Newly diagnosed and overwhelmed.

Teach your son how to test and inject insulin. The more caregivers available that are used to the sugardance and can help with treatment can be invaluable. Maybe you need a vacation or get held up at work or something and need someone else to help out.

Maybe the person you had cat sitting Jasper and Smokey, while you were away visiting your sister, would be interested in learning to treat diabetes.

 

Sprinkling a bit of Fortiflora on the wet food may get Ninja to eat a bit more. Most cats like the flavor, even if they don't need the probiotics. Your vet should have it. Both chewy.com and amazon too.

 

2020 spreadsheet all set up!! Thank you for the link!!

My son is 15, he is a bit scared to try but said he would. I would feel more comfortable just taking him to my vet when I am gone. I have already booked a visit for him in March as my son and I have a trip to Ireland planned. He will get his own kitty condo and they said they would follow my lead as far as the dosing goes. And the price is super reasonable, $180.00 bucks for the whole week meds included.

I'm intrigued by the Fortiflora idea, They have the Purina brand at my local Petsmart. Would that work??

Happy New Year to you!!!

 

Yup, Purina is the one that makes the fortiflora as far as I know. Worth a try.

That is a good price to board a cat at a vet. A friend recently had to board 2 cats, in the same condo but they had to be separated and it cost her over $50 a day, including having meds given.

Happy New Year to you too.

 

Purrfect!! I will pick some of that up!! On a slight positive note, we were with family last night and when we got home there was a chewed open ziplock bag of Dr. Elsey's on the table. So somebody wanted to eat it!! LOL!! I think I will put out that and a frozen hockey puck or two tomorrow and see how that goes.

 

Oh my on the chewed up bag of dry food! I remember years ago when I was removing all the dry cat food from the house, I put an unopened bag of dry food in the hallway and went to grab another bag of dry food. By the time I got back in < 2 minutes, Wink had chewed the thick plastic Hill's cat food bag open and ate who knows how much food.

 

I have a feeling it wasn't Ninja, my bet is probably my fat little girl Smokey. Lol!!

 

So this mornings AMPS was 70!? He ate 3/4 FF and I held the insulin as I have to work today and won’t be home to monitor him. I’m leaving hokey pucks out and Dr. Elsey’s.

 

Good call on skipping the insulin this morning.

Without insulin, especially an 'in and out' insulin like the Vetsulin you are using, risk of hypoglycemia (hypo) is not there.

By 'in and out' we mean that type of insulin usually only lasts for the 12 hour cycle, no residual effects after that time frame. It does not get released so slowly as the long lasting insulins that can have effects for 16 hours or more. (Called a depot or reserve with Lantus or Levimir).

Expect PMPS to be high tonight. Hope all 3 kitties enjoy the 'hockey pucks' of frozen food you left behind.

 

Thank you so much!! I was so surprise to see that low this morning!! Smokey is starting to nibble at the Dr. Elsey's so perhaps the other 2 will too. Yeah, I thought he might be higher when I check the PMPS. One I have learned from treating my diabetic humans is that this disease is can be so unpredictable, you think you are doing everything right and it still gives you curve balls. So frustrating!!

 

Hope I did the right thing this morning. He's had a weird day yesterday. Low at AMPS and then low again at the +3 PMPS. This morning he didn't eat as much as he usually does. Could he be getting bored of the FF? I gave him a skinny 1 unit as I was scared he would drop and I won't be there. I left out the FF that all the cats didn't finish, DR. Elsey's (Smokey has been eating it.) and 1 hockey puck. They only nibbled on one of the hockey pucks yesterday. Does it take this long to get cats regulated? Do I need to switch insulins?

 

Glad you remembered about the 1 Skinny dose.

Yes, it can take a long time to get cats regulated.
Yes, you may want to talk to your vet about the possibility of a different insulin for your cat, although Ninja hasn't been on insulin very long. Less than a month.

