The Switch to Prozinc

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm just wondering if the increase to 2 units this morning was too fast, I am second guessing myself with the increase, I was going to hold the 1.75 units for another day or so. Do you think that is what is causing these icky pink numbers today?
 
Blair & Freya said:
I feel this. My cat also had huge and sudden drops on Caninsulin/Vetsulin. She'd often drop more than 100 points lower within the span of an hour or two, only to shoot back up at +5, often just as dramatically. I'm still getting over some very real anxiety about lower than usual pre-shots because of this, though ProZinc is so different. Her cylces have been higher/flatter lately too. I am really grateful for these forums because after coming from Caninsulin, I don't think I'd know what to do with these numbers!

Just wanted to say you're definitely not alone in that experience. You got some good results though! Hope it keeps up for you and Timmy.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your encouragement. Those severe increases and decreases were hard on my nerves too. I'm glad you made the move as well. Now I just have to figure out, with help, what dose will bring Timmy down to better numbers. :)
 
Rachel said:
Hmmm...could be a tiny bounce. Those are actually about the same as your normal preshots, but he did go low yesterday....and the high, flat cycle after is classic. If it is a bounce, though, I think it's just a very small one. Let's wait and see what he does tomorrow (I know, wait and see is never what you want to hear!).
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping me understand what is happening. I will say that the flat cycles are interesting, I keep thinking something is wrong with my meter or test strip.
 
Looks like we have multiple cats here coordinating their bounces... maybe they'll bounce themselves off that trampoline?!

Hopefully Timmy will come back down soon. At least there was an improvement in his PM +2 over his AM +2 (yikes!).
 
Timmy is lower than expected this morning at 286. I have stalled 30 minutes and he is now at 299. I am not sure how to dose him. When he was 325 a few days ago at 1.75 units he went into blue. I will stall for another 20 minutes.
 
Djamila said:
I always feel bad when I cross-post, but it is nice when the two posts say the same thing!
Click to expand...
I panicked a bit this morning with the yellow preshot numbers. I stalled twice and he came up in slow motion. I was tempted to go to 1.75, but I didn't want to mess his progress up. He is a talker and he was quite unhappy with having to wait for his breakfast. I look at the other spreadsheets and it is so common to shoot at yellow and blue preshot numbers. That is such a foreign concept to me and I need to start training my brain for this. ;)
 
Susan and Timmy said:
I panicked a bit this morning with the yellow preshot numbers. I stalled twice and he came up in slow motion. I was tempted to go to 1.75, but I didn't want to mess his progress up. He is a talker and he was quite unhappy with having to wait for his breakfast. I look at the other spreadsheets and it is so common to shoot at yellow and blue preshot numbers. That is such a foreign concept to me and I need to start training my brain for this. ;)
Click to expand...
You'll get there, Susan. Those of us using Lantus learn to shoot on green numbers! Hair-raising the first few times ...
 
Djamila said:
The more you do it, the easier it becomes! Just remember that those blues and greens are where the healing can happen, so the more time he can spend there, the better.
Click to expand...
He hasn't spent a lot of time at all at the healing blues or greens. Just by taking away the extreme increases and decreases have made him stop hiding, he is actually out with the family now, all the time. I can't wait to see how he will be as he gets lower and lower. Thank you for your guidance. I just appreciate it so much.:)
 
Timmy has been very busy with his numbers today. He dropped lower faster than I had anticipated at +3. I had to nudge up his numbers a bit with some LC food...twice. I'm not sure if I needed to do that with this insulin, but I didn't want it to get out of hand. I'm not sure if the dose needs changing.

So far though, Timmy has had 5 hours, albeit stressful for me, in those blue and green healing numbers we talked about this morning. That's so wonderful!
 
Wow! Go Timmy!!! I'm so sorry it was stressful, but that was a beautiful cycle!

Do you normally only feed him twice/day? Or does he usually get snacks?
 
Djamila said:
Wow! Go Timmy!!! I'm so sorry it was stressful, but that was a beautiful cycle!

Do you normally only feed him twice/day? Or does he usually get snacks?
Click to expand...
He gets wet food with his am and pm shots and I leave YA Mature Zero out for him to graze on whenever. I pick up all food 2 hours before each shot time. He was grazing on the YA at +3, which I stopped him so I could steer him with the wet food instead.

