Corn Litter = Carbohydrates? (And other Q's.)

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billr

billr

Member Since 2013
A newbie here. We use Worlds' Best Cat litter, which is corn based. From what I've read on this board, corn is generally a bad thing for food because it's high in carbohydrates. The corn litter is kind of dusty, so I know he gets some on his fur and feet, which he eventually licks off. Do you think there's any significant amount of carbs in the litter? Should we switch to something else?
 
Re: Corn Litter = Carbohydrates?

Bill,
I can recall a couple of people who found that their cats were eating the World's Best which explained the higher numbers they were getting since switching.
If you think it might be a cause of higher BGs, you can try switching as an experiment.

Maybe a pine/ceder style?
 
Re: Corn Litter = Carbohydrates?

If there is a Tractor Supply Store, or similar, near you, you might try inexpensive compressed wood pellet bedding. It disintegrates when wet so you do need to scoop regularly.
 
Re: Corn Litter = Carbohydrates?

Thanks for the replies. It answered my question that if he ate enough it could affect his BG readings. We'll checkout some other types of litter. (I don't he actually sits and eats it or anything, so he's probably not ingesting much. Still, corn is fairly high is sugar, so probably best to avoid the potential problems.)
 
Re: Corn Litter = Carbohydrates?

Welcome Bill and Gizmo to the FDMB, the best little message board in the universe to help you with your newly diagnosed sugarcat.

Let us know what other questions you may have. Keeping them all here in your first post helps with continuity for those of us helping you.
 
Re: Corn Litter = Carbohydrates?

Thanks, Deb! Gizmo was started by the Vet on 2U of Lantis, 2x daily, not quite 2 weeks ago. At the same time we switched him from a mostly dry kibble diet (Professional brand) with some FF as a treat, to dry and wet DM per the Vet's recommendation. A few days later, I found the board here and starting reading. We dumped the DM wet and dry and started transitioning him to all low carb wet food. After trying a bunch of different brands and flavors, the only one he really consistently likes is FF Classic Turkey & Giblets. We also made a transition from the Professional to Nutrisca Dry food. The Nutrisca was recommended by our locally owned pet food store for its very low glycemic index (8 for Salmon, 9 for Chicken). Grain free and made with free range chickens. No carbohydrate listing though, and not on any of the pet food charts. (Transitioning to all wet food has been very hard, so that's the reason for continuing to feed some dry.) He did like the Nutrisca, but subsequently I called the company to ask the carb percentage and they told me it was 23-25%. Still too high, so we have ordered some Young and Alive 0 carb, which should be here this week.

In the meantime, he has been on an all wet food diet, so we may not need that YA except maybe to put out when we'll be gone during the day. He's also a nibbler and doesn't like the two or three time a day feeding schedule.

Doing a BG on him was initially very difficult. He was a feral kitten when adopted and didn't like his ears touched, so sometimes we would only get an PM BG reading. He has been getting better about, which is good.

Shortly after diagnosis, the Vet went on vacation and my wife didn't feel comfortable giving him 2U so we dropped it back to 1U 2x daily. (After reading more on the start low and slow procedure, I found 2U was kind of high for a starting point. In the Vet's defense, when we brought him in he was in ketoacidosis, so she probably wanted to bring him down quickly.) Anyway, after about a week, with his AMPS and PMBS BG readings in the high 200's we dropped him to 3/4U 2x. Yesterday, he was at 275 +6.5 from AM shot and 225 at PMPS. We gave him about 1/4U last night. This morning he was at 156 AMPS, so based on the advice of don't shoot if below 200, we skipped the AM shot. Are we doing the right thing? Is it too much to hope for that his pancreas could be turning around so soon, with the low card diet?

He was overweight before being diagnosed (and lost weight from not eating much during the ketoacidosis). Another contributing factor is that our original Vet (not the one we're working with now) gave him a steroid shot a month or so ago to treat what he said was an allergy causing him to cough a lot. So, all those factors (dry kibble, overweight, steroid shot) obviously contributed to his diabetes. In addition, I think his BG was probably on the high side even before the steroid shot.

