Squeaka Question 3/4/13 - BG going down unexpectantly??

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Squeaka Dose Question for tonight. 2/25/13

All of the numbers you're seeing are well within the margin of error for blood glucose meters. So he's not really rising or falling to any big degree. And as far as BG numbers go, they are within the high range of normal, or just above it.

I think I would withhold insulin tonight.

It is likely that there is still "some" insulin in his system as Lantus is a "depot" type insulin, and the depot can take some time to completely clear his system. Especially since his prior doses were fairly large ones. There is also his recent hypo episodes to consider, and the chance that he might be more sensitive to insulin at the moment.

I think I would continue to monitor. His numbers might continue to creep up. If they do, then that would indicate that "some insulin" is needed. Should that happen, we can try to help figure out how much would make sense.

I have a feeling that the right dose is one unit or even less. I don't see any numbers that would suggest 2u makes sense, or even 1.5 at this point in time.

Just my opinion.

Carl
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for tonight. 2/25/13

Thank you.

You're advice makes sense. I think I'll withhold the insulin and check his levels again later.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for tonight. 2/25/13

I agree with your instincts to skip tonight. His number is still not that high for his last shot being almost 24 hours ago. Let's let that insulin clear out of his system a bit and evaluate tomorrow.

You can try feeding small meals several times a day instead of just a couple of larger meals. If his pancreas is trying to work, small meals are less likely to overwhelm it than large meals. Sometimes feeding smaller meals every few hours can help the pancreas along.
 
Re: Squeaka Dose Question for tonight. 2/25/13

Madcapp said:
... His panels were all normal except for a very low red blood cell count and a bit of a high white blood cell count....
Click to expand...

I'm afraid those blood count findings suggest a need to do more follow-up testing.
 
Re: Squeaka Dose Question for tonight. 2/25/13

BJM said:
Madcapp said:
... His panels were all normal except for a very low red blood cell count and a bit of a high white blood cell count....
Click to expand...

I'm afraid those blood count findings suggest a need to do more follow-up testing.
Click to expand...

They are. We're getting the results on Wednesday.

This morning he is doing well. He has a healthy appetite and is energetic. I checked his levels at 7:50 before feeding him anything and he was at 143.

Should I check him right after feeding to help determine if he should get any lantus this morning too? If it's only 143 from last night I'm still not sure if he should get any.
I like the smaller meals idea. Especially with his blood counts being low. I stayed home from work again today to monitor him so I can take a few tests too.

He's eating right now, wet Fancy Food pate.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

He is barely above the upper end of normal (120) and you don't have a lot of data in your spreadsheet, so given something else is going on, an option is to test about 2 hours after feeding to see if he is spiking of if his numbers stay stable or reduce. That would suggest his pancreas might be working a bit.

Shooting under 150 can be done with data showing it is safe, but you haven"t got it. Your other option would be a token dose IF you can be home all day to test, feed, and monitor. I'm cautious; I wouldn't do it without data.

Better a day too high than a moment too low.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

That's kind of what I was leaning toward. I'll test him periodically throughout the day though and see where he's at. I'm probably going to give him little meals over the day too just because of his blood count.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

how is Squeaka feeling? You say he is eating well and energetic, so that is good. I haven't heard you say anything more about seizures in the last day or two.

I'm glad you and your vet are checking things out. I'm wondering if the last seizure might have been due to some residual damage from the first ones and maybe it is something that will heal. Of course that is just a hopeful guess, so I'm glad the vet is on top of it.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

He seems to be feeling good. He was rolling around on the pet bed earlier and wandering around the house. He tried to get into the plastic bin with the regular cat food so I gave him another spoon of fancy feast and after that he laid on the bed by my feet to nap, purring when I pet him. He's napping under the bed now.

