I need food help.

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Dylan

Dylan

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Hello everyone, I hope you are all staying safe. Of course my sugar kitty couldn't pick a better time to come out of the closet and say, "Hey I'm diabetic"! I have not had much support from the vet and am overwhelmed with making sure I do the right thing. I need some advice on wet canned food. My vet has me feeding the Purina DM food and it's getting costly. With no kibble down it's 2 cans a day for Thomas, then my other 2 cats I give some kibble to and they split a can between them. So that is 3 cans a day at almost $3.00 a can. I also have Purina DM dry kibble, can I put that down for them all to free feed all day, then the wet food at injection time? How about this following link I am gonna post, is is this a real good food for sugar kitty?

https://www.amazon.ca/Tiki-Cat-Succ...lja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

Thomas NEEDS to put on weight and muscle back. Prior to insulin his poor body took a beating and I feel so guilty.
 
Hello Dylan! My name is jeanne. Would you like to share your kitties names? Especially your extra sweet kitty?

What you need to feed your "sweetie" DOES NOT have to come from the Vet. There are good choices that are much cheaper on the supermarket shelves. Most Fancy Feast Pate"s are lower carb foods, Shy away from food that contains gravy! They have a much higher content of carbs. Also PLANT based foods, You know the ones with peas and carrots and such? Cats are obligate carnivorous. Ive never seen a cat strolling thought a vegetable patch and just start eating veggies! The link you provided is a brand some people here use.
As long as the carbs are 12% or lower you've found a good food.
Dr Lisa Pierson has a food chart at the top of the Health threads. Please click on that and do some reading . If you have questions after that PLEASE come back and ask!

WELCOME TO FDMB! The best site in the planet to help you, help your kitty, maneuver this disease. Diabetes is not a death sentence and maybe just maybe you can teach your Vet what its all about! ;)

REMEMBER you are NOT alone there are PLENTY of people here to guide you on this journey!:bighug:
 
Thank you so much Jeanne! I am looking for a different vet, but due to covid-19 it's not the right time. I have Mya She is 21yo (not diabetic), Then Thomas is 16yo (diabetic), Then I have Eva is 9yo (not diabetic). Can I leave DM dry kibble out for free feed? Thanks everyone.
 
Dylan said:
Can I leave DM dry kibble out for free feed? Thanks everyone.
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That depends. Sadly kibble of ALL kinds are PACKED with carbs. If you are already giving insulin you dont want to remove it right away. The loss of those carbs will drop your Thomas' numbers substantially. The dry must be removed slowly. What kind of insulin are you using? and if you would, can you please start a spreadsheet? hopefully @Deb&Wink will see this and help you through that process.

UGH tags arent working let me find it for you. this may take a while hold on. :(
 
I see that you said your diabetic kitty Thomas is getting lantus, a very good insulin for cats.
What dosage also? Some dates are left blank on the spreadsheet (SS) so we can't tell if it's always been 1U every day.

Yes, that Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken is a very low carb food and excellent for a diabetic cat.
But it does cost a bit. Not sure it would be less expensive than the Purina DM foods you are feeding now. Lots of good protein in the Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken.

Do you have Friskies pate style foods or Fancy Feast pate style foods in any of your local stores? Lots of places are sold out online right now, so you may have to get creative in finding diabetic cat appropriate foods. People stocked up.

Would you set up some information in your "Signature" please. Then the insulin and meter you use will be there at our fingertips. Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

Yes, the spreadsheet is there. But would you please put in 1 row for every date, even if you did not test. So my brain can see better what is going on.
 
Hi Dylan and welcome to you, Mya, Thomas and Eva.
yes I can see your SS..well done!!

I also would ditch the dry if possible for all your kitties. It’s like feeding Maccas all the time. High in carbs and only 7% moisture compared to 78% moisture in canned and raw food. So much better for the kidneys and the pancreas.
BUT to transfer over to a low carb diet for Thomas you need to do it slowly while testing the BG because removing the dry can drop the numbers by more than 100 points. Your other kitties won’t have that problem but i would do it slowly anyway to prevent digestive issues.
If Thomas has lost muscle, he needs protein to build it up over time. My Sheba lost a lot of muscle but she regained it all once things were more under control and she was on the correct diet. It takes time though.
Lantus is a great insulin for cats. Try and get some tests in too for the pm cycle. A before bed test is good every night as it will help tell you if Thomas is going to drop lower that night ( as many cats do drop lower at night ). If the before bed test is lower than the Preshot number, that is a heads up that it could be an active cycle and you may need to set the alarm and test later in the cycle.
For the neuropathy ( weak back legs) you can give Zobaline bought from lifelink online. It takes time to improve but over time and with improvements in BG it will.
 
