Introducing Nico

[Tyleete]

This is Nico Michaelovich.
He's 9 and aside from previously being chunky, I don't know how he turned diabetic.
He eats 2 types of food. Young Again Zero, and alternates also with freshly shredded, cooked chicken with EZ Complete. He gets 0 carbs.
He used to be super playful, when a couple months ago I noticed him acting mopey. But he's lost all 3 of his big brothers within a 7mo time frame. So I thought he was just depressed. He went to the doctor, she sat nothing wrong except he went from 13 to 11lbs. He's a tiny cat and really shouldn't be over 9 so I thought this was ok. Took a thyroid test and perfect numbers. So brought him back maybe 2mo later and he just lost another 2lbs. She ran the cbc and after his glucose was 536, did the urine test that showed keyetones. I'm so scared. He's a good boy, but super skittish. He still runs and hides when a cat comes down the driveway. We just tackled him to the floor and gave his first injection now.

Question: I know it has to be every 12hrs, but I screwed up the time and made it at 8:30.
But now realize he's going to require 2 people and my husband leaves at 6:20am every day. How do I fix this? Do I shorten it just by a 1/2hr each time until I get it down to that hour?
Will that work? Tonight was his first shot, just the 1 unit twice a day.
And the doc says feed him only twice a day. But he currently eats 4x a day. He can't eat that much at once. Will this be ok?
I don't know about spreadsheets yet, but will read on it and try it when I can breathe right again. Will post his labs here in the meantime if that's OK. Thanks!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Hello and welcome. I see you've got Nico on a good insulin for cats, started him on a low carb diet, and I see a blood glucose meter listed. You are doing all the right things. Just a FYI, you don't need to feed just zero carbs, most people feed in the 3-6% carb region. Some cats actually do a bit better with a few carbs.

Regarding feeding, you don't need to feed just twice a day. Try to feed most of his food in the six hours or so after his shot. We have cats here who are grazers, and that works too. The guidelines to feed just twice a day were for the older style insulins, not necessary with Prozinc. How is his appetite now? Many kitties out of DKA have nausea. You do need to make sure a cat recently out of DKA gets about one and a half times the calories as usual.

When you say he needs to two people, is that for testing or injecting insulin or ? We might have some tips to help you there. Some people start out wrapping their cats in towels in order to handle them.

Have you started testing his blood sugar yet? Questions about dosing are more easily answered if we have an idea what his blood sugars look like. You can start moving his shot time up by 1/2 hour per day, but depending on his blood sugars maybe faster than that.

Are you testing him at home for ketones? Tips to catch and test a urine sample

 

[JL and Chip]

Welcome to the board! Take a deep breath, you’re not in this alone. We’re here to help you.

I see from your signature that Niko has asthma. How is it being treated?

 

[Tyleete]

Hello and welcome. I see you've got Nico on a good insulin for cats, started him on a low carb diet, and I see a blood glucose meter listed. You are doing all the right things. Just a FYI, you don't need to feed just zero carbs, most people feed in the 3-6% carb region. Some cats actually do a bit better with a few carbs.

Regarding feeding, you don't need to feed just twice a day. Try to feed most of his food in the six hours or so after his shot. We have cats here who are grazers, and that works too. The guidelines to feed just twice a day were for the older style insulins, not necessary with Prozinc. How is his appetite now? Many kitties out of DKA have nausea. You do need to make sure a cat recently out of DKA gets about one and a half times the calories as usual.

When you say he needs to two people, is that for testing or injecting insulin or ? We might have some tips to help you there. Some people start out wrapping their cats in towels in order to handle them.

Have you started testing his blood sugar yet? Questions about dosing are more easily answered if we have an idea what his blood sugars look like. You can start moving his shot time up by 1/2 hour per day, but depending on his blood sugars maybe faster than that.

Are you testing him at home for ketones? Tips to catch and test a urine sample

As for the food, it was the best I could find for my cat(s), so I went with that. I like YA because there isn't a single thing in its ingredients that doesn't need to be. No plant protein which is a total waste, starches, or anything else they put in cart foods that's just filler.
Why feed more food 6hrs after? And why do DKA cats get nauseous? My vet didn't bother to mention that. :/ Can they take Ondansetron? Thanks to other cats with issues, I always have plenty of that around. Alas with the calorie uptake, I just feed him as much as he wants? Because he will love that news. How long do I keep that going? He's only had the 1shot so far, but up until now he can never get enough food. He eats nearly 7oz of chicken per day, with another at least 7oz in its broth. I can toss in some of the YA kibble to supplement for him. He loves that stuff.
I do not have anything to measure keytones yet, and didn't see any brands mentioned in the link, are there any preferred? Trying to get his pee is definitely going to be a challenge. He's one of seven cats. I haven't tested his glucose numbers at home yet. My vet said to give him his shots twice a day, give him 200ml in fluids over the weekend, and test Monday. So the hard part of holding him is so far just to give him the shot. I'll try the bundling this morning and see if that works. We found him as a 5mo baby (though the vet thought he was only 10 weeks until she examined his mouth, due to severe malnutrition) at a home we were looking at 8.5yrs ago. He came running out from under the shed and he was in such bad shape we just took him home with us. He's been such a sweet kitty, but still afraid of his own shadow. So just catching him is a chore. He's never liked being picked up, and I didn't push that on him. Holding him down to do the shot was so not easy as he desperately tried to get away. I've had cats I had to give cerenia shots to, and can be a piece of cake. Him? While he can lovingly sit on your lap, he's still pretty wild.
Thanks!

