Help Needed - Wenchie & her enzymes Part 3

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Diane Engoron said:
I found a poop on the wee wee pad this morning and assuming it is hers. We did reduce the enzymes a bit - we're using Pancre and the dosage listed says 1/2 to 3/4 tsp per meal, which is what Karen is suggesting. She's walking around howling - I found her in the bathtub drinking water, which is a no-no and there are water bowls all over the place so I syringed her 10 mils of water and just gave her another 10 mils of food. She seems stronger but still won't eat off her plate. Sigh.....

I started a new thread because this one is getting long:
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Are the enzymes one of these? PancreVed, Pancrezyme, PancrePlus, Pancrea Powder Plus

Let her drink. The enzymes are probably burning.
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
Are the enzymes one of these? PancreVed, Pancrezyme, PancrePlus, Pancrea Powder Plus

Let her drink. The enzymes are probably burning.
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Yes - PancrePlus. I have water bowls all over the house. She's howling like a mad woman. Would the pills have less of a negative effect, i.e. burning sensation?
 
PancrePlus Powder
CONTAINS: Each 2.8 grams (1 teaspoon) contains a minimum of:
Lipase
71,400 USP units
Protease
388,000 USP units
Amylase
460,000 USP units

My post from your previous thread:
SheKit & JessKat said:
I've been thinking...and please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong....

From Dr. Pierson's Food Chart: Kitten Tender Turkey Feast - Protein 39%/ Fat 57%/ Carb 3%
Does this mean I multiply the 85 grams (3 oz) per can by Dr. Pierson's Food chart % to come up with: 33 grams of protein/48 grams of fat/2.5 grams of carbs/ per can?

If so, I'm throwing this out there - two brands of RX enzymes I looked up for 'informational purposes' information Viokase-V & Pancrezyme both state:
Each 2.8 grams (1 teaspoonful) contains sufficient pancreatic enzymes to digest 260 g fat, 388 g protein, 460 g starch

If I did the Dr. Pierson Food Chart thing right (or if I didn't we're still only looking at 85 grams of food)
To digest the Kitten Tender Turkey Feast we're looking at roughly 1/8 tsp of enzymes to digest the fat and even less to digest the protein in an 85 gram can.

It makes sense to me, or am I overthinking it???:confused::rolleyes::facepalm:
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The amount of Lipase, Protease and Amylase in one teaspoon of PancrePlus Powder will digest 260 g of fat, 388 g protein, 460 g starch
Your cans of food are only 85 grams of fat, protein and starch combined.
I strongly recommend reducing that dose. My calculation from above is around 1/8 tsp of powder PER CAN.
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
PancrePlus Powder
CONTAINS: Each 2.8 grams (1 teaspoon) contains a minimum of:
Lipase
71,400 USP units
Protease
388,000 USP units
Amylase
460,000 USP units

My post from your previous thread:



The amount of Lipase, Protease and Amylase in one teaspoon of PancrePlus Powder will digest 260 g of fat, 388 g protein, 460 g starch
Your cans of food are only 85 grams of fat, protein and starch combined.
I strongly recommend reducing that dose. My calculation from above is around 1/8 tsp of powder PER CAN.
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Will do. Thank you!!!!
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
PancrePlus Powder
CONTAINS: Each 2.8 grams (1 teaspoon) contains a minimum of:
Lipase
71,400 USP units
Protease
388,000 USP units
Amylase
460,000 USP units

My post from your previous thread:



The amount of Lipase, Protease and Amylase in one teaspoon of PancrePlus Powder will digest 260 g of fat, 388 g protein, 460 g starch
Your cans of food are only 85 grams of fat, protein and starch combined.
I strongly recommend reducing that dose. My calculation from above is around 1/8 tsp of powder PER CAN.
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I pureed another can of ff pate and added that to the original batch with some more water so the powder is definitely more diluted.

I'm being cautious here but I THINK SHE'S TURNED A CORNER!!!! She's much more active - jumping up to the windows, walking around instead of lying around - and it's all because of you guys (and Karen, of course)!
 
