Help. Need Analysis of Kitties Spreadsheet.

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Sev

Sev

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I have been posting in the main forum. It was suggested that I start posting here for Prozinc specific help.
Below is the original blood work for Kitty back on Nov 10, 2011.

Here is the background.

As best we can tell Kitty is 13-14 years old. We figured he was between 1 and 2 when he adopted us.

Kitties diet has been switched to low carb consisting of mainly of Wellness and Merrick with Freshpet Grilled and Blue Buffalo Wilderness. All foods selected are 6 carbs or lower. Mostly between 2-4 carbs. Freshpet has the highest however I am only using that for snacking purposes and not full meals.
I have been testing periodically for Keytones. Always negative.
Over the past 7 months Kitty's weight has dropped from 17lbs to 11lbs. His optimum weight is between 10-12lbs.
Feeding has been morning and evening of 2.1 oz of canned food. Which I just upped to 2.5 oz as it was suggested his caloric intake was to low.
Snacks in between feedings have consisted of fresh cooked turkey or FreshPet.
No dry food is being given.
Kitty is getting exercise during interactions with a 5 month old Main Coon kitten I rescued.

The Vet started kitty on 1 unit of prozinc.
Due to changing his diet I extended that to 2 weeks.
I posted the the vets request to move Kitty to 2 units. Members suggest that a 100% move was questionable especially when shooting blind. I have been testing ever since. As you can see from the spreadsheet the numbers are pretty wild. I recently decreased to .75 units and the swings are not as extreme. However he still seems to be bouncing.
I also started shooting on the side a couple days ago. Hopefully I am in the correct area. As I understand it halfway down just before the ribcage.
I have also noticed at pattern on the chart that the overall numbers after the AMPS are consistently worse than those after the PMPS hour for hour that I am testing.

Looking forward to any and all advice and analysis.

Sev.

KittysBloodWorkpg2-1-1.jpg

KittysBloodWork-1-1.jpg
 
Hi Sev,

Welcome to PZI land! Both Carl and I post here as well as on Health. This is a smaller forum and is busiest in the late afternoon and night. So check back for replies and if you ever have an emergency, post on Health. The nice thing is that the posters here all use your insulin and have seen a number of different patterns on spreadsheets.

I think it may be crap shoot time again. :mrgreen: I wonder if you should go down to .5 and see what his numbers look like. I am wondering if the .75 is still too much insulin. If you choose to do that, be sure to test for ketones and monitor carefully, which I know you will.

I don't see increasing. His numbers were awful at higher doses.

The other choice is to wait it out and see if he needs a few more cycles to settle into the dose. And to see if the dental makes a difference.

Look around this forum and check out other people's spreadsheets. It will help you see the flexibility of ProZinc and how people are using that. But it will also show you that, in some cats, the process isn't smooth and clear.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Hi Sev,

Welcome to PZI land! Both Carl and I post here as well as on Health. This is a smaller forum and is busiest in the late afternoon and night. So check back for replies and if you ever have an emergency, post on Health. The nice thing is that the posters here all use your insulin and have seen a number of different patterns on spreadsheets.

I think it may be crap shoot time again. :mrgreen: I wonder if you should go down to .5 and see what his numbers look like. I am wondering if the .75 is still too much insulin. If you choose to do that, be sure to test for ketones and monitor carefully, which I know you will.

I don't see increasing. His numbers were awful at higher doses.

The other choice is to wait it out and see if he needs a few more cycles to settle into the dose. And to see if the dental makes a difference.

Look around this forum and check out other people's spreadsheets. It will help you see the flexibility of ProZinc and how people are using that. But it will also show you that, in some cats, the process isn't smooth and clear.
Click to expand...

I may go back to shooting in the scruff. I seem to be struggling with the side. This morning felt correct. I am giving and extra nudge after I feel the needle penetrate.
For clarity what exactly is the sweet spot for shooting in the side?
 
Someone else will answer that. We have lots of people using them and they know the easiest places.
(take that back. We have lots of people using U100 and the conversion chart.....)

I never had to use anything other than the standard U40 so no experience.
 
Hi Sev and welcome to PZI,

Is Kitty's name Kitty? We have another Kitty here in PZI too.

Yikes that is one angry looking ss.

I'm going to suggest that you try a dose reduction to .5 unit and see if that will help to stop the huge swings up and down. Once the bouncing stops you can start going back up in small increments to ease Kitty into better numbers.

We have been doing some experimenting with injection sites here in PZI and the concensus is that there seems to be better absorbsion when shooting the flank, although more prone to fur shots. Try different sites and find the one that feels right and works best for you.

Glad you joined us.