Dylan said:
Also I just put the dry kibble down today. His curve results were on just the wet food. Does anyone know if this following food is any good?
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The Crave cat foods may be ok, have not run the Guaranteed Analysis min/max through a basic cat food carb calculator. They are tiny servings, smaller than the Purina DM. Like the Sheba Pates. I do see tapioca starch and tomatoes in the Crave food, that could raise the carb content a bit.

Ok, ran it through a basic carb calculator, and the Crave foods look reasonable. Not as accurate as "As Fed" values, but you work with what you have. Here is what I used.

http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html

Right now, it's more a factor of being able to find foods in stock. Amazon, Walmart, Target, Chewy are sold out of many foods, and the ones they do have in stock, it's taking about 10-14 days to ship right now. Everyone in the supply chain is backed up.
 
Deb & Wink said:
I see that you said your diabetic kitty Thomas is getting lantus, a very good insulin for cats.
What dosage also? Some dates are left blank on the spreadsheet (SS) so we can't tell if it's always been 1U every day.

Yes, that Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken is a very low carb food and excellent for a diabetic cat.
But it does cost a bit. Not sure it would be less expensive than the Purina DM foods you are feeding now. Lots of good protein in the Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken.

Do you have Friskies pate style foods or Fancy Feast pate style foods in any of your local stores? Lots of places are sold out online right now, so you may have to get creative in finding diabetic cat appropriate foods. People stocked up.

Would you set up some information in your "Signature" please. Then the insulin and meter you use will be there at our fingertips. Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

Yes, the spreadsheet is there. But would you please put in 1 row for every date, even if you did not test. So my brain can see better what is going on.
Click to expand...
Hello Deb, I have only done 1 curve and a few random tests. It's been since the start of insulin he is getting 1 unit every 12 hours every day. We do have fancy fest and friskies. I have never fed my cats grocery store cat food. Its always been from pet food stores. Id feel guilty feeding him that no? LOL I am actually a tad upset right now. I sent my spreadsheet to my vet to just have a quick look at it and we are gonna increase his insulin by .5 in the AM only, and they want me to pay $50.00 for them to look at my spreadsheet!
 
Hi Dylan... $50 to look at a SS and give you bad advice into the bargain!!:eek:
We recommend increases of only 0.25 units units and holding the dose for at least 6 cycles ( depends on if you are doing the TR method which is 6 cycles unless you drop under 68 or the Start Low Go Slow method and you hold the dose for 7 days unless you drop under 90.
Also Lantus likes consistent dosing because it is a depot insulin, so giving a different dose in the morning to the night time dose will stuff up the depot and give you wonky numbers.

As long as the grocery store cat food is low carb it is fine. So is pet store food as long as it’s low carb. Far better than prescription foods that are higher carb and are in no way special for cats.
alternative is feeding a raw food diet.
keep asking questions.

PS we don’t charge for looking at SS :joyful::joyful::joyful:
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Hi Dylan... $50 to look at a SS and give you bad advice into the bargain!!:eek:
We recommend increases of only 0.25 units units and holding the dose for at least 6 cycles ( depends on if you are doing the TR method which is 6 cycles unless you drop under 68 or the Start Low Go Slow method and you hold the dose for 7 days unless you drop under 90.
Furthermore Lantus likes consistent dosing because it is a depot insulin, so giving a different dose in the morning to the night time dose will stuff up the depot and give you wonky numbers.

As long as the grocery store cat food is low carb it is fine. So it pet store food as Lind as it’s low carb. Far better than prescription foods that are higher carb and are in no way special for cats.
altetnative is feeding a raw food diet.
keep asking questions.

PS we don’t charge for looking at SS :joyful::joyful::joyful:
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I am so confused.
 
No reason to feel guilty if you feed your cats grocery store bought cat food. Lots of times, the pet food stores have the same foods, but at a higher cost.

You want the pate styles of the food, the ones without gravy or added veggies or other carb sources.
But, do buy a couple of cans of the gravy foods, like Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers, to have for your hypo toolkit.

