New to group - Danny&Nelson in Sydney.

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Danny&Nelson

Danny&Nelson

Member Since 2012
Hi ... i've been told by ppl in the main forum that i should start posting here. Quick info, Nelson my 16 y.o. burmese got very sick overnight approx 2 wks ago after just being a *bit* off the 12 hours previous to that. he really went right off a cliff and i took him to the vet as quickly as i could, with DKA as it turned out (a term i was unaware of at the time! .. feline diab never occurred to me!), he was there for 6 days on a fluid drip and for the first 3 was a very sorry creature. I visited daily after that and got him home on the 6th day (on 2U every 12h), piled high with needles, strips, lantus etc. and i'd bought an Accu Check Performa glucometer (same one my vet uses) for home testing. things were sort of ok for a couple days although he did spike into the low 30s (i hope my SS conversion works ok now) on a couple of PS's. then at 4 am on the 30th i got 2 readings that just said 'hi', which the manual told me was outside what the meter could read, so i panicked and took him off to the 24h vet hosp at Sydney University (which turned out to be absurdly expensive but leaving that aside, they *did* give him wonderful and detailed care/testing). he was at 37 on arrival there. they had him on short acting insulin in order to more closely monitor and make adjustments. and yesterday, after 3 days there, i got him home, now on 3U glargine every 12 hrs, and if you look at his SS he's responded pretty well! i'm happy so far .. was shocked in a good way to see the 4.1 last night so i tested an hour later and got 4.3 so at least it didn't look like it was going too low. today his amps was 17, so i'm hoping that doesn't mean his nadir will go too low at +4, +5, +6 but we'll see. anyway, with the help of ppl here and my vets, my knowledge of FD has escalated from 0 to well, a lot, in 2 weeks flat! and of course i'm *so* happy to have nelson home and seemingly well and purring after twice thinking i might lose him within 2 weeks. oh and i haven't even had time to peruse the Lantus TR protocol but i will. apparently this is not an impediment to posting here. danny.
 
Hi Danny and Nelson. Welcome :mrgreen: Those were some nice BG numbers last night.
 
Hi Danny and Neslon - Welcome to LantusLand...the best place ever!! The knowledge and support in this group is astounding...please ask as many questions as you need, and someone will know the answers. It sounds like you're off to a great start!

Again, welcome!!

Amy
 
Welcome!

Glad you made it over to Lantus Land!

A question:
1. What kind of food does Nelson eat? Wet/Dry/Is it low carb?

I would say that almost everyone here feeds a low carb/high protein wet food. It is a HUGE help to regulating the sugars.

He seems to have responded pretty well to the insulin last night...hopefully you have a great day today!

Good job on getting the spreadsheet up and running too!

Tanya and Elie
 
Welcome to Lantus Land!!

Great job getting started with home testing and having your spreadsheet up and running. You may want to take some time to read the starred, sticky notes at the top of the Board.

The people here are very generous with their time and information. Please let us know how we can help.
 
Welcome, Danny&Nelson!
Nelson's story is pretty exciting!! I'm glad that things are calming down and that you have found this board. Everyone here wants the best for your kitty. You will have lots of questions. All will be good questions, so don't be afraid to ask.

Ella & Rusty
 
Hi Danny,

Nice to see you over here :-D and very nice to see Nelson having some normal cat numbers :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You're going to want to talk in the US numbers over here or I'm about the only one that's going to understand you :lol: Most people here post their numbers daily with the subject line like this for Nelson's PM cycle last night- 03/03 Nelson PMPS 493 +4 133 +5 74 +6 77. Todays condo for Nelson would start out 04/03 (no that wasn't a mistake they do the dates backwards around here - another Americanism - and we are always in the future because we are special ;-) ) Nelson PMPS 320.

Then you can edit the subject line in your original post as you go along throughout the day/night to add the new numbers. This way people can see at a glance what is happening with Nelson. We post one condo per day per cat. If you have any emergencies, for eg very low numbers you add the 911 icon to the subject line (again on your original post as that's the only subject line that can be seen from the board view) for immediate attention.

