Judy and Hershey
Member
I just tested Hershey at +12 right before his PM shot. He came back at 167. I read that anything this low we are not to give insulin. Help?
Reading of 162 before PM Shot - what to do?
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Judy and Hershey
Member
PS - He has never had a PM BEFORE insulin reading this low. Only his Nadir.
Luann and Nicky
Member
Hi Judy,
I will chime in here. My suggestion would be to wait about 20 minutes without feeding and test again. If he goes over 200 you can probably dose but at a lower dose than normal. If he does not go over 200 you may not want to dose. I will let the experts chime in here, to help yu with the dose. This happened to me last night my cat Nicky was under 200. I stalled 20 minutes and tested twice. The highest he got was 136 so I chose not to dose him. Again, lets see what Sue or Robin has to say.
-Luann
I will chime in here. My suggestion would be to wait about 20 minutes without feeding and test again. If he goes over 200 you can probably dose but at a lower dose than normal. If he does not go over 200 you may not want to dose. I will let the experts chime in here, to help yu with the dose. This happened to me last night my cat Nicky was under 200. I stalled 20 minutes and tested twice. The highest he got was 136 so I chose not to dose him. Again, lets see what Sue or Robin has to say.
-Luann
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Hi, Judy. This can be frustrating, I know - it's happened to me many times with my cat. (Take a peek at her SS.) Have had to test up to 4 times in 15-20 minute intervals - withholding food - until she's risen enough. (Once went off schedule by about 1.5 hrs. because of it.) Usually they rise enough. Sometimes they don't. Let's see what happens ...
Judy and Hershey
Member
I didn't know I should retest, I already fed him, he was hungry. Oh no. I will see if anyone else replies, but basically he dropped 100 from AM test. Scared to give insulin.... I am excited, but not sure if this is a fluke. He has slowly been dropping alittle each day, and I contemplated dropping his dose to .75 unit this AM, but he was a little high and never dropped that low before. He had his usual FF canned for breakfast, treats, he had 1/4 cup friskies turkey & giblets pate, he ate some dry evo (not sure how much, my mother saw), then he ate some more friskies (1/4 cup at 3:00). I tested him at 6:00 pm today, +12 since his AM shot of 1.0 u. I have not given him ANY insulin tonight yet. He is due anytime if I were to administer it.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Robin, I already fed him. I did not think of this....
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Oh, crap. Well then ... you're kinda screwed.
(I'm just kidding you, dear. It's okay, Judy - we all make some little mistakes in the beginning!)
Can you watch him/monitor BG's tonight?
Because you were already at 162 (BEFORE you fed, right?); one alternative might be to give him a half-dose (0.5U) - BUT you would need to monitor if you elected to do that.
If you can't test his BGs tonight, I'd rather you just skipped it altogether, as Hershey's pre-shot #s are yellows, not pinks or reds. When you skip, you can expect that your next pre-shot # will be higher; so don't let that freak you out.
(I'm just kidding you, dear. It's okay, Judy - we all make some little mistakes in the beginning!) Can you watch him/monitor BG's tonight?
Because you were already at 162 (BEFORE you fed, right?); one alternative might be to give him a half-dose (0.5U) - BUT you would need to monitor if you elected to do that.
If you can't test his BGs tonight, I'd rather you just skipped it altogether, as Hershey's pre-shot #s are yellows, not pinks or reds. When you skip, you can expect that your next pre-shot # will be higher; so don't let that freak you out.
Luann and Nicky
Member
And if you do dose him and see that he is dropping really low (close to 50) just give him some gravy or higher carb food. This will bring his glucose up to safer levels. Don't worry, this happens sometimes. I had to do this with my cat Nicky a couple of times. You can check my spreadsheet. When the dose got close to 50 or below, I gave him some gravy or additional food and his glucose raised pretty quickly.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Robin, sorry yes I see your posts now, I was posting and therefore I think we crossed our postings, any way, I know for next time, and I will just not give anything to him. I keep a couple of that special food on hand in case of a low BS reading, as well we have corn syrup if needed. He is happier than ever. His pees are smaller and he is attacking my other cat, so I know he's back to his "norm"! I know I will probably be upset in the morning about the reading, but I just don't want to risk it. I'm so hopeful this will be the beginning of perhaps remission down the road.....I see you shoot even at 167 though, perhaps .50 or .25?
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Good! Am glad you decided to skip, given the time that had elapsed since your pre-shot. (You'll get more sleep tonight that way!
)Yes, I shoot much lower than the usual threshold, but Bat-Bat is on an "as needed" tiny dose of insulin (0.15U, sometimes even less) and I've been doing the sugar dance with her for quite a while now.
