Tabby's numbers don't make much sense. please check and advise

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Bobbie And Bubba said:
Oh good, I will be anxious to hear how she likes it. My cats loved it. I don't give them the food anymore as I transitioned them to cheaper low carb food but, I do still give them the treats, especially at test time. I would say to get some +6 and +8 numbers on Tabby. Bubba was nadiring at +7-+8 and if I had not gathered that data, I would not have known that. It really is like a puzzle.
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Matt, go with Sue recomendations,, she has been doing this for a long time with great success.
 
Matt, I am going out on a limb here, most vet have limited exposure to diabetic cats because most people euthanize their cats when they get the diagnosis of diabetes. These peeps on this forum have so much knowledge on diabetic cats. Let them guide you. I have complete faith in them to guide me.
 
Matt, I was just looking over some of the past post of yours on this thread. Just know that I have made a lot of mistakes in trying to regulate Bubba. I am trying hard not to beat myself up but to look at them as a learning curve because that is what this dance is all about, a learning curve. There are no set rules, Every Cat is Different (ECID) and it is so frustrating, but every time I read on the forum that someone's cat goes into remission, I am so pumped. We can do this with everyone's help!!:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Matt - My prozinc bottles go over six months. The one that I am using now is one that I bought the end of February, 2015. I would just go to the end (I hate wasting) and you may find that yours will last that long. As long as you don't shake it (roll it instead) and you don't drop it, it should last to the end. When I start a new bottles, I watch the numbers like a hawk and will typically may decrease the dose by 0.20 just in case it is more potent. Usually after a couple of cycles, I go right back to my current sliding scale and find that it is not that much potent than my old bottle. I always indicate on my spreadsheet when I purchase a bottle so I can keep track of it just in case.
 
Yep, Cindi's right! Some people get a new bottle of insulin after awhile when they they see the numbers suddenly go higher for no reason...you're not there from what I see. Just keep an eye on it and take care of it and it should last. I used mine all the way til the end!
 
Thanks.. tabby was high at 6am +12 this morning tested at 457 seems to be high in the mornings past 3 I think.. drinking lots of water this morning too. Not sure what is causing the bounce or if she is just eatting herself high at night. I'm not liking this bounce thing if that's what is taking place... and I do roll my viva or tip side to side slowly and when transporting when we go out of town I keep it with a cooler pack so it won't get hot as well. I'm pretty anal about that stuff and don't wanna mess up.
 
We have to figure out if that amps is a bounce, Matt. Please try to set the alarm and test in that 5-7 range tonight. If not a bounce, we need to raise the dose.
 
I just feel the need to echo Sue here. Setting the alarm and getting a nadir tonight is super crucial. That's the only way we can know what's going on and figure out what a good next step would be. Please please get a nadir tonight!
 
Tabby read at +7 which was at 1am she was at 184.... this morning at 6 am which is +12 she was at 112... I waited and tested again she is the same. I gave no shot this morning... I have no idea how she got that low this morning..
 
That was a good call not to shoot that low of a number. Good job getting the +7 number. That will help Sue and Oliver to help guide you with your dosing. Your are doing a great job Matt!
 
Oh I know. Sometimes, Bubba looks like he's going into the green zone and I am prepared to be up a lot through the night to test him to make sure he is safe, and then bam, he bounces back up high......it's like Sue says, it's a dance, the cats are leading and they are the only ones that hear the music......
 
Well that wasn't what I expected. What was her PMPS, Matt? Can you add to the spreadsheet (sorry...I'm having problems making sense of the numbers...it helps me to see it.)

Good job on the no shot thing! That was definitely the answer for this morning.
 
I can't yet been working on fixing spread sheet. Will have them up later I'm at work now. She was in the 300's I believe when we tested at 6 pm +12 she got 2 units last night.. I'll get it updated later. Or will check my notes at lunch time and post on here. Thanks u guys. Have a good morning
 
Wow, Matt! It looks like she finally "broke through". My guess is that she has been getting too much insulin and bouncing and then today, just crashed. This is great news but I agree, looks confusing. You did the perfect thing by stalling and then skipping. An amps that low, insulin lasting longer than 12 hours means the dose is too high.

