New member- the amazing mama Ember

[elainejunko]

My foster kitty Ember is a sweet and loving mama kitty. In June, someone dumped her and her three 5-week old kittens at our feral colony and she carried them down a storm drain to save them from the coyotes. I was able to fish them all out using towels and a net and then discovered they all had horrible ringworm. So I've been fostering them since then, got them through the ringworm ordeal, and two of the kittens were adopted (yay!) so I just have Ember and her son Spark. I noticed that Ember was drinking lots of water so I took her to the vet last week and here we are. Her fructosamine was 543. He started her on 1unit of vetsulin and her numbers haven't been great (lots of 400s). Plus they don't seem to follow a pattern that makes sense! She's had two AMPS days now under 200 and that seems to me like the time that would be the highest. It's scary and I just want it all to make sense so I can stop worrying that she's going to keel over at any second. I just started testing a few days ago so I don't really have enough data to see any patterns yet (I was hoping my testing skills would improve quickly so her ears aren't completely filled with holes) but I hope to do a curve soon to try to get a better handle on things. I now know that vetsulin isn't good and I should try to get the vet to prescribe one of the longer-acting insulins, so I'm hoping to ask about that at my next appointment.
I must say that testing and shooting with a kitten "helping" has definitely added to the challenge. Spark jumped up and jammed the insulin needle into the back of my finger the other day (luckily my finger wasn't on the plunger) and when I'm testing he grabs the meter by the strip and drags it off and bats around the lancet pen. I've had to start putting him in a carrier when I'm working with his mom so he doesn't mess everything up. It's stressful enough without the added complication. I'll probably look back someday and think it's cute but right now I just want to cry. Hopefully he'll get adopted soon. I thought Ember would be an easy adoption too since she's so sweet and beautiful but now I doubt her chances of adoption are very good.

 

[CORKY]

Welcome to FDMB, I couldn't help but laugh a bit at the challenge you are having with your other kitty trying to test the other, it will get better, and yes, it is a great idea to switch insulin, Vetsulin is harsh on the cat, the best insulins for a cat are Lantus and ProZinc they ae a 12 hour insulin and softer on the cat, you seem you have knowledge on feline diabetes you are testing that's a great start, also not to prick yourself, find a small sock put some rice in it to make a small ball, tie it, cut the left over sock, you use this to cup the ear, also as you test the capillaries will swell and it will be much easier, to get a pattern you should test before each shot and several time during the day, your babies are adorable, you are a good Mommie, please continue to post any concerns you may have, also it is important for a diabetic cat is the carb intake, diabetic cats need to have a wet can diet or raw between 0-10% carbs, most members give up to 5% and use Fancy Feast pates, if you are feeding kibbles please realize that the contain between 20-30% carbs, cats cannot digest carbs so the pancreas damage and more complications may occur, I free fed Corky since 8 weeks old on MeauMix,, he is now 12; 3 years ago he was diagnosed, I have another cat, so I changed them both on the same schedule, if you are feeding kibbles, please do not change foods without transitioning slowly, since it can upset their stomach as well as the BG. Let us know if you would like us to send you a Food list and if you would like us to assist your concerns and dosing. We can send you links to get you started, in the meantime on the Main menu mare sticky notes with valuable information, also if you are doing a curve, you do not need a vet for that and stress him, you can do that yourself, is just testing for 1 cycle (12 hours,) every two hours and save yourself the $$

 

[Lauren & Esse]

Those first days/weeks/months are so stressful. I'm glad you found this page so you have folks to commiserate with. I don't think I've ever cried as much as I did the first couple months.

What a wild life poor Ember has had so far! Did the vet give you any idea how old she might be? She's beautiful

By the way -- stellar job setting up your signature, spreadsheet, getting her on the right food, learning to test, etc. I can tell you're really doing your reading!

 

[Staci & Ivy]

Welcome Elaine and Ember. Your sweet kitties are adorable. Ember is a true heroine mama cat
What a story of how she saved her babies

You’re doing great and as Lauren noted, great job setting up your signature.
It helps us to help you much easier.
Hopefully if you can get her on Lantus (or Prozinc), better insulins for cats, she will do even better.