I think Hershey is doing really well; one skipped dose is no big deal; he's progressing nicely, and won't be surprised if you start seeing some nice green nadirs before much longer.
And must tell you: You're doing a wonderful job with the pre-shot testing & keeping your SS updated!
So you deserve some >>>
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Sorry about the delays in my responses, Judy - my ISP here is being a real pain in the butt! (I am surrounded by HUGE granite boulders here in northern AZ, called the "Granite Dells" - Google it sometime, they're really amazing!) So my local topography can make maintaining internet connections a real challenge.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Sounds like a beautiful place, all we are surrounded by in Tennessee is trees....Sorry about the delays in my responses, Judy - my ISP here is being a real pain in the butt! (I am surrounded by HUGE granite boulders here in northern AZ, called the "Granite Dells" - Google it sometime, they're really amazing!) So my local topography can make maintaining internet connections a real challenge.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Good Morning Robin, if you are up, Hershey's read was 228 this AM. After no insulin last night. I have posted a new thread as well. He has to have his shot before I go to work this morning if he is going to get it I was thinking maybe .25 units. Yesterday he dropped 100 from AM to PM reads. I know its early but if you are up any advice appreciated. Thanks!
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
So sorry I missed you, Judy! (That 3 hr. time difference between us cuts both ways.
) I see from your SS that you shot 0.5U,which I think should be fine for Hershey today ... Will go read your new thread now, too.
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
And Whiskey, Judy, LOL! I love TN and don't forget the beautiful Smoky Mountains.!
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Bobbie, can you believe I have lived here 2 years and have yet to get to the Smokies!
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hershey's PM read was 221. I have not dosed him yet, but I think I will stick with .50 any thoughts?
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
I would, as he didn't rise into the pinks this morning after you reduced it. Maybe you want to see how he does on this for a few cycles. I mean, the worst thing than can happen is that you might have to up the dose a bit later on ... but if that comes to pass, you'd still only want to do any increase in a smaller increment, such as 0.25U. But I'd stick with the 0.5 tonight (can get good sleep, too.
)
)
Judy and Hershey
Member
Thanks Robin, will give now. I am so thankful people monitor this page! Bless you. I will give .50 now and try a few cycles, ie. maybe 3 days?
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Yep, I'd give that a go for a bit, and see what happens. (Ha, I was just lucky my ISP held the connection at just the right moment!
) It's a funny thing with ProZinc - every cat's different in the way the body reacts. Some cats take about 5 to 6 12-hr. cycles to settle into a dose (mine usually did); others can be bouncing all over the place (boy, can that be frustrating) - anyway, you'll see his own patterns emerge on the SS over time. Gathering that data is the key to figuring it all out!
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
Oh, you must take a nice hike in the Smokey Mts. I think TN is just beautiful!
Judy and Hershey
Member
Can anyone tell me what will be a "normal" blood sugar range?
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
Judy, I think it is 60-120, I am sure a pair of experienced eyes are going to post soon.
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
Wow! Cindi, that is awesome! My husband hiked it years ago before we were married. It took him 6 months too. Such a cool thing to do with your daughter. Sorry, Judy and Hershey that we are high-jacking your thread.
Judy and Hershey
Member
No worries, love the way everyone connects on this Site. I'm just looking forward to remission and praying it will happen soon. I appreciate everyone's comments and all the fun people have on this page! Have a great night ladies!
Merlin
Very Active Member
Yes you are correct - normal numbers are 120-50. To get regulated, it is 220 and below. Here is a link that can be found on BJ's signature. It explains the numbers. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oI_34_EgqeKdpyttFW0oLoG1mbw16IkATAWHhoQD2JU/pub
Judy and Hershey
Member
Thanks Cindi. I see we have a ways to go
Judy and Hershey
Member
Thanks Robin, so far so good, I will do a nadir mid morning and let you know.
Rachel
Very Active Member
Judy, Hershey's numbers are lovely! He's hanging out right at the renal threshold (220). That's a great place to be because the longer he hangs up out under that number, the more healing time his pancreas have. I'm very interested to see what your nadir is today! That will help us really see what's happening with the insulin.
Judy and Hershey
Member
It's because of all the wonderful faithful people on this site. Sad though I can't even discuss with my vet. He was adamant that the only way to bring Hershey's numbers down was with Purina DMwet (which Hershey would not eat) and lots of insulinThat's great! I was just about to ask you if you planned on getting a nadir test in ... Ya beat me to the punch!(See how much you've learned already?)
