NEWLY DIAGNOSED

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dana moore

dana moore

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Ok everyone I finally got my own thread!!! Riley was at 280 during midpoint today. Dr. said to keep giving him 2.5 prozinc because 3 was making him lethargic. I'm still scared of going home and taking his bg but I know it will get easier. Dr also told me to pick his food up so he can't snack during day? So sad. I just want his numbers down. I will keep trying to give him soft food only but he keeps looking for dogs food and my other cats food. Can someone help me out with best food canned please? I was getting too low bg numbers because I was not getting enough blood! Huge mistake I will never make again!
 
There you are! First, this is a process. Someone called it a marathon, not a sprint. You need to be patient. (We even have pictures of patience pants somewhere on the site - you aren't the first person who has needed a pair). He did drop today so the insulin is working; we'd just like to see a lower range. Can you or hubby get a number around +8? Would be interesting to see how fast he rises.

I think you are on the right track with the food. Wet low carb can make a huge difference (100 points overnight with Oliver when we switched from high carb to lower wet). If the dog food or some of the other cat's food is in the 15-30% carb range, it's like a human diabetic eating donuts and then taking more insulin to counteract it. Once you get him on all low carb, his numbers should go down.

So tell us what everyone is eating and what he specifically will eat. Most people here with multiple cats switch everyone to wet low carb because it is easier. And most people feed mini meals, dividing what he'd normally eat into 4-6 meals daily. He is literally starving because his body isn't converting the food efficiently. Your vet isn't there when you fill up the bowls; you can choose not to share that info?
 
It was 346 at 8 hrs after prozinc. I'm giving him a mix of WD canned and dry. I just went and got some new canned foods at petsmart
 
Have we shared this website by a vet? www.catinfo.org. She has a food chart that lists the carbs of many foods. We suggest staying under the 8% range. Although there are fish varieties that are super low carb, it's best to limit them to once/twice a week because of the mercury. Lots of people feed Friskies or Fancy Feast - the pates are the low carb varieties. One thing to make them more appealing is to add a little warm water and make a gravy.
 
I have 5 cats, and they all love soft food but for some reason Riley is being a brat. I did get some Blue and Friskies Pate on my lunch break today and some freezedried chicken treats. I read WD was very high and I was wondering why would my vet recommend that? UGH. I love my vet don't get me wrong but I have several questions.
 
Vets are like GPs. They not only have to deal with every medical issue but with a number of different species. I have read that most vet schools offer one workshop on Feline Diabetes and the diet section is done by Purina. Unless you really research the disease and the importance of meat in a feline diet like Dr. Pederson did, you just don't see that part of the picture. Your average vet is going to think pet food manufacturers know what they are talking about, when they only care about the bottom line and cereal is a lot cheaper than meat.
 
If you are able to get Riley on wet low carb only, it might be wise to lower the dose until you see how his numbers are affected. The morning after we made the switch, we had to halve Oliver's usual dose or he would have hypoed.
 
I'm going to try but Riley is really picky at this point. Write what I'm trying right now is to do a little of both more wet food than dry food and then gradually moving into wet food.
 
That website is awesome its going to take me a long time to read through it but I'm going to sit down tonight before I go to bed and try to read more. Thank you so much Sue and Oliver.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
That's a great idea. Sometimes if you switch over too fast, they get upset stomachs.
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Well I didn't tell you this but he also has inflammatory bowel disease. The vet in the article that you sent me did say that can food also can reverse the effects of inflammatory bowel disease he gets a steroid shot every 30 days for that or else you'll start getting diarrhea. that's what started the diabetes in the first place and January is sugar numbers were perfect until we started giving him shots every 30 days.
 
Okay I just checked his blood glucose again and it was 411 so I'm going to give him 2.5 and he just ate some soft food so I'm just putting some soft food down and that's all I'm going to give them. It's nice to be able to give all of them the same food so he doesn't feel left out. I probably will give him a few bites of dry food later just to balance it a little bit.
 