He didn't have any seizures or tremors after we got home thankfully. We were hoping it was just residual too. Hopefully the bone marrow test comes back that at least he's reproducing his red blood cells. If that's okay I'm not sure where the vet wants to go next.Trying to stay positive since he seems to be feeling so good.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

Yeah I really hope he's on the mend.

His level just now was 138. Gave him a bit more food to eat.
 
Re: Squeaka lantus Dose Question for 2/26/13

If Squeaka's numbers continue in this same range, I don't think I would be in any hurry to resume insulin. So far he is holding his own without it. Keep testing, though, in case he starts to trend upward. If/when he does get high enough to resume insulin, I would definitely start at a lower dose. What does your vet say about insulin?

I'll be interested to see what the other test results show.
 
Re: Should Squeaka get any insulin this evening? 2/26/13

He's been eating small amounts all day. No insulin given since Sunday going into Monday at midnight. He's 151 now 30 mins after a meal. I wasn't able to get hi before hand. He got too upset. He calmed after eating so I could check him.
 
Re: Should Squeaka get any insulin this evening? 2/26/13

If we're voting, I vote "no shot". That's a nice low number, just above the line of "normal" and part of it is from the food he ate a half hour ago.

If you test in another hour, and the number is actually a little lower, that would be an awesome thing to see. It would suggest his pancreas is trying to do it's job.:-)

Carl
 
Re: Should Squeaka get any insulin this evening? 2/26/13

Great. :) I was thinking it was too low for me to be comfortable giving him a shot as well.
I'll try to test him again tonight. I caught him napping just now. He's been getting upset with me for pricking his ears so much. Going to try and wait until I can catch him napping again later, if he doesn't sleep somewhere I can't get to him.
I really hope his numbers stay low like this.
 
Re: Should Squeaka get any insulin this evening? 2/26/13

It may help to pick up some neosporin ointment (not cream) with pain relief.
Apply a dab on the ear a few minutes before testing, wipe off, then test.
It helps the blood bead up and reduces the annoyance of testing.
 
Re: Should Squeaka get any insulin this evening? 2/26/13

I put some on afterwards and he seemed to feel better. I'll try that trick beforehand. Thank you!

This morning was 141 before food and shot. I didn't give him a shot today either. Tried checking for ketones but I don't know if I get enough urine, but what I did get read negative. I've got to get another box I think and have it sitting in here and have him alone to get a better pool of it. I tried to get the stream but the lid was on and I couldn't see.

He's acting fantastic today. Walking around rubbing on us and things. Purring. He slept on the bed with me this morning. We had given him chicken liver for dinner last night in case of his anemia. Still waiting on the vet to call with results today.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

The numbers continue to look good:-)
Glad to read that he seems to be feeling good too. Looking forward to hearing what the vet has to say.

Carl
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

The vet just called. His bone marrow is producing more red blood cells. He doesn't have any blood parasites. That seems like all he sent out to test for since the in house panel was for his kidneys and liver and that was all good.
So he'll go back in about a week for another blood count. Unless he gets sick again. I didn't bother to mention anything about his insulin because frankly the vet seemed confused by a lot of things. The ER told me to give Squeaka 2u and they had written in the notes to give 2.5u. And when I told this vet that he said, "I don't think it makes a difference. Give 2u if you would rather."
I really wish I could find a good vet around here.

So now I'd like to take Squeaka off the dry food. He's been eating Fancy Feast the past few days because he eats it more readily than the dry food anyway, and the bits of liver we've given him too. Can anyone direct me as far as food quantities and food types with his insulin? I think he needs adjusted further either way as his numbers have stayed low without any insulin added these past two days.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped so far. I couldn't have made it through this without all the help and encouragement. I wish I had found you all sooner and had him on a better diet/dosing before this.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

We all said the same thing -
I wish I had found you all sooner
Click to expand...
The main thing is that you're here now and you're working to get Squeaka well - and doesn't he look good today :-D

This is a great chart for cat food composition:
http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Most of us stay under 10% carbs as a guide but some have more success (with bg) with 4-5% carbs.
Of course, Squeaka will have the last say as he'll decide which he likes!

