Testing a very difficult cat :(

[Lauren & Red]

My new testing device works. I’m trying to check before both shots. I’m sorry my spreadsheet isn’t updated. I wrote 2 numbers down and will update soon. Although there’s not much data. So it won’t be helpful.

Anyway, the AMPS and PMPS usually takes me well over an hour to get. Mostly, I fail and give up after way too many pokes.

To be clear, I can do the test itself. I can get a test in under 30 seconds, no problem, from my other (non-diabetic cat). I was practicing on him. I’ve done more tests on Mittens than Red and actually feel comfortable.

But…

Red will literally hurt himself trying to get away from me. I can’t burrito wrap because the second he sees a towel, he goes into attack mode. And he always gets away. He’s like a very angry Houdini.

I need both hands for the ear prick, getting a blood drop, keeping his head from shaking and getting my sample. The problem is that I don’t have extra hands to hold his body. And he won’t sit still no matter what I try or how much I praise him.

Red was a rescue from an abusive home. He had marks on his ears (some I can still see if I look closely under the hair— almost like cigarette burns even though I can’t imagine anyone ever being so cruel). I’m seeing them when I use a flashlight to find the vein and didn’t know the marks were still there until doing this.

So it may be triggering past trauma, if that’s even possible. But everyone says it gets easier and I may be reaching here trying to understand why I’m getting such a different personality all of the sudden from my cat.

I’ve tried bribing with treats but he’s never had interest in treats. I bought several different ones recently and no luck.

He likes wet food but won’t eat if anyone is touching him.

I don’t know how to keep him still so I can start testing more. I don’t want to sit on him because I’m afraid to lose my balance and end up putting my full weight on him.

I bought a collar and leash for cats, but I stopped because I was worried he would break his neck with how hard he was fighting to get away.

Strangely. insulin shots are no problem. He knows what I’m doing, but doesn’t seem to care. He doesn’t need to be bribed or distracted.

The urine glucose strips always show in the 500 or more range.

He likely isn’t getting enough insulin. He was prescribed 2u twice daily. But without blood tests, I can’t increase it. Despite the fact that he likely needs me to. My vet says I’m “reckless for giving less than he advised”.

 

[StarburstMom]

I know money is tight but you may want to look at the freestyle libre to at least see how he's running during the day. The sensors are pricey (mine were $135 for 2) and the won't likely work for the whole 2 weeks but for me they are worth it. Then again my gals numbers are way higher than Reds if I remember right.

 

[Lauren & Red]

I know money is tight but you may want to look at the freestyle libre to at least see how he's running during the day. The sensors are pricey (mine were $135 for 2) and the won't likely work for the whole 2 weeks but for me they are worth it. Then again my gals numbers are way higher than Reds if I remember right.

Is that something you buy and bring to the vet or does the vet provide it? I’m already looking for a new vet because my current one told me testing at home was a waste of time and told me to “relax and not be so paranoid”. So he’s completely lost my trust and I won’t be going back.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Is that something you buy and bring to the vet or does the vet provide it?

You usually buy it yourself and have your vet put it on. It's the Freestyle Libre continuous glucose monitor.

They're actually offering a free trial where they'll send you one (but you have to fill out the form like you're the caretaker of a human, not a cat!)

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

Lauren, I completely feel for you. I know there are some cats that simply will not and cannot be tested. It sounds like you're doing the best that you can do. If your other cat is allowing it and you're able to get it done painlessly on Mittens, then it obviously isn't your technique. I certainly would get it if you needed to give yourself, and Red, a bit of a break. Keep testing with the strips and go back to the ears in a handful of days, trying first only to get him used to you touching them, then warming them, then lastly, testing. If it were my cat, I would be so worried about the high BG that I would increase by .25U and keep testing with the urine strips. Be prepared for a hypo if he shows any signs. If he is lethargic, he would probably allow you to test him. I am NOT saying this is ideal, as we all know what can happen if you shoot with a low BG. And I'm not suggesting that you give up and never try again. But maybe a couple days of just loving him up and relaxing about all of this may help both of you to give it a go again, slowly and more at ease. I really don't know what other choice you have right now. And if something happens, you know that you tried with all your heart. Let's see what other members suggest.

 

[StarburstMom]

Is that something you buy and bring to the vet or does the vet provide it? I’m already looking for a new vet because my current one told me testing at home was a waste of time and told me to “relax and not be so paranoid”. So he’s completely lost my trust and I won’t be going back.

I did have to have my vet write a prescription for it and I bought it at a local pharmacy. It isn't authorized for feline use so there isn't any support if it doesn't last.

 

[Lisa and Witn (GA)]

There are ways to test using the paw. However I am not sure if he would cooperate for that either.

 

[Ann & Sister]

My goodness, yes, find another vet. Yours doesn't even sound compassionate. You are going through enough without this guy's mean comments.

While my Sister is easy going, the technique I use to keep her in place for BG tests is to place her right beside me in my recliner chair, facing forward like me. She often likes to sit there with me anyway. It allows me to have some control of her body, if needed, but she usually stays put even when the first try is an error. That leaves two hands free to hold her head still so she won't flick blood droplets and to allow me to compress her ear to stop the bleeding for several seconds. She knows I have a couple of freeze dried chicken treats on the table as she can smell them on my hands. So it is working.

Hugs.

