Recommended max carb level for dry food

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Steph

Member Since 2013
What should the max carb level be for cats' dry food? It is not posted on bag labels, so I need to call.

I feed Wysong: very high protein
Evo Cat & Kitten Chicken/Turkey: very high protein

These two are ok, I know.

BUT, I'm also feeding
Addiction venison grain free
GO grain free chicken and turkey

Thanks, nutrition buffs.
 
It is not recommended to feed dry food to cats, especially diabetic cats. For all the reasons why dry food is just not a good food choice, check out Dr. Lisa's site - www.catinfo.org.

This is why you aren't getting a lot of response to your question. We don't recommend feeding dry food and we don't have any analysis on if any are low carb, as most are not.

If you are determined to feed dry food and not transition your cats to canned or raw food diet, then you need to get the manufacturers to give you the "as fed" information, not the guaranteed analysis. At the very least, you need "as fed" values for protein, fat, and carbohydrate. It would also be helpful to have "as fed" values for phosphorus, fiber, water, ash, and calcium, along with calorie information. You cannot use any number which is labeled "maximum" or "minimum", because it is by definition not an accurate value.

Then you can put that information into a carb calculator to get the percentages.
 
Doesn't matter if it's wet food or dry food, the recommended max carb percent is <10%.

You can get a rough idea of the carb % in a dry food by adding up the guaranteed analysis percentages. It's not perfect, but gives you an idea of the carb content. Yes, Hillary is correct that you really want the "as fed" values from the manufacturer but for a quick idea of the carb content, you can add up the guaranteed analysis percentages and subtract from 100.

For example, the Addiction Venison Grain Free is 30% protein, 15% fat, 11% ash (wow that's really high!), 3.5% fiber, 10% moisture for a total of 69.5. subtract from 100 and that gives you 30.5% carb content. Not low carb at all. This is what we would consider very high carb content.

Go Grain Free Chicken Turkey and Duck is 48% protein, 18% fat, 9% ash (wow that's really high too!), 1.5% fiber, 10% moisture for a total of 86.5. subtract from 100 and that gives you 13.5% carb content. This is what we would consider medium carb content. Better than the Addiction Venison Grain Free by far.

Evo Turkey and Chicken Cat and Kitten dry food is 50% protein, 22% fat, ash content not listed, 2.5% fiber, 10% moisture for a total of 84.5. subtract from 100 and that gives you 15.5% carb content. This is what we would consider medium carb content.

You didn't say which of the Epigen foods you are feeding, but the Epigen Starch Free may be the one. That is 60% protein, 15% fat, ash content not listed, 4% fiber, 10% moisture for a total of 89. Subtract from 100 and that gives you 11% carb content. This is what we would consider medium carb content, just barely above the <10% carb limit we like to see. Don't see how Epigen can claim this food is starch free, since it contains potato protein.
 
First of all, you don't get the percent of calories from carbohydrates from the percent of weight by itself.
Second, the calories per gram are:
3.5 calories per gram from protein
8.5 calories per gram from fat
3.5 calories per gram from carbohydrate
Try this online calculator to get an estimate using the label; yes, it will be imprecise.
 
He gets wet food twice a day, too. I am aware of the cons of dry food. I am trying to mix it up.

He gets Merrick Beef Pate, Merrick Duck Pate, etc...good stuff.

Thanks for this. You took your time to help us. This is highly complex. His numbers on ProZinc are
still averaging 250 - 280 at 3.5 units a.m./p.m. He's always in the low 300, high 200 range pre-shot.
Nadir isn't much better.
 
Well, duh. Maybe it is the dry food that is keeping these numbers high: Note: When he was only on high-quality wet food (high protein), his cholesterol was getting high. That is another reason I added back the dry.

He gets wet food twice a day, too. I am aware of the cons of dry food. I am trying to mix it up.

He gets Merrick Beef Pate, Merrick Duck Pate, etc...good stuff.

Thanks for this. You took your time to help us. This is highly complex. His numbers on ProZinc are
still averaging 250 - 280 at 3.5 units a.m./p.m. He's always in the low 300, high 200 range pre-shot.
Nadir isn't much better.
 
That is a superb tool, NJM. Thank you!

First of all, you don't get the percent of calories from carbohydrates from the percent of weight by itself.
Second, the calories per gram are:
3.5 calories per gram from protein
8.5 calories per gram from fat
3.5 calories per gram from carbohydrate
Try this online calculator to get an estimate using the label; yes, it will be imprecise.
 
He gets wet food twice a day, too. I am aware of the cons of dry food. I am trying to mix it up.