ETA: if you have a question you can add the ? icon to the subject line of your original post

How many cycles of 3U has Nelson been on including at the vets? A cycle follows each injection, i.e. there are two cycles per day.

Here is your link from health so that people can see Nelson's history http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=67008
 

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Hi Danny! Welcome to you and Nelson!
You two have certainly been through an awful lot recently.....I am so happy that things are going well for you now. So glad you are here!! :mrgreen:
 
glad to see you made it over!

just fyi - take a look at the yellow starred stickies at the top of the lantus forum page, especially the one on Tight Regulation Protocol. on that page, there is a link to the Start Low Go Slow protocol. as long as Nelson is eating dry food, he needs to follow the SLGS protocol rather than the TR protocol. we can help you with both.

there's an incredible amount of experience here, including cats who have survived DKA. ask away.

welcome!
 
Well his numbers are just bizarre today, after last night's great ones (did i do a fur shot? i dont think so). if the shot was ok, he had a pretty early drop and now its spiking up in the 5th, 6th, 7th hour, he'll be out of the range of my meter soon i'm sure. not panicking. he seems ok so far. i might give the next shot a half hr early and see how things go overnight. if he gets ketoacidotic its off to the vet again for fluids ... danny
 
it's not a surprise, danny. did you see on your other thread that i talked about how you could expect a bounce? this is expected - it's from him hitting the lower range last night. it will clear, but it can take up to 3 days.


julie & punkin said:
it is very likely that he will "bounce" from having dropped into a range that his body has become unaccustomed to. if he does, his numbers will go high for up to 3 days and stay there. do not increase his insulin during that time. bouncing is a normal phenomena (also called rebound) that will clear and he will drop back down into this range of numbers again.
Click to expand...

great job on getting the spreadsheet fixed. it's working! yay!
 
Welcome to Lantus Land Danny and Nelson!

We're so glad you're here and Nelson is improving. Please be sure to continue to check him for ketones.

Please let us know your questions...we are here to help.
 
Good grief i had to go to 4 pharmacists to find one with Ketostix. Just tested in a nice big stream from Nelson and it was zero! phew. he's due for another inj in an hour or so, still eating and drinking normally. the vet just said on the ph that as long as he's drinking and eating and seeming relatively normal apart from some extra thirst, then don't panic. I'm not panicking! :) a week ago i would have been. i'm not even going to bother doing a pmps test next hour, if it was 32 a few hrs ago its def above the meter's range now. this is def quite a bounce julie, i'll have to hold on for the next couple days ... danny.
 
Vyktors Mum said:
You're going to want to talk in the US numbers over here or I'm about the only one that's going to understand you :lol: Most people here post their numbers daily with the subject line like this for Nelson's PM cycle last night- 03/03 Nelson PMPS 493 +4 133 +5 74 +6 77. Todays condo for Nelson would start out 04/03 (no that wasn't a mistake they do the dates backwards around here - another Americanism - and we are always in the future because we are special ;-) ) Nelson PMPS 320.
Click to expand...

ok, got it. actually, being a dual australian/u.s. citizen i'm aware of that back to front date thing they do ... who ever thought it was a good idea to put the month first, and *then* the day?! makes no sense. go from smallest to biggest: dd/mm/year. hello?! whatever :)

Vyktors Mum said:
Then you can edit the subject line in your original post as you go along throughout the day/night to add the new numbers. This way people can see at a glance what is happening with Nelson. We post one condo per day per cat. If you have any emergencies, for eg very low numbers you add the 911 icon to the subject line (again on your original post as that's the only subject line that can be seen from the board view) for immediate attention.
Click to expand...

can i get a definition of 'condo'? is it just one update, with a possibly changing subject line?

Vyktors Mum said:
How many cycles of 3U has Nelson been on including at the vets? A cycle follows each injection, i.e. there are two cycles per day.
Click to expand...

he's had 4 so far, the one i'm about to give him is the 5th. danny.
 
hi tanya
thebigfuzz said:
A question:
1. What kind of food does Nelson eat? Wet/Dry/Is it low carb?
I would say that almost everyone here feeds a low carb/high protein wet food. It is a HUGE help to regulating the sugars.
Click to expand...

