Is there anyone out there? Got SS.

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Mad Scientist and Buddy

Member Since 2010
I'm tired and worn through and through. This past summer Buddy a 6 year old Main Coon dropped some serious weight so I took him to the vet and he was diagnosed with Diabetes. He had been lathargic and wasn't eating much at the time. One unit Lantus 2X and switch him to low carb diet (Purina DM) dry and wet. Thought this was going to be easy - NOT. Fast forward 3 weeks, back for first BG check at vet 490mg/dL don't remember what original number was but this was higher than at diagnosis. So his dose was increased to 1.5units 2X daily. Fast forward a week, I get smarter and buy a glucose meter realizing that spot checks every couple of weeks aren't enough. So I'm testing him in early eve, ~6-7pm before his evening shot. 540 427 457 457 554. Make vet appt (this was over a couple weeks). She thinks possibly Somogyi effect. We decide to back off to 1unit 2X daily and get a curve on the weekend to find out what is going on. Get home that night and Buddy throws up the water he just drank and had liquid poo - did not give insulin cause not eating. Bring him back the next night for fluids and am told that .75-1unit if his BG still high was ok to bring it back down even though he wasn't eating. These are fasting numbers 327 (at .75unit shot time) 272 158 148 147 these are numbers over night and next morn. Was afraid to inject at 147 with a fasting cat so I didn't. That night it was up to 293 so I gave 0.75 units again. With intermitent shots of 0.5 units he got down to 99 then 71mg/dL over next few days - was starting to eat 1tsp DM wet food every now and then. He got more affectionate as his BG became normal. Fast forward to this week Tu night 370 (he is eating 3/4 can DM wet morn and night) gave 0.5 units. Wed morn 348 gave 0.5 units, Wed eve 103 no injection given. Thurs morn 384 (from here on out .5units at each reading except curve numbers) eve 331, Fri morn 319 (coming down good right) Fri eve 309 he's eating one whole can per meal now. Sat morn 388 (major setback) sat eve 372 start curve every 2 hours 383, 438 - 4 hours out he's ragged, i'm ragged and his BG is going up so I abort curve. Sunday morn, didn't take (gave 1unit though stupid w/o getting a number) Sun eve 435 gave one unit. Sorry for being long winded, I have to set up a spreadsheet. Please anyone who's seen these kind's of numbers . . . . he constantly is begging for food even with higher BG numbers. I want to help him so badly, but am completely lost at this point. None of this makes any sense and my vet is losing my confidence. I'm ready to loose my mind dealing with him and my other cat Jade who has taken to bullying him a bit. :YMSIGH:
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Hey Mad Scientist,

I am a "newbie" (Lantus Land lingo for someone just contacting the club, like you). So I don't have any advice to you other than to hang on just a little because some very experienced and caring folks will help you out here. I was feeling much like you just two weeks ago. The spreadsheet is a good idea and we do them here. I had no idea how to do one, but now I do. With your numbers, you have a big head start on where I was.

Anyway, you're in the right place. They told me to take a big deep breath. It helps.

Cee & Gandolf cat_pet_icon
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Welcome to Lantus Land.

I'd encourage you to read the starred sticky notes at the top of the Board. These will give you a huge amount of information about Lantus and the dosing protocol that we use.

Getting a spreadsheet set up will help enormously. It's hard to follow the numbers in your text.

Most cats will eat a good deal more than you're used to seeing when they are unregulated. The nutrition you're feeding isn't going into the cells so they are hungry all the time.

Are you still feeding Purina D/M wet and dry? If so, the dry is a medium carb (MC) food in that it is 13% carb. You need to be feeding low carb (LC) which we consider to be below 10% carb. Most of us feed below 5%. The canned D/M is 7% but it is primarily by-products and as such, it really a low quality food. You have a considerable number of alternatives that are better quality at far less cost. Janet & Binky's food charts can help you to make better choices regarding food. You may also want to take a look at the website written by a vet, Dr. Lisa Pierson, that contains a huge amount of information on feline nutrition.

(FYI: Please remove the candle from your post. We use this icon as an indication that a kitty has died.)
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Cee & Gandolf

Thank you, I'm just starting to loose my mind here. He's become fixated on food one can down and he want's more. Each can has 191 calories in it and 2X a day should be plenty, so I just listen to him cry for more. Don't know if I"m doing the right thing anymore. Feels like with more food, he goes up in BG. I know I need to work on the spreadsheet, but I just don't have it in my tonight. It's gotten really hard for me to get blood from his ears and inject him. I used to just have to hold his ear, now I have to just about hold him down. And injections are almost just as bad. He just wants food all the time.
Becoming sad and depressed. The week of the vomiting/diarrhea was at the vet 3X for fluids. Tried to give them at home that Saturday but he wouldn't be still long enough, only got about 25-30 mL in him. But he had started eating wet food so I wasn't as worried about dehydration.
I've been doing nothing but run around with all this and just getting tired. Thank you for your kind words.