I have learned a lot and I visit this site several time a day. The advice and the stories of the newbies helps me understand that we aren't the only ones
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Rachel, I did not know that this is a way of the pancreas healing. I'm interested too in the nadir, but I'm sure my boy won't be....We have a new hold for him, my daughter holds him like a baby and then we poke the ear. I am waiting for a new lancet pen in the mail and hope that that will make things easier. I just hate seeing his little ears all redJudy, Hershey's numbers are lovely! He's hanging out right at the renal threshold (220). That's a great place to be because the longer he hangs up out under that number, the more healing time his pancreas have. I'm very interested to see what your nadir is today! That will help us really see what's happening with the insulin.
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
Hi Judy, I use the Neosporin ointment with pain relief on Bubba's ears after every poke, soothes and takes care of the redness. Just a tiny amount is all you need.Hi Rachel, I did not know that this is a way of the pancreas healing. I'm interested too in the nadir, but I'm sure my boy won't be....We have a new hold for him, my daughter holds him like a baby and then we poke the ear. I am waiting for a new lancet pen in the mail and hope that that will make things easier. I just hate seeing his little ears all red
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Yeah, it's really too bad that some vets aren't open-minded enough to realize that the people involved with FDMB have collected enough data to have developed "best practices" in treating feline diabetes that more vets should actually be putting into practice themselves!It's because of all the wonderful faithful people on this site. Sad though I can't even discuss with my vet. He was adamant that the only way to bring Hershey's numbers down was with Purina DMwet (which Hershey would not eat) and lots of insulin
As for the Purina DM canned, while it's at 3% carbs (original formula, not the other DM Savory Selects), I've heard others report, too, that their cats wouldn't eat it. (Bat-Bat will; she'll eat anything!
) So it's not a bad choice per se (if a cat will eat it), but it's just ridiculously expensive! I really wish my cat wasn't so darned carb-sensitive, because that makes it harder to find canned choices @ 3% carbs or less that aren't fish-based. (She LOVES fishy stuff, but I've learned it's not wise to feed fishy foods too often, thanks to mercury & other toxins. <sigh> )
Rachel
Very Active Member
Hey Judy! Yep, when under 220, a cat's pancreas is getting some healing time in. As the pancreas heal, they can start to kick in more...heading towards remission! So focus on the good stuff...Hershey is right there at preshot times, which means he probably spends a pretty good amount of time during the day healing.
I know it's tough with the tests. You give plenty of treats and love after right? Where are you testing? Have you managed to hit the sweet spot? Usually they get used to that pretty fast because there are not many nerve endings there so it's just a bit annoying...not painful.
You're doing great at this! Even though it's hard for you, you're still willing to do what you need to do.
I know it's tough with the tests. You give plenty of treats and love after right? Where are you testing? Have you managed to hit the sweet spot? Usually they get used to that pretty fast because there are not many nerve endings there so it's just a bit annoying...not painful.
You're doing great at this! Even though it's hard for you, you're still willing to do what you need to do.
Bobbie And Bubba
Very Active Member
Hey Robin, I just picked up some Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken. I called the company yesterday and the carb count on that flavor for a 5.5 oz can is 0.6%. Calories is 103. They human grade chicken breast. I am hoping Bubba likes it; he'll be getting it for dinner. It's a bit pricey, $2.29 /can but on PetFlow.com a case of 24 is $42.96 making each can &1.79. He gets Wellness also, but the two no grain flavors he likes the most both have fish in them along with either the chicken or the turkey. I rotate those with FF Chucky Chicken and FF Kitten Turkey Feasst (uder 1% gram of carb) So hopefully I can add the Weruva to the rotation. Next, I'll start cooking for him.Yeah, it's really too bad that some vets aren't open-minded enough to realize that the people involved with FDMB have collected enough data to have developed "best practices" in treating feline diabetes that more vets should actually be putting into practice themselves!
As for the Purina DM canned, while it's at 3% carbs (original formula, not the other DM Savory Selects), I've heard others report, too, that their cats wouldn't eat it. (Bat-Bat will; she'll eat anything!
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Robin, so how often can they have fish fancy feast? I usually buy a mix of all the suggested low carb ff pate, but I usually give at least 3x a week????Yeah, it's really too bad that some vets aren't open-minded enough to realize that the people involved with FDMB have collected enough data to have developed "best practices" in treating feline diabetes that more vets should actually be putting into practice themselves!
As for the Purina DM canned, while it's at 3% carbs (original formula, not the other DM Savory Selects), I've heard others report, too, that their cats wouldn't eat it. (Bat-Bat will; she'll eat anything!