Well, this has been quite the question. the original local vet nelson was at for 6 days during the initial emergency DKA situation sent him home with me along with a big bag of dry prescription diabetic cat food (hills m/d), because he wasn't eating the canned, but he loved the dry and according to the website it's 15% carb. but of course many people here are v adamant that even this food is inappropriate. i did ask both vets (my local and the emergency hosp he just got out of yesterday afternoon) and (people won't like this) they both said "don't listen to people on online forums!" (don't blame me, i didn't say it, they did! :) i tend to be a very scientifically minded person and if someone has made veterinary science their profession i tend to think they know what they're talking about, the same as i would trust my dr with my own medical issues, not that i don't do a lot of my own research. but i also respect the wealth of personal experience on a board like this. so i have to take them both in. right now, i feel that it's ok for a certain portion of nelson's diet (although i'm going to lower that portion somewhat) to be the 15% carb m/d. i guess others may think thats terrible but i dont want to get into FD diet wars. i'm stepping up canned fish pieces, tuna and chicken breast meat, all of which he loves as well. its obviously important to me that he keeps eating and having a smallish percentage of his diet consisting of something which has a small 15% carb content seems reasonable. danny.
 
Condo is what we call the daily thread for our cats (because it's their home and most of us live here :lol: ). Yes we do one condo a day with a changing subject line but you can post replies to your own condo to add new information/ask new questions as many times as you like. We do one per day to make it easier to keep track of all the relevant info. We also link each days post to the previous post. You do that by clicking on the URL button at the top of the message box and pasting the address line in between the two brackets.

Tee hee I agree about the date issue but we are outnumbered bigtime!

15% carbs is higher than most people like to feed and I do encourage you to do your own further research about the carb issue. Vets will generally only recommend products that are on their shelves. While you are still feeding dry food it is helpful to others to add that info to your signature so that people know you aren't following the TR protocol and adjust their advice accordingly.

My old vet also told me not to listen to online forums and I was hesitant not to follow his 'professional' advice but following his advice nearly cost Vyktor his life (DKA). Vyktor's new vet understands that I am not a fool and that I have done my research (not just here) and know what I'm talking about, although my (the forums) approach is different to what they're used to they now agree that I should just keep doing what I'm doing because it is working well (they were also very keen on a prescription diabetic diet to start off with). As you learn more you will feel more confident making your own informed choices even if that is different from what your vet advises. I encourage you to keep doing your own research and asking questions - you can never have too much knowledge - although it can be a little difficult to absorb all at once :lol:
 
I would encourage your skepticism and applaud you for doing your own research. And here's the big, "However..." I think a vet has a next to impossible job. Unlike an MD, a vet has the daunting task of having to know about every disease in a huge number of species. Unless you live near a vet school or a large city, it's unlikely that there are vets who specialize in areas (e.g., a board certified veterinary cardiologist, dentist, etc.) at your disposal. Diabetes probably involved 1 or 2 lectures that a vet has received during his/her training. Nutrition may have been about a 5 min. talk other than information that has been provided by pet food companies. In some cases, companies like Hill's, when they first came on the market, were leaders and were providing a high quality food. Since the company was sold, the quality of the food has declined. Cats are obligate carnivores. Their dietary requirements involve a high quality source of protein -- muscle meat vs. animal by-products. They also do not typically drink a great deal. They rely on their food sources for water and dry just doesn't provide moisture.

To widen your research, let me suggest you take a look at this website that is written by a vet, Lisa Pierson, DVM, and provides a lengthy discussion of feline nutrition. Dr. Pierson discusses dry vs. canned food, the importance of nutrition in various feline illnesses such as diabetes, feline obesity, and the myths associated with dry food.

I had a similar discussion with my vet regarding food. Once she understood that I had the knowledge regarding food and that a low carb diet was going to be better for my cat and that the M/D she was recommending was higher in carbs than what I could buy commercially, she was OK with my feeding Gabby Wellness. What I pointed out was that I was feeding substantially lower carbs in a higher quality, human grade food, at a lower cost than the prescription food. (I would also point out that for many vets, selling you prescription food is a great source of profit for their practice.)