Sorry to hear they didn't eat much of the hockey pucks. It provides food that slowly thaws and can be eaten a bit throughout the day. Where the frozen food pucks thawed out when you got home?

If possible, on a day you are not working, doing a curve at home would be good. A curve is where you test pre-shot, then at least every 2 hours for a 12 hour cycle. I won't recommend doing a curve if you have had to skip a shot, since the skipped shot often leads to a 'bounce' affect. Ninja's body reacts to those very low numbers by basically dumping extra glucose into the bloodstream. Think of it as a self protection mechanism.

If you have a home testing curve series of BG tests, that may help your vet to see what is happening with Ninja.

 

Ok. I think I will wait another week or two before I talk with the vet. I have been reading on all the insulins and it appears they all have positives and negatives. I read about a sliding scale too, but it sounds like I might be doing that already with the skinny and fat doses.

The hockey pucks were thawed when I got home. I can do a curve on Sunday, I was thinking about doing that anyway.

I am so sorry I keep bugging you. I truly truly appreciate your help and advice.

 

You're not bugging me. I try to look at Ninja's SS every morning anyway.

Yes, all the insulins do have pros and cons.

You mentioned that you 'treat diabetic humans'. So guessing you might be in the medical field, and work long, long days. That may limit the times you are available to test and observe what is going on with Ninja. Makes it harder to treat a diabetic cat, but it can be done. It may influence what insulins you want to try. Something to think about.

I had a diabetic cat at one time. Other people helped me. I've taught some people locally how to test their cats BG levels. I cat sit regularly, a couple dozen times a year, for someone close by that has a diabetic cat and other pets. Rescued a diabetic cat for DCIN that already had an interested adopter, so I helped get him from old home to new home with a brief stay at my place before driving him to the airport for a flight to the midwest.

Paying it forward as they say.

 

Thank you for looking at his SS!!! Yes, I am a registered nurse. I am a school nurse so I get evenings, weekends, school breaks and summers off. I work from 7:30 in the morning and I get home around 4pm M-F. I've been a nurse for 28 years with the last 11 of them being in the school. I gotta tell you, this kitty case is testing me!! He can't talk like my diabetic kiddos!! Lol!! I am so thankful for you!!!

 

Sure would be much easier if our cats could tell us what is going on. But like an infant or toddler, they don't have those language skills. So, we learn to read their 'body language'.

Sometimes, they only give us subtle clues as to what is going on and that makes it even harder to treat our beloved pets.

In that case, with having evenings and weekends available, you might talk to your vet about Levimir or Lantus, 2 long lasting insulins used off label in cats. I mentioned Levimir first because it has a later onset and nadir than Lantus. Just thinking that insulin might work better for you with your work schedule than Lantus, but both good insulins.

Have you read some of the stickies over in the Lantus/Levimir forum?

 

I will read up on those insulin’s and stickies. After his PM shot tonight he actually wanted to play his favorite game! Fetch!

 

Were you going to try doing a curve test today?

 

I was, would it be better not to since I left the food out?

 

As long as you got that pre-shot BG test before food, you are good to go. We expect some food influence in the rest of the (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10) numbers during a curve. Try not to give any food past about +5 to +6.

 

Ok. Right, I usually always pick up the food at least 2 hours PMPS and before I go to bed. Forgot last night. Ugh!

 

Ninja, looks like you bounced back up already. From those Greenies and the old high carb food your momma gave you at +6.

Dana, next time if you see a number that low, try just a teaspoon of the wet food first, retest in about 30 minutes to see if the numbers are rising.

Remember you can always ask for help with low numbers. Either here on the Caninsulin/Vetsulin or over in Feline Health (the Main Forum).

 

Ok, I will try that next time. Just freaked out a little bit. I’ll try another curve next weekend too. Not sure today tells us much, but what do I know. Lol!!

 

Would you be willing to comment on this member's post? He (Steven) is still trying to decide on a meter and wanted feedback from real people. I knew you had the Relion Premier Classic.