 

[Lauren & Red]

Lauren, I completely feel for you. I know there are some cats that simply will not and cannot be tested. It sounds like you're doing the best that you can do. If your other cat is allowing it and you're able to get it done painlessly on Mittens, then it obviously isn't your technique. I certainly would get it if you needed to give yourself, and Red, a bit of a break. Keep testing with the strips and go back to the ears in a handful of days, trying first only to get him used to you touching them, then warming them, then lastly, testing. If it were my cat, I would be so worried about the high BG that I would increase by .25U and keep testing with the urine strips. Be prepared for a hypo if he shows any signs. If he is lethargic, he would probably allow you to test him. I am NOT saying this is ideal, as we all know what can happen if you shoot with a low BG. And I'm not suggesting that you give up and never try again. But maybe a couple days of just loving him up and relaxing about all of this, may help both of you to give it a go again, slowly and more at ease. I really don't know what other choice you have right now. And if something happens, you know that you tried with all your heart. Let's see what other members suggest.

Thank you so much for your kindness and understanding! I’m feeling a little attacked sometimes on here because I’m not getting BG readings. I know it’s not intentional and that the comments are out of genuine concern and what’s best for my cat. I’m grateful for everyone.

I just don’t think anyone truly understands the difficultly and how hard I’m trying. I’m in tears all the time. And I haven’t stopped trying. Although, after tonight’s horrible attempt, I think you’re right. I need to find a new approach. I’m going to stop poking the ears for a couple of days and get him comfortable with me just touching his ears, rubbing them, warming them, holding him in position, even clicking the pen with no contact. And slowly build from there. Maybe he will relax if I back up and ease into it. I will never give up.

I want to be testing to give him the care he deserves. But my usual calm and sweet angel turns into something so unfamiliar and horrible when doing the ear tests. He’s violent and mean (something I never thought I would say about the sweet boy who shares a pillow with me at night). Mostly, I can tell that he’s terrified.

I don’t think I will be able to wear anything but long sleeves and pants for the rest of the summer. I’m so scratched up. My entire body is covered in deep scratches and and gross puncture wounds.
I know he’s not trying to hurt me. I just wish he knew I wasn’t trying to hurt him. Only help him.

My other cat comes running to me when I’m trying to test Red. He’s like, “my turn”! Because he’s already associated it with treats. Why can’t my other cat be like this?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I just wish he knew I wasn’t trying to hurt him. Only help him.

Tell him. Next time you're both just snuggling, calm and quiet, talk to him. I firmly believe our kitties understand what we are saying to them as long as we aren't giving them mixed messages. If we're nervous and scared, they think there's a reason they should be nervous and scared too but if we are relaxed and comfortable, they are much more likely to be relaxed too.

You'll get there!

 

[Lauren & Red]

Lauren, I completely feel for you. I know there are some cats that simply will not and cannot be tested. It sounds like you're doing the best that you can do. If your other cat is allowing it and you're able to get it done painlessly on Mittens, then it obviously isn't your technique. I certainly would get it if you needed to give yourself, and Red, a bit of a break. Keep testing with the strips and go back to the ears in a handful of days, trying first only to get him used to you touching them, then warming them, then lastly, testing. If it were my cat, I would be so worried about the high BG that I would increase by .25U and keep testing with the urine strips. Be prepared for a hypo if he shows any signs. If he is lethargic, he would probably allow you to test him. I am NOT saying this is ideal, as we all know what can happen if you shoot with a low BG. And I'm not suggesting that you give up and never try again. But maybe a couple days of just loving him up and relaxing about all of this, may help both of you to give it a go again, slowly and more at ease. I really don't know what other choice you have right now. And if something happens, you know that you tried with all your heart. Let's see what other members suggest.

I have been considering increasing the insulin from 0.5 to 0.75 based on the urine strips but have everyone’s voice in the back of my mind that I shouldn’t even be shooting period without testing BG first. So I haven’t.

The urine test strips are really worrisome though with such high numbers. They’ve never been below 500+. But I don’t know how to interpret what those mean, since everyone urges against them. Are they even accurate? Maybe the numbers can’t be trusted. I get the sample by sticking the strip directly in the urine stream. I don’t dip it.

I know the urine strips are not able to show current levels but what do they show? I bought another brand that I’ve seen mentioned. I’m going to compare the results and see if the readings are similar tomorrow when they arrive. The new ones I ordered are called keto-diastix.
Currently I test separately for ketones with ketostix but it’s not the one that measures glucose. The glucose strips are “checkup” brand.

 

[Lauren & Red]

Tell him. Next time you're both just snuggling, calm and quiet, talk to him. I firmly believe our kitties understand what we are saying to them as long as we aren't giving them mixed messages. If we're nervous and scared, they think there's a reason they should be nervous and scared too but if we are relaxed and comfortable, they are much more likely to be relaxed too.

You'll get there!

I’ve tried sweet talking and even singing upbeat and happy songs while attempting to test. I had a happy dance and everything. I felt ridiculous but he wasn’t feeling it. Maybe I’m a bad singer. LOL. I talk calmly and tell him he’s being a good boy (even when he’s not) and tell him in my sweetest voice that “it’s ok”. I say it like a broken record. I’ve literally taken every suggestion I’ve read on here and tried.

There’s so many times when I want to scream at him in frustration… But I bite my tongue an act as if he did nothing wrong (while fighting back pain and blood dripping from my arms).

But I’m determined to get this and will eventually if I refuse to accept failure. He’s too important to me. But for now, my biggest concern is that my inability to test is causing long-term damage that I won’t be able to undo. Too small of an insulin dose, for example.