Robin
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Someone else will answer that. We have lots of people using them and they know the easiest places.

I never had to use anything other than the standard U40 so no experience.
Click to expand...

No prob.
Just looking for accuracy. They would be better than doing conversions from a U100.
 
I was never able to find U40 syringes with half unit markings.

The U100 syringes with half unit markings are much easier to find. I use the Walmart Relion syringes, 3/10ml Doses up to 30 units,29 guage, long needle (you can get a higher guage in the short needle), UPC/Barcode 6 81131 31167 0. Before leaving the store with them open the box and make sure they have the half unit marks.

You will need to use the conversion chart with them.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Now not sure what you mean. Most people here use U100 and the conversion chart...
Click to expand...

I was thinking the U-40s came that way.
 
Rob & Harley said:
Hi Sev and welcome to PZI,

Is Kitty's name Kitty? We have another Kitty here in PZI too.

Yikes that is one angry looking ss.

I'm going to suggest that you try a dose reduction to .5 unit and see if that will help to stop the huge swings up and down. Once the bouncing stops you can start going back up in small increments to ease Kitty into better numbers.

We have been doing some experimenting with injection sites here in PZI and the concensus is that there seems to be better absorbsion when shooting the flank, although more prone to fur shots. Try different sites and find the one that feels right and works best for you.

Glad you joined us.

Robin
Click to expand...

HAHA!!
Yes. Very angry.
We need to get some smiley faces on it.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I don't think anyone here has found them but you might do an online search and see what you find.
Click to expand...

I'll sniff around.

Well Kitty is back into the 200's.

But way. The vet is charging 97.28 for the insulin. Would that be considered a good price?
 
+9 is 476.

Any reason the daytime numbers are appearing worse than the evening numbers?
 
Good thing for you to explore. Sometimes it is the difference in activity level. If they play during the day and sleep all night, their bg levels can be higher at night. It can also be food. If they eat more (or less) or at different intervals during the day and night, that can make a difference. Donna (Donnahc) got her numbers down by adding a snack in the middle of the night. Contrasting, Angela had varied Henry's food in almost every way possible and not gotten results. She gets beautiful pmps numbers with high amps.

It is the darn ECID thing.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Good thing for you to explore. Sometimes it is the difference in activity level. If they play during the day and sleep all night, their bg levels can be higher at night. It can also be food. If they eat more (or less) or at different intervals during the day and night, that can make a difference. Donna (Donnahc) got her numbers down by adding a snack in the middle of the night. Contrasting, Angela had varied Henry's food in almost every way possible and not gotten results. She gets beautiful pmps numbers with high amps.

It is the darn ECID thing.
Click to expand...


Well I have been giving a turky snack around noon when I am home. Not a large portion. I dont want to under feed the kitten either. Kitty usually takes a few nibbles and walks away. The Coon cat generally wipes out what is left.
I will generally leave another snack between 10-11 PM for them to get through the night. I have been trying to keep it straight meat.
The cats do most of there WWF impersonating during the night. :-D
 
That 508 almost looks like a fluke. I can't think of what would cause a 150 point rise and drop in 2 hours, food maybe, sudden stress, hard to say.

I'm glad you went with .5u tonight.
 
Rob & Harley said:
That 508 almost looks like a fluke. I can't think of what would cause a 150 point rise and drop in 2 hours, food maybe, sudden stress, hard to say.

I'm glad you went with .5u tonight.
Click to expand...

I tried the side of the chest tonight.
 
Hi Sev and Kitty cat_pet_icon welcome to pzi

the cost of 97.23 is a steal I think ! I pay 140.00 for callies ;-) callie is a hard to figure kitty to, hang in there and take it one day at a time dancing_cat the people on this board are amazing and I would be lost with out them, they have taught my vet a thing or 2 ;-) I use the u100 syringes with the conversion chart I think the shorter needles are easier on callie :YMHUG: to you and welcome again


calliecat and marty !
 
calliecat an marty said:
Hi Sev and Kitty cat_pet_icon welcome to pzi

the cost of 97.23 is a steal I think ! I pay 140.00 for callies ;-) callie is a hard to figure kitty to, hang in there and take it one day at a time dancing_cat the people on this board are amazing and I would be lost with out them, they have taught my vet a thing or 2 ;-) I use the u100 syringes with the conversion chart I think the shorter needles are easier on callie :YMHUG: to you and welcome again


calliecat and marty !
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Well the start of today is not good. He bounced up to 570 @ +1.
Tested a second time. Came in at 460. I am wondering if this tester is even accurate.
 
Well it looks like we are going in the right direction earlier today. That's a plus.
 
Remember that his first day on .75 was high. He does seem to take a while to settle into a dose.