Diane Engoron said:
I pureed another can of ff pate and added that to the original batch with some more water so the powder is definitely more diluted.

I'm being cautious here but I THINK SHE'S TURNED A CORNER!!!! She's much more active - jumping up to the windows, walking around instead of lying around - and it's all because of you guys (and Karen, of course)!
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That's GREAT news!!! She WILL be getting food energy from using the enzymes (even if it's too much enzymes).

Think of it this way - adding more food doesn't dilute the enzymes, those puppies keep working until they get pooped out - more food gives the enzymes more to work with. You could have a huge bowl of food or a roast of beef or a chicken and add even a wee bit of enzymes and it'll all breakdown, might take a bit longer but the enzymes don't stop working.
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
That's GREAT news!!! She WILL be getting food energy from using the enzymes (even if it's too much enzymes).

Think of it this way - adding more food doesn't dilute the enzymes, those puppies keep working until they get pooped out - more food gives the enzymes more to work with. You could have a huge bowl of food or a roast of beef or a chicken and add even a wee bit of enzymes and it'll all breakdown, might take a bit longer but the enzymes don't stop working.
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She’s making up for lost time. She’s drinking from the filtered water tap, then went in the bathtub to drink now she’s back in the kitchen.

From this point forward I will definitely lower the dosages. We had a crazy night (actually my husband did - he knew I desperately needed sleep) but if she is starting to come around it was all worth it.
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
That's GREAT news!!! She WILL be getting food energy from using the enzymes (even if it's too much enzymes).

Think of it this way - adding more food doesn't dilute the enzymes, those puppies keep working until they get pooped out - more food gives the enzymes more to work with. You could have a huge bowl of food or a roast of beef or a chicken and add even a wee bit of enzymes and it'll all breakdown, might take a bit longer but the enzymes don't stop working.
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Wait 'til you forget about that bowl of mixed food in the back of your fridge - you'll know what I mean!!!!:oops:

(PS, hold your nose):eek:
 
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Does anyone know if I can dissolve the enzyme in water and syringe it into Wenchie? She won't eat it mixed in her food so I'm still pureeing her food and mixing it in to that. I actually called the company and they wouldn't answer my question - they would have to forward their answer to my vet who will then tell me the answer (kind of silly if you ask me!).

She's doing so much better today! I just gave her some Psyllium powder before her enzyme meal and then she got her B-12 shot. What a difference a weekend makes! This cat has used up her 9 lives I swear!
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
You could, but she'll hate you for it. That's probably the worst way to administer, nothing to mask the taste.

Are you still planning on syringe feeding? Or letting her eat unenzymed food and then administer?
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That’s what I was afraid of. Yes, still syringe feeding her with enzymed food. I’m going to try again putting it in some food, letting it sit and hope she’ll eat it.
 
Maybe mix it with a little food, just enough to syringe the dose. Syringing the enzymes on their own might not work out, especially if they taste bitter. As I learned once when I tried to give Billy liquid children's benadryl. Cats do this thing when they taste something bitter where they smack their tongue really fast. It makes foam absolutely pour out of their mouths. You would have thought Billy had suddenly gone rabid. My Scooter uses benedryl, and while there is a little drooling, it isn't nearly as dramatic. Of course, Scooter considers it pure poison and hides under the bed.
 
Diane Engoron said:
That’s what I was afraid of. Yes, still syringe feeding her with enzymed food. I’m going to try again putting it in some food, letting it sit and hope she’ll eat it.
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I didn't happen overnight for me either - A LOT of trial and error. All I can say is that you've gotta come up with a way to mask those enzymes that works for you. It'd be so easy if she takes to just mixing it straight in the food without having to use any sort of concoction - you still need to incubate before served, but it would make life easier.

If you're interested in trying what worked for me (Thread 2, Post 15), I'd be happy to do the math and let you know what I come up with.
 