Tonight, she will most likely be high, because she is 24 hours since the last shot. BUT still lower the dose - maybe to 1.5. My thinking is that you don't want to give the same dose that gave you the 112. It may take her a few cycles to get back on track, but you want her in safe numbers as you can't monitor that often, and you want two shootable numbers every day.

Make sense?

Marje has an idea about the spreadsheet. I'll add the numbers today and then send you how to try on your laptop. Meanwhile, I'll add your new numbers. Let me know what last night was when you find it.
 
No still Japanese to me lol. What u mean by breaking through? So her 2 units is causing her to go low and bounce? I was figuring the vet wanted her numbers to be lower cause she never came into the 100's before that's why she said to do 2 units twice a day. I'm stilling figuring out how this is suppose to work. And what numbers she should be daily. Information overload I must say lol. Makes my brain hurt. I must say that she seems more active lately tho and more social tho
 
It's that Every Cat is Different thing. Her body seemed to absorb the 2 units for a lot of cycles, probably going low at nadir some of the time and then bouncing up for amps. Then finally it said, Enough! And just stayed down there. I am guessing because you only have the pre shots. People who can test more often have a clearer picture - more numbers make things easier to figure out.

We consider a cat regulated (the first goal) if they are in the mid 200s at preshot and in double digits at nadir, but above 50 which is approaching hypo territory. Cats off insulin, in remission, range from 40-120.

I hope there will be a day (or night) - maybe this weekend- when you can get a curve. You test at +2/4/6/8/10 or some variation of that. It will give you a better idea of what is really happening with the insulin. And then you can adjust the dose better.
 
Yea my work schedule and needs of sleep make it hard. I did get a +7 last night I can try maybe a + 8 or + 10 tonight? Should I stick with the 2 units then so numbers are consistent ? Or see where she is at tonight at +12 first then post on here and see what dose we should do...
 
I'd reduce to 1.75 even though she is likely to be high. See my reasoning in the previous post. Yes, any number at night is good.

She may float along a little higher for awhile if you reduce. But the other possibility is that she will drop low when you aren't there or she will be too low to shoot. When you skip (which you needed to do this am) it's a set back for awhile. But if she drops too low and you are not around, it could be deadly. Better too high for a day than too low for a minute.....
 
Wow that +7 is interesting and actually some good news. Makes me wonder what she is doing around +5 or +6? Can't wait to see the curve as that should tell us more.
 
Guess I'm confused of why low this morning is good with no shot because she will be high later. I understand shooting low is bad. But the low number this morning what is that telling us? Is her body producing some insulin naturally off and on maybe remission opertunity? That be a dream come true for her. Hope one day
 
The low number this morning tells us the insulin lasted longer than 12 hours as she was still dropping at +12. That is usually an indicator of a dose that is too high. You want a dose that give you 2 pre shot numbers low enough to shoot. That keeps her on an even keel, getting enough insulin twice daily to keep her in good ranges. Having to skip means, yes, you are likely to have a high number tonight.

The other possible reason for the low number this morning is that her pancreas started working and kept the number lower longer. If so, this isn't a on/off thing. It sputters - working for a few hours and then not. But I am guessing this is not the case. We usually see a sputtering pancreas when they are in lower numbers overall. But not always. Every cat is different. :banghead:

Remission is a real possibility for every cat. Our ProZinc records are one week on insulin and two years on insulin. A cat's pancreas can heal, unlike humans. You just keep giving the insulin as they need it until the pancreas starts doing its job again. This is not a given for every cat. There are cats on the Lantus forum still posting who have been on insulin for 6+ years. But they are the exception, not the usual. The thing that is usually a constant is that it takes time for most cats - often 6 months to a year.
 
Hi Matt and Tabby!!
Matt, don't get down about what Sue just told you. Remission is always going to be on our hopeful minds!! I figured Tucker was going to be the first miracle cat on here!! And we would be in remission pronto.
Build your stamina with this hope, you & Tabby are going in the right direction.
And as all have said already..you're doing an excellent job ok
 
I have to go to a meeting so I can't get on computer tonight.. tabby was at 317 last night at 6pm +12 gave 2 units... at 1 am +7 she read 184... at 6 am s+12 he read 112 no shot... at 1pm +7 she read 332... at 6:30pm +12 this evening she read 339.. gave her 1.5 units..
 