Marje wrote recently in another condo:
It's best to determine what her ideal weight is and then feed the number of calories per day to get her there. A good formula for maintenance is 20 calories/lb per day so I'd use higher than that for her. Weigh her, feed her 25-30 calories per pound per day, weigh her again in a week....is she gaining? Keep checking her weight and adjusting the calories per day as needed.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Hmm... but would I still be doing twice a day feedings pre shot? And how much do you generally give? The whole can? Two cans?
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Roughly 2.5 - 3 oz per meal for an average sized cat; adjust slightly up or down as needed to modify weight.

I am putting out 4 cans of 13 oz of Friskies Turkey and Giblets twice a day for 14 cats. This works out to an average of 3.7 oz per meal per cat. Some of the cats are larger and eat more; some are smaller and eat less. I've got only 1 who could stand to lose some and she's a senior, so I'm not going to worry about it. You might feed less of a higher calorie food such as Wellness.

Also, I leave the food out between feedings. Most of mine are grazers, after the initial burst of "Oooh! New food!" eating.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

He's a little on the skinny side right now, he is a large cat overall so on average 3oz per meal, and two meals daily for a total of 6oz in a day if he were at optimal weight? I could let him graze except for the other cats in the house and not knowing who would get how much. I do want to convert the other cats as well and get rid of all the dry food entirely. I have a smaller cat that could use some weight loss. Plus if not watched the dog eats anything left so I can't leave anything out unless it's near me. I'm back to work tomorrow so this is going to be even harder. My mother is here during the day but she tends to nap a lot and forget food is out so she couldn't watch it like I could.

I was really thinking of Fancy Feast Classic, because it's economical as well and I really need that right now.

If I'm understanding this right with my own circumstances is this what I would do?
am test, give ~3oz of Fancy Feast Classic. 12 hours later, pm test then ~3oz of Fancy Feast Classic?
His insulin I'm still unsure of giving him 2u as prescribed. He hasn't had any since Monday morning at midnight. He's staying around 140. 4:30 today he was 147. I did give him a spoonful of wet food after.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Multiple smaller meals are better - evens him out during the day but I understand that can be difficult in a multi-cat house.
Some people separate the kitties during the day, ie. put in different rooms, to make sure the diabetic one has a food supply and you can leave wet food down with some water added so it doesn't dry out.

I use to give Honey about .5 Fancy Feast with shots and then the other .5*2 inbetween.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

He'd probably eat that better. I can do that, keep them separate while I'm not here to watch. Thank you.

I'm trying to understand this but I'm having a hard time. I'm looking at this chart and I guess to get him some more weight the seafood ones are best.


He and I are both really frustrated by my ineptitude at getting blood from his ear on the first try. I've resorted to getting out a lamp to heat his ears because if I try to hold anything to them now he starts growling and hissing at me. :( I'm really upset now because I have to take the tests. I don't know what to give him anymore and I need to know.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

For now, I'd skip the shots if you see a test before feeding that was under 200.
If his numbers creep up to that level, then that would indicate he does need some insulin.
My advice would be to start low and go slow on the dosage. I'm thinking a half-unit, or possibly 1 unit, but no higher than that to start with. His numbers don't indicate a higher dose is needed, in my opinion.

Carl
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

The only thing with fish and seafood is that you want to limit it to once or twice a week. There are several reasons for that particularly that cats become very addicted to it and then will eat nothing else, as well as the higher mercury levels in fish, plus with male cats too much fish can cause crystals in the urine. It is kind of like with humans...need to gain weight feed more, need to lose weight feed less.

When I adopted both of my diabetics as diabetics they both were severely underweight...Maxwell at 10.5lb and his ideal was 17lbs, Autumn at barely 6lbs with an ideal weight of 14lbs. Just getting them regulated caused them to gain back the much needed weight again without feeding them anything special, although I did let them free feed on the canned food. I rotate between 6 different flavors of Friskies pate and limit the fish ones to twice a week at most and usually only once a week.