 

[Tyleete]

Welcome to the board! Take a deep breath, you’re not in this alone. We’re here to help you.

I see from your signature that Niko has asthma. How is it being treated?

We used to just give him a small round of Pred. But obviously those days are over. I haven't even bothered to try him with an asthma inhaler as I know he's a bit psycho with the whole holding down thing. I have 2 others with asthma as well, while 1 takes her inhaler via aerocat chamber, the other is even nuttier than him about being held down. He gets 5mg of Zyrtec daily to help. I was thinking of trying the inhaler after this latest emergency passes, but considering trying it while he's held down now? I just fear him constantly hiding from me due to this.

 

[Tyleete]

This was what I got from her this morning. And yes, she's great and gave me her cell number to text with questions. I do cat & wildlife rescue, so she's extremely giving.
But she reiterated that multiple meals is bad and blamed it to do with the blood sugar.
But my cat simply won't eat at least 6oz at once.
I don't want to mess him up though. Is there an amount of time I should wait between his shot and feeding him again? Is it just old school mentality as stated before you think? I know vets don't have the time to constantly research.
Thanks
Oh! And I have him his first inhaler treatment while I had him burrito-style for the shot. Took it like a champ.

 

[squeem3]

Yes, cats can take odansetron for nausea. Ask your vet for the proper dosage with what you have on hand. Many diabetic cats occasionally have pancreatitis and odanesteron is commonly given.

Any pharmacy sells urine test strips that test for ketones. Ketostix is one brand but there are others. You need a fresh sample of pee, not wet litter. Try confining the cat to one room for a day with a brand new clean litter box. You don't need to put litter in the box but if you need something, you need the special non-asbsorbant litter or something like clean fish tank pebbles.

 

[Tim & Pookey]

But she reiterated that multiple meals is bad and blamed it to do with the blood sugar.
But my cat simply won't eat at least 6oz at once.

Our vet told us this too when we started, no way would my guy eat all that food in one go. We got the same advice you just did when we landed here about multiple smaller meals, and I know that was a big factor for us eventually getting off insulin.

We’re probably the extreme, but we feed 12 times throughout the day, down to the minute with an auto feeder.

 

[Tyleete]

"I know that was a big factor for us eventually getting off insulin."
So yours went into remission? Was it from following the vets advice or giving multiple small meals?
This idea of giving a diabetic cat 2 meals, while humans are told you have to have about 5 small meals in order to keep your blood sugar regulated throughout the entire day, never made sense to me.
Does it matter how long between giving him his shot and eating again?
I'm just feeling so overwhelmed. Nico is going to be scarred from this psychologically from this. I just know he is. I had to chase him around the house for about 3 minutes before I got him into a room where we could do the deed.:/
Most of mine eat 4x a day. But last year I lost 4 seniors and 1 was on raw rabbit and ate 8x a day, while the other was hyperthyroidism and ate that many times as well. Because of my cats with all their medical conditions, I've only gone on holiday once in the last 12yrs for a whole 2 days. We were supposed to go away for another 2 days in 2 weeks. But I just canceled it last night. No one else is going to be able to deal with him.
Is there a chance a cat can go into remission if they have keytones? The doc said that meant he was farther along.

 

[Tyleete]

Yes, cats can take odansetron for nausea. Ask your vet for the proper dosage with what you have on hand. Many diabetic cats occasionally have pancreatitis and odanesteron is commonly given.

Any pharmacy sells urine test strips that test for ketones. Ketostix is one brand but there are others. You need a fresh sample of pee, not wet litter. Try confining the cat to one room for a day with a brand new clean litter box. You don't need to put litter in the box but if you need something, you need the special non-asbsorbant litter or something like clean fish tank pebbles.

Thanks! How soon after starting insulin should I test for this? And how often do I test for it? Is it something that will go away eventually, even if the diabetes doesn't? I'll go look up the strips now.

 

[Tim & Pookey]

So yours went into remission? Was it from following the vets advice or giving multiple small meals?

Yes, multiple small meals!

Nico is going to be scarred from this psychologically from this.

Believe it or not, a lot of cats get used to the process. Especially if you do some positive reinforcement around test time.

Does it matter how long between giving him his shot and eating again?

Maybe @Suzanne & Darcy can comment for Prozinc.

Hang in there. It’s admirable what you’re doing for Nico and the rest of your crew!