If you follow some of the cats here for a while, what you will begin to see is that for many people, once they eliminate dry food and higher carbs, it's much easier for them to regulate their cat's diabetes. Also, if you want to follow the Tight Regulation Protocol, it is really necessary that you transition Nelson to a low carb (under 10%), canned food diet. If you want to see the research on the TR protocol, or share the journal article with your vet, I've attached the article.
 

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Probable fur shot - what to do?

Hi, Nelson has been doing quite well lately, his numbers coming down over the last 10 days, the vet was fairly happy with how it's all going. I just gave him his 5.30 pm shot though and although it seemed to have gone in right, there was some moisture on my hand and i felt around in the fur and there was some more there, i wasn't sure how much went in and how much was released maybe as the needle was being withdrawn. anyway i just tested him at 7.30 pm and his numbers have gone UP since the amps, 12.4 to 21.4 ... i've never seen them go up 2 hours after a shot before so it appears it was a fur shot. what should i do? just wait and give the next one a bit early? or is it ok to give him a proper one now and match the time for the next one? any ideas? thanks. danny.
 
Hi Danny. It's good to see you.
Fur shots happen, and it is impossible to know how much went in and how much if any do not. Do NOT give him any more insulin for this cycle. You'll just have to wait it out. If he continues to rise, you can give him his morning shot a little early (up to one hour) if his numbers are high enough (like over 300 in us numbers) and your shot schedule will allow the time change (as you will then need to shot 12 hours from that shot) and you will be around to monitor him (remember, an early shot equals a dose increase).
The wet fur could have been a drop of insulin left on the outside of the syringe or he needle, and not from the measured dose. Just wait it out.
Let me know if I am not making sense, as I just woke up :)
 
hi dyana ... well in the meantime i called the 24 hr vet hospital at sydney university (where he spent some time 2 wks ago) and told them the whole situation (there was actually a reasonable amount of liquid on my palm and in his fur, so seemed like quite a bit more than a drop). In U.S. numbers he'd gone from 223 pre shot to 385 two hours later. They ok'd another shot, which i just did, and will monitor closely the next 6-8 hrs. it really seems like most of it just missed. first time its happened, oh well, part of my learning curve :) danny
 
Just to let you know, we do not recommend giving another shot, after a possible partial fur shot.
You do not know how much went in the first time, so please do watch him carefully.
Calling your vet and following his advice is fine, even though it's not what we would advise. Just watch him carefully.
And, his next shot will now be due 12 hours after the last shot you just gave him, so your shot schedule will be off.
If you need help slowly adjusting it back to your normal shot schedule, please let me know, and I will help you.
Also, I think the shed will now be affected by the double bit of insulin, so he may have longer duration for this cycle.
 
I agree with Dyana. We really discourage a second shot for safety reasons. There are certainly cycles where numbers go up, even when it's not a fur shot. However, like Dyana noted, you have no way of knowing how much insulin may have gotten in. Please keep an eye on Nelson's numbers.
 
So far so good:

pmps (in u.s. numbers) 223
followed by fur shot
then +2 (385)
proper shot
new +2 (360)
+4 (243)
+5 (247)
 
Hi Danny!
Welcome to Lantus Land!

Re dry food ... let me share my experience... My cat Kitty was diagnosed with diabetes last December. He has eaten dry food for all of his life, and once diagnosed, vets also told me that he can continue to eat dry food, preferably Hills MD or similar for diabetic cats. I continued to feed him Hills MD dry after starting the insulin. I initially had Caninsulin but since the BGs remained high, we switched to Lantus in February. There was no remarkable progress with Kitty's BGs when he was still eating dry food. With the advise from other LL members and other research I did, I eventually converted Kitty to eat wet food only (it was quite a frustrating process, but worth it!). It appeared that Kitty is highly sensitive to carbs, so in 11 days he went from 1.5u BID insulin to zero! Now he has been without insulin for nearly 4 weeks and is doing just great. After the switch to wet food, combined with healing of his pancreas, it looks like he has gotten 5 years younger - lost weight (in a good way), has very shiny and nice coat and is much more active than before. So, with this experience I HIGHLY recommend going to wet food only. I was sceptical about it in the beginning, but the impact has been just unbelievable. ;-)

Good luck!