The problem with the weight loss when unregulated is that insulin is what allows their bodies to properly use the food that is being eaten, so just getting the BGs under control will be the biggest help to getting him to put weight back on.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Thank you. I really appreciate the advice. I'll stick to that then and feed him a little more to see if he gains. I'm still foregoing the insulin for now.
I tried to get another reading just now and couldn't do it. I don't know if I'm just really bad at it or if I'm doing something wrong or if I made his ears too messed up doing it so much Saturday night... I've looked at lots of guides but...
I left him alone and just fed him anyway.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

if you can get him switched completely to low carb wet food, then that by itself might be enough to bring his numbers down closer to 100.

I'm with the others, though. I think I would be waiting for him to hit at least 200 before thinking about giving insulin, for now. If you ever do need to give insulin, I would start a lot lower than 2 units. If you start low and it turns out that the dose isn't enough, you can always increase the dose.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

4:30pm he was at 147.
He ate but not a full amount by 8:42pm when I tested again and got 129.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

He is so close to normal numbers he may very easily never need insulin just a low carb diet to become diet controlled...with those kind of numbers I wouldn't be comfortable giving any insulin either and certainly not 2u. If he does get closer to 200 I would start him no higher than .5u and then I would be testing like crazy to make sure he didn't drop too low.

All of us thought we were really bad at testing in the beginning until their ears learned to bleed or at least I did. Now I can roll over, test Autumn, roll back over and go right back to sleep, and about half the time have to check the meter the next morning to see if I really tested her or just dreamed I did...it gets much easier with practice.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

So why would you say you were really bad at testing when you got 2 this afternoon/evening :?:
Its a great start! And it gets easier \M/
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Friskies pates are less expensive than Fancy Feast
5.5 oz for $.55 vs 3 oz for $.55
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Thank you all for the support, the help and encouragement.
I do hope it gets easier.
I think I'm bad at it because most of the time I had to try 2-3 times to get any blood out. I tried free handing the lancet but I'm REALLY no good at that. I thought maybe if I keep the lid off I can at least aim the needle better and push the button. I was testing distance on a piece of paper =/ Haven't tried it on him yet.

This morning he got 135. No insulin today either. We went and got the fancy feast boxes. Might try the friskies instead if they're just as good. I wanted to get my other kitty off his dry food too. He needs to lose weight and I don't want him getting problems like poor Squeaka had. I was looking at the raw food diet at least for my other kitty. Does anyone do that for their diabetic kitty?

on the fancy feast classic, one of the ones that came in the box I got wasn't on the list. Anyone know if it's okay to use also? THe beef one? There was a turkey giblet one in there too I'm not sure if I saw on the list.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Checking the list:

Tender Beef Feast Classic has 5 carbs

Any that say Roasted, Sliced or Grilled or with Gravy, save for your HYPO kit. They are too high in carbs for anything else.

Can't find a Turkey and Giblet though. Sorry. There are several Turkey ones, most high carb.

You're doing great, hang in there!

Squeaka has some great numbers! Wouldn't surprise me if he could be diet controlled. :-D
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

I found the giblet one in misc. It's only 5 I think, so not bad.
I tried giving him the chicken tonight but he was barely interested. I put a piece of his old dry food down and he ate that. He might have to be transitioned off it. He was 158 this evening. And my new way of taking the cap off so I can aim the needle worked. He didn't even notice me, just kept on purring. :D
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

There you go - it does get better :-D
We all started the same here - thinking we couldn't do it and we must be so bad and our kitties would hate us but then it sort of becomes easy - practice makes perfect!

