? Switching to Prozinc - a couple general questions

Good to know, thanks for explaining it to me. :) She did struggle a bit pushing it out, she got fed up when it got stuck in her long hair and just pulled it out herself lol. Is the pumpkin something you can add regularly and it won't affect BG levels? She's pretty good about her water intake and almost always has really good bowel movements.

Gotcha. So actually instead of introducing an insulin/dosage and just basing it off a curve (like what a vet does), a cat should start on one dosage and keep it there at least a few days with spot checks and then determine whether to increase/decrease/maintain?

Ooh, Linda, since I noticed in your signature - I keep seeing the term civvie around but can't figure out what that means XD
 
Plain pumpkin won't affect BG adversely and if it solves a GI issue, it could help improve BG. Just make sure it's plain pumpkin...there is sugar in the pie filling pumpkin and our kitties are already extra sweet.

Panic said:
So actually instead of introducing an insulin/dosage and just basing it off a curve (like what a vet does), a cat should start on one dosage and keep it there at least a few days with spot checks and then determine whether to increase/decrease/maintain?
Click to expand...

You got it. A curve done in the vet's office comes with another issue. Most cats get stressed out at the vet causing elevated BG. The vet sees those higher numbers and assumes kitty needs more insulin. There is no way to determine how much of the BG at the vet is the result of stress and how much is what is really occurring day to day under normal circumstances at home.

Civvies are our non-diabetic kitties! :D
 
Ah good! I'll see if I can snag a can of plain pumpkin to keep on-hand then. :D

That makes total sense. Not to mention how there always seems to be one or two barking patients that are at the vet for the day >.<

I wondering if that was it!! Haha at first I was like "what breed is this that EVERYONE seems to have" LOL.

+3 was 295 - she dropped 200 points! I should check at +4 then to see if she's still dropping?
 
Just checked SS (was typing as you posted:)) and liking what I see. FINALLY a cycle that is looking more normal with BG heading down instead of up. That's quite the drop between pre-shot and +3. Might want to grab a +4 just to be on the safe side. You could give Panic a little snack to see if that slows her down a bit. Large drops like that often cause a bounce so numbers may go high again later but that's a normal phenomenon you just have to ride out.
 
I have to admit I'm a little giddy. I agree, I won't be disappointed if it goes up after this due to a bounce - just happy to see a decrease for once! I made her a little "stew" just now with some water and her FF and she seemed to enjoy it.
 
+4 tested at 197! Even more dropping! 0: I gave her some more food to help. When should I test next?
 
That was a good idea to offer her some more food. Another 100 points down so I'd test at +5. We need to figure out when her nadir is and it might not have happened yet so a little closer tracking today is prudent to keep her safe.
 
+5 she is at 230. ^-^ Does this mean her nadir is around +4? Should I test any more today aside from PMPS?
 
@Djamila what is the minimum amount of food that MUST be taken with ProZinc? Someone on the main health forum said they thought it was a full tablespoon but she wasn't sure and to double check. I can't seem to find info on minimum food consumption unless I'm just largely overlooking it somewhere.
 
It looks like she is on her way up now and that may mean she's past nadir or that a bounce from the lower number is starting. That was a huge drop today and too many factors to know for sure when nadir will normally be for Panic on ProZinc.

As far as eating, I think if panic eats at least half of her regular portion of food, you should be fine. I don't think anyone can tell you # of tbsp. because every cat's calorie needs are different. You need to know she has eaten, and will eat. Djamila may have a different opinion.

I'd grab one more test around +7 or +8 just to gather some more data. All data is helpful, then give Panic and you a rest.
 
Okay, so spot checking around between +4 and +7 will paint a better picture for when her nadir really is?

The reason I wonder about minimum food requirement is Panic is not naturally a big eater. Right now she could eat an entire 3oz can of FF for breakfast - just a couple weeks ago she would polish off two 3oz cans if I let her. Out of all my cats though, Panic has never been one to finish a meal - just 3 or 4 bites and she's done until later - so I worry about how hard it might be getting her to eat "enough" when she gets to feeling better.

