Introducing SCHROEDER!

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AndreaM

AndreaM

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Hi Everyone,

I have an 8 year old male cat named Schroeder, who was diagnosed with diabetes a month ago. He's having a tough go of it. His BG readings in the morning are so high my vet's meter can't read it! We thought we had it under control on Monday when we increased his dose from 1to 2 units of Caninsulin. Got his numbers down to 7 after 7 hours, which is apparently when the insulin peaks in Schroeder. I took him in again yesterday for a morning BG test and another peak insulin test b/c the vet wanted to make sure we weren't dropping his sugars too low. But, his numbers were very high again - 21 seven hours into it. I don't know what the conversion is for the other scale that is used. Now we have to run another blood panel tomorrow morning for some more clues. His appetite isn't great, and he's lost almost 2 pounds over the last month. :( I'm going to ask the vet to use a new bottle of insulin tomorrow to see if my bottle, for whatever reason, might have become inert. I'm gentle with it, it's stored in the fridge (not in the door), I'm making sure it's mixed properly, etc. So, who knows? Doc put Schroeder on amoxicillan to kill any underlying infection that might have been missed in the original blood panel. I know stress can make the numbers go wonky, but Schroeder's really low key, loves the car ride and isn't afraid of the vet at all. So, I don't think it's that. It's puzzling that we could get his blood sugars down to normal, but less than 5 days later the numbers are way up again. I need a monitor so that I can test him daily.


I appreciate any and all feedback.
Andrea.
 
Welcome Andrea and Schroeder,

One of the problems may be your insulin. Canninsulin, called Vetsulin in the USA, has quality control problems and is not recommended for use in diabetic cats. See this site for info: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=311 It might help if you can get Shroeder on another insulin which is less harsh. Most people here use Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc.

So glad you are considering testing at home. If you are basing dosage on numbers from the vet, it is likely that the numbers are higher there than they would be at home (strange noises, sounds and other animals...)because of vet stress. Then, it's possible that the doses that the vet prescribes may be too high once you get Schroeder home and relaxed. If that is the case, you may be over his ideal dose and he may be in rebound: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound Here is a good beginning site: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm and a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 BTW, multiply your numbers by 18 to get US numbers, which we do use on this site.

The final piece of the puzzle is food. We advocate wet lo carb food. See this site for info: http://www.catinfo.org BUT don't change diet until you are testing at home. The change from dry to wet for our Oliver meant his numbers went down 100 points overnight. If we hadn't tested him before the shot the next morning, we would have overdosed him.

There is a lot of good information on this site. Your job is to be Schroeder's advocate and find the best treatment program for him. We'll help - everyone here has or had a cat who was regulated or in remission, following the protocol here.
 
Hi Andrea,
Welcome to the site!
you asked about converting the BG numbers:
BG Conversion Calculator

The info about the type of insulin you are using:
Lawsuit against Vetsulin Manufacturer
Vetsulin FDAs Warning December 15, 2009

I also started on giving Caninsulin for Shadoe, but have horrible results. It may be OK for dogs, but not so much for cats. I switched to Lantus and saw great progress.
If you are located in Canada, you don't need any rx - you can go to any pharmacy and ask for the insulin. If you get a different insulin, it's more economical to get the package of 5 cartridges instead of a vial.

The BG 21 you mentioned is 378 which is pretty high, but the BG of 7 is a nice 126. Because the insulin you are using is not as long lasting, the dose you give is just wearing off hours before the next shot. A longer lasting insulin will be more gentle on Schroeder, so it's something to consider.

The food is a MAJOR issue - maybe cats are diet controlled diabetics, so just by changing the food fed, removing all dry food and treats, some cats no longer need insulin or need a very small amount. What foods are you currently feeding, how much and how often? The best foods for diabetics will be of a wet and low carb variety.
Below is a link to some listing of foods, and another with info on feeding. Others will have plenty more food info for you.
Binky’s Food Lists
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition

Home testing is the other important issue - by home testing, you can know how the insulin is working or not working.
As Sue mentioned, dosing based on BG taken at the vet office is not a true number because most cats test differently because of stress at being in the vet office. One of mine tests higher at the vet, and the other tests very low. Besides that, you want to know before giving each shot if Schroeder's BG is not too low to give a shot.
Human diabetics test themselves before giving injections, so why not test our cats and treat them the same as we would a child.