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Regarding the urinalysis _ did they give you a Urine Specific Gravity (USG)? He is adorable.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

I’m probably repeating what others have said, but please feed him multiple small meals throughout the early portion of the cycle. With many of my new ProZinc members, I have them start with mini meals at +2, +4 and +6, if needed. That’s two, four and six hours after the shot. We can tweak that as you go along if necessary. It’s just a good starting point since ProZinc will onset (begin to lower BG) at about +2 in many cats. Multiple smaller meals of low carb food during the early half of the cycle when the insulin is at its strongest will help to smooth the cycle and prevent rapid drops. If you can get a spreadsheet set up, I will be able to help you with your dosing.

Please test for ketones either with the urine strips or a blood ketone meter because I am concerned about his ketones, and we must keep him out of DKA. Whether he has ketones will determine how quickly we will need to adjust his insulin dose.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Is there a chance a cat can go into remission if they have keytones? The doc said that meant he was farther along.

Ketones just mean he’s not getting enough insulin and his BG is too high so he can’t make use of his food.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Here’s a sticky note explaining ketones.
Ketones, Ketoacidosis, and Diabetic Cats: A Primer on Ketones

Drop me a line if you have any questions about anything. Good luck with the testing!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

If tracking the wild pee is going to be a challenge, there are also blood meters for ketones. Blood Ketone Meters. Keto Mojo is another brand and I think it's test strips are cheaper than the others mentioned in the post.

As far trying to feed most of the food in first about six hours of the cycle (time between shots), that's because the insulin is stronger then. We also suggest that new members don't feed in the two hours before the next shot, otherwise the food can influence the blood sugar test value done just before giving insulin. We want to make sure the preshot blood test value is safe to give insulin.

Don't feed him as much as he wants. Many of our diabetics were too "fluffy" to start. You can feed him a bit more. If you have a scale, it's a good idea to weigh him periodically and making sure his weight is trending in the direction you want.

 

[squeem3]

It's ok to ignore the vet's advice about food and when to feed

If testing from the ear is too hard, there is a meter that stick onto the cat's skin for about 2 weeks before it needs to be replaced. The readings are sent to an app on your phone. Someone posted info here for another newbie: New Member - Mr. Nile

 

[Tyleete]

I only had the test results they gave me above.
The labs say 15mg. I was looking at the ketostix colors test results, and Nico's lab results.
-Does that mean it falls in the 'small' zone? And how do these work the same whether your a human or cat?
How often do I have to do these tests? He's 1 of 7 cats, which means I will have to do what was suggested before and sequester him in a room and probably sit in there with him till he finally pees. Since it had to be fresh. That's probably not going to be something I can do every single day I would think. I may not have much of a life, but he's not my only responsibility.

I've been reading as much as I can before my eyes and brain feel like they're about to bleed. But it's still all confusing. Like 1 article says if your cat has dka, it has to be hospitalized? My vet said he has ketones in his urine & that he has diabetes mellitus. Is that not the same thing? She gave the poor guy 300ml which was so much he was leaking, while we were there. But nothing intravenous as I read they must get. So what's the difference (if there is any) in dka or just having ketones in the urine?
I read but didn't understand this at ALL.
" If a cat is showing trace ketones but is still eating, drinking, and is bright and alert, it is possible to increase the % calories from carbs of food (even up to high carb) in order to increase the insulin dose."
What?
More reading of this just scares me to death. Thinking he should be in the hospital? And truth is, I'm just about completely out of money for that. Just last month I had a cat in there with an unknown ailment for 24hrs that cost over $2,500. And Nico cost nearly $500 to get him diagnosed.
But that articles sounds awful.

 

[Tyleete]

We also suggest that new members don't feed in the two hours before the next shot, otherwise the food can influence the blood sugar test value done just before giving insulin. We want to make sure the preshot blood test value is safe to give insulin.

My vet said to feed him, THEN give the shot within a half hour. Is that wrong? I swear for every thing I read, something else says the complete opposite and I'm so confused.
When am I supposed to take the blood glucose test?

 

[squeem3]

Always test blood glucose levels before giving insulin. That way you know what the level is and if it's at a safe enough level for insulin to be given, usually anything over 150 mg/dl.

You can ignore the vet. Many vets aren't familiar with treating diabetes or keep up to date on the newest treatments. Many newbies end up finding a new vet who is more well versed in treating diabetes or are willing to learn along with them.

The routine is test blood glucose level, feed, give insulin. This can all happen in a matter of minutes. There's no need to wait half an hour to give insulin. The only exception might be Humulin N which is a harsh short acting insulin that few vets prescribe now since there are better insulin choices. Having food in the tummy softens the effect of N.

@Suzanne & Darcy

 

[Tyleete]

He was at 536 for the glucose just yesterday. Do I really need to test after only 1 day of giving 1 unit of insulin twice a day?
The vet had said to wait till Monday to test him. I ask, because once I wrangle him, bundle him up and stab his ear? He's not going to eat for quite a while. Stress really affects him and he freaks out and hides for hours.