Will do! Thank you so much for watching Panic with me today ^-^
 
Yes spot checks in the mid part of the cycle will help you determine when nadir usually occurs. It can wobble around with some cats and in others, you could practically set your watch by them. Nadir time can also change over time even in the most predictable cat so concentrating on when peak action generally occurs is very helpful. Grabbing tests before and after that time frame is also helpful periodically or if you are unable to test in that mid cycle. All data helps.
Panic sounds she's usually a grazer so you may have to settle for knowing that she WILL eat and just leave the food out for her so she can eat if and when she feels the need. If BG starts dropping, they will eat unless there is something else going on causing appetite issues. As long as she is eating and behaving normally for her, she will be fine.
 
I read somewhere treating FD is like a "moving target" so that definitely sounds right haha!

You're right, she's most definitely a natural grazer. Thank you for that, that makes me feel a little better about her eating habits.

+7 was 245... I guess I'm a little surprised. Kinda expected her to bounce. o:
 
For the first day on ProZinc and that major drop in the early hours, that is an impressive number at +7 especially when compared to what her numbers have been lately. Anxious to see what her PMPS is tonight.
 
So many things!

First of all, really great cycle! Hooray!!!! (and good call, Linda on the starting dose!)

Pumpkin: I would just add that pumpkin in moderation doesn't impact BG. It is a carb. Sam loves it, so when I started giving it to him and had read that it didn't impact BG, I just kept giving him more and more. Turns out that a lot of pumpkin can give quite the BG spike....not to mention what it did to the litter box! :eek: So, maybe use like a teaspoon of pumpkin or so. Not a whole plate! :cat: Also, I use a mini-ice cube tray to freeze the rest of the can so that I don't waste it all. Then when he needs some I just thaw it out.

Food before Prozinc: Doesn't really matter how much. The thing is to make sure that she's eating and hasn't gone off her food. The onset is typically around +2, and tends to be gentle enough that as long as they are eating, the amount isn't that important. If Sam really isn't hungry at shot time I'll give him a couple of pieces of freeze dried chicken or salmon. If he shows enthusiasm for them (which he usually does), then I know he's fine and just doesn't want a meal right this second. If he doesn't eat treats, or eats them with hesitation, I'll delay the shot until I can get some food in him (he has chronic pancreatitis so goes off his food far too often).

Nadir: yes, it moves. Sigh. If only it would always be at the same time! And I agree about curves. If you look at my spreadsheet, I could be wrong, but I think it's been years since I've done a full curve. Although I did do more of them when Sam was newer at this and was changing things up on me all the time.

If I missed something, let me know :)

I'm so excited to see some better numbers on Panic's spreadsheet:cat::bighug:!
 
PMPS was 430 ... not sure how I feel about that lol.

Yes! Overall I'm really really pleased with how she did today! Glad we went with 2u too!

Oof, good point about the pumpkin. Freezing the rest is such a good idea - I remember getting her plain pumpkin when she first got sick and wouldn't eat and the whole can just went to waste! It was a big can too XP

That is really good to know about Prozinc...wow I just love this insulin already. That also makes me feel better because my friend will be caring for her in a few months and I've been really paranoid about her potentially not wanting to eat on command. Though I guess she's always eaten at the vet's office for her curves!

I think you covered everything ... thought I had another question but it's slipped my mind after such a long day haha. Oh but okay, @Djamila how late do you feed Sam during the night? I have an auto feeder but Panic doesn't like sleeping inside at night (cries until she gets let out, ugh) and leaving the feeder outside just attracts swarms of ants. Is night feeding critical?
 
Well I can't say that 430 is totally unexpected but I'd hoped it wouldn't be that high. Hope it wasn't a fur shot but they happen and tomorrow is a new day. I'll defer to Djamila regarding the feeding at night.
 