- Mia

p.s. the other twist in Kitty's story is that we live in Moscow where I am an expat. I do not speak Russian so it has been quite interesting to learn how to treat a diabetic cat. Since I have not had an easy contact with a local vet, people here at Lantus Land have saved us! You can trust the advise here! :-D
 
Hi Mia. Moscow .. now that's exotic! I can imagine negotiating veterinary treatment for a diabetic cat would be quite a challenge there. Thank goodness things are going well for Kitty. I'm afraid i'm a bit of a chronic worrier, and everything was so chaotic and scary at the beginning (only 3 wks ago! seems like more) for Nelson and I, and i wanted to see instant great results, but now looking at his numbers i can see that there's a steady trend down towards a more normal range. as people say, you have to go through ups and downs for the first 4-6 wks. patience can be hard to come by! but his coat is all glossy again and his eyes are bright and he's eating and making just as much noise as he ever did, so my worrying is dissipating, thankfully.

as for the dry/wet issue, my view is that wet or dry is not the point. if food were preferable for a diabetic cat simply because it was wet rather than dry you could take a bowl of any old nasty cheap supermarket dry cat food and dump a cup of water into it and mush it up, and voila, it's wet! wet or dry is obviously not the point, the point is: what is the content? if, for instance, i feed nelson a diet which consists of 50% dry m/d, which he likes, and 50% all the other (almost entirely protein) things he likes .. fish pieces without the jelly, raw lean mince, tuna, chicken without the skin etc., since dry m/d is 15% carb that would mean that roughly 7.5% of his total diet is carbs, which is apparently within the desirable range on this board. and yet i'm sure there are people who would say it's still bad to feed *any* dry, even if the upshot is that less than 10% of his diet is carbs. maybe someone can explain it but it makes no sense to me.

danny
 
Hi Danny (& Nelson) & welcome!

I just wanted to welcome you mainly but also wanted to show you something that might help you see the difference in wet and dry. If you click on Racci's ss you will see much higher numbers for April 10, starting on April 9. Those are dry DM numbers. Racci ate dry food all her life (she's over 15) I just managed to get her switched to Wellness wet food. She's extremely picky and unfortunately her order of food came in bad so I had nothing that she would eat except the dry until I could get to the store. I think it's pretty dramatic what the dry food did to her bg and as soon as she went back on the wet food her bg went back down.

My experience with Racci is that she is very sensitive. Anything out of the ordinary like stress can send her numbers up but when she started lantus she was using 5u bid and often in the 300's. Now she is on 3.5u and almost always in normal numbers. I find that feeding small amounts of watered down wet food 4-5 times a day helps her pancreas and liver by letting it not work so hard to get the same amount of calories that she needs and keeps her in the normal numbers. The wetness seems to have a lot to do with it. Just my opinion but it's bearing out for Racci. Thought I'd mention it.

I totally understand your view. I was their all this time until I tried this. :smile:

I also wanted to say that you are doing a great job with Nelson. He has wonderful numbers for a newbie and having gone through so much. Don't panic when you see pink numbers. They all get them sometimes. Lots of things can affect them from simple stress, to constipation. He's doing just fine.

Melanie & Racci
 
Welcome Danny & Nelson! I'm happy you've joined us.

On the importance of feeding wet food to Nelson, the issue is not the percent of carbs in Nelson's diet on a daily basis; it's the percent of carbs in a particular food that concerns us. The carbs given to him in any one meal or snack have an immediate effect on his BG, which is why we feed our cats low-carb food and only give them high-carb food if their BG drops too low -- because it raises the BG. It's also why the pre-shot BG is taken when kitty hasn't eaten for at least two hours -- you want a pretest number that isn't influenced by food. Make sense?
 