The other thing I am thinking is that he may be really carb sensitive. (If the rise after the shot is food) Sometimes if you can get the carbs down into the 3-5% range (without doing fish too often) it helps lower the bg levels.


I did check out your Freshpet. Their website gives their carb value as fed as reasonably low but I have never heard of it....
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Remember that his first day on .75 was high. He does seem to take a while to settle into a dose.

The other thing I am thinking is that he may be really carb sensitive. (If the rise after the shot is food) Sometimes if you can get the carbs down into the 3-5% range (without doing fish too often) it helps lower the bg levels.


I did check out your Freshpet. Their website gives their carb value as fed as reasonably low but I have never heard of it....
Click to expand...

This morning I fed him Wellness Beef & Chicken. %Kcal from carbs 5, %Carbs as fed 1.4

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8Uu8g ... ist&num=50
 
Hi Sev,
Sorry I haven't been chipping in lately. I have been looking at kitty's SS, but most days it's like "I got nothing". Beats hell out of me.

You weren't hear earlier this year, but Kitty reminds me of Wally and Costello. Same pattern. Costello however was more messed up when he got here, really high doses and occasional ketones along with digestive issues and allergies. Wally tried dropping, didn't help much, but then he got a little radicall on switching doses too often and not testing enough. At least we have data to work with in you and Kitty's case.

I also haven't been around due to work. I've been off work for two weeks, and could be around anytime of day or night. Yesterday I worked 6-2 so I was zombie all day, and the next two weeks I'm on afternoons (noon to 8) so it'll be later at night when I'm on.

This is trivial, but when you have time, can you change the SS so that the blues are blue background with white or light blue type numbers? I just noticed how hard it is to make sense of with all those "whites" in the mix. No biggie, just easier for these old eyes.

Don't change anything now, and this is just one opinion, but I think we might be moving in the wrong direction on dose. It looks like "up" is where you need to go. Those PS numbers have got to come down some or you might start seeing some ketones, is my worry. Other than that one green, the nadirs have had some room to drop. But you can only think about doing that if you have time to be threre to watch for any deep drops. I gotta get ready for work, but I'll check back later tonight.
Carl
 
No problem Carl.
I also may be screwing up some of the shots. I was having an easier time shooting in the scruff.

Not sure what to do. Decreasing to .5 seems to have gotten the wild swings down. But I nowhere near getting to near to 100.

Sure I can change the color.
Where do I change the value?
 
Sev
not sure. I'll have to look later on a PC....the values i listed are supposed to be the default.
carl
 
Sev said:
...Sure I can change the color. ..Where do I change the value?
Click to expand...

There's a little toolbar at the top (if you have it turned on), with a variety of formatting icons.
The dark gray A with a black underline is to select text color
The white A in a gray box with white underline is to select the background color
 
BJM said:
Sev said:
...Sure I can change the color. ..Where do I change the value?
Click to expand...

There's a little toolbar at the top (if you have it turned on), with a variety of formatting icons.
The dark gray A with a black underline is to select text color
The white A in a gray box with white underline is to select the background color
Click to expand...

I did those earlier. The only color that changed was in the title bar, the columns stayed the same.

OH wait. I did not see the conditional formatting.

Had to change them individually. If I add numbers the setting is not taking.
 
The cells you want to alter must be highlighted as a group, OR the format painted from a cell that has the same value range. Personally, I paint the format, as otherwise there is a script running to do all the rules and it bogs down my home PC.
 
BJM said:
The cells you want to alter must be highlighted as a group, OR the format painted from a cell that has the same value range. Personally, I paint the format, as otherwise there is a script running to do all the rules and it bogs down my home PC.
Click to expand...

Everything else highlights automatically. Not sure how the get the group to do that.
 
Ok guys.
I am looking at these .5 unit numbers and I am not seeing anything inspiring.
 
Not so much. Course the advantage of your other days was the amount of testing so we could see if there was a definite low. (got spoiled with all your numbers)

Do you have a meter now you think you can trust?

Your best numbers were on .75. You could try that again and hold the dose longer. You could go back to 2 units like your vet wants. That certainly would not be my first choice but others may disagree.

I have to say we just don't see spreadsheets like yours, Sev, with such extreme highs.

Check back in and see what others think.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Not so much. Course the advantage of your other days was the amount of testing so we could see if there was a definite low. (got spoiled with all your numbers)

Do you have a meter now you think you can trust?

Your best numbers were on .75. You could try that again and hold the dose longer. You could go back to 2 units like your vet wants. That certainly would not be my first choice but others may disagree.

I have to say we just don't see spreadsheets like yours, Sev, with such extreme highs.