Do you have a hypo toolkit? And know what signs to look for?
How to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL! Print this Out!! has the signs to watch out for, at different levels of hypoglycemia. jojo and bunny's HYPO TOOL BOX has what you want to include in your Hypo tool box, in case your cats BG (blood glucose) levels drop too low.

Dylan said:
I am actually a tad upset right now. I sent my spreadsheet to my vet to just have a quick look at it and we are gonna increase his insulin by .5 in the AM only, and they want me to pay $50.00 for them to look at my spreadsheet!
Click to expand...
I understand how vets want to be compensated for their time and efforts. But $50 seems like a lot.

As Bron already said, lantus insulin likes consistency in the dosing. So giving a different dose in the AM and the PM would make it difficult to know what is happening with the BG levels for a particular dose. It's much better to find a dose you can give in both cycles, both AM and PM, because of that insulin "depot" or storage area effect that Lantus has.

We're not vets or vet techs, and you should always check with your vet on what we suggest. But the common thread here is that we have all had diabetic cats and successfully treated them.
 
Wow you are doing their work for them and they want to charge you? My Vet was THRILLED I kept a book of numbers (that was back before spreadsheets) She use to take my book and show it to all the other vets and staff. MAN how times have changed. They should be grateful to see your spreadsheet. I guess they have to get you one way or another. :(
 
Deb & Wink said:
No reason to feel guilty if you feed your cats grocery store bought cat food. Lots of times, the pet food stores have the same foods, but at a higher cost.

You want the pate styles of the food, the ones without gravy or added veggies or other carb sources.
But, do buy a couple of cans of the gravy foods, like Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers, to have for your hypo toolkit.

Do you have a hypo toolkit? And know what signs to look for?
How to treat HYPOS - THEY CAN KILL! Print this Out!! has the signs to watch out for, at different levels of hypoglycemia. jojo and bunny's HYPO TOOL BOX has what you want to include in your Hypo tool box, in case your cats BG (blood glucose) levels drop too low.


I understand how vets want to be compensated for their time and efforts. But $50 seems like a lot.

As Bron already said, lantus insulin likes consistency in the dosing. So giving a different dose in the AM and the PM would make it difficult to know what is happening with the BG levels for a particular dose. It's much better to find a dose you can give in both cycles, both AM and PM, because of that insulin "depot" or storage area effect that Lantus has.

We're not vets or vet techs, and you should always check with your vet on what we suggest. But the common thread here is that we have all had diabetic cats and successfully treated them.
Click to expand...

So maybe I meet in the middle with Lantus and do 1.25 AM and PM
 
To know what a good Lantus insulin dose is, a few more BG (blood glucose) tests may be helpful.

Also, what would be helpful to us, is to add more information to your signature.
Your first name, your cat's name age and sex, diagnosis date, insulin used, meter used for testing, food fed, any other medical conditions your cat has. Should take you about 60 seconds. Would you please update your "Signature" for us?

Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

Through the "magic" of computers, that signature information will be included at the end of all your posts. Retroactively.
 
Deb & Wink said:
To know what a good Lantus insulin dose is, a few more BG (blood glucose) tests may be helpful.

Also, what would be helpful to us, is to add more information to your signature.
Your first name, your cat's name age and sex, diagnosis date, insulin used, meter used for testing, food fed, any other medical conditions your cat has. Should take you about 60 seconds. Would you please update your "Signature" for us?

Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

Through the "magic" of computers, that signature information will be included at the end of all your posts. Retroactively.
Click to expand...

I think I finally figured out the Signature thing. LOL. I needed that LOL, it's been awhile.
 
Isn't "magic" and laughter wonderful?!?!
We all need some laughter and hope these days.
My motto is "Treasure Every Day."
Even if I discover a leaking liquid container in my kitchen cabinet, and have several hours of cleanup.

The sun is shining, the gardens are calling to me, and I'm going outside to "play in the dirt" and make mud pies.

Would you do some updates on your SS please? My ancient, senile brain works better if there is a row for every day. I know you probably don't have test data for all those days, but it still helps to have a row for each day. Because you probably still gave insulin to Thomas on 4/3 and 4/4 and 4/5, 4/6, 4/7 and some dates back in March 2020 too.

