Newbie diagnosis - how long can i go in between shots?

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JackieVendetti

Member Since 2013
Hi,

My cat is 13 yo and we just found out he has diabetes last Thursday. We first gave him his shot at 10 am the next day. Then we couldn't get him to eat around the time that night. Then the next morning, we gave him his shot at 7:30am. Then we couldn't get him to eat around 7:30 that night. We really wanted to get him around 8am/pm each day.

Anyways, this has been going on for a few days now and now I am waiting for him to give him his food and it's 8:12 (he had his shot at 7:49 this morning).

Can I give it to him as late as 9pm? Or should I just skip it again tonight.

This is so hard! The cat is used to eating several times a day. In fact, he's been eating 6x a day - trying to wean him onto wet food, but it's so hard.

Please let me know if I can give him his shot as late as 9pm or should I just skip it?

Thanks so much,
Jackie
 
Hello and welcome to the board!

What kind of insulin are you giving? that makes all the difference in shot time etc.

Wendy
 
Hi Jackie and welcome! What's your kitty's name and what state are you in? Feline diabetes is very manageable and your kitty may be one of those who can be controlled by diet. Maybe. It is great that you are transitioning to wet food! What type of wet food are your transitioning him to?

My name is Kat and Gobbles is my 11 year old neutered kitty, who is in diabetic remission. He was on Lantus for six months, then went into remission. He is a diet-controlled diabetic.

Without knowing what his blood glucose level is, I would NOT, ever, give him a shot. It is just far too dangerous to inject a cat with insulin, without knowing if they are at a safe level to shoot. Do you have a glucometer?

As Wendy stated: which insulin is your cat on? What dosage?
 
Thank you for the welcome!

He is getting Guargine 1cc 2x a day.

Oh boy - I have a glucometer but I cannot seem to get blood from him. His name is Petie (usually Petie-Pie) and he was just diagnosed on Thurs. He goes back to the vet tomorrow. I did a keto-diastix on Saturday and it was Ketone positive - but he's perfectly happy and healthy, using his scratch pad and eating well and begging for one drink (which is down from the constant drinking of last week!).

His blood glucose level was 450 and then went down to 403 without eating for a almost 10 hours that day.
 
JackieVendetti said:
...I did a keto-diastix on Saturday and it was Ketone positive - but he's perfectly happy and healthy, using his scratch pad and eating well and begging for one drink (which is down from the constant drinking of last week!).

His blood glucose level was 450 and then went down to 403 without eating for a almost 10 hours that day.
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Petie is on Lantus, then. Awesome! We can help you with testing Petie. Are you trying to get blood from his ear and/or his paw pad?

He was positive for ketones? If so, that is not good. Did you mean negative? Can you test him again, tonight? Ketones are nothing to mess around with. What color did the stick change to?

When and how did you get the blood glucose levels of 450 and 403?
 
Ketones are VERY serious! Any ketones over trace can be life threatening and you should call the emergency vet!!!

The lack of eating may have caused ketones as well as not enough insulin. When did he last eat??

Lantus (glargine) is supposed to be given every 12 hours (give or take 15-30minutes). But given his ketone history I would not skip it.

But really try to get a test first !! Here are some tips.. But the key is to get the ear really warm, out something hard behind the ear to press against and for now I would try freehanding the lancet instead of the device..

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub


Wendy
 
The doctor took his blood glucose at 11am (450) and again at 6pm (403) last Thursday.

1cc of lantin - not sure what size the syringe is?

I called the doc and told him that the keto stick was the last color on teh strip but that he was fine. The vet said he is going to have ketones for a while until we get his sugar under control.

I also have to mention the cat just recovered from a fractured paw (and frequent vet visits) and an abrupt change in food.
 
What kind of ketone strips are they? Can you look at the pack and type what it says on it? Ie ketodiastix or ketone strips or what.

A blood test is important in this case, I am worried how high he is. Please try warming the ear and then poking at a 45degree angle . What did you use last time to put behind the ear? Was it something hard?

They get used to testing and its less painful than you pricking your own fingers as they have less nerves in them so don't worry. Make sure you give a treat after.

Wendy
 
Ketodiastix. And we will try that again tonigh to prick his ear and wwarmer it first. All of this is soooo hard. Thank you all for your kind posts.
and yes hewasn't eating very regularly when I took that reading. He is so much better now. can you tell me how you get his urine? I was using newspaper but the paper absorbed it andI had to smear the stick on the paper.
 
