The day after Green bounce.

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Sev

Sev

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Today's numbers started out high but appear to be dropping rapidly.
+2 is down to 393 down from 527 +1.
 
+3 314. Still on track.
If you discount the +1 number he is dropping at about 80 pts an hour.
 
I thought you gave one unit this am. You gave 1.75? I hope today isn't another bumpy, long ride, Sev. That was an agressive dose.

We knew he would be high this am after 24 hours without a shot - but that is an "artificial" high because of no insulin. Not a usual high when you have been giving insulin every 12 hours. That is why we suggested a reduced dose.

I know you will test. Assume you have some wet gravy food around you can feed if you need it.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I thought you gave one unit this am. You gave 1.75? I hope today isn't another bumpy, long ride, Sev. That was an agressive dose.

We knew he would be high this am after 24 hours without a shot - but that is an "artificial" high because of no insulin. Not a usual high when you have been giving insulin every 12 hours. That is why we suggested a reduced dose.

I know you will test. Assume you have some wet gravy food around you can feed if you need it.
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I have Kayo syrup.
I also have some wonderful home made fudge that would make a non diabetic pass out. Oh it is good. :smile:
 
Karo syrup is a quick spiker but doesn't last long so if needed, you can either rub some on the gums or mix in some high carb food. Food is what will help keep the numbers up longer. Vanilla ice cream works well also and a lot of cats love it. Laxatone or NutriCal, both come in a tube, loaded with molasses, smear a glob on tongue, melts quickly. Hope will eat it right from the tube, she loves the stuff. Mishka, she loves ice cream. I've played the battle with the insulin several times and several times it is a tug of war. Get them up a little, insulin takes them down. I also have never had either of those two cats rebound and run sky high. No matter what I would give, once they settled and stopped dropping they would slowly work their way back up to a normal ps.
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
Does Kitty travel well? Maybe he could ride shotgun with you if you have to go to a job site?
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Kitty travels very well. He was free range in the front of my van for 11 hours once.
Trying to stay on the road going 70 miles an our is interesting when a cat decides to look out the drivers side window and steps on your arm.
Or decides to become a dashboard ornament directly in front of you line of vision.
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
Karo syrup is a quick spiker but doesn't last long so if needed, you can either rub some on the gums or mix in some high carb food. Food is what will help keep the numbers up longer. Vanilla ice cream works well also and a lot of cats love it. Laxatone or NutriCal, both come in a tube, loaded with molasses, smear a glob on tongue, melts quickly. Hope will eat it right from the tube, she loves the stuff. Mishka, she loves ice cream. I've played the battle with the insulin several times and several times it is a tug of war. Get them up a little, insulin takes them down. I also have never had either of those two cats rebound and run sky high. No matter what I would give, once they settled and stopped dropping they would slowly work their way back up to a normal ps.
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Actually I have a couple of oral syringes that have pain killer in them I could thoroughly clean out and use for a molasses shot.
 
You never syringe karo, molasses, etc. you rub it on the gums. Don't think Kitty would like the molasses too well either. Syringing could aspirate a cat when it is that thick stuff. You can also use honey to rub on the gums.

Maybe get a big carrier so he is confined while truck is moving and loose while you are working? Set up a litter box, bring food, meter, etc.? IF there is ever an accident, Kitty is not safely secured and if not injured, could escape and be gone. There are many of us that not only use carriers, we seatbelt them in.
 
Molasses and karo are pretty easy. Smear around their mouth or on their gums and they will lick it off. A syringe might get in much more than you need. Usually just a tiny amount is needed
 
I think the dose was fine on that number. We expected a high due to no shot, right? That would qualify as "warranted, I think?
carl
 
If you see a PMPS lower than 400, then I'd think about backung off the dose.
Carl
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
You never syringe karo, molasses, etc. you rub it on the gums. Don't think Kitty would like the molasses too well either. Syringing could aspirate a cat when it is that thick stuff. You can also use honey to rub on the gums.