Maybe there’s another way I could bribe him that doesn’t involve treats, food, brushing, sweeting talking, burrito wrapping… but for the life of me I can’t figure out what that would be. I’m open to any and all suggestions. Even if they’re completely out there. In fact, the crazier the better at this point. I’m desperate

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I know the urine strips are not able to show current levels but what do they show?

When you have diabetes, the pancreas isn't producing enough (or any) insulin. In a normal body, when you eat, as the food is broken down into glucose and enters the bloodstream, the pancreas releases just the right amount of insulin to keep the blood glucose under control. In a diabetic, we have to provide that insulin and (of course) we aren't anywhere near as precise as the pancreas would be, if it were working.

The kidneys also help filter out any extra glucose, but when there's so much of it, the kidney's just can't filter it all out so glucose "spills over" into the urine, which is why you have a positive glucose urine test. The point where the glucose "spills over" is called the renal threshold and can vary from cat to cat but is generally in the 240-280 range.

As long as you can do the urine glucose testing, while it's not as accurate as the blood testing, I think you could be giving him the insulin at a small, safe dose (.5 to 1U) and continue urine testing as often as possible.

If you get a negative glucose test, that's telling you that the insulin has controlled the blood glucose to the point where the kidneys can handle any extra and there's no glucose to "spill over".

What do you think?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I’ve tried sweet talking and even singing upbeat and happy songs while attempting to test. I had a happy dance and everything. I felt ridiculous but he wasn’t feeling it. Maybe I’m a bad singer. LOL.

Yeah....the problem is he knows how you feel. It's almost impossible to give off "happy vibes" when inside you're really screaming WHY????

For now, don't worry....be happy!! When the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, we will work it out. (how many song lyrics did you find?....LOL)

 

[Marje and Gracie]

There are ways to test using the paw. However I am not sure if he would cooperate for that either.

This is a very acceptable way to text for those cats that don’t like ear testing.

Lauren: here’s info on toe pad testing if you think someone has abused his ears. We also had a member that used urine glucose testing until she could poke Moonie’s ears. Let ne see what I can find.

 

[Lauren & Red]

When you have diabetes, the pancreas isn't producing enough (or any) insulin. In a normal body, when you eat, as the food is broken down into glucose and enters the bloodstream, the pancreas releases just the right amount of insulin to keep the blood glucose under control. In a diabetic, we have to provide that insulin and (of course) we aren't anywhere near as precise as the pancreas would be, if it were working.

The kidneys also help filter out any extra glucose, but when there's so much of it, the kidney's just can't filter it all out so glucose "spills over" into the urine, which is why you have a positive glucose urine test. The point where the glucose "spills over" is called the renal threshold and can vary from cat to cat but is generally in the 240-280 range.

As long as you can do the urine glucose testing, while it's not as accurate as the blood testing, I think you could be giving him the insulin at a small, safe dose (.5 to 1U) and continue urine testing as often as possible.

If you get a negative glucose test, that's telling you that the insulin has controlled the blood glucose to the point where the kidneys can handle any extra and there's no glucose to "spill over".

What do you think?

That’s certainly something I can do. Especially with my short BG test break. I really want to be testing BG frequently and hoping that with a little break, some hard work, easing into it, and refusal to give up I will get there sooner than later.

So you still think it’s safer for me to stay at 0.5 instead of increasing the dose slightly? Even though the urine glucose strips show a 500+ reading every time I test. And I’ve tested at various times throughout the day. I do prefer, “better safe than sorry”. But I worry about the insulin becoming resistant at a dose way too low for what he actually needs. Or the damage the high numbers are doing to his body.

 

[Lauren & Red]

This is a very acceptable way to text for those cats that don’t like ear testing.

Lauren: here’s info on toe pad testing if you think someone has abused his ears. We also had a member that used urine glucose testing until she could poke Moonie’s ears. Let ne see what I can find.

Thank you! Thank you!
I’m just trying to make the best of a bad situation and don’t know what to do. So there’s other people that have had an extremely difficult cat and eventually could ear test? That would be so nice to hear about.
Since my other non-diabetic cat is so easy and willing to test. I’m hoping if I keep testing him and giving lots of love and praise after. Maybe Red will start getting jealous and want to be a part of it too. Worth a shot…

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Thank you! Thank you!
I’m just trying to make the best of a bad situation and don’t know what to do. So there’s other people that have had an extremely difficult cat and eventually could ear test? That would be so nice to hear about.
Since my other non-diabetic cat is so easy and willing to test. I’m hoping if I keep testing him and giving lots of love and praise after. Maybe Red will start getting jealous and want to be a part of it too. Worth a shot…

Yes. I gave you the video of Junior and how Bonnie had to burrito him. He was very difficult to test.

I’ve looked back even on the old board and can’t find the info the member who used urine glucose testing. The only issue with doing that is that it takes time to clear glucose from the urine. That means, the BG can be normal but the urine still shows glucose. I don’t really know how long that might be but I’m guessing it could be delayed by 12-24 hours.

Tomorrow, I will contact her through FB and see what she says.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Lauren, Why don’t you take up the offer to have Carol come over and help you with the testing? Im sure she would be able to help you with it.
It’s is certainly worth trying. I remember I helped someone who was having trouble and they managed really well after that.
Carol may have some suggestions how to manage Red.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

So you still think it’s safer for me to stay at 0.5 instead of increasing the dose slightly? Even though the urine glucose strips show a 500+ reading every time I test. And I’ve tested at various times throughout the day. I do prefer, “better safe than sorry”. But I worry about the insulin becoming resistant at a dose way too low for what he actually needs. Or the damage the high numbers are doing to his body.