Deb & Wink said:
My understanding with the pancreatic enzymes is that they do not work as well if given in pill form.
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Her numbers from the TLI test weren’t far off normal. Wenchie’s is 10.5 and the normal range is 12 to 82. Her Cobalamin was very low so I started her on B-12 shots today. Her folate was too high so she’s started on psyllium before every meal.

So, with that, she’ll be retested in 6 weeks and we’ll see what her new numbers are. The pill form MAY just work enough for her. MAY is my own hope, not Karen’s.

She’s feeling SO much better. She was too weak to step into the litter box and she had no problem this afternoon. She’s fighting me syringe feeding her, slapping my hand away! Makes me so happy!
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
I didn't happen overnight for me either - A LOT of trial and error. All I can say is that you've gotta come up with a way to mask those enzymes that works for you. It'd be so easy if she takes to just mixing it straight in the food without having to use any sort of concoction - you still need to incubate before served, but it would make life easier.

If you're interested in trying what worked for me (Thread 2, Post 15), I'd be happy to do the math and let you know what I come up with.
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I will go back to that post and see what you did. Any help would be appreciated! Now that she’s feeling a bit better she’s got her diva attitude back!
 
Have you stumbled across this forum in your web travels? https://epiincats.webs.com/ Similar to this forum but for EPI cats

Points I jotted down to have in one place:

- Enzymes burn. At the very least should be incubated for 20 minutes in whatever method of delivery you choose to use.

- Dose of enzymes is based on the amount of food being served - not TLI score or kittys weight.

- Enzymes need enough food on board while in the digestive tract to work with.

- Optimum dose will depend on how fast or how slow the kitty’s digestive tract works.

- Slower digestive process will need less enzymes - the food and enzymes have longer to work.

- Faster digestive process may need a wee bit more enzymes - things are moving faster.

More enzymes doesn’t mean it breaks down the food better, just faster. You don’t want kitty to run out of food while the enzymes are working in the digestive tract.

- NEVER heat enzymes, it destroys them
 
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SheKit & JessKat said:
Have you stumbled across this forum in your web travels? https://epiincats.webs.com/ Similar to this forum but for EPI cats

Points I jotted down to have in one place:

- Enzymes burn. At the very least should be incubated for 20 minutes in whatever method of delivery you choose to use.

- Dose of enzymes is based on the amount of food being served - not TLI score or kittys weight.

- Enzymes need enough food on board while in the digestive tract to work with.

- Optimum dose will depend on how fast or how slow the kitty’s digestive tract works.

- Slower digestive process will need less enzymes - the food and enzymes have longer to work.

- Faster digestive process may need a wee bit more enzymes - things are moving faster.

More enzymes doesn’t mean it breaks down the food better, just faster. You don’t want kitty to run out of food while the enzymes are working in the digestive tract.
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Thank you for this. I actually called and spoke with the manufacturer asking them some questions as well. I will add your points to my "cheat sheets" so to speak. She's a bit tired today (or maybe just being a cat and sleeping like she normally did?) but not begging for food, normal pooping and peeing. I worry too much.

I puree her food and let it sit for at least 20 minutes but usually longer. I keep it out during the day (she hates cold food and won't eat anything microwaved) and make 1 or 2 batches per day, which are refrigerated until ready to use. I've cut way down on the enzymes and now am just giving her 1/8 tsp per 1 can of fancy feast.

There's so much to this and I really want to be so careful so to not create any new problems.

Thank you so much once again!
 
SheKit & JessKat said:
SLGS works for enzymes too - don't fret, you'll get there!

Truly, YOU are doing an AWESOME job!!! :bighug:

(PS, I just edited my points list to included NEVER heat enzymes - it destroys them after you mentioned the microwave :))
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Thank you so much - and I never reheat her food - she hates it so thank God I haven't done that with the enzymes!!!!

There is so, so much to this and I don't want to make any mistakes with her health. She's so painfully thin and has been through so much!
 