Judy and Hershey
Member
Hi Rachel, Yes he gets sooo much love and lots of pure bits and cat grass (that is his cat drug of choice) (lol) I'm not sure if we hitting or missing the sweet spot. He jerks his head. I hold him in a baby position and my older daughter (20) pricks and gets the blood. I think we hurt him the first few times and now he hates the whole procedure.... Ordered a special lancing device that is suppose to be the most painless and will see if we have better luck with that it is the Accu--check Multiclik. Haven't received it yet. It's almost time for nadir!Hey Judy! Yep, when under 220, a cat's pancreas is getting some healing time in. As the pancreas heal, they can start to kick in more...heading towards remission! So focus on the good stuff...Hershey is right there at preshot times, which means he probably spends a pretty good amount of time during the day healing.
I know it's tough with the tests. You give plenty of treats and love after right? Where are you testing? Have you managed to hit the sweet spot? Usually they get used to that pretty fast because there are not many nerve endings there so it's just a bit annoying...not painful.
You're doing great at this! Even though it's hard for you, you're still willing to do what you need to do.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Nadir 243 at +6, no food 2 hours prior. Are you suppose withhold food during the nadir? Confused. Thought it might be a little lower. Not sure what to expect.Hey Judy! Yep, when under 220, a cat's pancreas is getting some healing time in. As the pancreas heal, they can start to kick in more...heading towards remission! So focus on the good stuff...Hershey is right there at preshot times, which means he probably spends a pretty good amount of time during the day healing.
I know it's tough with the tests. You give plenty of treats and love after right? Where are you testing? Have you managed to hit the sweet spot? Usually they get used to that pretty fast because there are not many nerve endings there so it's just a bit annoying...not painful.
You're doing great at this! Even though it's hard for you, you're still willing to do what you need to do.
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
I think that here @ FDMB, it's generally recommended that you limit the canned fish-type foods to once a week; primarily because of the mercury content. Dr. Lisa Pierson's site has additional info about this; another problem is that cats can become "fish-food addicts," and can start refusing to eat anything else. (I actually had a problem with Bat-Bat that way, years ago; she was totally hooked for a while on salmon-formula everything!)
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
It might have been lower a little earlier or might be a little lower later. The nadir can vary in that 5-7 range (or even earlier or later than that). You might get your nadir test in before you feed him. If he protests, then a little snack while he is being poked. Or it could be that this cycle will be a little higher and flatter.
Remember that you are just gathering data, Judy. It's the overall picture and pattern that help you figure this out. One number is just one number.
One thing you might do for his ear is to put a very small smear of Neosporin on his ear before poking. Some people think that makes the ear a little numb.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Wow who knew, I guess I will stick to the chicken, turkey and limit the fish....continued learning!!
Robin&BB
Very Active Member
Well, if you're trying to find an on-insulin nadir, it can make it a little more difficult to determine where the lowest BG is when you're spreading the meals out in several feedings throughout the 12-hr. cycle.
Although I fed Bat-Bat two big meals @ AMPS/PMPS until she was very well-regulated & down to a micro-dose of ProZinc "as needed," the 2 meals/day method is not always advisable/practical for those starting insulin treatment for a variety of reasons, including:
- Additional health problems (like pancreatitis, chronic kidney disease, etc.)
- Schedule that prevents close BG monitoring (Ex: someone who works outside the home)
I suppose that if you're spreading your cat's daily total rations out into multiple meals for most of the week, you could try - say, over a weekend if you're around all the time, feeding a larger meal @ AMPS, then withhold food & try to find that nadir by testing @ +4, +5 & +6 so that you can "watch the drop."
Every cat is different as to when they hit nadir; mine, for example, usually nadirs early (around +3.5), but other cats may not hit it until hours later.
Judy and Hershey
Member
Thanks Sue, good to hear back from you! Hershey was tested at 1:00 and hadn't had anything to eat since 11, so he didn't care if I poked him or not I gave him treats and food after, I must say this test was the easiest one yet. I started putting the Neosporin on when I rub his ear gently to warm it up. He very awake and active today, happy camper. Thanks again for all your amazing advice! I will just have to be patient and remember he started at 488 on May 16 the day he was dx. 3 months later he has come down 200 points and his insulin is only at .50.
Judy and Hershey
Member
In all fairness with his nadir, I had to admit Hershey is a grazer. He doesn't gorge at any meal, so he usually gets a large tablespoon every 3-4 hours. By the end of the day probably eats 1 small can and a bit, plus his treats. He does munch a little on his EVO, but is much more interested in our other cat's dry food, that I have even restricted her since his dx. She is asthmatic and is on a prednisone, so I worry she may develop diabetes down the road. All was good at her last checkup with her blood sugar. So I only up about 1/2 cup out a day of that. Purina has come out with a higher protein formula True Nature by Proplan 45% protein, formulated without corn or wheat. It is controlled though.
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