 

Yes of course!! Finished the curve. Check out my SS. Crazy day. Is this information any good?

 

SS is all over the place. Ninja is still bouncing all over the place with his BG levels.

This curve and the other test data shows us that:
The duration isn't much more than 9 hours for Ninja on the Vetsulin.
That the 30 minute delay from food to insulin shot is helping to slow down the drop. Good, because with out that, I think you might be seeing BG levels <50.
That he needs some food left out during the day, because he still drops a bit lower than we like to see between the +3 to +7 timeframe.
That he is likely dropping lower at night then that +3 is showing us and then bounces up to high numbers by morning. So food out at night is good. Just a little bit, so there are no leftovers by morning.

I think the Fat 1 U dose is good. But I'd like to see those BG's level out a bit more. Maybe the Skinny 1U dose would flatten out the numbers a bit.

On Saturday 1/4/20 you could have stalled (20-30 minutes), no food yet, taken another BG test to see if it was rising and then fed and given the insulin on a rising number. Sometimes you have to stall a couple of times. A bit easier to do when you don't have to be out of your home for work, appointments, or simply getting all those errands run that need to get done on the weekend. (Hindsight is great, isn't it! "If I only knew.......")

Not sure what to tell you now. I'll tag @MrWorfMen's Mom to get her feedback.

p.s. Thanks for commenting on a couple of members posts about your experience with the Relion Premier Classic meter you are using. Having someone that has been using a particular meter give feedback to others can really help.

 

I do feel like I’m flying by the seat of my pants. ALL OF THE TIME! Will it ever get better? High again this morning so when the 30 minutes is up I’ll give him a fat unit. Should I be giving skinny units now all the time? I can start leaving food out at night, just a little as you said. I think he is getting bored with the FF flavors I have so thought I would pick up a couple cans of the Friskies Pate. They have a lot of different flavors. I haven’t given them any of the seafood flavors, what the thoughts on the seafood flavors?

Happy to help wherever I can. Just don’t know a lot to be helpful. Hopefully one day I will.

 

I agree with Deb. I think Ninja is a bouncy fella who is probably dropping lower than you are aware at night and then bouncing back up to higher numbers by AM. Looks to me like a dose of 1u or a skinny 1u is working but taking BG a wee bit lower than recommended with Vetsulin. Some cats are bouncier than others and they bounce until they don't. There is nothing you can do to stop bouncing. I would however try to stick with a consistent dose so you are not giving a higher dose when the bounce is breaking as that just sets kitty up for more bouncing.

How about trying a dose of 0.75u or are you using a Vetpen? If you are using the Vetpen, I suggest getting syringes with half unit markings so you can make finer dose adjustments. Ninja has technically earned a reduction to 0.75u on a few occasions and lowering the dose and letting him get used to slightly lower BG levels might help ease off some of the bouncing you are seeing and bring down those pre-shot readings.

 

Try the 0.75 U dose instead. You have to eyeball it with the syringes. Just like you did for the fat and skinny 1 unit dose. Just a tiny bit less than on the skinny 1 U.

 

Think back to when you first started and how much you know now. Even encouragement is good or sharing how the testing was harder for you at first can make a difference.

Pick one person over in the Main Forum, follow along. Make comments when you can. Every little bit helps.

 

Ok tonight I’ll do the 0.75unit. I gave the fat unit this morning. Ugh. ‍♀️ And as long as he is a one 200 that is that dose I stick with right? No waivering. Thank you both for your support.

I’ll start reading more of the forums and definitely help where I can!❤️

 

Yes, let's try to stick with the 0.75U dose, starting this evening. Darn, thought we might not get the message to you in time.

Above 200, 0.75 U for now. Stall and retest to see if BG rising if pre-test <200. Try to use that stalling method and not to skip the insulin shot if at all possible. Ninja needs to be eating of course. You could give what we used to call a ' big chicken shot' of half the normal dose, if you feel comfortable doing that. I don't think you are ready for that yet. Another curve this coming weekend.