as for the dry/wet issue, my view is that wet or dry is not the point. if food were preferable for a diabetic cat simply because it was wet rather than dry you could take a bowl of any old nasty cheap supermarket dry cat food and dump a cup of water into it and mush it up, and voila, it's wet! wet or dry is obviously not the point, the point is: what is the content? if, for instance, i feed nelson a diet which consists of 50% dry m/d, which he likes, and 50% all the other (almost entirely protein) things he likes .. fish pieces without the jelly, raw lean mince, tuna, chicken without the skin etc., since dry m/d is 15% carb that would mean that roughly 7.5% of his total diet is carbs, which is apparently within the desirable range on this board. and yet i'm sure there are people who would say it's still bad to feed *any* dry, even if the upshot is that less than 10% of his diet is carbs. maybe someone can explain it but it makes no sense to me.
Click to expand...

Dry food is processed differently than wet food. It's not just the moisture content it's also the formulation of the pellets. Dry food stays in the blood system longer than wet food therefore your cat has higher blood glucose levels for an extended period of time than a cat that eats only wet food.

As for the "as long as I feed 50% dry and 50% no carb food" if that were the case then all a diabetic person has to do is eat all the cake, ice cream and pasta they want as long as they balance that out with a steak or two every day ;-) We know this is not the case. Carbs turn in to sugar and sugar is what influences blood glucose levels. When you feed dry food you give your cat a big hit of carbs that stays in their system longer and no amount of 0% carb is going to "dilute" that.

I've only seen one dry diet that is lower than 10% carbs and I feed my civvie cats that. My diabetic cat Cini eats canned only because he needs lower carbs than 10%.

Do this, buy some low carb wet food (10% or lower carbs), transition off the dry and feed that for a week along with the lean raw diet you are feeding and see what happens to your kitty's blood glucose levels. What can it hurt?


ETA: I was a veterinary technician for 15 years. I only fed Hills diets to my pets. I was strong believer that whatever the ailment, Hills had a "letter" diet to manage it. When Cini was diagnosed with Feline Diabetes in 2009, I fed Hill's D/M dry exclusively. His BG levels dropped from the 600's to the 400's by just doing that. Then, 2yrs later, when Cini had his throat surgery and I could no longer feed him solid food, I switched to Purina M/D canned and his BG levels dropped another 100 points. It is really worth it to explore the lowest carb content you can have available for your cat. I guarantee you will notice a difference.
 
The thing with Nelson though, is that i'm here really most of the time and i literally feed him about 12 meals a day, smallish, maybe every hour and a half (if i go out to the movies or out to dinner for a couple of hours or more i leave a slightly larger one) and for many years now his diet has been almost entirely protein (in recent years with a small amount of hills k/d and now m/d). each one of these mini meals is really a few bites of something else (all the other high protein things i've listed) and a small sprinkling of m/d. each meal logically then would be less than 10% carb since the m/d is total 15%. i suspect that nelson's diabetes may well not be diet related at all but just idiopathic.

either way, i skipped a dose yesterday because his BG was 4.5 (81 U.S.) just before he was due for his shot, i had to go to sleep 2 hours or so after that (i left some food for him to nibble on while i slept as usual) and by the time i got up he was very high (29.2 or 526) so i gave him a shot a little early and called the vet hosp and she asked me to do a curve overnight tonight, which i've just finished, and his BG is still falling +11 and AMPS (ie half an hour ago), not dangerously low, but still falling (184 u.s.) Fortunately i can delay the injection a couple of hours and get back to the timing we were using for the first 2 weeks until things got shifted a bit by a fur shot and other stuff. If he's still falling in 2 hours i may well skip another shot as much as i hate to do it (i'm always sleep deprived so i need to try and get my 7-8 hours but might need to cut that short and get up and test him). if he's rising in the next 2 hours but still lowish she said a safe short term solution just for today could be just to give him 1 unit (instead of his usual 3) until the vet and i work out what to do this afternoon. anyway, i will speak to her in the afternoon and see what's what. i suspect maybe that the l-o-n-g duration of nelson's peak period on 3U means maybe a dose reduction to 2.5 or 2? although at 2 his numbers were going way too high. i'll suggest 2.5. going to listen to a calming meditation podcast! :YMSIGH:

Randa & Mookie said:
Welcome Danny & Nelson! I'm happy you've joined us.
On the importance of feeding wet food to Nelson, the issue is not the percent of carbs in Nelson's diet on a daily basis; it's the percent of carbs in a particular food that concerns us. The carbs given to him in any one meal or snack have an immediate effect on his BG, which is why we feed our cats low-carb food and only give them high-carb food if their BG drops too low -- because it raises the BG. It's also why the pre-shot BG is taken when kitty hasn't eaten for at least two hours -- you want a pretest number that isn't influenced by food. Make sense?
Click to expand...
 