Do you think I needed to steer him with the food? The way he was dropping, I was afraid not to steer him. I just don't have enough data to know what he will do right now. Also do you think the dose is okay for tonight?
 
Oh, so many thoughts about all of this! I'll try to keep from rambling too long... ;):)

You hit the nail on the head: there really isn't enough data to know yet if you needed to steer today or not. Also not enough to recommend a reduction (in my mind anyway).

It does look like his nadir is most likely closer to +4/5 than it is to +6/7, so he likely would have been fine on his own. Also, it sounds like he was self-steering, which Sam does too. It's so nice when our kitties help take care of themselves!

I think I would be inclined to hold the dose tonight. You're a pro at monitoring, and you know what to do if he does hit 50, so he'll be safe no matter what. Most likely, he'll stay a little higher tonight since this was a new low number for him. Since you usually monitor until +4 or later, you'll definitely know by then if he's going to need a boost or not.

One thing to remember is that 50 is the "take action" number, it's not the "your cat is in danger" number. So he still had some room to go before he was in any danger.

The benefit of you steering a bit was that when the drop is much over 50%, it is more likely to cause a bounce, so keeping him from dropping too much farther may ease the ups and downs for him a bit which I would imagine just feels better to the kitty. It doesn't look like he's all that prone to bouncing anyway, but it's nice to help them out when we can. :cat:

Okay, so that's my opinion, but if you would feel more comfortable with a lower dose for tonight, that's okay too. I wouldn't go too much lower though - maybe a skinny 2u or a fat 1.75u. His cycle today is really what you're aiming for, but I do understand if that's just too stressful for an evening cycle. Sleep is important, and keeping your sanity through all of this is important too!
 
I need to test in 15 minutes. If he is yellow, how do I dose him? This morning I stalled an hour because he was 286 and I wanted to get him into pinks. This is uncharted territory for me. :)
 
Lol....do you want my opinon? I'd say he's high enough at 241 to shoot the full 2u. Please know that I tend toward more aggressive dosing advice, and also believe in holding the dose unless you the cat forces you to reduce (i.e. goes too close to 50). Exceptions being someone who is new to it, doesn't have much data, isn't confident about being able to handle it, etc. You, however, are plenty competent to handle whatever happens, so that's why I think you can shoot the 2u. Please please please know that it doesn't hurt my feelings if you just say, "Nope. Not tonight. Don't want that kind of stress this evening."
 
That's a tough one, Susan. Your stalled preshot number was basically the same as your original PS this morning. I know you steered with food, and as Djamila says, there's no way to know for sure if it was needed.

If he was mine and at the same kind of number, and I knew I could get some tests to see how fast he was dropping, I'd be inclined to stay the course with 2 units. It got you into some good numbers, and you know how to steer him if it's needed. If that makes you uncomfortable, you could go a little lower, though. Remember, in the end, you hold the syringe!

Now that I've jabbered on about that for a minute trying to make up my mind, you're probably already testing. :p Let us know what you get!
 
EDIT: I just read that back and it sounds a little too aggressive even to me. :oops::rolleyes: There are other reasons to reduce such as long cycles, cycles you can't monitor, just getting that sense that it's too much, etc. And I'm not trying to suggest we shoot until we get hypos -- just that sometimes we reduce when we really don't need to. Rachel did a much better job of explaining this than I did tonight! I apologize if my post sounded a little over the top!
 
Saw you got a 379 preshot! Could be a bit of a bounce...don't be discouraged by it. I think 2 u was fine for that. Can you get a before bed test to just kind of see where things are going?
 
Djamila said:
EDIT: I just read that back and it sounds a little too aggressive even to me. :oops::rolleyes: There are other reasons to reduce such as long cycles, cycles you can't monitor, just getting that sense that it's too much, etc. And I'm not trying to suggest we shoot until we get hypos -- just that sometimes we reduce when we really don't need to. Rachel did a much better job of explaining this than I did tonight! I apologize if my post sounded a little over the top!
Click to expand...
No worries. :)I just appreciate the info. I'm not used to shooting the lower numbers, so bear with me. It looks like I'm going to have to get used to shooting them sooner than I thought too.
 
