New member confused about food and progress - need community opinion!

J

jamco

Member Since 2026
Hi everyone. My 14 (and a half) year old ragamuffin x mystery breed, Arjuna, was diagnosed with diabetes last month. I found this forum while frantically searching the web for info on ear pricking for BG monitoring after many failed and stressful attempts (we got there thanks to your help!). Now that I'm on the forum, I'm seeing information about diet -- and that Royal Canin isn't so good. Oh boy. I'm a (human) nutritionist, have always been super annoyed at the opacity of cat food labelling, and super annoyed at myself for not knowing the best way to feed the cats.

Now I'm worried that the way we're starting Arjuna's treatment is foolish and that we can't change it at this stage because it'll mess up the plan the vet has / add too many variables while we try to work out the process.

Here's what's happened:
Arjuna's spreadsheet is here, but here's a bit more info:

Arjuna was on a 100% wet diet with Applaws "complete" (I'm sure it has high carbs) and Applaws pure fish before she was diagnosed with diabetes (BG 25mmol/L). We immediately changed to Royal Canin wet pouches on advice from the vet and the suggestion that we might be able to manage it with diet that way (spoiler: that did not work). I was worried we weren't giving her enough on this diet, but the vet assured me we should give her the amount of food for her current weight, even though she'd lost a lot of weight since her diabetes started. I don't think she's underweight, but she's on the slimmer side and it was definitely less food than normal. I figured it was fine since we needed to make sure she wouldn't put on too much weight.

Yesterday:
8am: Fasting BG was 34mmol/L(!) when taken by the vet. We then started Arjuna's insulin after breakfast (usual Royal Canin Diabetic wet food).
4pm: BG was 16.8mmol/L. Vet was very worried about how fast it was dropping and advised us to get dry food (Royal Canin Diabetic kibble) and give Arjuna a small meal to stop her BG dropping further.
8pm: BG was 15.1mmols/L. Vet still worried since the dry food didn't increase Arjuna's BG. Advised we give Arjuna dinner (wet and dry) with no insulin shot, and then put some a small meal across the evening in her automatic feeder for her to eat at 12am and 4:30am before her wet breakfast at 8am.

Today:
8am: BG was 20.1 before breakfast, despite having had some dry kibble at 4am. Vet advised we skip insulin today, give her dry food to snack on throughout the dry (11:30am and 3:30pm), dinner as normal (wet), and the nighttime dry food snacks again -- and to even increase the dry food snacks. She suggested we might be able to do 1 shot a day, or we may have to go down to 0.5 which would mean us using syringes and not a pen (scary!).

What do you think? Are we on the right track here? I know it's only DAY 2 so maybe this question is very premature. I'm just so worried about messing this up and missing our chance of Arjuna going into remission. Our vet seems like she knows what she's doing, but the recommendation for dry food made me a bit suspicious and, from what I've read on this forum, I'm worried she doesn't understand diet. She claimed that dry food provides a slower release of glucose, has anyone heard this before? I feel weird giving my gal dry food, especially as she's older and has had UTIs, but I'm not sure if I should add water or not, or just change her to another diet altogether.


Would you stay the course with Royal Canin for this initial period while there are lots of variables happening? Or would you change your cat's diet now?

p.s. Arjuna is the most food motivated cat you've ever met and is happy to switch food with no hesitation and rarely has digestive issues when doing so.
p.p.s. We have so much Royal Canin stocked now haha ahh...
 
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I'll also add that this morning, Arjuna was calm and satisfied after breakfast for the first time in months. Instead of leaping from her empty bowl to our breakfast table, she chilled out with her sister in the sun. So something is working.
 