We're all concerned about this too but we are so data-driven here, it's against our nature to assume anything. The last thing any of us want to do is be responsible for hurting somebody else's cat.

That being said, before there were meters, the only way anybody could test was using the urine dipsticks. There are also thousands of cats that are never tested in their entire diabetic life because the caretaker doesn't know any better.

As long as you are home to keep a close eye on him, I think it would be OK to go up to 1U. Just make sure you have everything you'd need in case he shows signs of being too low.

Print these out in case you need them. (You never know when the internet will go out or the board will go down)

Symptoms of & how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA -what to do if your kitty experiences hypoglycemia

Jojo's Hypo Tool box - be prepared, what to have on hand in case of an emergency

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

@Lauren & Red
If you are going to give the dose of insulin without testing as @Chris & China (GA) suggested, I would not increase the dose to 1 unit but stay with the 0.5 unite as you have not given any insulin yet without testing and to increase the dose when you first start to try this would not be a good idea in my opinion.
I am not encouraging you to give the dose without testing but am saying, if you do, than please stay with the 0.5 unit dose.

 

[Lauren & Red]

Lauren, Why don’t you take up the offer to have Carol come over and help you with the testing? Im sure she would be able to help you with it.
It’s is certainly worth trying. I remember I helped someone who was having trouble and they managed really well after that.
Carol may have some suggestions how to manage Red.

It’s a 45 min drive and I would’ve taken her up on her kind offer if I was having issues with the testing itself. But my other cat is a breeze. I don’t want her to get hurt and even if she was able to help me, it’s not realistically helpful when I won’t have a second person going forward. I think it would be a waste of her time and she has already helped me so much. My mom has agreed to come when she can but her schedule makes it hard so the readings will be completely random times/days. But it’s better than nothing. Today I should be able to get a number with her help at +4. Fingers crossed.

 

[Lauren & Red]

We're all concerned about this too but we are so data-driven here, it's against our nature to assume anything. The last thing any of us want to do is be responsible for hurting somebody else's cat.

That being said, before there were meters, the only way anybody could test was using the urine dipsticks. There are also thousands of cats that are never tested in their entire diabetic life because the caretaker doesn't know any better.

As long as you are home to keep a close eye on him, I think it would be OK to go up to 1U. Just make sure you have everything you'd need in case he shows signs of being too low.

Print these out in case you need them. (You never know when the internet will go out or the board will go down)

Symptoms of & how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA -what to do if your kitty experiences hypoglycemia

Jojo's Hypo Tool box - be prepared, what to have on hand in case of an emergency

I totally understand everyone’s hesitancy to give advice without numbers. It has been made VERY clear how important they are and that no one recommends giving insulin without testing first.

With that being said, and all the problems I’m having, I’m in a situation where I have no other choice. I would never blame or hold anyone here responsible for any advice given.

I really appreciate your input despite not having blood test results. You never have to feel like you would be responsible for hurting my cat. Everyone is giving me wonderful advice. I also know what I “should be doing” and all of the risks involved without testing. But I also know the danger of not properly treating a cat who needs insulin as well.

I’m taking everything into account and the decision is ultimately mine. The only person responsible here for my cat is me. I’ve just been wondering what everyone else would do so I can factor in all in with the information I already have to come to the best conclusion for myself.

Thank you again!

 

[Lauren & Red]

@Lauren & Red
If you are going to give the dose of insulin without testing as @Chris & China (GA) suggested, I would not increase the dose to 1 unit but stay with the 0.5 unite as you have not given any insulin yet without testing and to increase the dose when you first start to try this would not be a good idea in my opinion.
I am not encouraging you to give the dose without testing but am saying, if you do, than please stay with the 0.5 unit dose.

Thank you for offering another opinion. As I said in my message prior to this, I’m very aware that no one is recommending I shoot without testing. With the urine strips as high as they are every time I test, I feel like I’m putting my cat at risk by not treating him with enough insulin. Yes, I know the risks involved without testing as well.
I wouldn’t be asking for advice if I didn’t clearly hear everyone’s warning about shooting blind. But given my situation, I have to make a decision where the outcome could go poorly either way. I’m just weighing all my options. And asking for any and all feedback and advice (to help ME decide).

 

[Lauren & Red]

My vet (well now ex-vet) as of yesterday has shared his opinion. Which is— not treating with the 2u twice a day as he prescribed is putting my cat at risk. He actually told me I was being “reckless”. But this is the same man who told me that testing was unnecessary and “paranoid”. He also told me I didn’t need to change the diet. So needless to say, his opinion is not being considered in my decision.

I did call a second vet who also recommended the 2u when I sent him Red’s labs. This vet told me that I could test if it made me more comfortable but it really wasn’t necessary. I will continue to look for a vet near me that encourages home testing. If one even exists.

My vet was right about one thing. I am paranoid. Which is why I always do research after any doctor or vet diagnoses or prescribe something to me. Most people trust the professional, because that’s who we have been taught to believe. It’s just incredibly surprising to me that a majority of vets seem to discourage home testing. Why has nothing been done to change or improve the quality of care? Not everyone is lucky enough to find this message board

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Why has nothing been done to change or improve the quality of care? Not everyone is lucky enough to find this message board

That's the million dollar question that we'd all love to know the answer to but basically, it comes down to the fact that vet schools only have 4 years to teach a little bit about everything. Vets get about half a day of education on diabetes and that covers all types of animals. They just don't have the time to spend weeks on each separate disease and the different treatments for different species of animal. The sad truth is that most people who get the diabetes diagnoses choose to euthanize so even vets that might want to encourage home testing can be hesitant to suggest it because they are worried that if they make treating it too involved, even more people would choose euthanasia.