Tony and Buddy.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Yes, there are lots of us out there. Start reading the sticky notes at the top of thus forum & ask lots more questions. It is overwhelming but you can prevail. They wise ones will start chiming in soon -- in the meantime you need to home test, read, read, read, and ask questions as they occur. That's where I started last March, my kitty, Lanky, turned out to be acromegaly much to my dismay & my vet's astonishment. But here you can get the help you need. Stay tuned & keep reading!
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

He is only on wet DM so confused about all the food stuff going on. In principle it should be easy till I look at a label and none of it looks good. Is evo a good choice? Isn't it as expensive as DM? Should I give him more or am I being counterproductive here by increasing BG more? Seems the more he eats the higher it goes. As for the spreadsheet, tomorrow, when the sun is shining and I can trust myself to concentrate, I will get it done. Sorry about the candle - So worried I'm gong to lose him.

Tony and Buddy
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I'm new here but one thing I would like to say is your vet may or may not be the best for this but I can say at least the advice to try Lantus was spot on. My vet gives me the script but doesn't have an open mind or help.

The posts I see for newcomers usually advise starting on health board first as I did.There is a lot of help here and I was scared and frustrated too.
There is a Tech board where you can learn to set up your spread sheet and a profile. SS is most important right noww so the advisers can see the trends. There are links to feeding and I can tell you that practically everyone advises feeding only canned. Maybe with his new diagnosis that DM is too high in carbs. If it has grains it could account for some of the high BGs.(You'll also want to see the stickey at the top of the boards for FDMB lingo)
There are many good meat based foods and since Buddy already will eat canned food you are well on your way. Every cat is different but I refused to feed the diabetic RX food my vet wanted me to because grain was first ingredient and the rest was pretty much low quality. Some kitties have trouble with wheat gluten too so that may narrow options.

While the experts take over and while you wait read the info for newcomers, check out Dr Lisa Pierson's site about how cats should eat, check out Tilly's and Blinky's pages this will all help in getting on the right track.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I've actually been all over the websites for days. Every can of food I come across just never seems like it will be any better than the DM. So much crap out there it's not even funny. I love how Hills is supposed to be this ultra premium healthy stuff, but in reality it's worse for a cat than 9 lives. At least some of those flavors have no carbs/fruit/grains in the ingredient list. . . . Are people happy with Evo? That looks like just about the only thing I've come across that I can get locally and is recommeded?
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

hey Mad Scientist...Welcome!

i can totally relate to the frustration and fear...but you have come to the right place. i was afraid of losing my guy too...and at my most desperate moment, found this board. we've been here since mid-august...and it's amazing what has been accomplished with the help and wisdom of the folks here...

hang in there...the best advisors are here, and they are so willing to reach out and help us newbies.
we even laugh quite a bit along the way...

glad you're here...and i think you will be too...

celi & binks
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Hi - I just wanted to day welcome to Lantus Land!

There are many people here who will be helpful - you will hear from them all shortly. When you have time read the stickies at the top of Board - they will answer many of the questions you have. The spreadsheet is important too - it will allow the dosing experts to advise on the proper dose for Buddy. BG #s can fluctuate alot - this is normal, so don't worry. Those in the know here can help you get that under better control. The link that Sienne gave you in regards to food is very helpful - a great resource. I too will not feed my guy vet prescribed food - the carb content is too high, and there are so many other foods available that are better.

Good luck! And welcome abroad. You have found a great place - very caring people. and don't worry - Buddy will be in good hands - we all will help you keep him safe.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Deep breath. Making yourself upset and crazy won't help. We suggest a lot of deep breaths and patience.

If you've not posted on the Health Board, how about posting there? If you give people your location (city/state/province if you're in Canada), often there is a member who can help you with testing and shooting. The Health Board has a larger cross section of people. We are all Lantus Landers here.

Buddy's numbers are not horrible. He's not regulated but his numbers are not in the stratosphere. Give yourself a little time to absorb the info in the sticky notes. The entire feline diabetes (FD) experience and getting up to speed is overwhelming. We've all been there and can attest to just how frightening it can be. You've found an incredible community of people who will give you as much help as you want or need.