I think that's how I felt about it too, Linda. Time will tell I suppose. And yes, fingers crossed to a new day and an even better cycle. ^-^ I emailed my vet a graph of her curve (I must have designed a good four or five little charts to help me with recording information) and told her how pleased I was already.
 
I don't think you'll like my answer about nighttime. I think you need to train her to stay in at night. Cats generally run lower at night than they do during the day, so being outside without food all night isn't safe. I am not at all unsympathetic to how hard that would be on all of you, but I can't in good conscience say that it's safe to let her roam with injected insulin and no food or human who could respond if she drops. My only suggestions would be to give her outdoor time during the day if that's practical and safe. Then give her a good long play session to tire her out before bed, and maybe try something soothing like rescue remedy or feliway, then put in some ear plugs? I know it would be incredibly difficult. I just don't know what else to suggest besides retraining.

You could try posting on the Main forum and asking for help/suggestions about this. Other folks with more experience with outdoor cats might have other suggestions.
 
I have read some people give food right before they themselves go to bed, or leave food out at night. It just doesn't work when I have ants outside from April to November every year. We just built a big new front porch and the roof is in progress. I was thinking about, once the roof is up, setting up a little "moat" to keep the ants out of her feeder and keeping it on the porch out of the elements, but for now I'll try to make her stay inside. My hands are tied a bit because the rest of my family doesn't want any cats roaming the house at night so I'll have to convince her to stay shut up in my room.
 
How much and how often should food be offered throughout the night (like with a feeder)? Free-feeding isn't an option, if she didn't eat it all in one sitting herself the dog would...and leaving the dog out of the room is not negotiable lol. Last time I was away and kept the cat in the room by herself the dog got so mad (it's "her" room) she tore the door frame siding off the wall.
 
Best option for the night would be an auto feeder and with the dog in the picture perhaps one that uses microchip technology so the only one it will open for is Panic. They can be pricey but also worth their weight in gold when you have multiple pets that you don't want pilfering another's food.
How is Panic this AM?
 
I kept her in last night (didn't get any sleep tho, sigh) and luckily the dog stayed in bed with me and didn't touch the feeder. When I just finished filling it though and stepped outside to bring Panic in by the time I got back the dog had already swiped the food from the open compartment. :mad: A microchip feeder may be a good idea ...

She was 480 this morning. I was disappointed but then I remembered she got at least a partial fur shot last night. It was super weird, I checked to make sure it was under the skin and not poking out the other side, felt her fur after and was dry. But a minute later I was petting her and it felt a little wet and smelled like insulin so. :/
 
Furshots have happened to most if not all of us and all you can do is chalk it up to "crap happens" and carry on. It might not have been as much of a furshot as you think and part of that BG this AM might be some bouncing from being in better numbers yesterday...time will tell. This sugar dance definitely requires a lot of patience.

Sounds like you need some noise cancelling ear protection. Hopefully Panic will get use to staying in at night very soon!
 
Good point, I hadn't considered that. It's definitely a marathon.

Lol I'd rather re-teach her to use the litter box so she can be allowed to roam the house at night. All she wants to do is snooze under the kitchen table but she doesn't want to use the boxes anymore. Idk what is it, no matter where I move them she'd rather just go on the carpet. The sides are low enough for her too.
 
Well I know it's not practical, but putting a litter box near the trouble spot might help if it's a particular spot on the carpet. Also laying foil wrap on the area to deter her. Have you tried different types of litter? Perhaps something a little more like where she goes outside....softer like wheat based or such? It's a conundrum to be sure.
 
I would, but the main spot is literally in front of my parents' bedroom door and they are not happy with her. I've tried blocking the areas by setting other stuff where she tends to go but she'll just go beside whatever I lay down. Maybe I should just fill a litter box up with dirt from outside and see what she thinks.
 