Remember, you hold the needle and need to do what you are comfortable doing. Yes, ideally insulin every day 2x a day, but we don't live in an ideal world. I was aggressive trying to use Tight Regulation with a different insulin (lantus) for my Wink but I was not working full time. But that was me and knowing what I could and could not do with my work and life schedule and responsibilities. You are you and are making the decisions.

My thoughts on seafood
Some seafood flavors are ok, maybe a couple of times a week. One of the reasons is because many cats love the seafood and then refuse to eat any other flavor. Another reason behind limiting the seafood flavors is because of mercury and other contamination in the food.

You could try mixing a little bit of a seafood flavor in with one of the meat flavors of FF you are using. Maybe try a teaspoon of seafood per serving?

I feed my cat seafood a couple of meals a week. She'll eat anything though! I think it comes from her being from a feral cat colony originally, and eating whatever had been donated and whatever the people maintaining the colony had on hand.

 

Oh my god , he is too adorable

 

FYI, Ninja has a really long thread going, up to 2 pages already so you have to go to page 2 to see the latest info.

 

Ok tonight I will do the 0.75 units. Hopefully this will help. I am thinking that perhaps after next weekend I will share my SS with my vet and ask about lantus or prozinc. I'm not sure how he will take the fact that I have been listening to others that are not vets but I know that you all know way more about it. Hopefully it will not be an issue. Which insulin do you all feel would be best, lantus or prozinc??

Ok I will try seafood flavors once or twice a week. And some of the Friskies pate as they seem to have way more non seafood flavors.

 

Thank you!!! Yes he is!!! I love his little butt so much!!!!

 

Well I got the Young Again Zero sample and it was a hit!!! Now hopefully they have the GI symptoms!! Finally found one that they like!!!

 

Hoping they do NOT have the GI symptoms other people have reported. That could get really smelly with the diarrhea and gas smells.

Fingers crossed for all of your kitties liking this food and continuing to like it. That was something else people had said,that their cats liked it for a while and then stopped eating it.

We'll have to see if Ninja's BG levels are good on the Young Again Zero.

 

Me too but truth is since they have been eating the wet their poop is a lot smellier than it was. Don't see how it could get worse. LOL. I only had a small sample and they all gobbled it up last night so now I'm waiting for my bag to come in. He was 320 this morning but I gave the 0.75 as suggested.

 

Hi Dana,

Thought I remembered you were planning another curve this weekend. So I came over to check out the results on the SS.

More blues at the mid-cycle of the curve test where nice to see. Looks like he is making a little bit of progress.

How's his appetite?
5 P's still ok? (peeing, purring, pooping, preening,playing) some or more of these back to normal?

How are Jasper, Smokey and Ninja liking the Young Again Zero Mature food? No digestive upsets I hope.

How much of the dry food would you guess Ninja is eating? Looks like he only eats 1/2 can of the FF each cycle. Is he losing or gaining weight?

 

Thank you for checking!!!! He has all of the 5 Ps happening. So much fun to see him playing again!! They all like the Zero Mature and nibble on it freely during the day and night. I do pick up all the food 2 hours pre shot. I also leave out the uneaten FF and he nibbles on that as well. He’s always been a grazer. He does look and feel like he is gaining a bit of weight. No digestive issues other than a bit mire stinky but that happened when I switched them to the wet food. It hasn’t gotten any worse on the zero mature. Thank you thank you so much for checking in on us!! I was wondering if his numbers today meant this were going ok. Should I do a curve every weekend?

 

Ninja's BG numbers do look like he is doing ok. Still looking for improvement of course. Yes, I would suggest a curve every weekend for now if you can.

Great that you are doing that +3 in the PM cycle. Many cats go lower at night and then 'Bounce' higher in the morning. And they bounce until they don't bounce anymore. You have to wait it out. "Patience young grasshopper".