The one thing I suspect your vet did not tell you is that Lantus takes time to work. The effects of the doses are cumulative. Doses need to be held for several days in order to assess their effectiveness.

As for food, EVO 95% is very low in carbs. I don't know off the top of my head about the other varieties of EVO. It probably costs about what you're paying for prescription food and the quality is far better. I feed a combination of raw food and Wellness but have also fed Fancy Feast. The Fancy Feast is still far better quality than Hills.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Unfortunately, most vets are not experts in diabetes. The protocol we follow here is very good and Lantus is a good insulin. If you can stick around, I think you'll be amazed at how well you'll be able to manage the diabetes. Most of us don't use our vets for any diabetes management - we just get the prescription and follow the protocol.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Welcome to the site.
Here are some of the links for you:
Below is the protocol many follow and it's good to understand how the shed works and will affect the test results you are seeing.
Tight Regulation Protocol
LANTUS & LEVEMIR – INSULIN DEPOT –AKA- STORAGE SHED

You never know when you can get a really low BG, so best to recognize them and be prepared for them.
List of Hypo symptoms
How to treat HYPOS – They can kill! Print this out!
Jojo’s HYPO TOOLKIT

Here's some food info links. Alot of people feed fancy feast, friskies, and 9Lives as they are decent priced and low carb. No dry is good for diabetics, and there have been many cats who are diet controlled and not needing any insulin, so it's pretty important.
Binky’s Food Lists
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition

About the food - until regulated, you may see a huge appetite because the body is not able to extract the nutrients from the foods, so just keep feeding. It will settle down once you get the BG numbers under control.

My Oliver was eating more than 30oz a day and my Shadoe was eating close to 24oz a day, but that's before they got regulated. Now, if Shadoe eats even 10oz in a day, that's alot. Even Oliver is down to maybe 15oz or less. Imagine being hungry, eating, then still feeling hungry. That's how I see it. Eventually, you will see a bit decrease in the appetite, but till then, just let the kitty eat. Look at Binky's list and select some of the low carbs foods. Stick to under 10% and closer to maybe 5%; forget about the calorie stuff for the time being, but focus on the carbs instead because the higher carbs will cause higher numbers.

Once you have your spreadsheet set up, you will start to see patterns as you fill it with your test results.

About the testing - take your time and relax because the cats can sense you are upset or frustrated, so they will feel the same. The same goes with the fluids; I get everything all ready and then give Shadoe some special attention and she is better with the fluids when happy and relaxed. Lots of things about giving fluids will make a difference; you may even find that a smaller needle is all it takes to make Buddy more comfortable getting them.

It's ok; in the beginning, it's pretty stressful with all there is to learn, but don't worry. You have tons of people here who can help you, and very likely they know more than your vet will ever know about FD and all related to it.

My vet knows very little but I take info to her. My directions for treating my 2 cats comes from the good people here, not my vet. My vet is for dental issues and blood work, and urine tests, and meds. Other than that, I come here.

Before you know it, you are going to see the old Buddy back as he becomes more regulated.
Ask all the questions you want, and someone will have an answer for you.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

In fact EVO is a very good food and they have 95% all meat varieties as does Wellness another excellent food. Wellness also regular canned foods as does Evo. Wellness uses human grade ingredients so it is a high quality food. While I had only used these foods including the Wellness dog food meat only foods (They have taurine sufficient for cats per nutrition person ) I had to use other foods as his need for higher carb foods came about from low BGs.
Fancy Feast classics are low carb and gluten free. 9 Lives has some HC high carb gluten free foods my cat loves Daily Essentials with tender slices in real beef gravy not for regular feeding. There are medium carb foods (MC).

There is a lot to learn but you can do it. I spent several days close to tears and others crying I was so overwhelmed it will get better
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Gayle and Shadoe,

So let him fly with the food? He might be easier to handle, I've been afraid it's counterproductive to letting the insulin work. Before he was having fluid issues at both ends, he was still eating dry DM (on advice of vet) and pooping 6X a day. But I could inject him and test him no problem, had been testing for 3+ weeks and injecting for almost a whole month at that point. Perhaps feeding more might make him more manageable again and take away both our stress . . . Thank you for the insight on 30oz. a day feedings. Makes my current 11 look like nothing. Going to go give him another can.