What's really sad is when the caretaker obviously wants to do the most they can for their furkid and the vet discourages it.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

We're all concerned about this too but we are so data-driven here, it's against our nature to assume anything. The last thing any of us want to do is be responsible for hurting somebody else's cat.

That being said, before there were meters, the only way anybody could test was using the urine dipsticks. There are also thousands of cats that are never tested in their entire diabetic life because the caretaker doesn't know any better.

As long as you are home to keep a close eye on him, I think it would be OK to go up to 1U. Just make sure you have everything you'd need in case he shows signs of being too low.

Print these out in case you need them. (You never know when the internet will go out or the board will go down)

Symptoms of & how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA -what to do if your kitty experiences hypoglycemia

Jojo's Hypo Tool box - be prepared, what to have on hand in case of an emergency

I really disagree with this dosing advice and completely agree with @Bron and Sheba (GA). And there is absolutely no way I’d put him on 2u even if you were testing because you got BGs in the 100s even skipping shots.

I haven’t yet heard back from the member who did urine glucose testing but I will let you know as soon as I do.

If you’ve decided against toe pad testing, I really liked the suggestion of putting him in a chair next to you where he can’t moves you can use both hands and I’d even go a step further and burrito him. Please keep testing his ketones.

 

[Lauren & Red]

@Chris & China (GA) @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Marje and Gracie @StarburstMom @Daddy Jack's Mommy @Lisa and Witn (GA) @Ann & Sister

Guys, I need help!

OK, first of all if you ever hear anyone else talking about the urine test strips— please tell them they don’t mean anything! Every single time I’ve tested (and I have done so at least 2 to 3 times a day) the number has always been 500+ or even 1000. I was so worried that my cats numbers were incredibly high all day.

I can test with another set of hands. Unfortunately I just don’t have anyone to help very often.

My mom was able to stop by and hold him while I got the reading not too long ago.

So I have no AMPS. For insulin I stayed at 0.5 because I was still weighing my options for possibly increasing the dose or not.

Based on the urine strips, I was definitely leaning towards increasing towards 0.75. And thought that was likely not enough but better to go slow.

Technically today was probably 0.6 since I was so sure he needed more than I was giving.

I think I was VERY wrong. But truthfully, I still don’t understand how to interpret the numbers so I was hoping you could help and let me know if I should be worried?

15-20 min shy of +5 and his BG is 98! I don’t know if his lowest point is at five hours, six hours, seven hours or whatever. I know frequent testing is important for this very reason but as you know, I am unable to do so. My mom is coming back to help me test again but it won’t be for a few hours since she had to go back to work. I can’t test again until she gets here and I am kind of freaking out. What should I do? Is this a worrisome number or normal?

Urine test strips officially in the garbage can! How can the test strips be so high and his blood be so low? Can anyone make sense of it?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Well done getting the test!!!
Give him a good snack of normal low carb food now. let us know what the next test is

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

98 is a great (and totally safe) number!! Thanks "mom"!!

That's the problem with urine glucose testing. It can only tell you if the blood glucose has been above renal threshold some time since your cat peed. If Red pees every 8 hours (for example) then during that 8 hour period he could have been under renal threshold for some of it and over (and thus dumping glucose into the urine) for some of it. There's no way to know when or for how long he'd been above (or below) renal threshold.

 

[Lauren & Red]

98 is a great (and totally safe) number!! Thanks "mom"!!

That's the problem with urine glucose testing. It can only tell you if the blood glucose has been above renal threshold some time since your cat peed. If Red pees every 8 hours (for example) then during that 8 hour period he could have been under renal threshold for some of it and over (and thus dumping glucose into the urine) for some of it. There's no way to know when or for how long he'd been above (or below) renal threshold.

He pees a lot though. So you wouldn’t think it would build up so high. It doesn’t mean his blood glucose is ever that high, right? I guess I don’t understand the significance of blood versus urine numbers.

Does the number 98 mean that the insulin is working? For example, when I first found out he had diabetes a couple weeks ago, I made a significant diet change. I was hoping that would be all he needed because I have such a fear of needles. But if he didn’t need insulin, his number would probably be much lower/dangerous levels, right? Sorry I’m just trying to understand how to interpret the information (I know it’s hard/pretty much impossible with so little data and no BGs to interpret). But if there’s any insight you can give, I would appreciate it.

Is 98 still considered diabetic? What is the number for a non-diabetic cat, assuming that’s where everyone is trying to get with the right amount of insulin? Right? Wow, I’m confusing myself with these questions. LOL. Basically is there an ideal number at each point of the day /goal numbers we are trying to get in order to know we have the right amount of insulin /have the diabetes safely managed?

For the next test…
I couldn’t ask my mom to come back two more times tonight. She’s already working two jobs as it is. So, I thought it would be better if she came for the PMPS instead of now. She kindly agreed. However, it’s later than she usually stays up. So can I base my insulin dose by the +11? Or is that a no go because the AM insulin is still technically working. Still trying to piece everything together

I think I am more confusing when I started this response. Feel free to ignore whatever makes no sense which be honest, might be everything I just said.