So, after reading every single post you guys have so unselfishly written to me, I've lowered Wenchie's enzymes to 1/8 tsp per can of pureed food. She is beginning to turn the corner! I'm still syringe feeding her because she won't touch the stuff, even after it's been incubated in her food for more than 30 minutes. She is really giving us a tough time with the psyllium (haven't figured out what we can do - putting it in water and syringing it just does not work). But her numbers have all been in the normal range (173 PMPS!) - we're cautiously optimistic!!! She seems a tiny bit more energetic, her coat is looking a tad bit better, and, probably the most important thing - SHE'S NOT CONSTANTLY BEGGING FOR FOOD!!!!

I swear - if she makes it, it is all because of YOU guys!!! She sure has used up many of her 9 lives by now - if not all!
 
I see the psyllium husk fiber was recommended for the high folate levels. Is that correct?

The psyllium can be mixed with water, but then has to be given IMMEDIATELY as it turns gummy in only a few minutes and can be very difficult to push out of the syringe and into her mouth.

Do you have a larger bore feeding syringe? Or maybe you could cut and smooth down the tip on a spare feeding syringe, to give you a larger opening to "push" the psyllium mixture through.

If the psyllium husk fiber is not working for her, since you can't syringe that into her, would some sort of prebiotic or probiotic have the same effects you are trying to achieve with the psyllium? To improve the intestinal microflora? Please ask your vet Karen about this. I don't really know what would be appropriate.

Diane Engoron said:
She seems a tiny bit more energetic, her coat is looking a tad bit better, and, probably the most important thing - SHE'S NOT CONSTANTLY BEGGING FOR FOOD!!!!
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Go Wenchie!!!
 
Deb & Wink said:
I see the psyllium husk fiber was recommended for the high folate levels. Is that correct?

The psyllium can be mixed with water, but then has to be given IMMEDIATELY as it turns gummy in only a few minutes and can be very difficult to push out of the syringe and into her mouth.

Do you have a larger bore feeding syringe? Or maybe you could cut and smooth down the tip on a spare feeding syringe, to give you a larger opening to "push" the psyllium mixture through.

If the psyllium husk fiber is not working for her, since you can't syringe that into her, would some sort of prebiotic or probiotic have the same effects you are trying to achieve with the psyllium? To improve the intestinal microflora? Please ask your vet Karen about this. I don't really know what would be appropriate.


Go Wenchie!!!
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Yes it’s for her the folate levels. I just put some in some food in her bowl. She ate it but it’s not ideal because there are no enzymes in that tiny bit of food. I will cut open the tip of one of the syringes. I try to get it down her quickly because of the gummy factor but she fought me. However, today she seems to just be going along with it a little more. She ate a full can with her enzymes! That hasn’t been the case for the past couple of days. I will ask Karen if there’s something else can use that would achieve the same result.

Her coat is starting to look better, less dandruff, she has a bit more energy, and not begging for food every second of the day.

Her poop looks good! I actually broke one open to check it and it was just poop!!

This has been quite the journey!
 
Diane Engoron said:
So, after reading every single post you guys have so unselfishly written to me, I've lowered Wenchie's enzymes to 1/8 tsp per can of pureed food. She is beginning to turn the corner! I'm still syringe feeding her because she won't touch the stuff, even after it's been incubated in her food for more than 30 minutes. She is really giving us a tough time with the psyllium (haven't figured out what we can do - putting it in water and syringing it just does not work). But her numbers have all been in the normal range (173 PMPS!) - we're cautiously optimistic!!! She seems a tiny bit more energetic, her coat is looking a tad bit better, and, probably the most important thing - SHE'S NOT CONSTANTLY BEGGING FOR FOOD!!!!

I swear - if she makes it, it is all because of YOU guys!!! She sure has used up many of her 9 lives by now - if not all!
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I just read your post and got chills!!! (Good chills) You've been in my thoughts all day & I kept checking for recent posts and thinking no news is good news and I was right!!!!! YAY!!!
 