Tony and Buddy.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Mad Scientist to keep from getting too mad get your sleep tonight :lol: You may not feel much like laughing now but it won't seem so bad tomorrow when you have slept and you find all the support and great advisers in Lantus Land. YOU ARE NOT ALONE :YMHUG: They will help you help Buddy and the rest of us will support and give you help where we can. We Are Here.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I just thought of how hard Buddy is to handle and I can relate. My Persian has not been a tolerant cat but I found his weakness sliced roasted turkey from the Deli. He will do just about anything for it. He gets so excited that as soon as I could I only brought it out at the end. Have them show you the label on the package to be sure there is no sugar.I fooled with ham once ohmygod_smile Gotta test my kitty he's been dropping down today :roll:
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I forgot one thing about the food .... try to take all food away for the 2 hours prior to his shots because your tests at shot time need to be not food influenced. You could feed Buddy then test and get a number that is higher because of the foods.

So if shot is at 6pm, no food from 4pm till you give the shot. Test and then you can even give the food while you are giving the shot. Buddy may be easier to give shots if he's preoccupied with the foods!
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Tony
I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time.
Yes it is overwelming but you can do it.
I fed and still feed Max fancy feast, classic pate only and he went from
6u of Lantus to none since April.
have a look at our spreadsheet.

An unregulated cat will always want a lot of food. Spreading his meals throughout the
day is good and as Gayle said, removed 2 hours before shot time so that you have a BG
number that is not tainted by food.

Take thos breaths. You are in a great place to get help for Buddy.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Hey Tony & Buddy,
You've gotten a lot of really good advice already. I just want to second the advice about taking a deep breath. It helps! Wellness, Evo 95% foods, Merrick Cowboy Cookout, are all good choices: good ingredients and good taste. It helps to give the insulin shot while Buddy is eating. This is what most people here do. He is distracted, his head is already down because it is in his bowl, and all goes much more smoothly. You will get lots of help and support here. Welcome!

Ella
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Tony and Buddy

Welcome to Lantus Land. Gracie and I have only been here three weeks and we have learned so much and everyone is kind and caring and helpful. I was very scared, too, as was Kathy (Powder) and other newbies. The wise ones here have helped us immensely. Gracie was also eating ravenously and now she is eating normally and she is back to her happy cat self. Once the Lantus storage shed fills, I bet you will see him gradually start to eat normally. The dosing protocols are very, very good and the experienced guides in LL will help you know when to increase or decrease the dose but you can't bounce around with the dose. I started very low with Gracie (.5u BID) and we have slowly increased. Do you warm his ears? The newbie kits come with glucometers, test strips, lancets, and a rice bag (which I couldn't live without). The calmer you are, the calmer Buddy will be and be sure and give him some low carb treats after his testing (I use freeze dried chicken breast). I also feed the Evo 95% (beef is 2% and chicken/turkey is 1%), Merrick Surf and Turf (3%), Wellness (chicken-3%, chicken/beef-4%), and Nature's Variety Instinct (3% carbs). You may find that Buddy can tolerate a little higher than that but the mantra here is "Every Cat is Different" (ECID) and you will see it constantly. The other thing the people in LL have taught me is to keep my sense of humor!! They are a jolly bunch and it helps. So, yes, we are all out here. If you need help setting up your SS or Profile, let me know.
Sienne is right...just breathe and tomorrow will be better.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I think it has all been said, so just welcome! :YMHUG: You have come to the right spot for advice and knowledge about FD.

Lantus is a very good insulin, but you have to learn to give it a chance. You can vary other insulins based on preshot. Not Lantus, the shed must have a chance to fill and then the insulin gets to work. Lantus dosing is based on nadir, the point in the day when the BG is lowest, we do not change doses based on preshot numbers. We only use that test to see if it is safe to shoot.

As for the eating, definitely let him eat all he wants. As his body starts to function properly , he will start to regulate his intake by himself. Tess seems to prefer Fancy Feast and Sophisticat (petSmart brand) to the higher quality foods, but we also feed some home made raw. Shooting while he eats will also help a lot. Tess wants to fidget a lot for shots, but if I do it while she is eating, she never even notices.

If his numbers are high are you checking for ketones? They can be a severe problem if they develope, usually when BGs are high. You can get ketone test strips at any pharmacy. Get it in a fresh sample of urine (the hard part :roll: ) wait 15 seconds and compare it to the chart on the vial. If ketones are more than a trace, see your vet!

Let us know where you are, someone may be nearby to help.
 