Please ask all questions you may have. There is always someone around who can reply to your posting.
 
hi andrea, i hope you can switch insulins. things can get much much better for you and your kitty. read those links sue sent you. i'm hoping sending you a newbie kit won't be an issue so check your pm's just sent another one.
never mailed to canada, don't know which meters you currently have there.
please check in as often as you can...especially once you start testing.
it may help you to know with all the money you've spent that once you start testing you will need very few vet visits. ALL of the testing, curves, etc. can be done by you.
we all do that.
waiting to hear from you.
lori
 
Thank you everyone. Good information on Caninsulin. I will raise this concern with my vet tomorrow. A bad bottle would explain the rise in his BG again. I've got him on wet food. He eats randomly during the day. But his appetite isn't great. Im trying to get that lost weight back on him... He was strictly a dry food cat and only got wet food once a week as a treat. I have always been under the mistaken impression that a dry food diet was best. Now that the "treat" is his daily fare, he seems less interested. I still have his dry food out for him to pick at through the day when I'm at work. I'll pick him up a bag of M/D dry and see if he likes it. He's already bored with the M/D wet. Thank God, cuz it costs a fortune. I've purused the food lists on this site and have a pretty good idea of the wet foods I can feed him. But I think I made a mistake by switching his food around the same time I started him on the insulin. All I know is he's still drinking a lot and peeing a lot. He was normal for about one day last week.
 
Andrea - please don't go back to dry food - it is a surefire way to keep the BG numbers high. This is true for ALL dry foods. There are a variety of LOW-CARB wet foods you can try until your kitty finds one he likes. Please go through this list and find the foods that are lowest in carb and a fairly even split between protein and fat. Once your cat is on that regimen, his numbers will likely drop quite a bit. http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
 
Please don't put him back on MD dry. It is 13% carbs. We try to stay between 8 -10% carbs. And dry food isn't a good diet for any cat. Cats want protein; they don't snack on wheat in the wild! :mrgreen: Read this website by a vet to see why wet is best: http://www.catinfo.org Many cats don't like the MD wet. It is liver based and they seem to get tired of the taste. Lots of us feed Fancy Feast, Friskies, Wellness and Merrick. http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm Janet's food chart will give you lots of options.

But I wouldn't mess around with his food too much until you are hometesting. Wet lo carb can mean a drastic sudden drop in bg levels. Lots of people here use the ReliOn from Walmart as it is expensive and so are the strips. You can use any human glucometer as long as it sips and takes a tiny sample. The glucometers are usually cheap and sometimes free; it is the strips that are expensive. But you can buy them on ebay for half the price in stores. You also need lancets and a lancet device. We suggest newbies start with 25-26 gauge as it makes a bigger hole. Get a meter and try it on yourself. Make a rice sack to warm his ears.

If I were you, I would just ask my vet to prescribe a different insulin. (Take along the info on the recall - although he should have already seen it.) Vetsulin hits hard and fast and doesn't last long. It is much harder to regulate with than the milder, longer lasting insulins like ProZinc, Lantus and Levemir.
 
If you switch insulins, please make sure that you get the right insulin syringe for the new type of insulin. You are probably using U40 syringes now. If you switched to Lantus, you would use U100 syringes. If you are buying new syringes, look for the ones with 1/2 unit markings (BD is one brand that makes one). They are a bit more diffucult to find, but you may be wanting to adjust doses on Lantus (if you decide to switch to it) in increments of less than one unit.

Gayle mentioned buying a package of 5 cartridges of Lantus. This is more economical in the long run over a single vial, because even though the inital outlay is higher, you only open one cartridge at a time, and the others stay fresh. A large vial will tend to poop out after a period of time, and you end up throwing out the unused amount. The cartridges are designed for humans to use with an insulin pen, but you don't need the pen. You just put your syringe into the tip. If you decide to switch to Lantus, please go to the Lantus support group section of the board and read the informational "stickies" at the top.

You are spending a lot of money on vet Rx food that is not necessary. Your cat can do well on a canned food such as Fancy Feast, Friskies, or Wellness, among others. But please heed the warnings of others to not switch foods until you are hometesting.

Lori, a lot of the major BG meters are available in Canada - One Touch Ultra and Aviva Accucheck to name a couple. I think Freestyle as well. There is no Relion.

If you end up buying a meter, DO NOT PAY FOR ONE! Most pharmacies will have some sort of meter with a promotion for a free meter with a purchase of 100 strips (or watch your drugstore weekend flyers for one). There are never any deals in store on test strips.
 
Andrea, I understand you are in BC? I'm in Calgary, so can't offer local help, but I think that Vic and Sundance are in your neck of the woods...

Jen
 
I am in sw BC - not sure if that helps anyone or not. If so, more than willing.

I went to my local Shoppers Drup Mart. I had already filled several prescriptions there for my cat, so they knew that the metre I wanted was also for my cat. However, I bought 100 test strips for $85 and they gave me the metre - One Touch Ultra 2. I like it and found it easy to learn with.
 
I posted a reply to a quote, but it disappeared into cyberland....

I called my vet this morning and let him know my concerns about Caninsulin. He made a call to their manufacturer/distributor and was assured that all those batches in question are not in circulation anywhere. But I also let him know about the concerns that were voiced on the forum about the timing of the insulin delivery. He said that the other slower-release insulins can require some close watching as it's easier to go hypo on those than on Can. With me at work all day, he's alone and no one can watch him. So, he did agree to draw from a new bottle and test him at 7 hours. If Schroeder's numbers drop significantly, it will be pretty clear there was a problem with the original bottle. If so, I'll be making sure he doesn't charge me for it.