 

[Lauren & Red]

Well done getting the test!!!
Give him a good snack of normal low carb food now. let us know what the next test is

The next test is in 2 hours and 15 min. That’s when the PMPS is supposed to be. However, that means my mom is staying up much later than usual to drive over and help me. I’m assuming I won’t safely be able to dose insulin unless I get the PMPS pretty close to the 12 hour mark? Or how does that work?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

It doesn’t mean his blood glucose is ever that high, right? I guess I don’t understand the significance of blood versus urine numbers.

If I'm understanding your question right, then the answer is no....just because the urine glucose is 500 doesn't mean the blood glucose is 500. They don't correlate like that.

Does the number 98 mean that the insulin is working?

In a word, yes. The insulin you give should lower the blood glucose...that's what insulin does...but finding the right dose, one that lowers it into normal numbers (50-120) as much time as possible, is a matter of trial and error, especially at first. It's important to remember that insulin is a hormone. It's not like a drug where you take 2 aspirin and your fever comes down...it's more like when you were a teenager and one minute you were laughing your head off and the next you were screaming and slamming doors. The effect can vary from cycle to cycle.

What is the number for a non-diabetic cat, assuming that’s where everyone is trying to get with the right amount of insulin?

What we are trying for is to find a dose that brings each cat down into normal numbers as much time as possible while not letting it drop them too low either. The pancreas in cats has the unique ability to heal and resume working. The more time they spend in normal numbers, the more "healing time" the pancreas gets.

However, it’s later than she usually stays up. So can I base my insulin dose by the +11? Or is that a no go because the AM insulin is still technically working.

Lantus craves consistency and works best when given as close to every 12 hours as possible. (Sorry Mom!) Giving it an hour early could act like a dose increase and then if you were to wait until your usual shot time in the morning, that'd be a 13 hour cycle which would act like a decrease in dose. Could you possibly change your shot schedule to earlier so Mom wouldn't have to be out so late to help you? (Not tonight...going forward until you get more comfortable testing alone)

 

[Lauren & Red]

If I'm understanding your question right, then the answer is no....just because the urine glucose is 500 doesn't mean the blood glucose is 500. They don't correlate like that.

In a word, yes. The insulin you give should lower the blood glucose...that's what insulin does...but finding the right dose, one that lowers it into normal numbers (50-120) as much time as possible, is a matter of trial and error, especially at first. It's important to remember that insulin is a hormone. It's not like a drug where you take 2 aspirin and your fever comes down...it's more like when you were a teenager and one minute you were laughing your head off and the next you were screaming and slamming doors. The effect can vary from cycle to cycle.



What we are trying for is to find a dose that brings each cat down into normal numbers as much time as possible while not letting it drop them too low either. The pancreas in cats has the unique ability to heal and resume working. The more time they spend in normal numbers, the more "healing time" the pancreas gets.



Lantus craves consistency and works best when given as close to every 12 hours as possible. (Sorry Mom!) Giving it an hour early could act like a dose increase and then if you were to wait until your usual shot time in the morning, that'd be a 13 hour cycle which would act like a decrease in dose. Could you possibly change your shot schedule to earlier so Mom wouldn't have to be out so late to help you? (Not tonight...going forward until you get more comfortable testing alone)

Thank you so much! That was incredibly helpful!!

No I wasn’t asking if I could change the insulin shot time. I was asking if I could test an hour before giving the insulin? If I can use that number to base the shot on, if that makes sense? I realize that the insulin needs to be 12 hours apart. But how significant of a number change is there typically from +11 to PMPS? Sorry… I think I’m just wording everything poorly because it’s all so unfamiliar.
Let me try another way— Can you ever determine insulin dose and safety at 12 hours based on a reading from +11?

The hard part about my mom is that she doesn’t have the same hours every day. So there’s going to be no possible way she can help before each shot every day and night. But she’s willing to come when she can. It’s at least better than nothing.

With the reading I had at +5, do you think it would be safe for me to give 0.5 again tomorrow morning? My mom won’t be able to come over for the AMPS. So it will have to be a blind shoot again.

Please remember, once again… Your advice is simply that. I know you can’t possibly know without a blood test if it’s safe or not. Just looking for an opinion that I will use along with all the other information I’ve gathered on this website and everyone else’s advice and make a decision that I and only I am responsible for. I know everyone’s hesitant to give advice without numbers so I just want to make it clear that I understand you don’t feel comfortable doing so and that you don’t recommend shooting without testing. Every time I decide to shoot without testing I will have no fingers to point or blame to place other than on myself.

Just looking for an opinion if you’re comfortable giving one. If not, I understand.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I understood what you meant....the answer is "it depends". A lot can happen between +11 and +12 but generally speaking, if he's high at +11, he's not going to be in an "unsafe to shoot" number an hour later. You're also going to be feeding him at shot time which is going to raise his BG too.

Have you thought about trying the Libre so you could get some testing without all the stress on you and your mom? I really think it would be very helpful for all of you.

 

[Lauren & Red]

I understood what you meant....the answer is "it depends". A lot can happen between +11 and +12 but generally speaking, if he's high at +11, he's not going to be in an "unsafe to shoot" number an hour later. You're also going to be feeding him at shot time which is going to raise his BG too.

Have you thought about trying the Libre so you could get some testing without all the stress on you and your mom? I really think it would be very helpful for all of you.