Bron and Sheba gave this good explanation of a bounce in someone else's post (Kingy also on Vetsulin). "Bounces can last from 1 to 6 cycles and there is nothing you can do but wait them out. Bounces happen when the BG drop too fast , too low or lower numbers than kitty is used to. Then his body dumps glucose and regulatory hormones into his system to ‘save’ himself."

"Bouncing can last 1 to 6 12 hour cycles. Some cats are bouncier than others. A lot of cats bounce in the beginning. Some only for one cycle, others more. Some stop after a while and others bounce all the way to remission."

Ninja dropped almost 200 points from pre-shot to mid-cycle, hence the bounce. Ninja is probably bouncing each 12 hour cycle. Dropping about half way from the pre-shot BG would be better.

No idea what your schedule is like, night owl or early to bed and early to rise. Would it by chance be possible to get another BG reading at night, especially when Ninja's +3 is in the blue range? When his BG's are in the mid to low blue range (150's or under), a test around +5 or +6 could be helpful. Some people set an alarm to do that later PM test. Some people like me are insomniacs and don't sleep well through the night. Some people get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. With Wink I said to myself, "Well Deb, your up already, might as well grab another BG reading on Wink".

Couldn't sleep so got up at 3 AM (1 AM your time) this morning to check the board for an hour or so before trying to get more sleep.

 

@Deb & Wink, he is 158 this morning. Should I hold his insulin this morning as I leave for work in an hour?

 

If you have not fed Ninja, you could retest and see if the BG is going up or down.

 

Ugh. I did feed him. He was starving. Lol. Darn it! I’m should have done that stall thing. I guess I will hold it.

 

So you have another option of testing again if the food was not too long ago. How long ago was the food?

You could also try a small token dose, say 0.25 U. Instead of your normal 0.75 U dose.

or you can skip.

 

He ate about 45 minutes ago. I’m going to skip it. Too afraid he will drop with me not here. Thank you for your help. I’ll start getting up a 3am to check him and start remembering that I don’t have to panic if he is below 200 preshot, wait a bit, check him again and go from there. Ugh! Why can’t this happen on the weekends!! Lol!

 

OK, skipped shot it is. Remember the stalling thing next time. He'll be high tonight at PMPS no doubt, and probably for a few cycles after that. Meditation anyone? Yoga? Deep breathing exercises?

Oh yes, why can't he do that on the weekend for you? Pretty please Ninja. Oh hey, 3 am your time is already 5 am where I am. Although I'm awake by then, I don't usually get on the computer until later. Unless I have insomnia that is and can't get back to sleep.

 

Well, I'm not going to stay up at 3am lol!! Get up, check his sugar, pick up the food and go back to be until 6:30!! So he could be all over the place for the next 2 days then. Would you have given him the 0.25?? I am just so afraid he will drop and I will not be there.

 

You know your cat better than I ever will. You know Ninja's little quirks and what they mean. You are still learning to use the Vetsulin and what to do if the numbers drop low. We talked about Shoot/no shoot limit back in post #45 (back on page 1).

Here it is again though. For those just starting out giving insulin, still new to home testing, trying to then do a food change to lower carb after they are testing, we suggest a No shoot limit of 200 to start. That will change over time as you gain experience and can be lowered.

Options:
1. You can always stall the shot, and recheck in 20-30 minutes to see if BG level is rising. If you have already fed, then we'll see some food influence in the next reading.

2. You can give a token dose. Usually 1/2 or less of the normal dose. He might be high at the next pre-shot, but he'll get back on track.

3. You can skip the shot entirely.

Ninja has given you low numbers in the past and you have skipped the shot. You will skip the dose again. It's easy to start right back up with the next dosing cycle. No worries. He'll get back on track.

Remember that you took your cat Ninja on vacation with you to visit your sister over the holidays! How many people would do that? Remember that Ninja was only diagnosed 1 month ago. Remember that you put in all that effort to get not only Ninja but Smokey and Jasper eating a better low carb food. It wasn't easy to find foods they would all like and eat.