 

[squeem3]

Yes. You need to start testing now. It'll give you peace of mind knowing what your cat's level is. Ignore the vet (again). Blindly giving insulin is dangerous. What if your cat was at 70, a normal blood glucose level, and you gave the full amount of insulin? You risk hypoglycemia in a few hours. Insulin can pack a punch.

A cat might drop too low in the cycle even if the pre shot level was high. It happens. My previous diabetic tested well in the 300s one day. He got his normal amount of insulin and ate all his food. Three hours later his blood glucose level was 38 . He had no symptoms of hypoglycemia but I knew something was just off.

Do you know if the 536 was from a fructosamine test or the regular test that is included with routine blood work? The regular test just tells you what the level is at the time of blood draw. Stress causes blood glucose levels to skyrocket in many cats. A fructosamine test gives the average blood glucose level over the past few weeks and is a better indicator of diabetes along with common symptoms.

Many cats don't like being tested at first but soon get used to it. Low carb treats help. Hometesting Links and Tips

A Libre meter can be used for cats who just don't tolerate ear or paw pad testing. You do need to know how to test by ear or paw pad as a back up if the Libre falls off or malfunctions (apparently it happens).

 

[Tyleete]

I ended up giving him his shot before the reply, but will start tomorrow. He's just so afraid.
Today I had to chase him into a room, had my friend help me hold him down for the stick and inhaler he's needed a while now. Then he hid the entire day. Only came out around 5pm. He's always been a timid scardey cat. And this is certainly not helping that.
He also only ate about half his normal amount today. Normally he's starving no matter how much I feed him. Not today. Just hid.
I'm afraid if I hold him down and stab his ear to check his levels, he's just going to do what he did today. His in the box and not eat.
What do I do when he doesn't eat? I can't give him insulin on an empty stomach can I? And no, force feeding is not an option with this cat.
And thanks for the help.

 

[msamara3]

"I know that was a big factor for us eventually getting off insulin."
So yours went into remission? Was it from following the vets advice or giving multiple small meals?
This idea of giving a diabetic cat 2 meals, while humans are told you have to have about 5 small meals in order to keep your blood sugar regulated throughout the entire day, never made sense to me.
Does it matter how long between giving him his shot and eating again?
I'm just feeling so overwhelmed. Nico is going to be scarred from this psychologically from this. I just know he is. I had to chase him around the house for about 3 minutes before I got him into a room where we could do the deed.:/
Most of mine eat 4x a day. But last year I lost 4 seniors and 1 was on raw rabbit and ate 8x a day, while the other was hyperthyroidism and ate that many times as well. Because of my cats with all their medical conditions, I've only gone on holiday once in the last 12yrs for a whole 2 days. We were supposed to go away for another 2 days in 2 weeks. But I just canceled it last night. No one else is going to be able to deal with him.
Is there a chance a cat can go into remission if they have keytones? The doc said that meant he was farther along.

I know this sounds crazy but my cat was eventually cool with all of it, the stabbing of the ear, the insulin shots etc. If you tent him the right way I doubt they feel it much. As for the BG test, I put a thing behind his ear to avoid stabbing myself, and just shoot him in the ear, just using the lancet. we also give him his special treats at the same time so he has started showing up for his insulin. I have to say, I think he also knows the shot makes him feel better. Don't give up, it's not impossible, and the more calm you are the easier it is. I found putting him on a table with someone else holding him there made it easier, and I made sure the lighting was good on his ear. If you stab him in the right spot it's not bad, and I can attest to this as I stabbed myself more than him with the lancet when I first started a few months ago. It seems crazy that they can get used to this but they totally can and it can turn into a nice experience for the cat, believe it or not. I'm new here and I'm new to the diabetes thing with cats, since he's only diagnosed a few months ago. I think it's an old timey idea to only feed the cats 2x a day, and we have been letting my cat eat a few times a day with 2 shots spaced 12 hours apart and he is fine.

 

[Tyleete]

I know this sounds crazy but my cat was eventually cool with all of it, the stabbing of the ear, the insulin shots etc. If you tent him the right way I doubt they feel it much. As for the BG test, I put a thing behind his ear to avoid stabbing myself, and just shoot him in the ear, just using the lancet. we also give him his special treats at the same time so he has started showing up for his insulin. I have to say, I think he also knows the shot makes him feel better.

That would be nice indeed.
But I don't ever think this cat will look forward to it. I asked my husband... What can we do to make this less stressful for him? He just replied, he's stressed because he's still afraid of his own shadow. And therein lies the problem.
Right now I'm worried that if I stab his ear, he's not going to eat after. So I won't be able to give him his insulin.
I actually asked my husband tonight.... It's stress crying a regular thing? Or just a woman thing?
He said woman thing.

 

[JL and Chip]

So my last diabetic was a former feral. We spent 17 years coexisting. I could get within 6 inches of her, but she would not let me touch her, ever.

It was an adventure when she was diagnosed diabetic. And we started out in diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). Ugh. That was a challenge extraordinaire.