Sorry for running on, but I know sometimes having all the background information can help.

If he is still at or below 200 tonight, do we skip the PM shot, too? What if he is in the low 200's (e.g., 210-220)? I would guess if he's back up in the mid 200's or higher, we would shoot 1/2U or so.
 
After trying a bunch of different brands and flavors, the only one he really consistently likes is FF Classic Turkey & Giblets.
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That's the only food my foster cat Wink would eat at first when I switched him from dry to wet food!!!!! :shock: :o :shock:

With the history of ketoacidosis, you need to be doing ketone testing daily. Do you have ketone urine testing strips from the drugstore or pharmacy counter? Here are some urine catching ideas that might work... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1quta5WLEjdO0Y_t2dAYSwN84h-LNZWxOdtVsJDKZ16A/pub

Dosing changes for Lantus insulin are made on the nadir or lowest point in the 12 hour cycle. The tests at pre-shot are to make sure your cat Gizmo has a high enough BG to shoot the insulin. The pre-shot tests are not used for dosing adjustments.

Anyway, after about a week, with his AMPS and PMBS BG readings in the high 200's we dropped him to 3/4U 2x. Yesterday, he was at 275 +6.5 from AM shot and 225 at PMPS. We gave him about 1/4U last night. This morning he was at 156 AMPS, so based on the advice of don't shoot if below 200, we skipped the shot
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With the ketone risk and past issues with ketones with Gizmo, I think we need to teach you to shoot low. I would not reduce the dose again at this point. I think your cat will need some insulin for tonight. In fact, I think you need to go back to the 0.75U or even the 1U dose. That is based on the 1 nadir number you gave us.

Do you have more mid-cycle test BG numbers you can share with us?

Are we doing the right thing? Is it too much to hope for that his pancreas could be turning around so soon, with the low card diet?
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It's a little early after only 2 weeks for the pancreas to have healed. We want to see normal numbers in the 50-130 range before we would stop the insulin. The fact that you have changed to a low carb diet is a big factor in controlling the diabetes. Also, since this case of diabetes may, only may be steroid induced, once the steroid is out of Gizmo's system, he may go OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice) into a diet controlled remission.

Do you have plenty of test strips on hand, some HC (high carb) food, karo or honey or another simple sugar, willing to stay up to monitor if needed? What is your usual shot time?

We can help guide you through shooting those low numbers if you would like.

Thank you for all that info. It helped me to see more of the situation and make some better suggestions.
 
Thanks, for the advice, Deb. Unfortunately, we have no more mid-cycle numbers. Until just the last few tests, he was difficult to test. We will try and get some more, now that he is calmer about having his ears handled and poked.

We had no idea we should be continually checking for ketones, even when the BG is not above 300. We do have some of the combo ketone + glucose test strips and have checked a couple of times and ketones have been negative.

We do have some emergency supplies on hand - plenty of glucometer test strips, some gravy wet food and some Karo syrup.

You think he will be high tonight, and I suspect you are correct. In that case we would give the 3/4U he was getting. But what do we do if he isn't? What if he is still in the 150 region? Given that we don't have more than one nadir reading and we don't want to send him into shock. I know having a complete profile is best, but we will at least try and get some more mid cycle numbers to have more information to go on. That's also really interesting about determining dosage based on the nadir reading. That wasn't completely clear from the information I had read.

P.S. We actually had another sugar cat quite a few years ago (2000). At the time the Vet had him Humulin (don't remember the variety; it might have been N). I remember doing a little research at the time about insulin for cats, but don't remember reading anything about Lantis. For whatever reason, I did not find this discussion board either. I wish we had all this great information when Neo was alive. He was difficult to keep at a stable BG level. Anyway, we have learned a lot from this website and really appreciate all the advice the members provide.
 
My kitty was one of those that loved to snack on World's Best corn litter. We switched to Blue Buffalo walnut clumping. Very similar size, texture and clumping and she has no interest in eating it at all. :-D
 
Are you giving him a low-carb treat for being so good about being tested?