Welcome to FDMB
There are some things to learn about Arjuana's nutrition, it is normal for Feline diabetes to cause weight loss, Arjuan's weight will regulate with the correct diet and once the insulin begins to take effect however, your vets' instructions on using is the Royal Cannin, is wrong, this food is just a Veterinarian Commercial food with approximately 20-30%
carbs. A diabetic cats needs a diet of wet can or raw foods between 0-10% carbs, they should feed 3-4 small meals or snacks during the day including the main meal before shot, putting 1tsp of water in every meals is also helpful,grazing is not an option, testing before each shot is important to avoid hypoglycemia and several test during the day , is important to follow the process of how the insulin is working in Arjuna's system. A non-diabetic cat glucose is between 50-120, missing a shot is not a good idea, you are using Lantus which is an excellent insulin for cats this insulin is a 12 hour insulin., so two shot are necessary to be able to regulate Arjuana missing shots can happen only if the BG is very low, and still the shot can be stalled. Most members use Fancy Feast Pate's between 0-10% carbs some feed up t 5%. Keeping a feeding schedule is important, since no food should be given 2 hours prior test-shot, the Protocol is TEST-FEED-SHOOT
Transition from high carbs to low carbs needs to be a slow process because it can upset the stomach and cause a drop in the glucose levels, the Alpha Trak is good to test, however the strips are very expensive, most members use the ReliOn Premier human meter (Walmart) very inexpensive, or any human meter, since when you are beginning to learn how to test there will be many trial and errors, and you should have plenty of strips handy. Also, if the vet recommends to do a curve on Arjuana, you can do this at home and save your money and stress on Arjuana, a curve is simply testing every two hours for one cycle (12hours) cats are very sensitive to stress and this causes their levels to get higher, this will be the case at the vet's office, which can cause an erroneous increase in dose by the vet.
below is a link on food charts, and a food calculator, use the nutrient on the label, we are looking for DRY CARB MATTER , since you do not mention where you are from, we would like you to create your signature as well, link below. Please keep asking , we are here for you .
the spreadsheet looks great :bighug:

Sticky - New? How You Can Help Us Help You!
Links to FOOD CHARTS
Carb Calculator - Felinediabetes.com
 
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You can also click on Corky's spreadsheet to get an idea feeding on schedule , what I feed and how much, when Corky was diagnosed from 16.5 lbs. (he is a very large cat,) he was weighing 8.5lbs, he gained his weigh back within 2-3 months, he is back to his regular weight 16.5lbs, so gaining weight will happen but not with high carbs, Arjuna's BG is very high, therefore the faster Arjuna gets regulated the better it will be for the pancreas to start healing, and avoid other organs to damage
 
CORKY said:
Welcome to FDMB
There are some things to learn about Arjuana's nutrition, it is normal for Feline diabetes to cause weight loss, Arjuan's weight will regulate with the correct diet and once the insulin begins to take effect however, your vets' instructions on using is the Royal Cannin, is wrong, this food is just a Veterinarian Commercial food with approximately 20-30%
carbs. A diabetic cats needs a diet of wet can or raw foods between 0-10% carbs, they should feed 3-4 small meals or snacks during the day including the main meal before shot, putting 1tsp of water in every meals is also helpful,grazing is not an option, testing before each shot is important to avoid hypoglycemia and several test during the day , is important to follow the process of how the insulin is working in Arjuna's system. A non-diabetic cat glucose is between 50-120, missing a shot is not a good idea, you are using Lantus which is an excellent insulin for cats this insulin is a 12 hour insulin., so two shot are necessary to be able to regulate Arjuana missing shots can happen only if the BG is very low, and still the shot can be stalled. Most members use Fancy Feast Pate's between 0-10% carbs some feed up t 5%. Keeping a feeding schedule is important, since no food should be given 2 hours prior test-shot, the Protocol is TEST-FEED-SHOOT
Transition from high carbs to low carbs needs to be a slow process because it can upset the stomach and cause a drop in the glucose levels, the Alpha Trak is good to test, however the strips are very expensive, most members use the ReliOn Premier human meter (Walmart) very inexpensive, or any human meter, since when you are beginning to learn how to test there will be many trial and errors, and you should have plenty of strips handy. Also, if the vet recommends to do a curve on Arjuana, you can do this at home and save your money and stress on Arjuana, a curve is simply testing every two hours for one cycle (12hours) cats are very sensitive to stress and this causes their levels to get higher, this will be the case at the vet's office, which can cause an erroneous increase in dose by the vet.
below is a link on food charts, and a food calculator, use the nutrient on the label, we are looking for DRY CARB MATTER , since you do not mention where you are from, we would like you to create your signature as well, link below. Please keep asking , we are here for you .
the spreadsheet looks great :bighug:

Sticky - New? How You Can Help Us Help You!
Links to FOOD CHARTS
Carb Calculator - Felinediabetes.com
Click to expand...
This is so helpful! Thank you for the welcome, your detailed reply and the link to Food Charts. I'm in Australia, so I've been confused about which foods might be the same/different here to the US - but I see now there is an Australian food list here! Amazing, that's going to make life so much easier.

With everything you've said, I definitely want to change Arjuna's food. But as you said, we'll need to change it gradually. So I think we should stay with the current feeding protocol while we work with the vet (we're in contact with her multiple times a day and testing Arjuna at home).
I think once we have some stability with the vet's guidance, we will move to managing it ourselves with a human BG tester and gently adjusting to new low carb food. Do you think that's a good idea?


P.S. We are doing test-feed-shoot, for sure! Our vet also has us checking the BG 6 hours after the shot for the nadir. All of our appointments are from home and we're doing the BG testing ourselves when the vet isn't here.
P.P.S. I hope my new signature works :)
 
good idea on the transition, however testing 6 hours after shot is not a good idea it takes about 2 hours for the insulin to kick in, about +2 or +3 that's when you should test again, just in case, you do not want surprises. You are going to do just GREAT! ;) 🫶
 
One of the sites we have relied on for a number of years is a webpage authored by a vet, Lisa Pierson, DVM, with an avid interest in feline nutrition. She is categorically unhappy with a dry food diet. There are two reasons she's a proponent of a canned food or raw food diet. First, cat's are obligate carnivores. Most if not all of the dry food that is available has carbohydrates and cats are unable to metabolize carbs. And, carbs are not compatible with a diabetic diet. The second reason is that cat's have a limited thirst drive. In the wild, cats consume live prey and get much of their hydration from what they eat. Kibble is, obviously, dry. Cats don't get any moisture from the food which is also problematic for a diabetic given that one of the symptoms of diabetes is thirst. In addition, a dry food is not particularly helpful with keeping a cat's kidneys healthy. One of the biggest health concerns for cats when they age is kidney disease.

In case you're looking for information about food in Australia, this is a link to one of our food lists.

I'm also tagging one of our members who may have more information. @Bron and Sheba (GA)

If you plan to make changes at this point, you're fine to do so. It takes 5 - 7 days with twice a day dosing for Lantus to build up (i.e., form a depot) in your cat's system. If you skip doses, it prolongs the formation and stabilization of the depot. Once the depot is in place, it typically takes 3 days for any change in dose to stabilize. There is a good deal of reading at the top of the Lantus forum page about how Lantus works. You may want to take a look at the information there.

Please keep asking questions. The members here are generous with their time and information.
 
Hi James and Nico (have I got the right?) and welcome to the forum.
I live in Sydney and am happy to help in any way I can.

First of all I’m not sure your vet knows a lot about feline diabetes. Vets have a lot of animals and diseases to think about and feline diabetes is not like canine diabetes.
It is not a good idea to be skipping doses when the BG is so high. And definitely please give the doses twice a day NOT once a day. A cat’s metabolism is much faster than a humans (humans can have once a day dosing) but if you only give insulin once a day to a cat, the insulin runs out after 12 hours and that leaves the cat with no insulin for the next 12 hours. Does that make sense?