By the way, ketones can lead to DKA or sometimes indicate DKA, but showing ketones does not necessarily mean the cat is actively in DKA. DKA also has metabolic changes associated, including electrolyte imbalances. DKA can be life threatening, which is why we always recommending keeping a close eye on ketones to ensure they don’t lead to something more dangerous.

Back to my feral kitty … as timid and skittish as she was, we figured it out and I was ultimately able to BG test, ketone test, and give her insulin shots.

Although I hated to do it, in the early days I had to keep her isolated from the others so I could simply catch her, as well as monitor food/water intake, ketones, and how she was acting. Basically I needed to keep eyes on her. I set up a screen so she could see the others but had her own area and her own food/water/litterbox/beds/etc. If she retreated to one of her houses, I could gently corral her or pick up the entire bed and gently move it to our testing area. Sometimes I let her hide in her soft-sided bed and I gently pulled an ear out of the corner to get the test. Other times I wrapped her in a towel with only an ear sticking out. Covering her eyes helped. It was also very important that I didn’t chase her around ahead of time and get her all scared and amped up. Equally important, *I* needed to stay calm during the process because she would pick up on my energy. Quiet reassuring words or even singing softly can sometimes help.

It is truly important to be able to test before giving a shot as well as during a cycle because BG is not static. Not testing is sort of like driving down the road with a bag over your head — you really are guessing at where you’re going and are risking a crash along the way.

Some who have fractious or skittish cats will use the Libre attached to the cat’s back. That’s hit and miss — some cats ignore it, others tear it off. But it’s an option to consider if manual testing isn’t going to work for you.

I know most vets don’t encourage home testing, but part of that is if treatment sounds too intimidating, many people will choose to PTS or dump the cat at a shelter (same end result, of course). You’re here, clearly you don’t fit in that category. But it is daunting to get the diagnosis and try to sort it all out.

Regarding ketone testing … aquarium gravel can be used in the box to help get a sample. I also have a Smart Kitty Box that funnels the urine into a reservoir which you can then pull a sample from for ketone testing. Last I checked, Amazon still sold them. Because my girl had been in actual DKA and struggled with ketones, I ultimately used a blood ketone meter.

Take a deep breath. We’ve all been where you’re at and will help you. Sometimes it takes some experimentation and tweaking to figure out what will work with your cat, but we’re all in it for the cats and there are years of cumulative experience here.

 

[Tyleete]

So my last diabetic was a former feral. We spent 17 years coexisting. I could get within 6 inches of her, but she would not let me touch her, ever.

Regarding ketone testing … aquarium gravel can be used in the box to help get a sample. I also have a Smart Kitty Box that funnels the urine into a reservoir which you can then pull a sample from for ketone testing. Last I checked, Amazon still sold them. Because my girl had been in actual DKA and struggled with ketones, I ultimately used a blood ketone meter.

Take a deep breath. We’ve all been where you’re at and will help you. Sometimes it takes some experimentation and tweaking to figure out what will work with your cat, but we’re all in it for the cats and there are years of cumulative experience here.

Do you remember what it was called? That smart litter box? I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything except litter robots.
Yeah, my boy I consider still slightly feral. He loves love, and on occasion will even sit in my lap. But you try to pick him up and he freaks out. A car pulling up to the house, any loud noise? He goes into flight mode. Right now, needless to say, he's back hiding. Here's my current problem...

He took his shot Wed night with help from my husband. Nights have been easier with my husband. At least he knows him. Last 2 mornings I had to have my neighbor come help me. Freaks him out more, but we're not at the point for me to do it alone yet. I'll have my husband in the mornings from now on if I can work it.
But today he refused to eat this morning.
I left food out for him last night, but he was already eating it as I left him around midnight. I put his food down like I always do in the morning. He drank the broth (which luckily had the CBD, and crushed zyrtec & ondansetron), but didn't eat a bit of his chicken. He eats shredded, baked chicken in broth with EZ Complete. I also offered kibble he likes (it's diabetic food), baby food, and even his new favorite, cooked beef.
He ate none of it.
Now both he and his also nutty fur sister are hiding away. He didn't come out till 5pm yesterday, his sister not till 7pm.
So today no eating. I sent a text to my doctor when by 7:40am today, he hadn't eaten. I asked, skip the shot or force feed. She said force feed. I only got around 15ml of ham baby food in him.
How much is enough if I have to do this again? I guess force feeding is needed if he won't eat? And I know it's supposed to be ever 12hrs, but how long can they go when I'm trying to get him to eat on his own in the morning?
I plan to either have my husband help me before he leaves for work (we're trying to change the time slowly to make this happen), so hopefully less stress. I think I might be able to do that part on my own. But know he won't sit for me to stab his ear alone.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Even diabetic cats undergoing anaesthesia who cannot eat, can still get a half dose of insulin. Insulin does more than combat carbs in the food in their bodies. I'm more worried about recent DKA and him not eating. Have you tried everything in this list:

• Suggestions on How to Stimulate Kitty's Appetite

I used to try to get 2/3 of Neko's calories into her when she didn't eat.

