could tell her that is what you are going to try and ask her to keep an eye out.
 
Barbara, FWIW rebound and bounce are the same thing.
There is no difference....liver producing glucose to protect body from low, or percieved low numbers.
If you are concerned about these 2 words meaning different things look it up in the lantus 'slang dictionary'
 
IMO bounce is only an issue if you have steep drops or low numbers. Both of those are undesireable in and of themselves, and can cause rebound. So if you are getting those problems really you have to make a change to avert those (people report that steep drops make you feel rotten), the rebound is incidental. In those cases you basically have to reduce the dose, you have no choice. To counter things, if reducing does not give you good numbers, you can shoot early to get enough insulin in them before their PSs rise and you get to big swings, or you can try a longer-acting insulin.

The other kind of bounce, liver training, you really just ignore. You don't raise the dose, but you don't lower it either, you just ride it out.

The problem that I see that is a more troubling one to me is the "resistance to a dose" thing, where sometimes we see a cat get better numbers on a slightly lower dose, when there really is no real sign of rebound or a clear rebound curve. It's more just blah or flat numbers, and then you reduce a hair and they get better numbers. But more often than not when we see people reduce by a little, the numbers get worse. So that's where I want to tear my hair out, when it isn't even clear rebound, just sort of a vague "nah, I don't like this dose" kind of a thing, and who knows what to do, and neither dose reductions nor increases really seem to work. I don't think that's Thumper though.

With Thumper, I don't see rebound on the whole. Personally I think rebound is overemphasized and overseen in the numbers (not every high PS is a bounce, and it seems to me that on PZI, odds are it's simply lack of duration). If her ketones are trace, then she probably needs more insulin. If you can stomach it I would consider early shots. My guess with her is that sometimes her panc is pitching in and other times not, and that is the dramatic change in her patterns. Long duration and unshootable PSs at +12 seem to me most likely to be from panc action (barring a serious overdose or something), whereas the high PSs she is getting now look like insulin poop-out to me.
 
Joanna, just to clarify. Would you call liver training the liver throwing glucose into the blood for 'perceived' low numbers...not actual low numbers? So ignore and continue with dose.
 
Yes, did I say it wrong (or not say it at all, oops!)? Panicky liver, when it freaks out over things that aren't actually dangerous.
 
no no you did'nt say anything...
the one thing about levemir...not lantus per say, is the slow ocean liner kind of movement you get.
the flat numbers are actually a goal.
that is why you can shoot pretty low numbers...nothing much happens.
it's like a maintance insulin once you get where you want to be.
strange thing here is i see that going on here....flat numbers.
has anyone considered flat numbers may be a GOOD thing. maybe like lev this pro zinc acts in that way.
when the flat numbers are high you wait for a while to steady out...then raise itsy bit to acheive the next level of flat numbers.
KWIM?
 
no I don't think so though - we never see them flat in blues in greens, only in higher numbers. I think it's mostly from too little insulin, with the occasional cat getting that pattern from too much insulin, just to drive us all wacky.

:dizcat

And we don't see them gradually lower as you raise the dose - it's usually just ho hum until there is a breakthrough when the dose is high enough. I would love it if you were right, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. Bix was actually the closest I have seen to that, and he was on PZI Vet. I think it was due to a sputtering pancreas though, not the insulin pattern - he just kept himself from getting PSs that were very high.
 
Wow, my head is kinda spinning right now..
thank you all for so much input, nad support, you all are so great and I
dont know what I would do without you guys..
you know, I was on Lantus before Prozinc and he did not do well there..
Is levemire that different from Lantus?
I would hate to switch again though..just thinkin..
 
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