Welcome to Lantus Land Danny & Nelson! You will find much help here, we are a family,
Any questions any problems there is usually someone around here to help..Read the Stickys on the top
of the Page!! They explain a lot! Glad you made it here--Much help & info is coming your way!
 
Another welcome to LantusLand. :-D We have a saying here "shoot low to stay low" While you may feel that Nelson is on too high a dose, he still isn't even often down into normal numbers yet and usually we don't reduce until a cat drops below the normal range or has been constantly there for a week. Many vets get scared if a cat is below 200 because they are unused to owners taking the care to test and monitor their pets. Usually we don't recommend shooting below 150 until you have plenty of data. After you get to know his response to insulin better, you will feel confident shooting lower numbers. Although it takes some getting used to many of us will give insulin in the 50s.

If you and you vet do decide he needs a reduction, don't take it down too quickly. We usually recommend .25u reductions so as not to miss the right dose. W/ the small amounts of insulin we are giving, a half unit is a big jump.

On the food question, is the dry the only "cat food" Nelson is getting? Plain meat is lacking in many vitamins and minerals which cats need. No more than 15% of a cat's diet should be from supplemental meat, otherwise we can start to see vitamin deficiency problems. Please read Dr. Lisa's page on nutrition and also Max's House.

They both explain the differences in composition between wet foods and dry, that is where the real difference lies. Dry food is also hard on a cat's kidneys as they do not drink enough to keep the wastes flushed out of the kidneys. Feline diabetes and kidney failure were virtually unheard of before we started feeding dry kibble.

The prescription foods also tend to be lower quality ingredients than the better brands of canned foods. Just read the ingredients! There is no muscle meat in a food intended for an animal which has evolved as a pure carnivore!
Hill's Prescription Diet MD (Dry- copied from their website)
Ingredients
Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Pork Protein Isolate, Powdered Cellulose, Brewers Rice, Whole Grain Corn, Dried Egg Product, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, L-Lysine, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, DL-Methionine, Iodized Salt, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta Carotene, Rosemary Extract.
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One thing that really made me stop was item 5: powdered cellulose. What could that be? if it was an conventional source of dietary fiber (which cats don't need anyway!) I am sure they would be proud to list it as such. So what is this low cost, readily available "powdered cellulose"? As a cabinet maker I know what I immediately thought of and it is not what I want to feed my cat. Let alone pay a premium price for.
 
And then lets compare Hill's Dry to EVO 95% Chicken and Turkey formula canned (which is 0% carbs) -

Chicken,Chicken Broth,Turkey,Natural Flavor,Carrageenan, Minerals (Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Potassium Iodide),Guar Gum,Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin),Choline Chloride, Herring Oil,Salt,Potassium Chloride,Sodium Ascorbate (Source of Vitamin C),Taurine,Sunflower Oil, Sodium Phosphate,Beta Carotene
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Or even Fancy Feast Turkey and Giblets Feast (Classic) canned which is very low carb, I think less than 5% -

Turkey, liver, meat by-products, turkey broth, poultry giblets, artificial and natural flavors, guar gum, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, magnesium sulfate, taurine, zinc sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide.
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Or, if you prefer to compare dry foods, here's a better quality to feed. EVO Chicken and Turkey formula Cat and Kitten Dry (8% carbs ) -

Turkey,Chicken Meal,Chicken,Herring Meal,Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Peas, Eggs,Turkey Meal,Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Apples, Carrots,Cranberries, Herring Oil,Tomatoes, Pumpkin, Dried Chicory Root, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Taurine, DL-Methionine, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Betaine Hydrochloride, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid), Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product)
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Wow! Which one do you want for dinner? The one with Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat? Or the ones with actual real meats as the main ingredient?
 
danny, i know you think we're obsessive about the all low-carb canned food. it's because we've seen over and over and over and over again that it makes a HUGE difference in the cat's blood sugar. it's simply experience - and we're trying to share it with you.
 