Are you sure you've managed to get the smell totally out of the carpet? Even if we can't smell anything sometimes they do and it draws them back to that spot. I have a very old kitty who has accidents on my area rug periodically and it's really hard to be sure you have gotten all the smell out of the carpet even if you can't smell anything. They will re-use the same or a close spot if they smell their leavings.
 
I have not gotten the smell 100% out yet, I know that's part of it. In fact I had purchased Nature's Miracle enzyme cleaner and had been spraying it each time but the smell lingered. Last week I read that taking off the spray cap and just POURING the cleaner into the carpet is going to do a better job, so I used the last of my cleaner on the spot in front of parents' bedroom and behind my bedroom door where she also likes to go. It definitely helped, I can barely smell it now, but it's going to need more work. Actually I was going to look into buying some in bulk but whew it's expensive.
 
That's still almost a 100 point drop so not too bad. Yes would like to see it lower but if she is bouncing probably just as well not to have a big drop today or the bounce might be keeping the drop at bay.
 
I can understand your folks not wanting her inside if she's peeing on their carpet!

Cat often do that to tell us they aren't feeling well, so maybe as her numbers improve, she'll rediscover the joys of using the litter box. ;)

Is there somewhere up high in your room that you could put the feeder? On top of a desk or dresser? Just thinking that might stop the dog from getting to it, but still allow Panic to eat....? Or if she's enough smaller than the dog, maybe in the closet with the door blocked to only open enough for Panic to get through?
 
We actually brainstormed for a long time about that - it's a standard dachshund so she's basically the size of a cat herself, so finding somewhere only a cat could squeeze through was off the table. The other problem was Panic isn't feeling well enough to jump up on anything, else I'd just stick it on the dryer or something. I made a big deal praising Panic just yesterday because she climbed from the chair I was in to my desk!

I had considered a baby gate with maybe a teeeny hole that only a flexible cat could squeeze through but my dog is very very smart and very food driven, she'd probably either rip the gate off or damage the wall/door it's propped against. She's very destructive concerning food and "her" stuff.

I think I've found a solution though and it definitely helps the dog decided not to bother with the feeder at night. ^-^
 
Omg I sat for a dachshund once ... They only use their intelligence for mischief! We put the cat’s food on the dining room table to keep it from him, but one day came home and found the food bowls all knocked around and licked clean like the cat would *never* do ... and yet still smack in the middle of the dining room table! The dog’s legs were only four inches long or something ... how did he get up there?!? o_O :banghead:
 
YES, that is exactly how they operate Jenna!! They are ornery little things! I bet he made up his own steps out of furniture nearby to get up there!

One time my family all went on vacation and our dachshund was left on her own in the house a lot (not a good idea). My sibling had a pack of Little Debbie treats up on his top bunk...this was a HUGE bunk bed, at least six feet tall and no ladder either. That dog had gotten UP THERE and eaten them ALL and then GOT DOWN. We couldn't figure it out! Our best guess, there was a dresser nearby (not up against, but close by) and the drawers had been pulled out and we could see scratch marks on them...she must have pulled the drawers out and climbed up them and jumped over somehow, it definitely wouldn't have been easy. I can't believe she didn't break her leg or back coming back down. :eek:

PMPS was 421 for Panic!
 
I'd hold the course for the moment. She is likely in a bounce from that blue yesterday and that can take a few cycles to clear. She hadn't seen a blue range number since the end of May so it's all new to her.
 
I hope you're right! I'm anxious to see what her numbers look like in a week or two. :)
Vet just emailed me back after I sent her yesterday's results, she's really pleased as well!
 