We look forward to helping you both.
Give those kitties some extra kisses from all of us

 

[Mary & Jude]

Welcome to the FDMB, Elaine and hero-mama Ember!

I'm going to take a second to jump on the "switch/ditch Vetsulin" bandwagon, and to provide you with some research, in case you need it to support your rationale for switching. As has been mentioned earlier, Vetsulin is typically an insulin given to dogs. According to the Journal of American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA), Glargine (Lantus) or Prozinc are the preferred insulin choices for cats. In the link to the journal, you'll see these guidelines about insulin specifically mentioned under "Treatment for Cats."

I had Jude on Vetsulin at the beginning of his diagnosis (because the vet didn't have any Lantus in his clinic at the time), but we switched him quickly to Lantus and began to see good results.

Good luck with Ember's treatment!

 

[elainejunko]

Those first days/weeks/months are so stressful. I'm glad you found this page so you have folks to commiserate with. I don't think I've ever cried as much as I did the first couple months.

What a wild life poor Ember has had so far! Did the vet give you any idea how old she might be? She's beautiful

By the way -- stellar job setting up your signature, spreadsheet, getting her on the right food, learning to test, etc. I can tell you're really doing your reading!

Thank you! I'm trying to read as much as I can but I'm so afraid that something will happen before I know what to do about it! It's very overwhelming. When Ember was spayed the vet thought she was around 2, but the vet that diagnosed her with diabetes last week said she might be 6 since it's unusual for 2-year old cats to get diabetes. So I'll just call her a young adult, I guess.

 

[elainejunko]

Welcome to the FDMB, Elaine and hero-mama Ember!

I'm going to take a second to jump on the "switch/ditch Vetsulin" bandwagon, and to provide you with some research, in case you need it to support your rationale for switching. As has been mentioned earlier, Vetsulin is typically an insulin given to dogs. According to the Journal of American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA), Glargine (Lantus) or Prozinc are the preferred insulin choices for cats. In the link to the journal, you'll see these guidelines about insulin specifically mentioned under "Treatment for Cats."

I had Jude on Vetsulin at the beginning of his diagnosis (because the vet didn't have any Lantus in his clinic at the time), but we switched him quickly to Lantus and began to see good results.

Good luck with Ember's treatment!

Thanks for sharing that AAHA link! The vet actually told me to check out the AAHA page when I asked for more information at my appointment, so hopefully when I ask to switch he'll be supportive. Are there any pros/cons to Lantus vs Prozinc or are they equally good choices? I suppose it depends on which one works best with each individual cat, but in general is one preferred?

 

[CORKY]

Thanks for sharing that AAHA link! The vet actually told me to check out the AAHA page when I asked for more information at my appointment, so hopefully when I ask to switch he'll be supportive. Are there any pros/cons to Lantus vs Prozinc or are they equally good choices? I suppose it depends on which one works best with each individual cat, but in general is one preferred?

Only Pros as for me Corky’s has been on ProZinc since diagnosed January 2023, just check out his SS. He is doing amazing, it’s so easy on the cats system as well as Lantus they are both just as great, I am not too familiar with the protocol for Lantus, with ProZinc is simple test, feed, shoot, I shoot Corky while he’s eating, feeding 4 meals during the day, I’m an obsessive tester. But testing at least 3 times during the day and AMPS/PMPS is good and of course both insulina are a 12 hour insulin

 

[CORKY]

And your vet should not object to switching insulin, you might want to ask or make sure he is familiar with Feline Diabetic especially because of the insulin he prescribed, a lot of vets are not familiar with FD and do not update themselves about it much, so they treat FD as it were a dog, and there is a big difference, besides, you know your cat better than your vet, do not feel intimidated on asking and requesting what’s best for him!

 

[Mary & Jude]

I think both insulins are good. I'm going to tag @Suzanne & Darcy as she is our resident Prozinc expert, and perhaps she can describe any specific differences.

 

[JL and Chip]

Are there any pros/cons to Lantus vs Prozinc or are they equally good choices?

In many cases it depends on your lifestyle, personal preference, and the cat.