Aha. That explains the higher numbers better. Any infection or stress can raise the levels so IBD qualifies. And steriods can raise the levels also. As long as he needs steriods, you just have to work with the insulin and increase as necessary. There are lots of threads with info and ideas for inflammatory bowel disease. Just use the search button on the top of the page. The same for steroids use. There may be steroids that increase or don't increase the levels more. I don't know but I do know lots of people have researched their use.
 
You're so full of information thank you so much. When he was hospitalized two weeks ago he actually had urinary tract infection and he was anemic so now he's on antibiotics too.
 
Budesonide is an oral steroid which may be given for IBD. It isn't absorbed as much as prednisone or prednisolone, so it has less impact on the blood glucose.
 
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ok Im very upset. Today we tried getting Rileys reading and it kept saying 80 before insulin or food. just don't think I'm getting enough blood!!! I dont' know what to do. He does not like lowcarb treats, he hates when I touch his ears and I probley poked him 10 times today to get a reading. My husband even tried. He got 78. I gave him soft food lastnight and a small amount of hard. Do you think his numbers went down that much from soft food? I only gave him 1 unit and my husband is home with him. I'm so afraid his bg is high and he's not getting enough insulin, but we just cant get enough blood!!!! A warm sock is not easy either.Help!
 
dana moore said:
I'm going to try but Riley is really picky at this point. Write what I'm trying right now is to do a little of both more wet food than dry food and then gradually moving into wet food.
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It took me about 6 weeks to get Goof switched to wet food, if there was 1 tsp too much he'd throw up, so everday, I'd put a few less crunchies and a DAB more wet.
 
dana moore said:
ok Im very upset. Today we tried getting Rileys reading and it kept saying 80 before insulin or food. just don't think I'm getting enough blood!!! I dont' know what to do. He does not like lowcarb treats, he hates when I touch his ears and I probley poked him 10 times today to get a reading. My husband even tried. He got 78. I gave him soft food lastnight and a small amount of hard. Do you think his numbers went down that much from soft food? I only gave him 1 unit and my husband is home with him. I'm so afraid his bg is high and he's not getting enough insulin, but we just cant get enough blood!!!! A warm sock is not easy either.Help!
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When you get a reading that seems off...whether high or low, but especially low readings, you need to retest again or even twice more. Kitties can have sudden drops which need to be monitored closely. If his number was that low..and you got 2 readings showing that the best idea would be not to shoot. If your hubby is home he should be restesting again and closely monitoring where the levels are.

Also it would be VERY helpful to set up a spreadsheet with the numbers or at the very least post the numbers from the last day or so.


EDITED AT ADD:

Never assume the meter reading is wrong. You can test it on yourself to see if the readings are close to what normal would be for a person With lower numbers always err on the side of caution, especially when you do not have a lot of data as to how your kitty reacts to the insulin.
 
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dana moore said:
ok Im very upset. Today we tried getting Rileys reading and it kept saying 80 before insulin or food. just don't think I'm getting enough blood!!! I dont' know what to do. He does not like lowcarb treats, he hates when I touch his ears and I probley poked him 10 times today to get a reading. My husband even tried. He got 78. I gave him soft food lastnight and a small amount of hard. Do you think his numbers went down that much from soft food? I only gave him 1 unit and my husband is home with him. I'm so afraid his bg is high and he's not getting enough insulin, but we just cant get enough blood!!!! A warm sock is not easy either.Help!
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The amount of blood required for the test is very small and has nothing to do with the number. But you should retest if you get a wonky number as it's possible to get a bad strip on occasion.
 