I understand, and i may well try it very soon, if i can find some decent canned food either at my supermarket or elsewhere that specifies carbs, quickly looked at one brand the other day and it had all sorts of info on ingredients but not total % carb! will look again soon. there's one brand someone i know recommends but its very expensive. danny.

julie & punkin said:
danny, i know you think we're obsessive about the all low-carb canned food. it's because we've seen over and over and over and over again that it makes a HUGE difference in the cat's blood sugar. it's simply experience - and we're trying to share it with you.
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Vyktor's Mum is in Australia too, I checked Vyktor's profile and Serryn feeds him
Brand Name: Ziwipeak Formula: Lamb is his favourite but is also given the venison
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You can contact her for more information. Sorry to be so insistent, but it does make a difference. And, I've had one cat die from CRF and another who is FD for two years now, both were fed that company's food their whole lives.
 
Danny&Nelson said:
I understand, and i may well try it very soon, if i can find some decent canned food either at my supermarket or elsewhere that specifies carbs, quickly looked at one brand the other day and it had all sorts of info on ingredients but not total % carb! will look again soon. there's one brand someone i know recommends but its very expensive. danny.
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I think the Ziwipeak might be the expensive culprit here :lol: from the supermarket shelf you can feed Natures Gift and the Whiskas loaf varieties (only the loaf varieties), Ultimates is also an option but all their flavours contain fish which should only be given once or twice a week.
 
Great, thx for the brand suggestions. Why fish only a couple of times a week? danny

Vyktors Mum said:
Danny&Nelson said:
I understand, and i may well try it very soon, if i can find some decent canned food either at my supermarket or elsewhere that specifies carbs, quickly looked at one brand the other day and it had all sorts of info on ingredients but not total % carb! will look again soon. there's one brand someone i know recommends but its very expensive. danny.
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I think the Ziwipeak might be the expensive culprit here :lol: from the supermarket shelf you can feed Natures Gift and the Whiskas loaf varieties (only the loaf varieties), Ultimates is also an option but all their flavours contain fish which should only be given once or twice a week.
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For male cats in particular, fish can contribute to the development of crystals. In addition, given some of the contaminants in fish, especially those fish that are higher on the food chain, it can have a negative long-term effect on a cat.
 
Hi Danny,

Both my kitties love the raw kangaroo meat. Not indigenous to Canada, but apparently you have enough of it there that it's actually cheaper for me than local meats like buffalo or venison. Kangaroo is a low fat meat and good for cats who have food allergies. You'll have to look at where you get the raw meat from - you may need to add some organ meats and possibly bone powder for calcium. The links mentioned in previous posts talk about how to make your own raw mixture if you don't buy it already made up. The place I get raw cat food has everything already added for me. My FD cat Neko loves eating small 1-inch pieces of raw chicken neck which give her the calcium she needs. Raw poultry or rabbit products here have bone in them, but not the red meats - except as supplements.
 
Dose timing question

Yes i think the kangaroo meat is a good option. The supermarket near me sells just plain kangaroo meat fillets as pet food in those vacuum packs, i'll get some today and try it with Nelson.

Question: Nelson and i have had a messy few days, with missed shots due to low numbers, followed by very (ugh) high numbers at the end of the next cycle of course, a couple of partial fur shots (no more fur shots! i'm making sure of that!) and then a dose change. anyway, now on track till next thurs when i'll do a curve and talk w the vet again. Question is: Should you give a cat their next shot if their BG numbers at +12 (amps) are high (say, 370) but still falling? Or should you def wait until they start an upswing, i.e. delay a shot for an hour or two? Danny.
 
if it's high but still falling, it's fine to go ahead and shoot.

edited to add - it's time for you to start a new thread! this one's pretty long and old besides!!

just link this one to the new one by using the URL button above the window when you're writing a new post.
 
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