Another very important thing you need to be doing from TODAY while the BGs are so high is testing the urine for ketones.
You can do this by buying a bottle of Ketostix from a pharmacy (humans use them). You will need to collect a urine sample from Arjuna and dip the test strip into the urine and then test it against the colours on the side of the bottle at exactly 15 seconds. There should be no ketones. If there are please tell us and the vet immediately. Ketones in the urine must be acted on immediately.
Here is a link to collecting a urine sample
Collecting urine sample

Are you testing the BG, then feeding and then giving the dose of insulin?
And how often do you feed Arjuna? We recommend you give multiple snacks during the day and evening as well as the two main meals…preferably during the first half of the cycle when the insulin is strongest. For example you could give a teaspoon of a low carb wet food at +2 and +4 and +6. This might also slow down any fast drops you are having in the BG.

Do you work from home? If not you might like to think about buying an automatic timed feeder.
Please keep asking questions.
Bron
 
@Bron and Sheba (GA) @CORKY @Sienne and Gabby (GA) - Thank you all so much for your help! I feel less confused and more confident in my own knowledge and understanding of my cat! Arjuna had been off dry food for years until this Royal Canin dry food introduction, because she's elderly, has had UTIs in the past, and it sometimes upsets her tummy -- and for all the reasons you pointed out. It's felt terrible putting it back in her diet. Thanks to your encouragement, we're getting rid of it!

First, quick updates:
1. No ketones, thank gawd. I appreciate your advice to test that, Bron. And her BG numbers have gone down a lot. Nowhere near where we want them to be, but it's early days, and I'm glad they've started to even out.

2. You're all right that the 1x a day insulin thing is baaad and yes, it makes sense why. The vet has now given us syringes so we can draw out of the Lantus pen and administer 0.5 units, rather than using the pen for 1 unit. This has meant she's been getting 2 shots instead of just 1 per day. I think our vet is very cautious to not let Arjuna have a hypo episode and that's why she had us skipping doses and adding the dry food. Maybe too cautious. Anyway, Arjuna's on 2 shots a day now which is reassuring. The amount of insulin is different as her numbers are still a bit wobbly, but I'm glad it's 2 a day.

Now onto food questions and updates!

We've transitioned Arjuna off the dry food. Since we're getting constant updates with our vet, and because of your reassurance, I figured now was a good time to get her on the diet she's going to be on going ahead (i.e. wet low carb), rather than getting things stable with dry food and then changing it. Plus, Arjuna started getting bloated and soft stools on the dry food (usual for her with dry - as the vet knows! AGH!). She is clearly feeling more comfortable with the wet :)

Here is what we're doing:

3:30am - 1/4 pouch wet
7am - BG test, breakfast and insulin <- I text the vet the number, she advises the unit
11:30am - 1/4 pouch wet
3:30pm - 1/4 pouch wet
7pm - BG test, dinner and insulin <- I text the vet the number, she advises the unit
11:30pm - 1/4 pouch wet

Does this seem like a good schedule?

Her breakfast and dinner as Royal Canin Diabetic wet. The "snacks" throughout the day/night were Royal Canin Dry and I bought some Gourmet Delight wet food to replace this. The swap hasn't helped much yet (only been a couple of days), but we're sticking to wet for those snacks.

My question right now is.... Is the Royal Canin Diabetic wet food actually that bad? I haven't seen anything on this forum about this particular product. Obviously the dry stuff is heinous and we won't be using that, but the Royal Canin Diabetic wet pouches seem fine and comparative to the nutritional composition of other foods recommended here (e.g. Gourmet Delights, which I am trying her on now). Here's what I calculated:

FoodPortionCaloriesCarbohydrateCarb percentage as-fedApprox. carb as % of energy*
Royal Canin wet1 × 85 g sachet66.3 kcal≈2.2 g≈2.5–2.6%≈13%
Gourmet Delight wet1 × 80 g sachet48 kcalUp to 2.4 gUp to 3%Up to 20%
Royal Canin dry120 kibbles = 28 g≈107.8 kcal≈7.2 g25.7% NFE≈27%

I might be wrong with my maths? Here are the analyses from the packs of Royal Canin versus Gourmet Delight:

Royal Canin Diabetic Wet (85g)
Analytical constituants: Protein: 8.9% - Fat content: 3.2% - Crude ash: 1.7% - Crude fibres: 1.1% - Moisture: 82.5% - Essential fatty acids: 0.54% - Total sugars: 1.3% - Starch: 1.2% - source of carbohydrates: modified corn starch - rice. Metabolisable energy: 78 kcal/100 g.