PMPS 403. So this is a mess and all over the place. I don’t understand what it means or how much insulin to give. My cat is starting to hate me. Once again, blood everywhere. Some his. Most mine. I did this one on my own but I’m hurt pretty bad again. It took almost an hour.
My own issues aside, how do I dose based on that number?
Feeling very hopeless that I will never get the hang of this.
Please don’t even ask me to test after insulin tonight. Because there’s just no way it’s happening. This last one was incredibly traumatic again.

I am not going to even post pictures of what my arms and legs look like… Because it would probably be too hard for people to see. So here I am crying again even though I’m trying to hold together. Please help me with dosing ASAP. Thank you

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

403 is more than high enough for insulin so go ahead and give the .5 unit dose again.

We keep suggesting the Libre ...is there some reason you don't want to try it?

 

[Lauren & Red]

403 is more than high enough for insulin so go ahead and give the .5 unit dose again.

We keep suggesting the Libre ...is there some reason you don't want to try it?

I just haven’t found enough information on it. And with everything since his diagnosis my credit cards are getting close to maxed out. I’m not saying no… I just need more information and some kind of financial plan (like robbing a bank—-kidding obviously). But I am in a hole and I keep digging myself deeper and deeper.
Too bad I can’t buy things with my blood. Because I have a lot of that lately.

Don’t you think the number is too high for only .5? Shouldn’t I do 0.75 at least? Or even 1? Maybe those urine strips weren’t so far off after all. I don’t think a half unit is enough. Do you?

 

[varlene]

@Lauren & Red It is interesting that Red is compliant for an insulin shot and not the ear prick. You should try to do the testing in the same place and manner in which Red feels comfortable enough to accept the shot.

When I first tried testing, it was a joke. I saw videos of people giving insulin to cats on beds or counters, but my Smoky would not cooperate at all and would just jump off and hide. It was impossible. I finally discovered that if I knelt down behind him on the floor to give him a little massage or as if I was preparing to put food into a dish next to him, he would relax and let me play with his ear from behind. From that position I could almost straddle him if necessary to keep him in place as I pricked his ear. Learning to stabilize underneath his floppy ear with a folded cosmetic round helped speed up the process (thank you @JanetNJ). My little guy actually comes to the same spot every time I call him when it is time to test his blood or give him his shot or a meal. It's a process, but hopefully Red will learn to trust you. Good luck to you!!

 

[Lauren & Red]

@Lauren & Red It is interesting that Red is compliant for an insulin shot and not the ear prick. You should try to do the testing in the same place and manner in which Red feels comfortable enough to accept the shot.

When I first tried testing, it was a joke. I saw videos of people giving insulin to cats on beds or counters, but my Smoky would not cooperate at all and would just jump off and hide. It was impossible. I finally discovered that if I knelt down behind him on the floor to give him a little massage or as if I was preparing to put food into a dish next to him, he would relax and let me play with his ear from behind. From that position I could almost straddle him if necessary to keep him in place as I pricked his ear. Learning to stabilize underneath his floppy ear with a folded cosmetic round helped speed up the process (thank you @JanetNJ). My little guy actually comes to the same spot every time I call him when it is time to test his blood or give him his shot or a meal. It's a process, but hopefully Red will learn to trust you. Good luck to you!!

I’m guessing you have associated the testing with something positive, like treats? Because that won’t work for me. I wish!

I am just a surprised as you about the insulin. The sight of needles makes me physically ill but it’s getting better. For shooting, I literally just find him wherever he is in the house. Then I give him some food. And when he’s done, I inject. Sometimes I’ll brush a bit first but he really seems to not care at all about the shots. i’m not sure he even notices I’m doing anything. Never thought in 1 million years I’d be saying that.

So I’m not giving up hope on ear pricks. But he gets significantly worse every time. It’s beyond discouraging. I thought I needed stitches the other night when I tried to burrito wrap him. Everything would be so much easier if he didn’t have claws. But I’m not going to be cruel and have them removed for my benefit

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Don’t you think the number is too high for only .5? Shouldn’t I do 0.75 at least? Or even 1? Maybe those urine strips weren’t so far off after all. I don’t think a half unit is enough. Do you?

Hi Lauren,
Yes, 0.5 units is enough insulin. Do NOT increase the dose. Please stay with the 0.5 units of Lantus for several reasons.
1. Red is probably bouncing from the 98 he got during the previous cycle. This is normal behaviour for a newly diagnosed kitty. Bounces can last for up to 6 cycles so don’t be surprised if he remains higher numbers. It doesn’t mean he needs more insulin.
2. We need the depot to fill, so we need the dose to stay the same for at least 5 to 7 days unless he drops under 50
3. Lantus dosing is based on the nadir ( lowest point in the cycle) not the preshot number.

 

[A Fae]

Hang in there it will come. I've been lucky with diabetic Ben & Groovy Angel I had to give subcutaneous fluids to for Kidney disease, they were both troopers. I had an all white cat, Rosy. She would have been a very different kitty. She would shed very bad if I picked her up and claw with her all to get away. I had her from a young kitten, it was just her personality.
Good luck and Best wishes from Fae and Ben!

 

[Daddy Jack's Mommy (GA)]

Good job getting those couple of BG tests! So you can see that the insuln was working because his BG was a healthy 98 @+5. And as Bron said, the high PMPS was likely a result of his BG bouncing because of the lower number. That 403 could also be a result of his stress, which elevates the blood glucose. Follow Bron's and Chris' advice and stay with .05. Don't worry about the difference in numbers from 98 to 403. The insulin needs time to work and his body needs time to adjust to it.