For the blood glucose testing, you don't want to use a needle. Instead, use a lancet. Go to the pharmacy and purchase 27 or 28 gauge lancets. Optionally, get the lancet device to hold the lancet and poke it.

There are urine testing tips in my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools.

With Lantus, it is really important to give the shots as close to 12 hours apart as possible.

The terminology is really important, so I want to clarify something for you.

Lantus is an insulin with 100 units in 1 cc (aka 1 mL). That's why they call it a U-100 insulin and have a matching U-100 syringe.

I doubt you are giving 1 cc - that would be giving him 100 units of insulin.
I suspect you are giving him 1 unit - the first tiny little mark on the syringe if the syringe marks full units or the second tiny mark on the syringe if it marks half units.
 
Tonite? Or Saturday?

You really want to discuss diabetic ketoacidosis with your vet tomorrow. It's a serious and expensive condition to treat.


Wendy
 
that was on Saturday. He is soooo much better now. He is actually eating a little bit of the wet food and he loves loves loves dehyrdated chicken and beef and lamb lungs. i sprinkle that on the wet food along with some of his old dry food and he eats that about 4 times a day. he never eats the whole thing, only a couple of teaspoons at a time, but i am also supplementing it with about 4 tablespoons of dry food on it's own. i am also giving him mother's milk and florazyme - all in small doses since i just got them on friday.

i am also thinking on using something called immuno-dmg liquid but it might be all too much at once and i don't want to shock his system too much!

he is finally back to regular pooping, scratching and coming out for visits :)
 
will the vet tell me tomorrow if he has diabetic ketoacidosis? could he still have it and be eating and scratching and coming out for visits? please now i am scared :(

is this a bad vet for telling me differently? should i call another vet?
 
JackieVendetti said:
...I called the doc and told him that the keto stick was the last color on teh strip but that he was fine. The vet said he is going to have ketones for a while until we get his sugar under control...
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I'm surprised at that.

JackieVendetti said:
will the vet tell me tomorrow if he has diabetic ketoacidosis? could he still have it and be eating and scratching and coming out for visits? please now i am scared :(

is this a bad vet for telling me differently? should i call another vet?
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It sounds like he is doing much better. If he were in DKA, he would be very ill, so it is unlikely.
 
Oh phew. Yeah the doc said if his behavior is fine then all is well. He said you can't just go by the stick reading, you have to go by his behavior as well and he is alert and scratching things and eating and following us around. But I am anxious to see what the reading is tomorrow and having the doc show me how to get blood and do a reading. Have a good night and thank you so much.
 
Hi fellow posters,

We just got back from the vet and the vet said he is doing wonderfully. No ketones in the urine! My reading must have been off - again, the urine was about 30 mins old and I rubbed the stick on the newspaper. I am going out to get some non-absorbent stuff and will test his urine every other day like the vet suggested.

His blood glucose went from 403-311 and he went down from 13 pounds to 12.4 pounds. The glucose is GREAT, but the weight concerns me because at first he started eating the wet food (I douse it in dehyrdrated chicken and put his dry food on it and keep offering him different flavors and brands). Well when I say eating the wet food, he was licking it and eating his dry food off of it. Now he doesn't go near it and I want to keep calories in him so I am concerned. He just started doing that today. I am not sure what to do. The doc gave me Hill m/d dry food to see if he will eat that. Next time I feed him I will mix the hill's dry d/m in with his dry food on top of the wet, but I hate it when he walks away from the wet food.

Any ideas? I tried putting tuna on it - it was a no go. I tried dousing it in 100% freeze dried chicken breast, no go. I tried lamb's lung which he liked at first, now he doesn't. I also got 100% freeze-dried beef and it's a no go.

I don't know how hard to push it. Should I keep offering it to him even though he is walking away? This morning he ate a tiny bit of the dry food on top of the wet food, but not enough to give him his shot so I gave him a couple teaspoons of his dry food which he ate quickly. He didn't quite finish it, but ate about 2 teaspoons full.

I wish I could magically have him eating 2x a day and eating wet food only. I really feel like his diabetes would turn around!!

I have to keep reminding myself that for 13 years, this little kitty has eaten nothing but dry food all day long. So this is a big switch. It's so hard!!
 