One litter box that isolates pee is the Tidy Cats Breeze litter system.

 

[Tyleete]

Even diabetic cats undergoing anaesthesia who cannot eat, can still get a half dose of insulin. Insulin does more than combat carbs in the food in their bodies. I'm more worried about recent DKA and him not eating. Have you tried everything in this list:

• Suggestions on How to Stimulate Kitty's Appetite

Which is better? Force feeding him some baby food? Or giving half a dose (which will only be half of 1 unit) without food?
He didn't fight me too bad on the force feeding. Probably because I had my neighbor there.
Thank you for that litter box info. I'm ordering one through Walmart for free shipping.
I am SO broke right now. It cost almost $500 just to have him diagnosed. She wants to do a glucose curve I think in 2weeks? But that's over another $300. I'm going to talk to her about me doing it at home. I've seriously spent over 12k in just the last year on vet visits and ER alone. I only have another $1,500 before everything goes onto the cc now.
As for his eating? He eats decent enough the rest of the time. I think he's realizing we do the holding down thing slowly after he eats his breakfast. He gets like that whenever he knows something's going on and different around feeding times. He'll hide. I'm pretty sure that's what he was doing, as later he ate some. But I'll look at that page too.
I just see this being a problem for his morning insulin shot. Him fearing and hiding

 

[Tyleete]

Oh! I can't use those pellets, right? That comes with the litter box?
And do you know how often I'm supposed to be checking for ketones?
Also, how do I know if he has dka? She only said ketones and the cbc said the 536 for glucose. She didn't say if dka. Which worried me after, cause I read if they have that they should be in the ER.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Your vet should have given you any blood work results and diagnosis. Call the clinic and ask for it if you don't have it. His electrolytes will be off if DKA.

It's best if he has food and some insulin, I wouldn't pick feeding or insulin.

As long as you are home testing, no need for him to go into the clinic for a curve.

 

[Tyleete]

Your vet should have given you any blood work results and diagnosis. Call the clinic and ask for it if you don't have it. His electrolytes will be off if DKA.

This is what all I was given. Since we knew something was wrong, we did it in house as we wanted quick results. She suspected diabetes after his last weight loss. Normally we send tests off.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

OK, so no formal diagnosis of DKA? I'd still test for ketones when his blood sugar numbers are high. Ketones can go from trace to high quite quickly. Anything above trace warrants a vet visit.

 

[Tyleete]

I just now checked his blood glucose before dinner (which he has yet to eat) and it was 449.
And, now he's hiding again. He drank his broth and ate a whole 0.2oz of his shredded chicken.
This is going to be my problem. I stab his ear, he hides, I can't give him his insulin because he's refusing to eat.
And tomorrow I'm supposed to traumatize him a little more while I stick him to do subqs.
Any particular time that's best around his shots for that? :/

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I can't give him his insulin because he's refusing to eat.

As above, you can give at least half a dose safely. I don't know what dose you are giving and what his blood sugar history is. With a spreadsheet perhaps I could suggest more. Try not to think of it as stabbing, but rather pricking the ears where they don't have much nerves. Make sure you are rewarding him each time with a treat. Whether or not you are successful with getting enough blood to do a test.

Try to separate the subq in distance from the insulin shots. I tended to give subq in the last half of the insulin cycle, and the insulin is wearing off then and numbers rising. For some cats, not all, numbers are lower with subq on board. But at 449, that is so high it wouldn't matter.

 

[Tyleete]

As above, you can give at least half a dose safely. I don't know what dose you are giving and what his blood sugar history is. With a spreadsheet perhaps I could suggest more. Try not to think of it as stabbing, but rather pricking the ears where they don't have much nerves. Make sure you are rewarding him each time with a treat. Whether or not you are successful with getting enough blood to do a test.

Try to separate the subq in distance from the insulin shots. I tended to give subq in the last half of the insulin cycle, and the insulin is wearing off then and numbers rising. For some cats, not all, numbers are lower with subq on board. But at 449, that is so high it wouldn't matter.

He's only at 1unit twice a day. His numbers at the very were 536. Don't know if his stress made it more there or not. His first shot was Wed night.
He finally came out when I sat on the loo and started singing. I think he feels I'm defenseless there and can't get him. It's the 2nd time I've had the food waiting for this. Don't worry, not using it, just sitting on the lid as it seems to disarm him.
With his numbers so high, so I have to keep stabbing him in the ear for the next day or two? I'm guessing that's why the vet said don't worry about testing till Monday? I just prefer him getting used to the rest without him hiding after and worrying about him not eating. Since this was only his 2nd day and he sure doesn't seem in fear of hypo.
Also! I was about to order 100 test strips when I saw it came to $100.
Are a human monitors and test strips as good? Are they hard to figure out? Someone once told me to get a ReliOn, but my vet was very insistent it be a pet one.
And thank youryourmuch to you and everyone helping me. This is so stressful. But I know I'd be in worst shape without the help. So thank your so much

 

[Wendy&Neko]

We test at preshot to make sure it's safe to give insulin. We also try to get some tests in the middle of the cycle between shots, to see how low the insulin dose is taking the kitty. High preshots don't tell you that. My girl once started the day at 470 and her low point about 7 hours later was 49. And back up over 300 by the next shot time. Needless to say, that insulin dose was too high. But I wouldn't have known that without testing. We've also seen brand new people fight low numbers. One of the reasons we believe in starting at a lower dose and working your way up. For some cats (not mine), even 1 unit is a lot of insulin. ECID = every cat is different.