I'm with Sue. Her numbers are very encouraging right now. The low AMPS you had today meant the insulin lasted too long...which is why you want to lower the dose. Hopefully with less insulin, you'll get it to not last too long and can shoot 2 x a day. :)

You're doing great!
 
If I remember correctly, tomorrow is your long day between your AM & PM preshots. So hopefully, you will have a shootable number tomorrow morning. Tabby is looking good tonight. Way to go on your testing!
 
Not bad. 50% 4 hours in. Hope you can get a 6/7 or 8. Whenever. It would be great to see if she drops low at nadir. That would explain the higher amps number.
 
Ok last night numbers fold and this morning.. at 10:30 pm which is +4 she was at 170 and at 12:30pm which was +6 read at 139... this morning at 6am +12 read at 313 gave 1.5 units
 
Great! Your sleepless night helps us. So she has a nice, slow drop into good numbers and then bounces a little for the amps. Not a super low nadir and not a dangerous one, but a nice drop.

So, if you were a bean who could monitor carefully we might suggest upping the dose a smidge at this point - not back up to 2 units but eyeballing 1.75. That would be the more aggressive approach. Trying to see if a little more would drive her numbers down some but not too much, still giving you two shootable numbers a day. - which 2 units didn't do.

But you aren't. You have a demanding job and you are doing a great job, losing sleep to get the numbers you can. So my advice is to keep with the 1.5. She may slowly start giving you lower numbers with some higher ones thrown in. It isn't as fast as the more aggressive approach and you may have to up the dose at some point anyway, but it is the safest route. She is good ranges most of her cycle, day and night. She is below the renal threshold most of the time, the range at which her pancreas should be able to heal. You are doing a great job keeping her safe - the number one thing!

Is she feeling okay? Good energy, eating well, litter box okay?

I hope this makes sense. Today is the weird cycle when you dose late so we won't worry about it. Just keep on doing what you are doing.
 
Kinda makes sense what is the renal threshold hold? What should though numbers be guess I'm asking. Her eatting comes and goes. She doesn't eat as much as she us to because she was on dry and now on wet friskys pate and fancy feast classic. I did order in young again zero carb dry food and treats and a supplement powder for the food which should be arriving today. Far as bathroom behavior she still pees more then usual and doesn't seem to go number 2 as often as she use to but again could be from food. Sometimes I have to put the food bowl in from of her and she will eat for a few min then pretty much grazes rest of the day. Her mood seems to be more social and playing like. Sometimes she does hid it seems like when she is high or when her numbers are falling she sometimes wants to nit be sceen. Weekends she comes up to cleveland with me to stay at my girlfriends place the car rides she is getting use two and seems to enjoy being in a different environment over the weekends. . At this point anything to make her healthy and to heal I'm all ears or any supplements and or tricks for better health
 
Watch to see if the zero carb dry brings up her numbers. It does with some cats. It's okay for her to graze on the wet for 8 hours or so.

There is a renal threhold, under we think the pancreas can be healing. Because it's a cat and there is little research, we guess it's around 250-280 and below. Just a good reference to shoot for. Sounds like she is enjoying life otherwise.
 
I'd be cautious. Maybe .5. My thinking is she is just barely over our cut off pre shot number of 200 and she is getting the dose 2 hours late. Most likely if she was at +12, she would be too low to shoot.

So I'd dose less. It is overnight and you want her to be safe and you don't want to monitor. Could you get a before bed test?

PS. This is good news. Any lowering of the numbers is good news!
 
Yea I can dose .5 and test before bed time which would be around midnight here which would be +3 after her shot then. Curious why she stayed low today never seen that before except that one day where I didn't dose in the morning
 
Thanks. Asking as many questions as I can so I can learn. If the insulin is lasting longer then 12 hours does that mean the dose needs to come down or is this something that happens with prozinc where it can go longer then 12 hours
 
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