JackieVendetti said:
...His blood glucose went from 403-311 and he went down from 13 pounds to 12.4 pounds
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That's a better blood glucose level, but still about the renal threshold; but it is a good start :-D What is his ideal weight?

JackieVendetti said:
Any ideas? I tried putting tuna on it - it was a no go. I tried dousing it in 100% freeze dried chicken breast, no go. I tried lamb's lung which he liked at first, now he doesn't. I also got 100% freeze-dried beef and it's a no go.
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If you cannot get him to eat wet food, I highly suggest feeding him Young Again Zero Carb dry food. It is expensive, but the lowest carb food on the market (actually, about 5% carbs) and the ingredients are top-notch. You can call the company, tell them you have a diabetic cat and would like a sample of the zero carb variety. Here's a link: http://youngagainpetfood.com/10browse.asp?category=cats&ProductCode=92100 This food is a much more appropriate dry food for diabetes than the prescription or any commercial dry foods. The zero carb can be used as you try to transition him to wet, and if he absolutely does not transition, IMHO, it is the best choice for dry food junkies. There are members on this board who feed zero carb to their cats, and it may make a change in your kitty's blood glucose levels, for the better.

JackieVendetti said:
I don't know how hard to push it. Should I keep offering it to him even though he is walking away? This morning he ate a tiny bit of the dry food on top of the wet food, but not enough to give him his shot so I gave him a couple teaspoons of his dry food which he ate quickly. He didn't quite finish it, but ate about 2 teaspoons full.
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He has to eat, bottom line. A lot of us members feed our cats several times a day--"free-ranging", if you will.

JackieVendetti said:
I have to keep reminding myself that for 13 years, this little kitty has eaten nothing but dry food all day long. So this is a big switch. It's so hard!!
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You're right, Jackie. Have you tried raw meat? cooked meat? How about sprinkling a little parmesan cheese on the wet food?
 
So are you saying that I should just give in and just go back to all dry food?

I have tried all kinds of raw meat and cooked - he doesn't like it!! He is soooo finicky. I haven't tried parmesan cheese, though. I will try that next.

I know this cat. I know he will starve himself for what he wants. Which is all dry food. But again, it's only been since last Thursday. He just never walked away from the wet food with the dry food on top and all the chicken and lamb and stuff on it.
 
Oh - I didn't see the top of your post. That food sounds awesome!! I will try that, too. I feel like I am going to have a heart attack with all of this.

How do I know what his ideal weight is? At one point, he was 18 pounds - but that was about 5 years ago and he was fat, then.

He is a big boy, though. Big boned. But he looks perfect right now, at 12.4 pounds.
 
JackieVendetti said:
So are you saying that I should just give in and just go back to all dry food?
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No, don't give up on the wet food. It can take several weeks before cats switch over, so keep persistent. If you haven't seen it already, you can also check out these tips for transitioning that might help you with some more ideas. That website also has a page on feline obesity and figuring out how much your cat should eat to maintain a proper weight as well as a the most comprehensive commercial cat food list available (you want to find foods with less than 10% carbs, the lower the better).

And parmesan cheese is the favorite trick in my household. :-D Fortiflora is also a really good enticement. I tried that for the first time last week and my cats about ran me over trying to get to their food! :lol:

JackieVendetti said:
I don't know how hard to push it. Should I keep offering it to him even though he is walking away? This morning he ate a tiny bit of the dry food on top of the wet food, but not enough to give him his shot so I gave him a couple teaspoons of his dry food which he ate quickly. He didn't quite finish it, but ate about 2 teaspoons full.
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The great thing with Lantus is that the cat doesn't have to eat at shot time. With Lantus, it's more important for cats to eat around halfway between cycles (about 4-7 hours after a shot) than it is for them to eat before their shot. As long as he's eating at some point throughout the day and as long as his BGs are high enough (over 200), you can give him his shot.
 
You can check him against this body condition scoring chart to see how his weight measures up.

It took me 3 weeks of very hard work and persistence to switch my dry food addict Wink to wet food. Tried almost every trick and tip in that transitioning doc Kpassa gave you a link for.
 
Thank, guys. So tonight, Mark gave Petie some dry food at 5pm, so of course it's 8 and time for his shot and he's not hungry. But he did eat some wet food!! Woohoo!! But we feel not enough to give him his night shot. We'll wait and see if he comes out and eats some more, but if not, we'll skip the shot tonight. This is hard!!