Gourmet Delight wet (80g)
Metabolizable Energy (kcal/kg) 600
Crude Protein (min.) 6.0%
Crude Fat (min.) 3.0%
Carbohydrates (max.) 2.0%
Collagen (min) 1%

What do you think?
I'm tempted to not even worry about the Gourmet Delight and just go with Royal Canin wet all day, because I know her tummy likes it and it's got good kjs and protein. And we have 473297429 boxes of it.

Today, our vet has us doing some BG testing right before her snacks to see how her BG does/doesn't dip. I'll keep you updated.

Thank you again for your advice. What a wonderful community you have here.

James
 
I just want to clarify-- are you changing the dose every day based on the preshot number. For example, if you text the vet a high number, are you dosing higher?
 
The dose needs to remain the same it takes a couple of weeks with the dose given to see the effects of the insulin, also if the wet can is Royal Cannin this is also high carbs, you need to look for DRY CARB MATTER, also if you test after Arjuana has fed you will not going to get a true reading, is before feeding, the same goes for AMPS/PMPS thr protocol in TEST/FEED/SHOOT
 
Liz & Crowley said:
I just want to clarify-- are you changing the dose every day based on the preshot number. For example, if you text the vet a high number, are you dosing higher?
Click to expand...
Yes, that's correct -- the vet tells us with each shot what we should be dosing based on the current preshot number
 
CORKY said:
The dose needs to remain the same it takes a couple of weeks with the dose given to see the effects of the insulin, also if the wet can is Royal Cannin this is also high carbs, you need to look for DRY CARB MATTER, also if you test after Arjuana has fed you will not going to get a true reading, is before feeding, the same goes for AMPS/PMPS thr protocol in TEST/FEED/SHOOT
Click to expand...
We're always testing before the feed, don't worry :)

I'll look for the Royal Canin dry carb matter, thank you! This update might influence this though:

UPDATE - Arjuna's BG this morning at 7am before breakfast was 24.9. Per vet's instructions, gave 1 unit Latnus. Testing at 11:30am before her first snack, and it's 11.3! Is that too much of a sudden drop?
 
203 is not low a non-diabetic cats’s glucose level is between 50-120 and Lantus is a Depot insulin it takes a couple of weeks for the insulin to take effect in the system, so changing doses will only create a constant bounce in the BG
 
CORKY said:
203 is not low a non-diabetic cats’s glucose level is between 50-120 and Lantus is a Depot insulin it takes a couple of weeks for the insulin to take effect in the system, so changing doses will only create a constant bounce in the BG
Click to expand...
Ooohhh that sucks!!! So perhaps stick to the 1unit 2xdaily we've been doing for the past few days?

So the BG dropping from 24.6mmol/L to 11.5mmol/L in 4 hours isn't worrying? The nadir (+6 hrs from 1 unit shot) is in 2 hours from now. The vet is concerned that the BG will keep dropping too quickly. She's very concerned at trying to keep Arjuna's BG steady at first even if it's not in a perfect range yet. I know we don't want big peaks and troughs with humans, is it the same for cats?