As far as meters go, yes! The vast majority of people use human meters. I think the Relion Premier is a common one, from Walmart. Something like $9 for 100 strips? Not sure, they aren't available in Canada. Some vets really pressure caregivers to buy pet meters, but the cost is way more. Our dosing methods were written back in the day before pet meters were even a thing and designed for human meters. We'd rather you save money and get more tests to keep kitty safe. Look for cheap test strips, which is what you go through a lot, and small blood drop requirements.

 

[JL and Chip]

Do you remember what it was called? That smart litter box? I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything except litter robots.

It was called Smart Cat Box. Unfortunately all of my Amazon bookmarks show it as unavailable now and it looks like the company website is no longer live. Sorry about that.

In case you’re interested, here’s what it looked like. It used a clean, non absorbent pelleted material or birdseed as the “litter” and the way it funneled urine to the reservoir was pretty slick. You could also get wall panels to increase the height.

Amazon.com: SMART CAT BOX Starter Kit - Cat Litter Box - Preferred for Reducing Odor & Easy Cleaning - Made in The USA White : Pet Supplies

I’m going to keep my eyes open for used ones. I got mine many, many years ago when they were sold via a link on FDMB.

I believe the website was smartcatbox.com (again, doesn’t appear to be a live website) and perhaps made by Providence House Manufacturing. Now I’m curious, so I’ll have to poke around the internet some more to see what I can find and also maybe check out eBay.

 

[Tyleete]

Ok. I think I'll try a late afternoon reading then. But will my giving him interfere with a reading? I can wait the next day to try that if so.
I'm so glad I asked about the meter. I was about to blow $70 on those. I know I saw something in here about figuring out the meters to get 'cat numbers', so I'll go back and look.
Question about the numbers you gave. You said they were quite high before feeding and the shots. But then dropped so low in between. Is there no way to get answer keep our cats at a good, steady number full time? Sounds awful taxing on their little bodies and hearts.
Does eating raise or lower their numbers? And how do subq actually help the numbers? It's regular (every couple days) subs going to be a permanent thing?
I gave my doc the number (449) tonight via text. It's how she prefers me message her instead of just emailing her like I used to. He went from 536 Wed to 449 this evening before food. And this was her reply...
"That is better".
Not much to go on.
And yes, I agree 100% in starting meds low and going up. I've had 2 hyperthyroid cats and listened to their crazy... 'We start high' crap, with the 1st one. That poor boy was a yoyo with his numbers and they kept 'adjusting'. With the second I found a Facebook group for cats with that, and they told me what you said. Stay lowest, test, adjust as needed. She did do much better.

 

[Tyleete]

It was called Smart Cat Box. Unfortunately all of my Amazon bookmarks show it as unavailable now and it looks like the company website is no longer live. Sorry about that.

In case you’re interested, here’s what it looked like. It used a clean, non absorbent pelleted material or birdseed as the “litter” and the way it funneled urine to the reservoir was pretty slick. You could also get wall panels to increase the height.

Amazon.com: SMART CAT BOX Starter Kit - Cat Litter Box - Preferred for Reducing Odor & Easy Cleaning - Made in The USA White : Pet Supplies

I’m going to keep my eyes open for used ones. I got mine many, many years ago when they were sold via a link on FDMB.

I believe the website was smartcatbox.com (again, doesn’t appear to be a live website) and perhaps made by Providence House Manufacturing. Now I’m curious, so I’ll have to poke around the internet some more to see what I can find and also maybe check out eBay.

Thanks! Someone suggested this one which is even less expensive and available to boot! Just don't put the pee pad down. I don't know if I can use that litter though, if it would interfere with the test. So bought fish pebbles the same color as my boy's current litter. Here's to hoping.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

I also have an asthma kitty and highly recommend using the inhaled steroids (Flixotide) using the Aerokat inhaler. You do have to train them to use ot though if you want to not have to fight them all the time for the rest of their lives. You would avoid the systemic affects of oral steroids with the inhaler. Aerokat has a lot of tips and videos (youtube and their website) to show how to go about training your cat to accept the inhaler. If you are currently using oral steroids for the asthma, you should know that it takes about two weeks for the inhaled medication to reach therapeutic levels in the cat so continue to use the oral steroids and then gradually taper them off (ask your vet for a tapering schedule) while you keep using the inhaled medication twice a day. I highly recommend a groups.io asthma group called Feline Asthma and Respiratory Disorders. They can even help you get started with an inhaler of Flixotide. Right now, we are having some difficulties getting inhalers because we order them from either Canada or the island of Vanuatu (because the U.S. prices for Flucatisone/Flixotide are outrageous) and shipments have been delayed due to uncertainty about tariffs (although I did some research and found that the inhalers themselves are not subject to tariffs) and shipments coming into the United States.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

I will be ready to help you when you get your spreadsheet set up. Just write down any tests you get for now and the number of hours after the shot was given.