Ok, I won't give up. It only took you 3 weeks? And that story about the fortiflora was awesome!! I can't wait to try that. I ordered it online and will let you know.

I have a feeling he won't be out to eat until around 10pm.
 
Keep trying with the wet and the tips the guys gave you. Also try a few different types of low carb wet foods and vary them.. Sometimes it's just a case of finding a wet food or flavourbthey love.
 
Have you tried some raw food?
I know this sounds weird, but Katie was a dry food addict for the first 2 years of her life. I tried to switch her to canned food and she just didn't like it, just wanted dry food, that was it. I knew I wanted to eventually switch both of my kitties to raw, but I mistakenly thought I had to get her her on the canned food first. Wrong! She took to the raw food immediately, hated the canned food, loves the raw. And still does to this day (6 years later).

You could give it a try...you never know. Just try a little cut up raw chicken for starters, see if he is interested. If you do want to try a raw food, I would suggest Rad Cat or Feline's Pride. They are all meat without any carbs or veggies, etc.
 
Petie came out again at 9 and he ate so we gave him his shot. I feel so bad - he just wants to come out and hang with us and we keep shoving food down his throat! I can't wait til we work this all out.

I have tried sooo many different kinds. But thanks for that! I got some venison today and he seems to like that. But at first he was licking the beef - I guess I gave him too much cuz now he sniffs it and leaves it.

I would LOVE it if Petie ate raw. Or even homemade! I have cooked burgers, tried to get him to eat raw hamburger. I also bought ham today - haven't tried that yet. I also tried roast beef. I haven't tried raw chicken though. Will try that! He is one of the most finnicky cats ever. Sigh....
 
Has anyone ever tried to give their cat eggs? Do they like them? My mom suggested I cook up some eggs. But Petie doesn't like food that is warm or cold. Just room temp.
 
I also wonder, why can't I just give him the dehyrdated chicken or beef as a meal? Isn't that good? Or is it because there is no moisture?
 
It doesn't have the proper nutrients a cat eats. When a cat kills something and eats it, they eat pretty much the whole thing, bones, feathers, and sometimes even feet. The "by-products" contain some essential nutrients for cats, so if you're making your own cat food, you need to include raw bone or a "raw food" supplement that you can buy (if you don't have a meat grinder that can handle bones).
 
Right! You guys make excellent points. I plan to make my own food eventually. But at this point, I don't think Petie knows that the mushy stuff is actually food. And he LOVES his dry stuff. I will get him off of it, though. I am committed. Even though it seems like one of the hardest things I have ever done!
 
Is ham ok for him? He absolutely LOVES ham. The holistic pet store told me that hamburger was good, so I am guessing ham is too? Going to cook some chicken next and see if he will eat that. And when you say raw chicken, do you mean chicken breast?
 
JackieVendetti said:
Is ham ok for him? He absolutely LOVES ham. The holistic pet store told me that hamburger was good, so I am guessing ham is too? Going to cook some chicken next and see if he will eat that. And when you say raw chicken, do you mean chicken breast?
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I don't think ham is good for cats. I had a vet tell me many years ago don't feed ham, it was hard for cats to digest. Hamburger is okay, it's beef.

As for the raw chicken, it can be chicken breast or thighs, I think the thighs (according to my cats) are more flavorful though. And they have more calories, as they are fattier. Make sure no bones though. Good luck!
 
I just found this concerning ham-

"Ham is very high in a number of sodium salts - sodium chloride (ordinary table salt), plus sodium nitrate &/or nitrite. Ham often has smoke flavouring, sugar & other chemicals added. All of these can upset a cat's digestion & if eaten often can even cause pancreatitis in cats."

I know he likes it, but I would say ham is a no-no.
 
Sigh. Of course - the one meat he loves to eat. Ok, chicken thighs. I wonder how you cook it? It's really funny with all of this, because I am a vegetarian and have never handled this much meat!
 
JackieVendetti said:
Sigh. Of course - the one meat he loves to eat. Ok, chicken thighs. I wonder how you cook it? It's really funny with all of this, because I am a vegetarian and have never handled this much meat!
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You can just cut it up in little pieces and try to give him the chicken thighs raw. As for cooking it, I am not sure, I suppose you could boil it. I don't know, I am a vegetarian also! And I make Katie's food, so I have to grind chicken, chicken liver, yuck.........oh..that's something else you could try, some chicken liver.

Chicken or liver alone is not balanced obviously, but you got to get him to eat.
 