You've come a long way. You are doing well. It takes time. This is a marathon not a sprint. Tortoise vs hare.

p.s. I don't have to go to work. I'm retired. Still have to do all that normal daily stuff like grocery shopping and laundry. I would have given the normal dose, since I would have been home all day to test. In your situation, I would have given the reduced dose, half the normal amount or less IF (and it's a big IF) I knew the BG was rising with a second BG test AND I knew Ninja was eating well, had a good appetite. No I would not have given Ninja his full dose on a BG of 158 if I was not there to monitor.

 

Maybe put a sticky note with the Stalling options with Ninja's BG testing supplies.

 

Thank you Deb for all your help and wisdom. I so appreciate your kind words and encouragement. He was high this afternoon and evening as expected. He still had a great night. We had a very enjoyable game of fetch tonight, it made me so happy to see him trot back to me with his little ball in his mouth so I could throw it again for him. A marathon not a sprint, need to make this my mantra. Thank you again. And Ninja thanks you too!

 

Ok here we are again, 168 AMPS. I’ll check him again in 20 minutes and see if he went up.

 

Stalling techniques being used. Good for you remembering that.

 

30 minutes later he was 167 and starving!! Lol! No insulin this morning.

 

Ninja got a 94 last night in the middle of the cycle!!! Whoo whoo! Ninja, are you on a mission?

Thought he might be dropping lower at night. What do you think about trying to lower his dose to 0.5 U? So you can give the insulin twice a day.

I'd do the reduction, starting with the PM dose, 1/14/20.

 

I was wondering the very same thing!!! So yes I will try the 0.5 units tonight. And yes!! I'm hoping he is on a mission!!!

 

@Deb & Wink With his numbers last night do you think that was a bounce? Or maybe he nibbled on some food before I woke up at 3 to check him. Or maybe it is just diabetes!! LOL. Gave him 0.5 this morning. Hoping he will be ok. Below is a picture took last night, he wanted food but it wasn't time yet!! LOL . Tough love!!

 

Partially from the skipped shot. Which you had to do with that low AMPS. Twice (both 1/13 and 1/14). You only have so long to try the stalling technique before you head off to work.
Partially from the low numbers he has been getting.
Partially from 'bouncing'. Takes time to settle the BG's back again after bouncing. Patience.

Maybe he ate a bit before your +6 last night. Who knows for sure. Medical treatment of any type is not an exact science. Never will be. Let's see how Ninja does on this reduced dose of 0.5 and then we will reevaluate. Adding that +6 test in the PM cycle has really helped us to see what is going on.

Since Ninja is relatively new with getting insulin, a BG at nadir of 90-100 mg/dl, it's a good idea to reduce the dose. If the dose needs to go back up, that is easy to do.

p.s. What is your favorite color?

 

Ok, Thank you. Just wanted to be sure I was thinking on the right track. Purple?

 

Patience pants Dana. I wanted to give you patience pants in your favorite color.

For when Ninja just isn't cooperating, Smokey is begging for food even though there is some in the dish, Jasper has curled up in the laundry basket on top of the blouse you were going to wear to work and you are ready to give up in frustration, remember to pull on your patience pants.

Treating diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time and trying different things, with dose, with the food, with learning how to test. Cats never read a "rule book" on what they should be doing during this diabetes journey. Or any other time in their life if you think about it. Their plan is there is no plan. Kind of like teenagers. Parenting is hard.

One of the many "jobs" I have done in my varied and interesting life was as a dorm parent in a high school age boarding school for the arts. While I had another full time job. Daytime, teachers and staff were the ones in charge. Shared responsibilities with 2 other people, but nighttime and every third weekend, I was the responsible adult.

 

Ha!!! I love it!!! Thank you!!! I'll get there!! I promise!!! Thank you!!! So Much!!!

 

Hi Dana. This post is getting really long, 2 pages now. You can start a new post here and link your old post at the top.
Maybe use a more relevant title for the new post too.