Rachel said:
Saw you got a 379 preshot! Could be a bit of a bounce...don't be discouraged by it. I think 2 u was fine for that. Can you get a before bed test to just kind of see where things are going?
Click to expand...
I was hoping it would be a bit lower, but he had a good run today. I'm uneasy about yellow preshots, that sounds dumb when the spreadsheets here are yellows, blues, and greens. ;) If he is at yellows at preshot, will it mess him up if I lower his dose. He did well today and I need to be careful I don't derail his numbers. For example, if he is at 260 at shot time, until I gather enough data, I would be inclined to dose 1.5 units to see what he does. Am I far off base with this? I now know from today that 2 units, when he is low 300s at shot time, is fine and gets him a great cycle. I feel like I am in the dark until I get more info from the different doses.

I will definitely get a few tests in before bed to see where he is headed. :)
 
Djamila said:
I still get nervous shooting as low as I have to right now! It's much easier to tell someone else it's the right decision, than it is to actually do it myself! ;)
Click to expand...
That makes sense. I can see what needs to happen, but then Timmy looks up at me and starts "talking" and I chicken out. I want him to keep feeling better so I need to work on getting nerves of steel. Easier said than done for sure.
 
I've spent a lot of time studying spreadsheets on here, and I would say that most of the time when someone lowers the dose because of a lower-than-normal pre-shot, the cycle ends up going upside down (the numbers get higher as the cycle goes on, instead of lower). Meaning that they could have stuck with the dose and been just fine. Now if the pre-shot is a LOT lower than normal, then you may need to decrease to be safe, but if it's over 250 (this number changes, I'm basing the 250 on your "usual" numbers right now in Timmy's journey) I would give the whole 2 units as long as you're around to keep an eye on him. If it's under 250, I might consider a slight decrease to maybe 1.75u, but I don't think I'd go any lower than that if he's over 200. And really I think it would be better to stall without feeding and let him rise to a number you're comfortable with. With the numbers you're seeing right now, stalling will most likely work and allow you to give a regular dose.

Prozinc really does best when it's consistent. It's sort of halfway between Lantus and Vetsulin - it's more flexible than Lantus, but not as flexible as Vetsulin. There are a few cats who really need a sliding scale, but the majority of cats seem to do best when the dose is as consistent as possible. When it gets adjusted, it can take several cycles to get back to normal, and during those cycles dosing can get pretty confusing. So again, when you have to adjust for safety, of course do it, but if you can keep it steady it seems to work best for most cats.

And as always, you hold the syringe, so make whatever decision you are comfortable with. There is only so much we can know through the internet, and sometimes your mama-sense will tell you things that we can't know. It never hurts anyone's feelings if you do something different. We are all here to support each other, and totally understand when you need to go with your gut on something!
 
Djamila said it very well, so I'll just add one more thing: sometimes if you hit a yellow, you could just stall for 15ish minutes and retest to see if he's rising...it is probably safe to shoot at yellows, but it might make YOU feel better just to see that the number is still going up, not down. :)

Also, as Djmila said, Timmy is your cat and you have to be comfortable. If you just have a gut feeling that you need to go lower or you aren't going to be around to monitor, it's okay to reduce slightly!

Also, no one here thinks you're silly for feeling nervous about those yellows...it's not really about what OTHER people have gotten, it's about what is normal for YOU and for Timmy. Timmy doesn't usually hit those lower numbers, so they are more nerve wracking for you. You'll grow to be more comfortable!
 
Beautiful cycle today, Timmy! Ready everyone else's (gr? :confused:) comments and think holding the 2.0U for PS numbers >250 sounds good with slight reductions for 200 - 250 like Djamila said :smuggrin:. As you see more yellow PS numbers you will get more comfortable with them. I usually only stall with blue PS numbers now and just look at my data for yellows. :)
 
He had another day with healing numbers. Preshot is 268. I am going to take the advice and stall for 20 minutes to see if he comes up, just for my sanity...So after a 25 minute stall he is now at 280. I'm going to go ahead and give him 2 units. Geesh! Why at the PMPS!?
 