He gets Merrick Beef Pate, Merrick Duck Pate, etc...good stuff.

Thanks for this. You took your time to help us. This is highly complex. His numbers on ProZinc are
still averaging 250 - 280 at 3.5 units a.m./p.m. He's always in the low 300, high 200 range pre-shot.
Nadir isn't much better.
Our lifestyle (jobs, travel, and number of cats , 6) dictates that we feed dry food, but we feed Evo and the kitties love it. However, Goof, our diabetic cat, is still on the Hills DM. The vet started him on it and I can't bring myself to throw away a $53 bag of food. Of course I had already ordered the new bag when I discovered the Evo and didn't feel right reneging on the order. I plan to change him over to the Evo as soon as I can. Goof's BG runs in the low 100's with 2 units of ProZinc once a day.
 
If you add 20-25% plain lean meat/poultry to the food, it ups the protein, reduces the fat and carbohydrate calorie percents accordingly.
 
This morning, he is at 123 pre-shot. I cannot remember when! This is on 3.5 units ProZinc. I picked up the dry food
last night and only gave him Wysong dry and pate wet this a.m. Now I am concerned that he will hypo. This is such
a rollercoaster. ?
 
Hi Stephanie,

This morning, he is at 123 pre-shot. I cannot remember when! This is on 3.5 units ProZinc. I picked up the dry food
last night and only gave him Wysong dry and pate wet this a.m. Now I am concerned that he will hypo.

Can you clarify:
Did you give Stubbie the insulin?
And did you give the full dose?
If so, I'd advise that you watch him very closely over the next few hours.
Are you at home and able to test him?

Eliz
 
I did. He is at 69 now, so I just gave him some dry food with carbs. We are only at three hours.

I am getting very frustrated, concerned, frightened about how to manage this with four other cats. No excuses, but
obviously, picking up the food overnight set the stage for this low number after high numbers for so long.

Must go out for one hour...

Thanks.


Hi Stephanie,



Can you clarify:
Did you give Stubbie the insulin?
And did you give the full dose?
If so, I'd advise that you watch him very closely over the next few hours.
Are you at home and able to test him?

Eliz
 
I did. He is at 69 now, so I just gave him some dry food with carbs. We are only at three hours.

I am getting very frustrated, concerned, frightened about how to manage this with four other cats. No excuses, but
obviously, picking up the food overnight set the stage for this low number after high numbers for so long.

Must go out for one hour...

Thanks.
Don't let it get you down! I have 6 cats and 2 dogs. I work full time and my hubby is a long haul trucker, so I can understand how you could feel overwhelmed. We free fed the cats all of their lives, avg. 11 years, but we made the switch to am and pm feeding only. It was hard at first, lots of meowing! Lol But, Goof was considered "regulated" about 2 weeks ago, he was diagnosed on Dec 4, 2014. With 2 units of ProZinc, am only, he's back to his old goofy, playful self.

I will say that our vet is awesome, he helped me thru several meltdowns, and helped me to really understand what was happening and how to deal with it. I'd advise that you make a consult appointment with your vet, make a list of questions and take notes on the answers given.

By doing that, I actually feel normal again and that I have my life back. And most importantly, I feel like I'm doing the right things for my cat, that he's happy and as healthy as he can be considering the diabetes.
 
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The dry food is certainly influencing the BG's. There was a cat I took care of several years ago, who was very carb sensitive and what I did was take the canned food and label it with the carb % on the lid. This way I could easily decide how many carbs to feed based on the BG's. I also managed his low BG's by giving him slightly higher carb food and it worked well for him. When his bean returned from vacation, I showed her what I did and how it worked and she followed that plan with positive results in getting him OTJ.

The percentages ranged from 0 - 8% and sometimes I'd mix a 2 and 5% food together, etc.

Just another way to look at the situation and try. And when he gets low numbers instead of feeding dry, go with a higher carb canned food - even using the gravy from the FF gravy lovers on top of a low carb food will manage the drops and BG's nicely.

If you are able to remove the dry food completely and feed all your cats the same low carb diet, you will be much better off in the long run.
 
Our lifestyle (jobs, travel, and number of cats , 6) dictates that we feed dry food, but we feed Evo and the kitties love it. However, Goof, our diabetic cat, is still on the Hills DM. The vet started him on it and I can't bring myself to throw away a $53 bag of food. Of course I had already ordered the new bag when I discovered the Evo and didn't feel right reneging on the order. I plan to change him over to the Evo as soon as I can. Goof's BG runs in the low 100's with 2 units of ProZinc once a day.