AMPS was 290, +2 was 350, +5.5 was 410 and at +8 I got a possibly inaccurate ketone test of Trace. She finished peeing (on the carpet, sigh) right as I got the stick over to her and I wiped it against the carpet, so might not be accurate. Got her some pumpkin this afternoon (she's still constipated I noticed) and her food from last night went untouched...I think she didn't realize the feeder had food in it since I had it sitting there empty during the day prior. She's seemed in a really good mood though, wanting in my lap (she rarely does it anymore but pre-diagnosis she ALWAYS got in my lap the second I'd sit down), good appetite. The possible Trace test makes me nervous though.
 
Looks like that really was a fur shot this AM. It happens. How is Panic's hydration? Check her scruff but pulling it up and seeing if it returns to normal position immediately or takes some time to settle back down. Also you can check her gums to see if they are sticky or moist? encourage her to take in more fluids by adding water to her food if she will eat it that way. I take it she is eating ok when she realizes food is available?
The possible furshots make me a little reluctant to say increase just yet but if she is still high tomorrow morning, I think an increase to 2.25u would be a good idea.
 
That's really frustrating. I double checked her fur just now and I think I'm clear that her PM shot was good (tested 344). Hard to see too well with all that fluff but I think her scruff snapped back just fine, gums don't feel sticky. I've been adding extra water to every meal, and yes she's got a good appetite each time.

She also feels EXTRA fluffy today, I don't know how to explain it but just feels super soft and more "full" fur-wise. I had my mom pet her and see and she was surprised and agreed, so I'm not just imagining things. I can only hope maybe that means she was feeling extra good and gave herself a proper bath or something. xD
 
I'll do my best. <3 Oh, before I forget, concerning the pumpkin should she only get about a teaspoon a day, or can she have some for both breakfast and dinner?
 
I've never used pumpkin myself because my little rascal would have none of it...refused to eat any on its own and it sullied his food in his opinion. I think the "dose" is about 1 to 2 tbsp. per day.
 
Yes, morning and evening should be fine. And if she's actively constipated you might go ahead and go with Linda's suggestion of a tablespoon to get things cleared out.

Are you making a tent to do the injection? I found it easier with Sam (he has very thick fur for an alley cat!) to grab a hunk of fur, and pull up and sort of roll it back a little until I could see a little line of skin. Then inject a little more up and down into the visible skin. That way I knew it was going in and not just getting tricked by his fur (which used to happen way too often!). It also avoided the in-and-out thing since the needle was more straight down (pulling up on the fur makes a gap between skin and muscle that you can inject into so you aren't hitting muscle or anything else).
 
I gave her a bit around 4pm when I got back from the store to get her started at least, poor thing.

She really doesn't have enough "fat" for me to work with to make a tent anywhere on her body, her skin is very thin and "tight" so to speak. I do the roll method (though I stick it parallel to her body rather than up/down) but there's just so little to work with it goes right out the other side. I switched her to U100 needles since the U40s were way too big but still struggle. I always touch to make sure I can't feel it out the other side and then let go of the needle to make sure it sticks and is actually inside her skin and not just the fur. Maybe it's still going through her skin but when I check all I feel is her thick fur? It's a puzzle. I'm hoping when she gains more weight it'll be easier. Recently I was sitting with my 11 lb tomcat and pretended to pull up some fur like I was going to inject him - SO much easier than Panic. I feel like a fur shot would literally never happen, there was so much loose fur and fat to work with!
 
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You got a blue PS?!?! Next time that happens, try stalling for about 30 minutes (without feeding), and test again. Prozinc wears off pretty fast at the end, so most of the time in a higher-number cat, a little extra time is all you need to be able to stick with the full dose.
 
I know!! I don't know if she's dropping just in general or if she didn't get any food last night...I fed her a heap of food right before bed around +3 and set up her feeder but all the other cats were FASCINATED with the new "food machine"...food was gone this morning but hard to say who got into it. Hopefully the sound it made spooked everyone except her. I'm going to separate her tonight and see what happens.

I'm going to TRY and see if she'll let me test before feeding her next time. I've never tried it before but she also has never had such a low PS number! :eek:
 
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