Sorry for asking so many questions and being so lost. I've read so much on this forum but still feel overwhelmed and unsure.
 
jamco said:
Yes, that's correct -- the vet tells us with each shot what we should be dosing based on the current preshot number
Click to expand...
So the important thing with Lantus is not the preshot number so much (although especially at first, one might sometimes reduce the dose based on the preshot number), but the nadir. Generally, people pick one dosing method and stick with it from these two.
For example, right now I work in office 2x a week, so I'm on Start Low, Go Slow, which is the less aggressive method. This means I've been slowly increasing his insulin doses, and even if he has a very high number, I shoot the same amount. I tried a dose increase this week, but it ended up causing him to "bounce"-- go up very high and then go lower under the reduction amount, which meant that I reduced his dose back down. But if I saw his number in the 300s and loaded him up, that could have gotten dangerous (as is, because he was bouncing, I saw the lowest number I'd ever gotten on the meter!!).
 
Liz & Crowley said:
So the important thing with Lantus is not the preshot number so much (although especially at first, one might sometimes reduce the dose based on the preshot number), but the nadir. Generally, people pick one dosing method and stick with it from these two.
For example, right now I work in office 2x a week, so I'm on Start Low, Go Slow, which is the less aggressive method. This means I've been slowly increasing his insulin doses, and even if he has a very high number, I shoot the same amount. I tried a dose increase this week, but it ended up causing him to "bounce"-- go up very high and then go lower under the reduction amount, which meant that I reduced his dose back down. But if I saw his number in the 300s and loaded him up, that could have gotten dangerous (as is, because he was bouncing, I saw the lowest number I'd ever gotten on the meter!!).
Click to expand...
Thank you Liz! Ah, I didn't know that the nadir was the most important with Latnus, and I didn't realise a bounce could occur like that.
I've just taken today's nadir and it's 7.1mmol/L. Could this be the kind of "bounce" you're talking about?

I'm taking it again in 2.5hrs (right before her afternoon snack) and I'll report back with what the vet says about what her dose should be tonight. Ohhh so confusing.
 
Yes, the concern is how low they get! Better they get a bit too high for a bit than a bit too low for a bit!

I'm afraid I'm not super familiar with the numbers in that measuring system, but if it's the one in the spreadsheet from the 25th, could be! If you look at Crowley's spreadsheet on the 22nd and 23rd, you'll see two pretty clear bounces in his PM numbers. You can see him run from pink to yellow to blue to green!

I could tell it was going to be a bounce when I got his PMPS number because it was so high, and then I could predict (somewhat) the rest of the pattern. Although I did not expect how low he would go! Still safe but lower than ever!

You do start to become more familiar with your cat's patterns over time! I'm still relatively new, but I've gathered a lot data and gotten a lot of good info and advice from people here and on the lantus subforum.
 
Hi James and Nico
As others have said, Lantus dosing is based on how low the dose takes the cat (ie the nadir). Not the Preshot number.
We take the Preshot BG to check it is safe to give the dose.
And Lantus insulin does much better with staying with the same dose so the depot can stabilise. We increase or decrease because of the nadir not the Preshot.
If you follow one of our dosing methods, you will see this is what we do.
 
jamco said:
Arjuna was on a 100% wet diet with Applaws "complete" (I'm sure it has high carbs)
Click to expand...
I think that is now called the Vitality line? At least looking at the chicken and duck version ingredients, it is probably low carb. I haven't seen a proper analysis of it to be sure. The Royal Canin, if it's the DM, is fine to feed for diabetics. The ingredients aren't the best but OK. Be aware that some cats get tired of it over time. If that happens, your vet should give you your money back for any unopened food.

Some clarity on what a bounce is - it is not caused by dose increases, definition here:
Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
Click to expand...
There is a ton of information on the yellow Sticky Notes at the top of the Lantus forum. You might want to read through them. Take your time, there is a lot of information.

Lantus is a depot style insulin (description of a depot in one of those Sticky Notes), but it basically means some of it goes into the blood stream and some is stored and slowly released over time. It can take 6 cycles to build up the depot so you can see what the dose can do.

One recommendation I have, try getting a second test in the PM, after the preshot test. Many cats go lower at night. A test around +2 to +3 will give you an idea if she's going lower at night. As stated above, our dosing methods look at how low the dose is taking the cat's blood sugar to determine what to do next with the dose.
 
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