1) You can return the Hills DM unused portion; they have a money back guarantee. Say he won't eat it. Or, mix it in with the Evo dry. Another low carb dry is Young Again 0 Carb, internet only, about 5% calories from carbohydrates as we calculate it.


2) At that dose of ProZinc, it should be 1 unit twice a day. No insulin lasts 24 hours in the cat. Also, the dose is adjusted based on the nadir, the lowest glucose post-shot, which is generally around +5 to +7 hours after giving it. It can vary.




 
Ok: 3.5 last night, and I picked up his food. Shot the same this morning. In the 50s today and 69 now. From 300s to the 50s.

What should I do? I am thoroughly confused. Should I shoot at all tonight? I just must get this regulated. Help.
 
I haven't been able to find the spreadsheet on here, but I'd like to do one. I've done pretty careful charting since we started tho. We've done 2 curves on Goof and he actually runs the opposite of most cats. He's been at this dosing, as per our vet, for almost 3 weeks and his numbers run in the low to mid 100's . I just visited with the vet today, after seeing all of the charting he recommended no changes. Goof has gained back some of the lost weight, is playful and has lots of enegy. He very rarely vomits, if he does its because he snarfs his food and even then, 'its a small amount.
 
Ok: 3.5 last night, and I picked up his food. Shot the same this morning. In the 50s today and 69 now. From 300s to the 50s.

What should I do? I am thoroughly confused. Should I shoot at all tonight? I just must get this regulated. Help.
69 now? I wouldn't shoot. Better that the numbers be higher rather than too low. When we started, Goofs first test at the vet, his BG was 658, we gave 1/2 unit twice day for about a week, then increased by 1/2 units over the next weeks until we hit 3 units. We didn't stay at 3 for long before we started going down as his bgs started to drop. It took about 3 months to get him regulated
 
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I will not. No. Will go to bed and see what the morning brings. (Back in the 300s?) Argh. I tested him 6 times today,
and his little ear shows it. :(
 
Can we get you started using our grid to record your glucose tests? It will help us give you better feedback. Instructions are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
I am actually using it, but it's a mess because of the date range that I entered. He is 416 this morning because I didn't shoot him last night.
I had a good cry. I will upload the sheet and you can at least get an idea of what I'm dealing with. I will do this religiously because I am
so worried that he is getting damaged. I honestly never though I'd be so bad at this--I'm a national health journalist. Go figure. You are all
such experts and I am grateful for the help! Look for that sheet soon.
 
He is 416 this morning because I didn't shoot him last night.
I had a good cry.
Oh, (((Stephanie)))
Here's a big :bighug:reassuring hug:bighug: for you.....

You had to skip the dose in the circumstances. You had no choice.
OK, his numbers were higher this morning. But this is just one day out of his life, and yours.

Stubbie's ears will recover from the testing, and they will bleed more easily over time (will grow more blood vessels).
My Bertie has clocked up over 17,ooo tests and still has both ears intact! ;)

Please be kind to yourself.
Remind yourself that you are doing the very best you can; and you are doing a good job.

BTW, there are no "experts" here; only people who've been walking the path a little bit longer and who want to be able to share what they've learned.

Best wishes,

Eliz
 
Note: When he was only on high-quality wet food (high protein), his cholesterol was getting high.

High like what number, based on what range? High cholesterol in a cat is generally not the same concern it is in a human. (Something I also find super annoying is that the ranges are based on a typical "healthy" adult cat - and your typical adult cat is on crappy high-carb dry food.)
 
(Something I also find super annoying is that the ranges are based on a typical "healthy" adult cat - and your typical adult cat is on crappy high-carb dry food.)
That is so true. When I first brought Saoirse to a vet last year when I knew something was wrong with her: drinking an awful lot; ravenously hungry; coat spiky, greasy, and full of dander; rusted fur. Saoirse's tummy had been getting progressively balder over several years but our then vets attributed that to stress- or boredom-related overgrooming. ) I was told by the vet that she was "an old lady" and that her condition was "normal for a cat her age". Like many people, I did put think her lethargy might be age-related but not the but not the other symptoms. The vet actually refused my request to run any diagnostic tests!

I look at my girl now. Even though she's still got problems with her digestive system, she now has a dander-free, black, soft coat, the fur has regrown completely on her tummy (started as soon as I switched her to healthy food) and she looks years younger. I think to myself very often about how many cats may be going through veterinary practices all over the world where the vets don't know what a fairly healthy, mature cat should look like (within reason). I wonder how much unnecessary pain, loss and grief goes with it, and it saddens me deeply. :( I'm so glad that I found FDMB and catinfo.org so that I could help my girl, and I'm beyond grateful for everything shared so generously on both sites.
 
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