 

[squeem3]

If testing from the ear is not doable, please look into the Libre meter. It sticks to the cat's skin and continuously monitors blood glucose levels. The readings are sent to an app on your phone. No need to fuss with an ear or a hiding cat, although you do need to know how to test from the ear as a back up just in case. The vet will put the first meter on and you can put the meter on after that. The meter is supposed to last 2 weeks but it can fall off or malfunction before then. @Staci & Ivy is one member who uses the Libre on her spicy cat. There are other members.

My diabetic also has asthma but he takes a steroid to control it. The steroid also helps his IBD. My previous diabetic also had asthma and he took inhaled Flovent with the AeroKat device.

 

[Suzanne & Darcy]

Prednisolone and/or other steroids do elevate blood glucose, but if there’s no other way around it… then we just have to adjust insulin. I currently work with another ProZinc member whose cat absolutely must have a pretty big steroid dose daily due to severe Triaditis. Other groups were very judgmental and harsh about giving a diabetic cat steroids, so they were happy to come here to get help! Together we have managed to get this cat into really fantastic BG numbers (blues and greens on the spreadsheet so between mostly 50-150). He’s on a larger dose than most cats due to the steroid, but he’s much healthier and happier now that we have gotten him well regulated on ProZinc.

 

[Tyleete]

Nico has been taking the inhaler as long as he's been taking the shots. I figured while I'm traumatizing him with one, might as well go for broke!
Question though. I've been giving him crushed ondansetron daily as he didn't seem to want to eat much the first bit after his shots. Sometime mentioned coming off of ketones could make him nauseous. But he's still not eating like his usual self. Drink a lot still, but he used to be a non stop pig. Could it be this is just him normal? Even though his numbers are still quite high? I know a side effect from taking the drug call also be nausea.:/ So wasn't sure if I should stop

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Question about the numbers you gave. You said they were quite high before feeding and the shots. But then dropped so low in between. Is there no way to get answer keep our cats at a good, steady number full time? Sounds awful taxing on their little bodies and hearts.
Does eating raise or lower their numbers? And how do subq actually help the numbers? It's regular (every couple days) subs going to be a permanent thing?

• Like Wendy, my kitty was quite capable of being in the 400s at pre-shot, dropping into the 40s and bouncing back into the 400s by the next shot time. Ultimately, getting your cat on a dose of insulin that brings the numbers into a consistently better range is what everyone looks for. Ideally, this means your cat is well regulated or may go into remission. Just keep in mind that that the process doesn't happen overnight. Getting your cat's blood glucose numbers into a better range does take time -- months, not weeks. I'd also put this in context. If you go out to a party and end up eating a meal of pasta and lots of outrageous desserts, there's a good chance you're going to spike your blood glucose level. You're probably not worrying about what your numbers were (unless you're diabetic) and I've know a number of diabetic humans who are truly bad at managing their diets. It's worse for your cat's health to feed a high carb diet and not give insulin versus having the numbers bounce.
• Eating does raise numbers because food is metabolized into a molecule that can be absorbed. All food breaks down into glucose. However, carbs form more glucose than protein. This is why a low carb diet is important. Feeding your cat is one way that we can steer blood glucose numbers if they drop too low. There are instructions on what you need in your toolbox if your cat drops into low numbers. This is typically a high carb food or adding something like corn syrup to a food your cat will reliably eat or simply rubbing syrup on your cat's gums.
• Subq fluids help to either hydrate or dilute whatever is in the bloodstream. For a cat that has ketones, the fluids dilute the ketones and help to drop those numbers. The only other time that fluids are generally recommended is for a cat with kidney disease. The fluids help to dilute the toxins that the kidneys are struggling to excrete. Once your cat is no longer producing ketones, you should be able to stop giving subqs.

It was only briefly mentioned above, but treats can help a lot to get your cat acclimated to testing. We suggest a treat that is only protein -- something like freeze dried chicken. There are a number of freeze dried proteins. The ones that are in the dog treats section are usually identical to the ones for cats but are often less expensive. (Go figure!) You want to encourage Nico to associate testing with treats. If he's not food motivated, use something he likes. Some members have cats that consider brushing a treat. Or they sing to their cat. It doesn't matter as long as you are positively reinforcing the association between testing and the treat. Many cats begin to have the light bulb go off that all of the testing and shots help them to feel better.