Would you help out a forgetful brain and put some more data on the SS (spreadsheet) please? It helps my brain to see the flow and patterns in the data better. Thanks for your consideration kind sir.

I know you came for food help, but there is so much more we can help you with.

p.s. Wow, Thomas is almost 16! I'm not that old in cat years, but getting close. ;)
 
Deb & Wink said:
Isn't "magic" and laughter wonderful?!?!
We all need some laughter and hope these days.
My motto is "Treasure Every Day."
Even if I discover a leaking liquid container in my kitchen cabinet, and have several hours of cleanup.

The sun is shining, the gardens are calling to me, and I'm going outside to "play in the dirt" and make mud pies.

Would you do some updates on your SS please? My ancient, senile brain works better if there is a row for every day. I know you probably don't have test data for all those days, but it still helps to have a row for each day. Because you probably still gave insulin to Thomas on 4/3 and 4/4 and 4/5, 4/6, 4/7 and some dates back in March 2020 too.

Would you help out a forgetful brain and put some more data on the SS (spreadsheet) please? It helps my brain to see the flow and patterns in the data better. Thanks for your consideration kind sir.

I know you came for food help, but there is so much more we can help you with.

p.s. Wow, Thomas is almost 16! I'm not that old in cat years, but getting close. ;)
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hello, he just tested for diabetes in March. I did not have a test kit yet until April they had to order me one. The results in the spreadsheet right now or just the results that I have I haven’t been checking his blood every single day. I was told that I didn’t need to.
 
Dylan said:
what food is good and bad
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Hey neighbor. The food question can be a major guilt trip so forget everything you thought you knew. I've been doing this for 40+ years and before I came here I thought Fancy Feast was pig slop in a can. A cat won't eat what it can't smell so be glad it stinks.
If you get in a serious jam we're 45 minutes west. Will be in Loblaws, Longos and maybe a Petsmart on Monday.
Do you know how to tag another member?
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
Hey neighbor. The food question can be a major guilt trip so forget everything you thought you knew. I've been doing this for 40+ years and before I came here I thought Fancy Feast was pig slop in a can. A cat won't eat what it can't smell so be glad it stinks.
If you get in a serious jam we're 45 minutes west. Will be in Loblaws, Longos and maybe a Petsmart on Monday.
Do you know how to tag another member?
Click to expand...

Hello, thank you so much for this. Yeah I said to myself I would never feed my cats grocery store crap, and of course the pet food stores say how terrible it is. I just went from Toronto to Brampton to Richmond Hill to Aurora to get all petsmart Merrick food that was on sale. The DM from the vet is killing the bank, so expensive! Some people say check his blood multiple times a day, some go a couple weeks without checking. Some say you have to feed and give the shot at the EXACT time daily and some say if you are couple hours off it’s ok. I work shifts my work times change. That’s where all this confusion comes in.
 
Dylan said:
hello, he just tested for diabetes in March. I did not have a test kit yet until April they had to order me one. The results in the spreadsheet right now or just the results that I have I haven’t been checking his blood every single day. I was told that I didn’t need to.
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Understood. You just got a test kit, for checking the blood glucose.

We are huge advocates of home testing, and think that testing every pre-shot is one of the best ways to keep your kitty safe. Safe from giving insulin if the blood glucose (BG) is too low.

It's up to you how much you test. Many vets do not encourage home testing, because they think their clients would put their cat to sleep first.

We do know that 1U of lantus insulin can take Thomas pretty low, that 110 mg/dL (6.1 mmol/L) BG on 4/10/20 at +4 showed you that. Cats usually have their lowest point, the nadir, somewhere around the +5 to +7 hour time frame with Lantus.

p.s. Hi Dickson. Very nice of you to offer to help Dylan.
 
Dylan said:
hello, he just tested for diabetes in March. I did not have a test kit yet until April they had to order me one. The results in the spreadsheet right now or just the results that I have I haven’t been checking his blood every single day. I was told that I didn’t need to.
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Hey Dylan, I’m in Ontario too! My kitty was diagnosed late 2019 and it’s been a lot of ups and downs. I have found some great advice here and just recently was told a good low carb wet food (besides fancy feast originals) is the PC brand. Cans are $0.69-$0.79 each so much more cost effective! I’m sorry your vet is trying to charge you to look at a spreadsheet! That’s outrageous! My vet welcomed the spreadsheet but only for the curves. They never told me to check BG prior to injecting which I am now going to do (thanks to the people on this forum :D).