I will be on the lookout for the cheapest places to get insulin, syringes, strips, lancets, etc. Someone mentioned E-Bay, so I'll check that out. I think my vet charges an exorbitant amount for tests, drugs, and paraphernalia. I did some checking around with other vets in my area, and they were charging half as much for BG tests and curves. I had a talk with my vet, who says he can't understand how their prices are so low, because he takes his cue from a provincial cost guide.... Anyway, he agreed to match the costs of the other vets. So, I'm paying $15 for a BG test, and $115 for a curve. Once I start my own testing, I won't need to pay doc anymore!

Anyway, right now. I'm paying $55 for 40 units of Can. and $35 for 100 40u syringes. I'm hearing that that is ridiculous....
 
Hey Andrea

One thing you are likely already realizing is that it is complicated when you receive conflicting bits of information...all we can tell you is from our personal as well as collective experiences. We are not vets, but there have been so many cats come through this message board that our case history is huge.

I think your vet's opinion on the dangers of longer lasting insulins is incorrect; typically, longer lasting insulins do not hit as quickly and drop values as sharply. Yes, the effects may last longer but seldom last longer than 12 hours so this is a GOOD thing.

I cannot comment on costs as I haven't had to use insulin in forever, but I can tell you that U40 needs ARE more expensive than U100 and you can use U100 and convert doses, making it easier to fine tune doses as well.

Jen
 
yes, 100 syringes can be gotten for under $15
and i mentioned hocks above...if they ship to canada????
your kit includes 20 U100's cause i was so hoping you'd opt for pro zinc at least and get off the insulin you are on.
it is not as good, shorter acting and we have a room for insulin users but not anyone in that room.
please ask for a change of insulin if you can.
1 vial of pro zinc should last you all year.
are you able to get your paypal up and running?
 
agree agree agree that i would be more worried about a hypo with a faster acting insulin than a longer lasting one.
for one it is gentler on the body.
 
I agree with Jen. It is easier to hypo on Vetsulin, IMHO, because it usually causes a sharp drop within 3-4 hours. The other insulins cause a easier drop, arriving at their lowest point around the 6 hour mark. ProZinc in particular is pretty flexible in terms of dosing. You can dose out of that 12 hour window, if you have the data to support your decision.

Regardless, it is much easier to avoid hypo if you are hometesting. You can test at various times in the cycle and get a real idea of how the insulin works. And also, you can avoid the cost of the vet curve, because you will be doing you own.

I know it is hard to hear conflicting advice. All I can say is that we have seen hundreds of cats go through here, most getting to regulation and many to remission, using our protocol. It does work. I love my vet, but she started us on 4 units twice a day. We came on here, learned to hometest and immediately reduced the dose. I figure vets are like gps. They know a little about a lot of stuff, but they aren't specialists in feline diabetes.
 
lori and tom said:
yes, 100 syringes can be gotten for under $15
and i mentioned hocks above...if they ship to canada????
Click to expand...

Hocks doesn't ship to Canada, as far as I know.

My last box of 100 U100 BD syringes cost me $37.99 at a Shoppers Drug. You could probably do a bit better at a Costco.

Like everything else in Canada, from books to cars, things are more expensive here :cry:
 
well that sux. but do you get free health care? is that the trade off?
 
lori and tom said:
anyone know where surrey BC is? anyone close to it?
Click to expand...

Yes - I am in the adjacent community. I don't know about 'PM's on this board, but if someone wants to put us together, I'll do what I can to help.
 
Just wanted to put a word in for ProZinc. We used it for about 6 weeks, between that and his diet change to all low carb wet food he has not needed a shot since the 28th of Oct. FYI, my vet charges about $15 for the BG check as well. I did the curves at home so I don't know what that cost would of been.

On the wet food, if he does not like what you have try another brand or flavor. We have switched all our boys (3) over to wet, we currently have 6 different flavors. I also noticed one does not like us to heat up the food, so we try to give him a new can that is room temp rather than leftovers from the fridge. And the same cat would never finish the food that got stuck in the corner (between the bottom and sides) of his bowl, so we got a low profile dish and he finishes it all now. Strange critters they are! All of the boys were fed dry food for the last ten years, they switched over to wet with no problem at all. Guess we were lucky.
 
I'm just not going to really "know" whether the Caninsulin is working properly until my testing kit arrives and I can start getting his BG's a couple times a day. He's been moved up to 3 units twice a day, and his response is inconsistent from what I can tell via the amount of pee in the litter box. His appetite is much better though, and I think it could be related to a round of antibiotics that the vet put him on last weekend to kill any underlying infection that didn't show up on the blood panel. This of course, can interfere (the infection, that is) with the work of the insulin. I'll just feel better when I can test him myself and learn to interpret the curves.
 
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