Ok, so I have my spreadsheet set up. He was diagnosed on 08/20/2010 and was put on 1unit Lantus 100 2X daily which he received religiously. On 08/31/2010 vet increased dose to 1.5 based on spot check that had increased over diagnosis level. He received this dose religiously and I started spot checking at home. He was being converted from Iams indoor dry to Purina DM dry slowly from day 1 diagnosis. Was uncomfortable dosing when he started vomiting/diahrrea on 9/29. I did not know what would happen to BG if his stomach was empty like that. No resource at the time -erred on the side of caution. At this point in SS, if there was no data, he did not receive a shot. Starting this week, will be adding dates/data every day. Hopefully, with 1.5 cans food he will feel more satiated and become easier to handle with BG sampling and injections. It used to be easy when he was first diagnosed and was allowed to "free feed" all day on dry food. After his throwing up/diarrhea, he has only had Purina DM wet, but I am looking at other options, probably a mixture of Evo 95% and some fancy feast to finish filling him up. As a combo high quality/economically sound plan. Cause he's flying through DM right now @ 1.50 a can. He's starting to pee more and poop more in conjunction with higher BG's and increased food/water. Still hard to be around to get fresh pee for ketone testing although I have strips now. Thank you all for insight and support last night. I was just having a small breakdown. I've been living Daibetes literature hardcore for a couple weeks now. I've even found the original protocol from Queensland Vet in PDF form if anyone wants a look. I've attached it.
 

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Re: Is there anyone out there?

Hi Tony...and welcome to you and Buddy! :mrgreen:
Good job getting your SS up and working! :thumbup

Here in LL, we post a condo (thread) each day for our kitties. Please begin a new one this morning.
In the Header, please put Date, name of Kitty, AMPS=_____________
In your condo for the day, the first post should include the link to the previous day's condo.
You may come back and post any questions that you might have in your condo...and we would like to see updates for any BG tests that you do during the day. If you look at other condos, you will see how people add the new BG number to the header. We do have many kitties here in LL so we do ask that there is only one condo per day per kitty. Please feel free to visit other condos and see what is happening with all the kitties in LL.

That link about the Lantus Protocol is actually found in the sticky at the top of this page. Please read all the starred stickies so you will be4come familiar with out terminology and our protocol for dosing. Please start with this one: "New to the Group"... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18139

Once you start a new condo for today, I will meet you there with more information.
You are doing a great job...you are in the right place! Welcome! :mrgreen:
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

To get a urine sample, I put my cat in the bathroom with the door closed along with a clean empty litter box filled with only a little bit of clean aquarium gravel (to look like litter) Along with a bowl of water for her to drink.

This Lantus board prefers (expects) you to start a new thread daily. Also not to have more than that one thread per day.
All questions would be asked in your daily thread.

Example:
10/11 Buddy AMPS +383
You then can edit that first posting to add more BG tests if you are logged in. There is an edit button in each post.
You want to edit your original posting that shows up in the message board.
Example:
10/11 Buddy AMPS +383, +3 355, +6 299, PMPS 300
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

Tony:

We're a bit ahead of you. If you look in the sticky note on our dosing protocols, there is a link to the Rand/Queensland protocol (the same one that you attached) and the "Tilly Protocol" which is essentially the same. The Tilly Protocol is from the Lantus forum based in Germany and they provided the data to Dr. Rand. We use a slightly modified version but the guidelines are essentially the same.

Great job on getting Buddy's SS up and running and linked to your signature. For now, please get pre-shot tests religiously. At the minimum, you'll want to get one test per cycle (AM and PM cycles) in addition to your AM/PMPS. Most of us get more than 4 tests per day but 4 is the minimum.

Did you shoot 2 hours late last night? If so, your AM shot (put it in the dose box) should be 12 hours from the time you shot yesterday. Usually, we just note an early or late shot in the Comments section of the SS. Lantus likes consistency both in dose and in when you shoot. You do not have a huge amount of flexibility with shot times. If you need to move back to your "usual" shot time, in general, you can move the time by up to 30 min. per day. Let us know if you need to move the shot time.

I'd stick with your current dose for several more cycles. You really need to get more data in order to see how Lantus is working and so you can evaluate what the next step is. Also, with changing over to canned food, there may be an effect on numbers and you need to be able to determine what that change is. Often, numbers will drop.

Pat is providing you with the next step in terms of getting set up for today.
 
Re: Is there anyone out there?

I have been having a hard time getting the blood for the BG tests too.
using the lancet free hand at a 45 degree angle seems to work better and has helped.

You can put rice in a sock and heat it in the microwave or wet a washcloth, heat in microwave, then put in plastic bag.
Warming the kitty's ear before pricking helps.
 
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