I had also looked up the Tiki cat as a good no carb food but the price is nearly as expensive as the DM. I currently feed kitten the royal canin diabetic dry but will be transitioning her to a 50/50 dry/wet combo with the PC brand of food. There was someone who commented on my post with this awesome spreadsheet of Canadian food comparisons:
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Waving from the Kawarthas.

Lantus.
You can walk into any pharmacy and buy Lantus. Only humans need a prescription. Just say it is for your cat. Ask for the package of 5 vials – roughly $120. You can use it to the last drop and the package will last you a long time. Chances are the large vial of Lantus will probably expire before you use it up.

Strips.
Alpha Trak strips are crazy expensive. Even human strips are expensive in Canada (but the insulin is much cheaper than in the US). A lot of people use a human meter - FreeStyle Lite. It takes a small drop of blood. Strips are roughly $80 for 100. You will be going through more strips than you think. It is worthwhile saving PC points and using them to buy the strips at Shoppers Drug Mart. If you are a senior or have a senior relative close by, take advantage of their Seniors Days. Some people check Ebay for deals.

There is a human glucometre with very cheap strips. The downside is that it takes a much larger drop of blood and I found it read higher than the FreeStyle Lite. The biggest downside is that the strips are not available to buy at a drug store at a moment's notice or in a crisis. You can only buy them online and would need to have 300-400 in stock (100 in your hypo kit) at any given time. With everything backed-up with the virus, you may not get an order as quick as you would like.
https://diabetesexpress.ca/products/bravo-meter

Food.
There is nothing special about the prescription diabetic food except the price. The prescription dry food is high in carbs. In fact, there is no dry food available in Canada that is low carb. Your vet may want to switch you to Purina DM wet food. It is considered low carb but again, pricy. If your vet insists, buy a can or two, then tell the vet that your cat will not eat it.

Fancy Feast and Friskies pates (and only the pates) are low carb and very easy on the wallet. Do get a couple of cans of Fancy Feat Gravy Lovers (high carb) for your hypo kit. Also, I believe the small cans of PC pates are low carb.

DO NOT SWITCH TO AN ALL WET FOOD DIET UNTIL YOU ARE TESTING REGULARLY. Switching to low carb wet food can make a difference of up to 100 points. It is best to gradually transition to wet food, have your hypo kit handy (just in case) and to test on a regular basis while doing so.

Some links:

It would help tremendously if you could set up a spreadsheet. If you ask questions or need someone with you during a low numbers situation, the spreadsheet is the first place a person will go.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

the above has a link to Canadian food carb count

I’ll eventually transition kitten to 100% wet food. Kitten receives Lantus as well twice daily (5a/5p). The Lantus the vet sold me was $153 but it’s $65 at Costco over the counter. I needed a replacement so I decided on the 5 x 3ml cartridges for $98, should last at least 6 months if not longer.

What meter are you using? I got the Alphatrak2 which I have found expensive but found some more cost effective options. The freelyte meter that is often referred to on here is hard to find here.

Sounds like you are doing a good job a week or so into the diagnosis. You found this forum so you’ll have lots of support :)
 
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Contour Next One is a good meter for Canadians.
And I think the One Touch is a good meter too. Wendy&Neko recommend it.
Here is what she said in another thread about the One Touch human meter.

Wendy&Neko said:
The One Touch is just fine, that's what my vet used. She said it compared favourable to the lab test results when she tested it. It needs a larger blood drop than other meters, so often people will use a different human meter brand. But if it works for you, keep using it.
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"your vet is trying to charge you to look at a spreadsheet"
That's a new one. The Purina DM I can understand but this is a now low for a vet.
Dylan my friend, we try very hard not to scare away new members with what I'm about to say but it might be time to look for another vet. Our vet has become a personal friend over the last twenty years and would never EVER charge us to just look at something.
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
"your vet is trying to charge you to look at a spreadsheet"
That's a new one. The Purina DM I can understand but this is a now low for a vet.
Dylan my friend, we try very hard not to scare away new members with what I'm about to say but it might be time to look for another vet. Our vet has become a personal friend over the last twenty years and would never EVER charge us to just look at something.
Click to expand...

As soon as this covid-19 crap is over with I will be looking for another vet.
 
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