The shoot/no shoot threshold of 200 is a general guideline used with new members here on the Feline Health forum. They may be struggling with testing, switching to lower carb food, learning to deal with the newness of the diagnosis and the stress of caring for a newly diagnosed sugarkitty.

When a cat is prone to ketones, has had ketones in the blood or urine tests, has been hospitalized for DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) then the general guidelines do not apply. For special situations like with your cat, it's more important that your cat get insulin to prevent those ketones. It's also very important to keep a ketone prone cat hydrated because fluids help to flush out the ketones in the urine. One situation that sets a cat up for ketones is not eating enough, not enough insulin and an infection ( can be hidden, think teeth).

Over in our Lantus TR forum, the shoot/no shoot threshold is 150. As you gather data, you learn to shoot lower and lower and hopefully get your cat OTJ.

I think you need to give insulin tonight, even if the evening BG pre-shot, what we call the PMPS, is around that 150 mark. We need you to hold off on feeding, hold off on insulin and retest in 30 minutes if the number is below 150. We want to see if the number is a rising or a falling number. You could also test at +11.5 (30 minutes before your normal pre-shot test) and then again at PMPS to see if the BG number is a rising number.

We need you to take up all food, 2 hours before your pre-shot tests. We want a BG reading that is not influenced by food.

I'd like you to tell me when your regular test, shoot, feed time is for this evening. I think you need to be guided in testing and managing the low numbers.
 
We don't have any low carb treats (yet). For the AMPS and PMPS, we let him have something to eat after the test and shot.

We have been testing and shooting around 7am/7pm PDT. Food time is after shot and again when he's hungry (usually around +3 and +8 +/-). The last two readings I gave (last night's PMPS and today's AMPS) were with no food at least 2 hours prior, per your instructions to someone else.

Is it ok to give him extra water directly (like via a 3mL needle-less syring) if he hasn't been drinking a lot of water? We do add water to his wet food.

BTW, his ketoacidosis was (so far) a one-time thing at initial diagnosis and he did have an infection and temperature at that time, which has since cleared up with a treatment regime of Clavamox.

The website is still acting squirrely for me with timeouts and such, but I will try and post his +11.5 and PMPS numbers when we have them.
 
Is it ok to give him extra water directly (like via a 3mL needle-less syring) if he hasn't been drinking a lot of water? We do add water to his wet food.
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Yes, it's ok to syringe small quantities of water.

A lot of times, the extra water added to the wet food as well as the water already in the wet food, cause kitties to stop drinking water from a water dish. That is because, they are getting all the water they need from their food.

I've seen 2 of my 3 cats take one drink of water from a water dish in the last 7 months. They are getting all they need from their canned food.

You can check for dehydration by lifting up the scruff. Does it return back to normal quickly? (not dehydrated) Or does it stay tented or slowly go back down? (dehydrated)

You can also press on the gums with a finger and release. How long does it take to pink back up with blood again?
 
Thanks, again, Deb for your help and encouragement. As you suspected he was way tonight with 415 at +11.5.
 
My wife let him eat after the test because he was hungry (since it was high), so a PMPS BG at this point would be invalid.
 
We went ahead and gave him 3/4U. Will see if we can get BG before bed (it would only be about +3.5).
 
Ok, understood. You gave him food after the +11.5, did not test again at PMPS. Will get another test at +3.5. If that numbers is much lower, like 50% or more lower than the +11.5, you should put up the 911 post icon on your very first post in this thread and ask for help.

I'm not expecting that he'll drop real low, not with this high number, but cats can do the unexpected.

If you can get a +2, that may tell us which direction Gizmo is headed. If it's going to be an active cycle, normal cycle, or very active cycle.

I'd love it if you would be willing to set up a spreadsheet and link it into your signature. Gives us a way to follow along with the BG numbers from cycle to cycle and make suggestions.

This post from the Tech Support forum tells you how. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

If you need help, ask. There are a couple of us here in Feline Health that set them up for people. You do need a Google account first though.
 