Mogmom and Goofus said:
The amount of blood required for the test is very small and has nothing to do with the number. But you should retest if you get a wonky number as it's possible to get a bad strip on occasion.
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They did 2 readings and got 78 and 80. I really think the numbers may have been correct and that is a low number to shoot on for a newly diagnosed kitty with not much data
 
he was drinking a lot of water today so that's a reason why I thought his numbers were off and his bg lastnight was 411 before insulin. Can it go down that much? I know I shouldn't of given him any insulin. I'm trying really hard to do the right thing. Is honey ok to give if he goes into hypo? I just told my husband to make sure he eats more.
 
dana moore said:
he was drinking a lot of water today so that's a reason why I thought his numbers were off and his bg lastnight was 411 before insulin. Can it go down that much? I know I shouldn't of given him any insulin. I'm trying really hard to do the right thing. Is honey ok to give if he goes into hypo? I just told my husband to make sure he eats more.
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It depends how your kitty reacts to the insulin. Since this is new for Riley, you really don't know how he could react. A good example is my kitty last night. He uses Levemir, but the theory is the same. At PMPS her was 319 and at +5 he was 43. I have LOTS of data on my cat but that caught me by surprise!!
 
dana moore said:
s honey ok to give if he goes into hypo? I just told my husband to make sure he eats more.
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Honey will work. Don't feed him unless you need to. If he starts dropping you can try some honey with a bit of regular food and then retest in about 20 minutes. If he is still dropping then you can try honey and some medium or high carb WET food. You don't want to feed him too much, because if he is dropping you want to be able to get him to eat.
 
Also if he does start to drop a lot please post his numbers and you can edit your title and add a "911" tag in it to get more eyes on your post.
 
I'm at work and this is VERY hard to handle. I went through this on Saturday. Same situation. His numbers were all over the place. My husbands at home with him. I thought I should feed him to make sure the numbers don't drop? He is not eating that much as it is. He hates the food I'm giving him. I have really bad anxiety so I'm really in a bad place right now. I just had to take my anxiety meds. I've had 3 attacks since this started and I only get them 2 times maybe a year. I need to relax.
 
First, breathe. Even if he drops low today, your husband can handle it. He should get a test around 1 to 2 hours after the shot and see where Riley is. And then another test around 5. If he drops into the 50s, have hubby give him a little of his regular food and retest in 20 minutes or so. If he is still dropping, have him give some of the gravy off the higher carb food, then wait and test.

The good news is that you can test so you know exactly what is happening. And you can bring up low numbers with food and finally honey on the gums if necessary. You are doing fine! If the am test was wrong, and he was higher, a little too little insulin in one cycle won't hurt. If he was low, your hubby is there to handle it.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
First, breathe. Even if he drops low today, your husband can handle it. He should get a test around 2 hours after the shot and see where Riley is. And then another test around 5. If he drops into the 50s, have hubby give him a little of his regular food and retest in 20 minutes or so. If he is still dropping, have him give some of the gravy off the higher carb food, then wait and test.

The good news is that you can test so you know exactly what is happening. And you can being up low numbers with food and finally honey on the gums if necessary. You are doing fine! If the am test was wrong, and he was higher, a little too little insulin in one cycle won't hurt. If he was low, your hubby is there to handle it.
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Thanks for stepping in Sue. I know Dana is very worried and I want to make sure she gets the best advice in a calm manner. :)
 
So he is pretty flat. The food probably kept him up, though. I would tell your hubby to prepare for an "active cycle" and be ready to give Riley some snacks, maybe some gravy off high carb foods. The idea is to use the food to bring up his levels without filling him up. (You want him to continue to eat if needed)

Maybe get another test at +3. That might tell you whether he is going to stay up or drop down. Again, 50 is the number where you start monitoring carefully and give him snacks to bring him back up.
 
I'm just in awe if that was really his bg today. He seems to bounce if that's the case. Maybe I should give him a snack before bed to make sure he doesn't drop in middle of night too. If wet food is doing this than that's a good thing. I wont give food anymore if its under 200. promise.
 
dana moore said:
I'm just in awe if that was really his bg today. He seems to bounce if that's the case. Maybe I should give him a snack before bed to make sure he doesn't drop in middle of night too. If wet food is doing this than that's a good thing. I wont give food anymore if its under 200. promise.
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You are doing a great job! The testing is so very important and doing tests at different times from before shot to the next shot tells you a lot about what is happening and how Riley is processing the insulin. Food can have a very big impact on glucose levels so it is important that you do more testing when changing to lower carb foods since that can lower the glucose levels as well. Some kitties drop a lot when put on low carb wet food.