Maybe get a big carrier so he is confined while truck is moving and loose while you are working? Set up a litter box, bring food, meter, etc.? IF there is ever an accident, Kitty is not safely secured and if not injured, could escape and be gone. There are many of us that not only use carriers, we seatbelt them in.
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Unfortunately the house is a renovation and there are many areas for Kitty to explore. Plus escaping is a possibility.
I also have a gas generator and propane heaters running. Not to mention fumes from painting and other things.

It would be nice to have my little buddy on the job site. However animals and construction can be a dangerous combination. Especially when in the midst of moving equipment.
 
+5 was 124.
Testing on the half hour in a few minutes.
+5.5 is 91.
Estimating +6 to be @ 58
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
Sev, I meant to leave Kitty loose in the truck......not out and on the job site ;-)
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That could work if he didnt jump out. He is still fast little guy.
The other problem is that hours go by in a flash when I am involved in my work.
 
+6 72. My guess was within 14 points. :smile:
Looks like he is leveling off.
 
Depending on what his PMPS is you might want to think about cutting back on the dose. If his PMPS is in the 300 again I would cut back.
 
Rob & Harley said:
Depending on what his PMPS is you might want to think about cutting back on the dose. If his PMPS is in the 300 again I would cut back.
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And if its below 300?
 
Then cut back more. Won't know till you get there
Carl
 
If the line is 300....
How does 1.5 if over, 1.25 if under sound to everyone?
carl
 
carlinsc said:
If the line is 300....
How does 1.5 if over, 1.25 if under sound to everyone?
carl
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My thoughts exactly.
20 minutes till show time.
 
Well, you've tried 1, you've tried .5, you've tried 1.75, you've tried 1.5 and .75.........1.25 sounds good but stick with it a few days. Great pmps :razz: Maybe feed and shoot in the a.m., go to job site, and get back for +4? He doesn't drop too low till at least +4 where you might have to keep an eye on him.
 
If you look at the chart. Since I started the 175 the numbers are trending better. The % of 400's and 500's has dropped.

Perhaps doing a cycle of 2.0 if the numbers are high tomorrow it might be worth a try.
 
You try not to change doses too quickly. See what the 1.25 does for a few days. You know the 1.75 brought him down too low and even though today was good it doesn't mean another 1.75 won't bring him down even lower. Yeah, we like to see double digits but not where they are down in the 40's. A little too close for comfort and you saw how long that insulin kept him there. Guess we see what the 1.25 does.
 
I'm new to the PZI board, and beg forgiveness if I am out of line!

Was the suggestion of fudge just a joke? I have read that chocolate is posionous to both cats and dogs!

Please don't use fudge for your pets, ever!

Sorry for sticking my typing into the conversation!

Theresa
 
Theresa,
Sev's got a dry sense of humor! I'm sure he's joking.

Carl
 
Sev said:
If you look at the chart. Since I started the 175 the numbers are trending better. The % of 400's and 500's has dropped.

Perhaps doing a cycle of 2.0 if the numbers are high tomorrow it might be worth a try.
Click to expand...

Sev,
There's nothing on his SS that indicates that an increase is warranted. I'd say the highest number you should be counting to at this point is 1.5. I think the 1.75 has outlived its usefullness.

Carl
 
Just wanted to touch on this again.....it's the thread title.

This morning's number was not a bounce. We use that word way too much.
The AMPS was an expected number due to no insulin last night. I actually expected it to be higher.

Think "warranted" and "unwarranted", not "bounce".

This morning's number was an expected increase, not due to any low numbers, but to a lack of insulin. The dose this morning was warranted by the higher number. It was also based on the fact that this morning's number was higher than the prior morning when he went low on the same dose. Today was actually an improvement on yesterday... He got more drop, off a higher number, with the same dose.

If he's high in the morning, don't automatically assume it is due to today's green. It may or may not be. All of these numbers are just numbers. They are isolated moments in the life of Kitty. You can't make decisions based on things just happening one time. Look for trends, look for patterns. Look for percentages instead of numbers when you are looking at how much "drop" you get. Forget weeks ago. Kitty is not the same kitty he was then... he looks to be getting better. What worked then might not work now. What didn't work then might work tomorrow.