 

[Lauren & Red]

Hi Lauren,
Yes, 0.5 units is enough insulin. Do NOT increase the dose. Please stay with the 0.5 units of Lantus for several reasons.
1. Red is probably bouncing from the 98 he got during the previous cycle. This is normal behaviour for a newly diagnosed kitty. Bounces can last for up to 6 cycles so don’t be surprised if he remains higher numbers. It doesn’t mean he needs more insulin.
2. We need the depot to fill, so we need the dose to stay the same for at least 5 to 7 days unless he drops under 50
3. Lantus dosing is based on the nadir ( lowest point in the cycle) not the preshot number.

Good job getting those couple of BG tests! So you can see that the insuln was working because his BG was a healthy 98 @+5. And as Bron said, the high PMPS was likely a result of his BG bouncing because of the lower number. That 403 could also be a result of his stress, which elevates the blood glucose. Follow Bron's and Chris' advice and stay with .05. Don't worry about the difference in numbers from 98 to 403. The insulin needs time to work and his body needs time to adjust to it.

So I messed up! I didn’t hear from anyone for awhile and was already running behind on my time schedule waiting for a response. I didn’t know about a “bounce” and truthfully don’t quite understand what you guys mean by that.
I gave 0.75. Maybe a little less, it’s hard to tell without quarter markings. So I made a big mistake, huh??
How can I fix it? Ugh! I wish I understood how these numbers worked.

I will go back and read for the hundredth time. Every time I start to think I’m understanding a little bit, I do something like this and prove that I actually don’t get it still.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

So I messed up! I didn’t hear from anyone for awhile and was already running behind on my time schedule waiting for a response

Lauren, you have two threads going at the same time asking the same question. I would suggest staying with the one thread unless you are asking a completely different question about a different subject. That way things won’t get muddled.
You asked about increasing the dose at 2.11 according to my iPad timing and Chris answered you at 2.24 which is 13 minutes later. That is pretty good. You must give people time to answer you. We are all volunteers and we were probably helping someone else at the time.
Until you understand feline diabetes well, and it will take you some time to so this…just like everyone else in the beginning…..I would suggest you just follow the advice of the experienced people here….That is what I did in the beginning and what most other people do as well. Don’t try and understand it all at once! No one expects you to do this.

How can I fix it? Ugh

Can you get your mother to come over to do a test? If not make sure you leave plenty of food out for Red to eat.
If you are lucky, Red will keep bouncing and stay safe. Read the symptoms of a hypo and make sure you have some high carb food and honey or Karo there if needed.
HERE is the link to the hypo kit. Please print off and put on your fridge.
What I would do moving forward is this:

• Follow the advice of the experienced people
• Remember Red could be bouncing and stay in high numbers for up to 6 cycles but no not change the dose of insulin .
• Accept all the help that is offered to you.
  
• Make sure you have a hypo box set up

 

[JanetNJ]

I wanted to add... After a few days of desensitzing him to bring touched, then you can continue the desensitzing by just touching WITH the supplies out but not using them. Give cuddles and treats. When you are ready to poke again, try getting the drop of blood into the back of your nail and test from there rather than bringing the meter near his head.

 

[Lauren & Red]

I wanted to add... After a few days of desensitzing him to bring touched, then you can continue the desensitzing by just touching WITH the supplies out but not using them. Give cuddles and treats. When you are ready to poke again, try getting the drop of blood into the back of your nail and test from there rather than bringing the meter near his head.

I think the biggest problem is although I’m poking in the right spot, and I hear so many people say that it doesn’t hurt the cat… it seems to genuinely be painful for him.

He doesn’t even notice the insulin shot but the ear prick causes him to cry out loudly. I want to put lidocaine or something on his ear first but others said it wasn’t a good idea. Not sure why. I guess because it’s not for cats, but wouldn’t using it be better than not testing?

I just tried again and got blood like I always do but it was another major struggle and I was only able to get enough on my nail to fill half of the strip. So no reading. Another wasted 40 minutes. I want to scream!

If I could just find a way to make it hurt less. What I wanted to try was a topical lidocaine cream while he’s sleeping. Then maybe I can poke and he won’t even notice. Part of the problem is he always knows when I attempt to keep him in place. And the fight begins.

But if it hurts, I’m going to ruin my chance at finding a successful place to test. When he’s in his basket he feels secure and I know I can easily approach him and poke. But I’m only going to get one chance. I don’t want to ruin his safe space. If that makes sense? That’s why I haven’t tried it yet.

 

[Shelley & Jess]

Has anyone mentioned trying a calming product like a Feliway Pheromone Diffuser or Spray? May help reduce some of his anxiety.

 

[JanetNJ]

He doesn’t even notice the insulin shot but the ear prick causes him to cry out loudly

Are you avoiding the vein? Hitting the vein hurts more. Be sure to test the edge. Have you tried the other ear? Different spots along the edge? Doing it while he eats a snack? What size lancet are you using?

 

[varlene]

@Lauren & Red You've been on my mind. Once a month I give Advantage to my cats. My cat Leah can sense it and will not let me get near her. If I had to test her blood or give her shots, it would be absolutely impossible and I would be exactly where you are now with Red and wouldn't know what to do. This doesn't help you any, but I wanted to let you know that I wish I could wiggle my nose or wave a wand and make it all better for you. {{{hugs}}}