Not sure if you said you found a treat for him but if you have, you can sprinke that on top of the food to entice him.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

I'm trying to think of how best to get him to eat. Does anyone think going back to his twice a day feeding schedule would help in getting him to eat the canned food? Because when he hears the alarm sound that always alerted me it was feeding time he runs around waiting for food, but tonight he still wasn't interested in any of it until I put a little of the chicken liver in there. He ate that up and got some of the canned food with it too. He ate at an odd time this afternoon, his dry food, because he hadn't touched the gravy food I had put out in the morning.
If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. I'd like to get him on a better diet. I'm also not sure if 158 was all that great of a reading to get this evening compared to the others he'd been giving.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Hey there, just thought I would pop in and say hi. I hope you can transition him to wet soon as that might be all he needs to keep him off the juice. Try the transitioning tips but you could also try friskies Pâtés to see if he likes those better. But remember that dry stuff is really addictive, supposedly I heard they spray it with fat to make it more appealing..


Also check out these ear testing tips, there might be some nuggets in there that would help.. https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub
 
Re: Squeaka Update 2/27/2013

Thanks Wendy and Denise. I'll check those out. I gave him a chicken and liver classic today that he liked a lot better than the plain chicken one. I'm mixing slightly cooked liver in there and he just loves that.
This morning he checked at 131
Tonight, an hour after food he checked at 140. He needs to get more food in him though. I'm not really sure on the ratio of calories the liver is adding but he ate quite a bit of that this afternoon and this morning he ate a little over a quarter of a can of wet food.
 
Re: Squeaka Update 3/4/13

Sunday night Squeaka's readings have started going down. He was at 108 tonight. I'm a bit scared of this honestly, after the hypo. Anyone know why this is happening like this? He's still eating and although I'd like to see him eat more he's getting good amounts I think.
 
Maybe his pancreas is healing? Just a thought. I don't think you should be worried about him going too low as long as he's eating and is not getting any insulin. I would keep testing him just to make yourself feel more comfortable.

I don't think I would be feeding him dry food as I see in the remarks section of your ss though. A little bit of a higher carb wet food would get his numbers up quicker (and be better for him), if that's what you were worried about.
 
I did it to get carbs into him because he isn't all that interested in the wet food. I'm mixing chicken liver into it and only giving that mostly but I'm worried about the numbers going down and him not getting enough calories in a day.
I might try another type of wet food. We were wanting to get a grinder and try real food instead since he likes the liver. He just doesn't seem interested in the wet food. He's not even *that* interested in the dry food but he's so programmed to eat it that he at least has a few bites.
 
Okay. More important than BGs is a cat has to eat. You're doing good taking care of your kitty.
 
just wanted to pop in say your doing such a great job, squeaka must be a special kitty to have a mama that takes such good care of him
keep up the good work and follow the advise of the experts here.
Praying the food change makes a huge difference.
your doing great mom. inbetween the worry dont forget to just relax and love him in the moment
 
97 this evening after finally eating a full can of fancy feast without anything added. He's being particular again right now and not eating what I sat down for him.
I'm really scared that this number just keeps on going down. Is it because he isn't getting enough calories in a day because he isn't eating? Any help is appreciated.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 97. He hasn't had a shot of insulin for 9 days? Normal BG for a cat is 40-120, so 97 is well within the range of safe.

About the eating, however. You said that the 97 came after eating a can of FF. How long after?

How many ounces of canned food is he eating per day?

Carl
 
It was about an hour to an hour and a half after.
He was 91 this morning, 3 hours after eating.

He ate yesterday around 1 and a half cans which was a lot compared to what he was eating. So almost 4 ounzes I guess?
I was having to mix chicken liver in to get him to eat, and he was getting a few bites of his dry food. Yesterday though he ate only the FF wet food for once.
 
I think the lowering numbers mean Squeaka's pancreas is getting stronger. :smile: When Lucy first went off insulin her numbers sometimes were close to 100, and now she is usually in the 50s. When I have tested my non diabetic cats they have been in the 60s or 70s.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top