Dr. Pierson, who is a lot wiser than any of us, put it this way. I'll keep posting it every day. I might even add it to my signature (except I've maxxed out on the 255 character limit, so I would have to replace something else)

Look for repeatability before panicking or making any important decision.
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Words to live by, IMO.
 
carlinsc said:
Just wanted to touch on this again.....it's the thread title.

This morning's number was not a bounce. We use that word way too much.
The AMPS was an expected number due to no insulin last night. I actually expected it to be higher.

Think "warranted" and "unwarranted", not "bounce".

This morning's number was an expected increase, not due to any low numbers, but to a lack of insulin. The dose this morning was warranted by the higher number. It was also based on the fact that this morning's number was higher than the prior morning when he went low on the same dose. Today was actually an improvement on yesterday... He got more drop, off a higher number, with the same dose.

If he's high in the morning, don't automatically assume it is due to today's green. It may or may not be. All of these numbers are just numbers. They are isolated moments in the life of Kitty. You can't make decisions based on things just happening one time. Look for trends, look for patterns. Look for percentages instead of numbers when you are looking at how much "drop" you get. Forget weeks ago. Kitty is not the same kitty he was then... he looks to be getting better. What worked then might not work now. What didn't work then might work tomorrow.

Dr. Pierson, who is a lot wiser than any of us, put it this way. I'll keep posting it every day. I might even add it to my signature (except I've maxxed out on the 255 character limit, so I would have to replace something else)

Look for repeatability before panicking or making any important decision.
Click to expand...

Words to live by, IMO.
Click to expand...

I have a quandary.
I know Kitty has a mild gum infection which is probably effecting his numbers.
The Vet feels the way to approach this is to get the numbers down so that Kitty's teeth can be cleaned so that the infection will subside.
He is not prescribing any more antibiotics which may be a good idea as the previous cycle did not get rid of the infection.
He wont move until he see's the glucose numbers come down.
So. I either need early morning low numbers on Monday for his next visit. Or I reschedule for a time around his nadir.
 
Define "low", or "The Vet feels the way to approach this is to get the numbers down".....
did he put a number on it? Can't you just show him the last few days of numbers on the SS? Kitty's numbers have come down.

He understands the connection between infection and elevated BG, right?

Carl
 
carlinsc said:
Sev said:
If you look at the chart. Since I started the 175 the numbers are trending better. The % of 400's and 500's has dropped.

Perhaps doing a cycle of 2.0 if the numbers are high tomorrow it might be worth a try.
Click to expand...

Sev,
There's nothing on his SS that indicates that an increase is warranted. I'd say the highest number you should be counting to at this point is 1.5. I think the 1.75 has outlived its usefullness.

Carl
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Perhaps. However as I pointed out before I see a pattern forming around the 1.75.
I am also seeing a pattern between the evening and morning shoots.
Is there any reason why you cant have a different dosages in the morning and evening?
From what everybody has been saying Kitty is falling outside the conventional wisdom.
 
I can't say what is right for Kitty. Bob had non-equal doses occasionally AM and PM. It isn't something usually done though. You won't know what "a" dose does on a repeating basis, however, unless you repeat it, right? Maybe on 1.25, the patterns will not be the same as they were on 1.75. If he's improving, then you'd expect different results than when he was worse off.

To bring back an old line...... sometimes, you have to just let it be a deck, Sev. Do a regular dose and see what happens. Don't sprint when jogging is indicated.

Carl
 
carlinsc said:
Define "low", or "The Vet feels the way to approach this is to get the numbers down".....
did he put a number on it? Can't you just show him the last few days of numbers on the SS? Kitty's numbers have come down.

He understands the connection between infection and elevated BG, right?