Right now the important thing is to keep monitoring the levels. You can feed below 200 but you shouldn't shoot below 200 at this point. If you are able to get a +5 or +6 in the evening then you will have a better idea how Riley is doing for overnight and then decide how much food/snack you want to give Riley for overnight.
 
How much does the stress cause numbers to rise when you are trying to take his bg and he's a bit upset? and how long does it take for food to cause readings to raise? Like if I wanted to give him a snack while I was testing.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
It depends how your kitty reacts to the insulin. Since this is new for Riley, you really don't know how he could react. A good example is my kitty last night. He uses Levemir, but the theory is the same. At PMPS her was 319 and at +5 he was 43. I have LOTS of data on my cat but that caught me by surprise!!
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Wow so unpredictable.
 
Every cat is different with how they react to stress. Stress during testing "can" cause glucose to be higher. The more relaxed you are (even if you have to fake it) the more relaxed Riley will be. When I started testing Tuxie it was him howling and me crying. As I learned to relax and get better at the tests Tuxie relaxed too. Now he will run over to his test area when I ask him if he "wants a pokey" since I always give a little bit of food or treat afterwards and he is VERY food motivated. Some kitties are quite happy with extra cuddles and pats.

If you need to give him a snack at the same time as testing that will not affect his glucose levels. Food takes about 15-30 minutes to start affecting the readings.
 
dana moore said:
Wow so unpredictable.
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Exactly. Insulin is a hormone and there can be so many variables as to how a kitty processes it. That is why testing is so important. Some kitties are very predictable and even they can get sudden highs or lows for no understandable reason.
 
dana moore said:
thank God I didn't give him 2.5 like vet recommended.
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YES!! And that was a great call on your part. You said in an earlier post that 3 units was making him lethargic. That is one of the major signs of a hypo episode. Some cats can go into low numbers and do not show any signs, and just need to be tested and fed as needed. Once a cat goes into an actual hypo attack then they need to go the the emergency immediately. So you showed good sense in shooting lower. ;)
 
dana moore said:
So you basically give based on readings but how do you know how much to give? 200, 300, 400 ect...
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OK when it comes to dosing with Prozinc that is not something I am familiar with since Prozinc can be done on a sliding scale while the one I use (levemir) is done differently. Sue would be better to advise you on the dosing since she has used this type of insulin. The only consistent principle for any insulin is do not shoot under 200 when you are first starting.
 
when you say first starting, why is that? Would you do it after the cat has been diabetic for some time?
 
Who feeds their cats 2 times a day? Riley only shows that he is real hungry after prozinc when his bg is high. He will eat a small amount when I give it to him but that's it and about after 20 minutes he will get up and eat a significant amount more? Maybe it's because the insulin makes him feel better? I hate that 2 hrs later he is looking for food. How many of you feed only 2 times a day? or give snacks in between? How often do you ck his bg numbers daily. What about his poor ears? Don't they get really sore?
 
Dana, have you seen the protocol we put together for ProZinc? It'll answer some of your questions. It is in blue in my signature. Just click on it.

With ProZinc, you look at the pre shot numbers and the nadirs of previous cycles. So, looking at his spreadsheet so far, we thought the first low numbers were a meter fluke. They could have been or maybe he is getting too much insulin. More data and more time will give us better answers. His numbers today seem true, not meter error, and suggest that 2.5 units is too high a dose. Anytime you get a number too low to shoot 12 hours after a shot, the dose needs to be reduced.

Let's see how this cycle goes and what his pm number looks like. He may bounce from the lows of today, but even if he bounces into high numbers, we'd still suggest reducing so we don't get into a pattern of highs and lows.

It seems complicated at first, but the more data you get, the better you get at interpretating it and figured put how the insulin is working for your kitty. It works differently in every cat.

Do you have any new numbers?

And yes, thank goodness you are testing and not just blindly shooting 3 units. One of the reasons we get nervous when a vet starts on ahigh dose and doesn't insist on home testing.
 
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