Ok, will try and do a +2. Can you elaborate a bit more on the different cycle types you mentioned (or point me to a link). I realize it's getting late back in MA. Your last posting has a timestamp of 6:58pm PDT, but it just showed up for me between 7:45pm and 8:10pm. I had the browser open to this page doing occasional page refreshes.

Iv'e got a Google account, so will fill out the spreadsheet.
 
There isn't a link to the active cycle types. It's just one of the benchmarks that often works to predict where a kitty might be headed based on the +2 number and how it differs from the pre-shot number. It hasn't been formalized anywhere that I know of. Just something I learned in my time here and made some notes about.

General Guideline regarding pre-shot number and +2 relationship.

If +2 is a lot more than the pre-shot, it's probably going to be an inactive cycle. You probably can head off to sleep or work.
If +2 is similar to pre-shot, it's likely to be a normal, active cycle Lantus cycle. You probably want to get a +4 and a +6. Leave out some extra food if you go to work.
If +2 is much less than pre-shot, it's likely to be a very active cycle, with possibly an early drop. More testing and monitoring required. Definitely leave out some extra food, maybe even some higher carb food, so your cat has something to eat if they drop really low.

ECID. Every Cat is Different. ECID Every Cycle is different. ECID. Every Caregiver is Different.

So although these guidelines work in a lot of cases, they may not hold true for your cat or hold true for every cycle.
 
So, his +2 (more like +2.25) reading was 310. From your description, that sounds like either an active cycle or between normal and active (not knowing when his nadir is actually occurring). Will try for a +4, but don't know if it will happen as my wife (primary poker and care giver) is very tired and may not be able to stay up another two hours. In any case, we will leave out some extra food for him.

If we don't get a +4, any general guidelines for the AM shot based on his AMPS level (150/200/250/300/350)? We can try for a PM +11.5, as well as the AMPS (both with no food). I'll make an effort to come home from work around his AM +6 time, too, so we can get a BG to help determine the pattern.
 
Set the alarm to wake you/wife up for a test?

+11.5 415
PMPS n/a 0.75U
+2.25 310

So a 105 point drop or roughly 50 points an hour. Lantus usually has onset by +2 so we are seeing the effects of this shot. There is still a lot of room to drop, but that is a fast drop. I'd feel safer if you were able to get one more test before bed. Is that possible?

As far as a dose for tomorrow, I'd suggest staying with the 0.75U dose for a full 6 cycles. We will probably need to increase but only time and some more BG readings will tell us that. Unless we catch a BG under 50 tonight. That would be a reduction.
 
Good morning. Unfortunately, no mid-cycle reading last night. This morning, at PM +11.5 he is 115. My wife is uncomfortable giving 0.75U and wants to do 0.50U or even 0.25U. We will check again at AMPS to see what the trend is.
 
Ok, I'd suggest 0.5U if you haven't already shot. Good to get another test if you have not fed yet. So we know if it's a rising or falling number.
 
We shot at 0.25U. We plan to get a +6 BG today.

As I mentioned in the background post, we had another sugar cat quite a few years ago and he had several incidents of symptomatic hypoglycemic shock where we had to rush him to the Vet. I know Lantis acts differently then the Humulin we used back then, but it's hard, especially for my wife, to overcome that fear of shooting too low.

What she wants to do now is start over and go low and slow, with 0.25U consistently for 6 cycles and see what his BG is like, then bump him up to 0.50U for 6 cycles, if necessary, etc. That will help build consistency and confidence. Gizmo's behavior (the 5 P's and his overall activity level), seem to be best when he's in the mid-100's even into the low 200's - even though I know that is on the high side of typical.
 
Ok, SLGS protocol it is. We'll have other people that use that protocol. SLGS Protocol

Hypos with clinical symptoms on Lantus insulin are rare but they do occur. We understand your caution and concern. Our number 1 goal here is to help keep your kitty safe. I kept a copy of the hypo instructions in with my hypo kit.