Carl
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He appears to be pretty well informed and realizes that cats are special in trying to get them under control.
He thought that the 202 he got from his test was to high.
I would imagine he want to be in the 100's.
 
carlinsc said:
I can't say what is right for Kitty. Bob had non-equal doses occasionally AM and PM. It isn't something usually done though. You won't know what "a" dose does on a repeating basis, however, unless you repeat it, right? Maybe on 1.25, the patterns will not be the same as they were on 1.75. If he's improving, then you'd expect different results than when he was worse off.

To bring back an old line...... sometimes, you have to just let it be a deck, Sev. Do a regular dose and see what happens. Don't sprint when jogging is indicated.

Carl
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We will see what happens in the next 2 cycles. I like not seeing all those 500's.
 
PM +5 128. Looks like he is leveling out.
Previous patterns dont speak well for the morning number.
 
And we are off and running. I was pleasantly surprised my previous post was wrong.
AMPS was 201.
I shot 1.25 and now +1 is 378.
He jumped 177 points after eating. I did double test at +1. I did not at the AMPS though.

Def going to have to reschedule with the vet to a later time closer to nadir.
 
+2 is 419????
I know it was not a fur shot.
It was a side of chest shot where I have not been having any problems.

+3 is 343. That's a relief. Perhaps I didnt screw the shot up after all.
 
+5 is 148.

Anybody notice the parallel of the numbers from yesterday morning starting at +2. The difference is staying steady in a range of between 23-29 points so far.
 
The Vet feels the way to approach this is to get the numbers down so that Kitty's teeth can be cleaned so that the infection will subside.
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I just don't understand your vet and his thinking. I worked with one cat, several years ago, where the vet wouldn't do a dental till the numbers came down. She brought the cat to the vet I was using at that time, dental was done and badly needed to be done, and kitty went off insulin. His mouth was playing havoc with his bg.

His numbers are looking good today on that 1.25. He should be able to get the dental with those numbers. Heck, you can't keep a diabetic kitty under 100 from amps to pmps safely with insulin. Who knows.....getting his mouth fixed just might help him go OTJ. I don't know if he has a bad tooth or where or what the infection is but has the vet considered that it might be hurting Kitty every now and then?
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
The Vet feels the way to approach this is to get the numbers down so that Kitty's teeth can be cleaned so that the infection will subside.
Click to expand...

I just don't understand your vet and his thinking. I worked with one cat, several years ago, where the vet wouldn't do a dental till the numbers came down. She brought the cat to the vet I was using at that time, dental was done and badly needed to be done, and kitty went off insulin. His mouth was playing havoc with his bg.

His numbers are looking good today on that 1.25. He should be able to get the dental with those numbers. Heck, you can't keep a diabetic kitty under 100 from amps to pmps safely with insulin. Who knows.....getting his mouth fixed just might help him go OTJ. I don't know if he has a bad tooth or where or what the infection is but has the vet considered that it might be hurting Kitty every now and then?
Click to expand...

Seems odd to me as well.
 
Ah well the good run crashes and burns. +10 is 428
Not sure what would make him spike from 74 to 428 in 3 hours. That cant be good.
 
Are you using the OTU or the ReliOn? Reason for asking.....OTU is known to run higher once it gets up into the high 300's. Have you tried testing him with both meters to get an idea? Insulin runs out, he shoots back up. Some cats go back up slowly, some don't. Did he snack on any food after that 70+ number? Once the insulin has reached peak, any food given is going to shoot them back up. Stick with the 1.25....today was a good day.
 
Hope + (((Baby)))GA said:
Are you using the OTU or the ReliOn? Reason for asking.....OTU is known to run higher once it gets up into the high 300's. Have you tried testing him with both meters to get an idea? Insulin runs out, he shoots back up. Some cats go back up slowly, some don't. Did he snack on any food after that 70+ number? Once the insulin has reached peak, any food given is going to shoot them back up. Stick with the 1.25....today was a good day.
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I gave him the snak at plus 7. It was FreshPet chicken. Never seen him jump up like that from it before.
I am using the ReliOn and double tested.
 
Maybe Kitty is one that cannot handle any food after peak time without jumping way back up. Now, if he gets some snacks before peak, insulin is still working and he shouldn't jump too much but after peak :roll:
 
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