Check back in and see what others think.
Click to expand...

I am going to have to cut back on the testing if I use the OneTouch.
However I have a new ReliOn and 50 strips for that left.

Yah it always seems I get the special cases.
Not sure were to go here.
I was getting a lot more in the 100's with 1.5.
It almost looked like he was settling down on 11/28. I think I botched 11/29.
 
Hi and Welcome to PZI land,
I have been absent for a few days and tonight is my first night looking at your SS
and I have to tell you that it gave me a headache!!
ANd I am in agreement with Sue that .75 saw the best numbers
Sometimes it takes a week or even longer for a cat to settle into a dose
(my Shakespeare takes at least 4 days)
If I were you, I think I might raise to .75 and stay there for awhile...
and am sure that your SS is SUe's favorite!! :mrgreen:
 
dmartini4 said:
Hi and Welcome to PZI land,
I have been absent for a few days and tonight is my first night looking at your SS
and I have to tell you that it gave me a headache!!
ANd I am in agreement with Sue that .75 saw the best numbers
Sometimes it takes a week or even longer for a cat to settle into a dose
(my Shakespeare takes at least 4 days)
If I were you, I think I might raise to .75 and stay there for awhile...
and am sure that your SS is SUe's favorite!! :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Its a colorful chart that's for sure.

I decided to bring it back up.
I didnt go with the 2 units the vet wants. However I went with 1.75
 
Hi Sev,
Sorry I haven't gotten to this until now. I asked for you to post Kitty's bloodwork which you did at the top of this thread.

Here's a link, if you hadn't already found it yourself, that gives info on what all those numbers might mean. Even if you have seen it before, I'm hoping it is useful to anyone else watching the thread.
I look at the "high" or "low" results from the bloodwork and check what they indicate.
For Kitty, that would be BUN, Albumin, Glucose of course, Cholesterol, and ALT, and a high borderline GGT.

See if that ties together somehow. Maybe someone else can make sense of why they are all high, and what that indicates?
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/lab.aspx

I'm with you on the increase to 1.75 too by the way. I was going to say "maybe your vet was right" on the 2.0 before I saw what you just posted.

Carl
 
It ssays albumin and ALT can be high due to dehydration...Was Kitty really dehyrdated at dx?
 
carlinsc said:
It ssays albumin and ALT can be high due to dehydration...Was Kitty really dehyrdated at dx?
Click to expand...

I wouldnt think so. He drinks as needed.
Not bashful about that at all.

I am keeping him an eye on him due to the increase.

By the way I just picked up a Staywell 360 stainless water bowl. The cats love it.
 
Sev
I meant, was Kitty dehydrated on the day he was diagnosed? That would possibly explain the high numbers on the blood work. They had to have been elevated for some reason, and that would be the best choice. If you look at that link, the elevated readings could be indication of liver or kidney problems, which might need more tests.
Carl
 
carlinsc said:
Sev
I meant, was Kitty dehydrated on the day he was diagnosed? That would possibly explain the high numbers on the blood work. They had to have been elevated for some reason, and that would be the best choice. If you look at that link, the elevated readings could be indication of liver or kidney problems, which might need more tests.
Carl
Click to expand...

I dont think so.
The Vet indicated that there didnt appear to be any problems with the kidneys or liver based on what he saw.

I know Kitty's water intake and runs to the litter box have decreased since starting the insulin. He is still regular though.
Cat box odor has decreased substantially as well.
 
carlinsc said:
Sev
I meant, was Kitty dehydrated on the day he was diagnosed? That would possibly explain the high numbers on the blood work. They had to have been elevated for some reason, and that would be the best choice. If you look at that link, the elevated readings could be indication of liver or kidney problems, which might need more tests.
Carl
Click to expand...

Looking at the BUN number is not going to make me sleep better tonight.
However the Ceatinine is low. That is good.
Phosphorous is not high either.
Albumin is high indicating dehydration.
 
Pets that are severely dehydrated will have an increased BUN
Click to expand...

that's why I asked if he was dry that day. If so, that explains it? Did the vet say anything other than "Kitty has diabetes"?

Carl
 
carlinsc said:
Pets that are severely dehydrated will have an increased BUN
Click to expand...

that's why I asked if he was dry that day. If so, that explains it? Did the vet say anything other than "Kitty has diabetes"?

Carl
Click to expand...

Nope.
I took his word for it.
However Kitty was on the dry food then. Cant remember if he consumed a bowl of it that morning or not.
 
Looks like the morning run is going to be more of the same.
Going to have to hang out till +3 to see what is going on.
 
Looks like todays nadir is at +7. 154.
I did give him a snack before +8 though. It may have held steady if I didnt do that.
 
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