Diane, you wouldn't know it but I have been invested in this thread from the first day. I cannot offer you anything except to say that I've been there on my hands and knees pleading for a cat to eat and wondering how on Earth they know "something" is in their food.
Keep the faith and know that more people than you know care. :bighug:
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
Diane, you wouldn't know it but I have been invested in this thread from the first day. I cannot offer you anything except to say that I've been there on my hands and knees pleading for a cat to eat and wondering how on Earth they know "something" is in their food.
Keep the faith and know that more people than you know care. :bighug:
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Darn, who's in the room cutting those onions. :arghh:
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
Diane, you wouldn't know it but I have been invested in this thread from the first day. I cannot offer you anything except to say that I've been there on my hands and knees pleading for a cat to eat and wondering how on Earth they know "something" is in their food.
Keep the faith and know that more people than you know care. :bighug:
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Thank you from the bottom of my heart, my husband’s heart, and Wenchie’s heart. I never thought we’d get this far. ❤️❤️
 
Told ya when you joined the Facebook group that this was the best place you never wanted to be!

When it comes to cat problems, there's not much that somebody here hasn't seen and dealt with before!

So glad Wenchie seems to be doing better, even with all the hassle you're going through...but she's worth it!!
 
Chris & China (GA) said:
Told ya when you joined the Facebook group that this was the best place you never wanted to be!

When it comes to cat problems, there's not much that somebody here hasn't seen and dealt with before!

So glad Wenchie seems to be doing better, even with all the hassle you're going through...but she's worth it!!
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Oh she is so worth it. We’re still figuring out what works best but to see her with some energy, her coat looking better and better, and her trying to smack the feeding syringes out of my hand just makes us so happy!!!

I am forever indebted to all you guys who put up with my meltdowns and constant questions. I honestly thought we would have lost her by now. She’s a tough old bird!!!!

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
 
Deb & Wink said:
Eating on her own! A new baby step for Wenchie in eating her foods.

p.s. We'd love to see a new picture of Wenchie. And Christopher and any of the other kitties. If you ever have the time - and the energy.:p
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Will do! After taking care of Wenchie and the others, scooping litter boxes, etc., I ran to the grocery store and did our shopping. The whole thing with the coronavirus just makes me want to avoid as many people as possible plus early morning grocery stores are empty!!!
 
Yes, I'll be making a run to the grocery store myself this morning. Then a run to the "dump" with my trash and recycles. But have to feed and scoop boxes myself this morning.;)
 
Diane Engoron said:
my meltdowns
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Rookie! Wait until you've been here a few years and see thread titles that run off the side of the screen. Besides that don't you think you have the right to a few meltdowns?
The syringe feeding can be the brutal part. Years ago my GA Nigel had a brother named Andrew who fought me tooth and nail over force feeding and it was FORCE. My wife couldn't bear to watch but it all worked out in the end. Andrew's second name was Bright Eyes, the biggest of our four yellow cats, all brothers born in this house. We never did know what made him sick but he lived a good and long life after that. Wanna see?
andrew&nigel001 (2).JPG
 

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Diane Engoron said:
Success! I incubated the enzymes in FF Kitten Turkey Feast overnight and she's eating it! She's almost finished the whole can!!!!!
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This is great news!!!

Keep in mind the enzymes are breaking down the food while refrigerated and making the food less palatable in case she starts going off doing it this way. If this happens you could try incubating 1/8 tsp of enzymes in 1/2 a can of food and refrigerate overnight and then add the other 1/2 of can of fresh unenzymed food in the morning (no need to incubate any longer).

& Keep an eye on those poops - (one of) the best indicators of how well the enzymes are working! :)
 
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I was reading back over this thread and realized I could've done a bit better. I've never tried to help anyone before and the only thing I was thinking at the time was "we gotta get the right dose."

For those of you who may be reading after the fact @JL and Chip made a really important comment which I missed:

JL and Chip said:
Just out of curiosity, will she eat food without the enzymes?
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After Diane posted:

Diane Engoron said:
She's howling like a mad woman.
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I wish I had have said - "get some unenzymed food in to her" at the time.

I feel so bad that Wenchie was in terrible pain and I could've helped & just wanna make sure that going forward for anyone else referring back to this thread they have as much information as possible.

//Shelley
 
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