Susan and Timmy said:
He had another day with healing numbers. Preshot is 268. I am going to take the advice and stall for 20 minutes to see if he comes up, just for my sanity...So after a 25 minute stall he is now at 280. I'm going to go ahead and give him 2 units. Geesh! Why at the PMPS!?
Click to expand...
Good call. Yes, it's nerve wracking at first but you need data for these situations, Susan, and this is the only way to get it. He's had a great start on ProZinc! :)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Good call. Yes, it's nerve wracking at first but you need data for these situations, Susan, and this is the only way to get it. He's had a great start on ProZinc! :)
Click to expand...
Thank you. :) It is very nerve wracking indeed, but I know this step is very necessary to get the data. I keep reminding myself that this isn't Vetsulin and he will be fine and I know how to steer. :nailbiting: :rolleyes: I am really amazed at how he is responding to Prozinc though, which is another reason I have to learn to shoot the lower numbers. I don't want to stall his progress, plus he is starting to feel a bit better and he isn't going off by himself or hiding, which he was doing quite a bit. We are nine days in and it is definitely a great start!
 
Djamila said:
I've spent a lot of time studying spreadsheets on here, and I would say that most of the time when someone lowers the dose because of a lower-than-normal pre-shot, the cycle ends up going upside down (the numbers get higher as the cycle goes on, instead of lower). Meaning that they could have stuck with the dose and been just fine. Now if the pre-shot is a LOT lower than normal, then you may need to decrease to be safe, but if it's over 250 (this number changes, I'm basing the 250 on your "usual" numbers right now in Timmy's journey) I would give the whole 2 units as long as you're around to keep an eye on him. If it's under 250, I might consider a slight decrease to maybe 1.75u, but I don't think I'd go any lower than that if he's over 200. And really I think it would be better to stall without feeding and let him rise to a number you're comfortable with. With the numbers you're seeing right now, stalling will most likely work and allow you to give a regular dose.

Prozinc really does best when it's consistent. It's sort of halfway between Lantus and Vetsulin - it's more flexible than Lantus, but not as flexible as Vetsulin. There are a few cats who really need a sliding scale, but the majority of cats seem to do best when the dose is as consistent as possible. When it gets adjusted, it can take several cycles to get back to normal, and during those cycles dosing can get pretty confusing. So again, when you have to adjust for safety, of course do it, but if you can keep it steady it seems to work best for most cats.

And as always, you hold the syringe, so make whatever decision you are comfortable with. There is only so much we can know through the internet, and sometimes your mama-sense will tell you things that we can't know. It never hurts anyone's feelings if you do something different. We are all here to support each other, and totally understand when you need to go with your gut on something!
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for this info. It helps a lot. :)
 
Rachel said:
Djamila said it very well, so I'll just add one more thing: sometimes if you hit a yellow, you could just stall for 15ish minutes and retest to see if he's rising...it is probably safe to shoot at yellows, but it might make YOU feel better just to see that the number is still going up, not down. :)

Also, as Djmila said, Timmy is your cat and you have to be comfortable. If you just have a gut feeling that you need to go lower or you aren't going to be around to monitor, it's okay to reduce slightly!

Also, no one here thinks you're silly for feeling nervous about those yellows...it's not really about what OTHER people have gotten, it's about what is normal for YOU and for Timmy. Timmy doesn't usually hit those lower numbers, so they are more nerve wracking for you. You'll grow to be more comfortable!
Click to expand...
I took your advice tonight and stalled for a bit and it did make me more comfortable when his numbers went up just a little. :)
 
Yong said:
Beautiful cycle today, Timmy! Ready everyone else's (gr? :confused:) comments and think holding the 2.0U for PS numbers >250 sounds good with slight reductions for 200 - 250 like Djamila said :smuggrin:. As you see more yellow PS numbers you will get more comfortable with them. I usually only stall with blue PS numbers now and just look at my data for yellows. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you for your encouragement. I really appreciate it. As I get more data at the lower PS numbers I know this will get easier. The next step is not to stall on a yellow...baby steps though. I took a look at your spreadsheet and Maury is definitely keeping you on your toes with that PS number tonight. :cat:
 
I'm glad the stall helped! Sometimes, just seeing that the numbers really are going up helps since you know they would keep going up if you waited. That will help you learn to be comfortable shooting at those yellows with no stalling. I'm glad Timmy seems to be feeling better! That's another thing to remember...they are more than just a number and this is obviously helping him. :)
 
Timmy had a good day with his numbers. He didn't stay in the greens as long today though and his +7 was a higher blue. Last night was uneventful as far as dosing that yellow and it left me with more confidence. I was all set to dose on a yellow again and his PMPS is 474. ;) I gave the 2 units, hopefully he doesn't stay up in the high numbers for long.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top