I suggest you wander on over to the Prozinc forum and the Lantus forum and read the “Stickies” (yellow starred posts) to help dip your toes into the details (just don’t get overwhelmed, there’s a lot of info there!).

Some key differences between Lantus and Prozinc:

- Lantus is a depot-type insulin whereas Prozinc is more of an in-and-out insulin. What that means is that Lantus builds up in the system and the impact of each injection can carry over into the following 12-hour cycle(s). Prozinc, on the other hand, is primarily out of the system after each 12 hour cycle with no (or minimal) carryover into the next cycle.

- Lantus does best with a pretty strict 12/12 hour shot schedule, whereas Prozinc can be a bit more forgiving.

Lantus tends to be more strict on shot timing because of its depot/carryover nature. Therefore, those who have unusual work schedules and can’t strictly shoot a 12/12 hour schedule sometimes go with Prozinc.

- The concentrations (“strengths”) are different — Lantus is a U-100 insulin (100 units/ml) whereas Prozinc is U-40 (40 units/ml). When comparing prices, keep in mind, for example, that a 10ml vial of Lantus contains 1000 units of insulin whereas a 10ml vial of Prozinc contains 400 units. Also, you’ll either need to use u-40 syringes with Prozinc or use u-100 syringes with a conversion chart.

- Lantus is a human insulin so typically sold by human pharmacies (not often carried by vet clinics, at least where I live) whereas Prozinc is a pet insulin so typically sold by vet clinics/online (and not as often available in human pharmacies).

Both are good insulins. As for this message board, the Lantus forum is busier and probably has more active users daily. But you will find support here regardless of which insulin you choose.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Welcome to FDMB!!

Your description of Spark "helping" made me giggle!! One thought.... maybe testing Ember in the bathroom and shutting the door so Spark isn't able to be helpful might be a consideration.

You've gotten some good information, especially about the basics comparing Lantus to Prozinc. I was a Lantus user and despite it being quite expensive at the time Gabby was diagnosed (it was still relatively new and it wasn't available as a generic/biosimilar), I found a great deal of support here and the dosing methods were well-researched and published in a leading veterinary journal. The costs are now far more reasonable since it has been around long enough to be available as a generic/biosimilar (i.e., glargine). Chances are that your vet prescribed Vetsulin because you're fostering and it's a less expensive insulin.

Looking at Ember's spreadsheet, I suspect that what you're seeing is what we refer to as a "bounce." Ember drops into lower numbers that her body isn't used to. As a result, her liver and pancreas overreact and release a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones. This causes her blood glucose numbers to spike upward. It's annoying but not dangerous.

I'd suggest getting some tests between shot times. Vetsulin can cause numbers to drop hard and fast. Given that. you've seen some lower numbers at shot time, I'd want to be sure that Ember is in safe numbers.. We recommend getting a minimum of 4 tests daily -- your two pre-shot tests and at least one additional test during both the AM and PM cycles. It's important to know how low the dose of insulin is dropping Ember's numbers.

Just to correct some information... A cat's ears do not have a great number of blood vessels (i.e., capillaries). This is functional since if cats are fighting or in an environment where they can get their ears injured, they will bleed. However, when you continue to test, the capillaries respond by increasing -- you're building up the capillary bed. Once the capillaries build up, it's easier to get a drop of blood. We recommend a low carb diet -- less than 10% carbs -- although most members feed their cats a diet that's in the neighborhood of 5% carb. There are a very small number of dry foods that are low in carbs. However, cats have a limited thirst drive and in the wild, consume much of the moisture in their diet from live prey. This is why a canned or raw food diet is preferred along with a greater number of low carb canned foods than dry. Having more liquid in their diet is also good for kidney health. Carbohydrates do not damage the pancreas -- if they did, pretty much every human would have problems with their pancreas. The pancreas regulates carbohydrate metabolism by releasing insulin and glucagon. Cats are adapted to a high protein diet and have lower levels of digestive enzymes. They are able to digest carbohydrates but not large amounts. The lower levels of pancreatic enzymes do make cats prone to diabetes, pancreatitis, and some other conditions.