Oh that is so funny that we are both vegetarians making all this meat for our little kitties. I even made some for my meat-eating fiance the other day because I think he might have been getting jealous of all the "meat" attention I've been paying the cat.

Ok - will try and boil it. I will offer it to him raw first and I will cook some, to offer it both ways. Yeah, these are just little feedings between the canned/dry cat food at this point. Just to get him used to all these different foods.

My eventual goal is to make my own in combination with giving him the beautiful foods they make at the holistic store - all people grade food with all the proper nutrients. But I have a feeling that is going to take a while for this finnicky kitty. I cannot wait until he will eat all good food.
 
I was just rereading your posts...Is he still eating his dry food okay? If you are just trying to wean him off the dry food, and he still wants it, don't withhold the dry completely, because he has to eat something or risk developing Feline hepatic lipidosis, and you don't want that. He HAS to eat. Weaning them off dry takes time usually.
I know it's frustrating and difficult, but you'll get through this!
 
thank you for re-reading! i hope i don't miss anything. he is absolutely still getting the dry food. i put his dry food on every dish of wet food and 2-3 times a day i give him a separate bowl AFTER the wet food dish. he usually eats about 2-3 teaspoons at a time of the dry food - which is what he has always done. I wish he would just gulp it all down so I didn't have to keep putting food out, but that's an issue we hope to deal with gradually. At least the dry food isn't down all day and all night.
i am giving him Taste of the Wild dry food mixed in with the hill m/d dry until the Young Again dry food comes in the mail.
 
KPassa said:
The great thing with Lantus is that the cat doesn't have to eat at shot time. With Lantus, it's more important for cats to eat around halfway between cycles (about 4-7 hours after a shot) than it is for them to eat before their shot. As long as he's eating at some point throughout the day and as long as his BGs are high enough (over 200), you can give him his shot
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I just wanted to be sure you saw this remark from KPassa. We are shooting you a lot of information so some can get lost in the clouds. The reason I mention it is because I thought I saw a post from you after this comment saying that you are not shooting because he is not eating at shoot time. Maybe I read that wrong but I wanted to be sure.

I am encouraged by his liking chicken thigh meat - mine prefer it. That's a great start and I like your tenacity.

I've been feeding the raw recipe since February and my last holdout just started eating the raw last week. I guess she finally figured out that all her old favorite foods just weren't coming back. It only took six months. She gets parmesan on top, while another civvie gets Fortiflora on top.
 
Thank you for re-reading! There is soo much info coming at me, so I appreciate you reaching out again. Well, I've had 2 different vets say that it's important that he eats around shot time, so I would be nervous to give him his shot if he hasn't eaten at this point in time. We had that problem over the weekend, of him not eating at shot time, but haven't had it since. 2 diff vets also said that if we stay within 2-3 hours of shot time, we're good. So far we haven't varied more than an hour and a half at each shot time and he's eaten at least 2-3 teaspoons and more at each shot time.

I hope hope hope to get more relaxed in all of this and go with the advice of not having to feed him at shot time - I think when I can see his glucose level that will make me feel better.

Haven't tried the chicken yet, but I plan to go out and get it today and cook it for this afternoon. I was just thinking on baking it? I'm not 100% sure. I also have the fortiflora on the way - can't wait for that!!

At this time, Petie is eating a combo of Taste of the Wild dry, HIll m/d dry, Wellness Core canned, Abady canned for cats and kittens, Purina d/m canned, Wild calling canned and I tried to get him to eat the really nice home made food from the holistic pet store but he ran away from that. I am also having to sprinkle either dehydrated chicken, dehydrated beef or lamb lung on his food to make him eat the wet food. There is no problem with the dry, of course, he eats that fine, but I really am trying to encourage the wet as much as possible. I give him a bowl of the dry 2-3 times a day, only after he either turns his nose up or eats some of his wet (with the dry on top). The parmesan was a no-go. I got a turned up nose and a walk away!

I wonder how fast can his glucose can drop? The doctor said if he is lethargic and not himself to not give him his shot and to call her. I am also going out to get the non-absorbent litter to start doing the ketone sticks every other day. But Petie is the best I have seen him in a long time. Bright and happy and moving around a lot - even though he is recovering from an injury - he had a cast on his foot for 3 weeks because he got under my fiance's feet and he stepped on the poor kitty. I attached a picture But I am not sure you can see it.
 
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