IN CASE OF EMERGENCY - YOUR HYPO KIT
Put together NOW the following items and put in an easily accessible place!
â—Ź Phone number of your vet
â—Ź Phone number, address and map/directions to your nearest emergency vet (or phone number of the cab company and some cash/credit card)
â—Ź Karo syrup, honey or corn syrup
● High carb canned food with gravy – 2-3 cans
â—Ź Some favourite treats
â—Ź Spare pack of 25 blood glucose strips
â—Ź Coffee for you, or chocolate ;)
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You might want to print a copy of these instructions, in case you think your cat may be hypoglycemic. Sometimes the board is having issues and you can't get help here or the experienced folks are just not around. There is a Facebook group also. https://www.facebook.com/groups/62167000201/ It's more social but can give advice in an emergency also.

It's not until a cat drops under 40 that you need to be concerned. We try to keep a cat at 50 or above, for a safety margin. We know how to feed and when to test to bring those BG numbers back up. Most people on this board can walk you through a low numbers situation and prevent those hypos. Edit your very first post in the thread, put that 911 icon on your very first post and yell for help. Those 911's really catch our attention.

If you do not see anyone here on the Health forum, look over in the Insulin Support Group Lantus TR for some help. There are often folks on over there later at night when Health has become quiet.

If someone answers your post and suggests you shoot with low numbers, that person has committed to staying with you until you are out of danger, or they have found someone else that can take over and give you the support you need. If the person answering your post says they are going to find someone else to help, they have either sent a PM or posted over in Lantus TR to get some eyes over here to help you out. That's the way we work here. You are not left to twist in the wind or manage this on your own. We are here to support you all the way.

Hope that information will help you in the event of any low number situation.
 
Thanks, I really appreciate your patience and all you and the others do here. I already printed out the Hypo checklist and have it posted. :-) Both my wife and I feel the postings and assistance on this board have saved Gizmo's life and put him on the right track, even if we may still be a little overly cautious. :-)
 
Hi Bill,
Any chance you could get an earlier test, like +2 or +3?
Here's why - as you know, Lantus and Humulin are quite different. And I can certainly understand any hesitation to shoot low numbers given your history with Humulin. And Lantus can be shot on lower numbers, as the dose is determined primarily by the nadir rather than on the preshot number....

My concern today is the trend of the numbers. Gizmo went from 400+ last night and dropped to 97 this morning, and it looks like it was still dropping at AMPS.

Even though you only gave .25u, with Lantus there is still the "depot" to consider. A prior, larger dose can still have residual effects on the BG even when you reduce the dose. There usually isn't an "instant" reduction in the effect of a dose like you would expect with an insulin like Humulin. So you could see more drop in the BG even from a tiny dose than you might logically assume would happen.

A +2 or +3 test is a great "early warning system" to catch falling numbers early.
 
I second getting another test before you head off to work. You shot on a dropping number. Gizmo may be headed even lower.

If you can't get another test, leave out plenty of HC (high carb) food for him to eat during the day.

We usually recommend you stall and not feed or shoot until the number is rising, especially with those low numbers and not much history to know how low Gizmo may drop.
 
Thanks Carl & Deb. I can't do a +2, but +2.5 or +3 is doable. He was ravenous this morning, so ate quite a bit after his shot, which should help. I just updated my signature with his SS (such as it is) and will post again after his next BG test (between +2.5 and +3).
 
We'll take the +2.5 or +3 then. If it's a lot lower, you may need to carb him up, i.e. feed HC (high carb) food to raise the numbers.

I have read only access to your SS now. Looks good.
 
His +2.5 is at 57. We fed him some high carb dry kibble which he ate, although not sure how much to give.
 
Do you have any higher carb gravy style canned food on hand? This serving of dry is OK, but it takes dry longer to take effect.
57 is still fine, and you did the right thing feeding him. Can you test again in 30 minutes?
 
Yes we have some gravy wet and are feeding it to him now. Will retest in 30 minutes.
 
Good:-)
Don't go overboard with the food. Just a tsp or so. You want to slow a drop down, but you don't want him to "scarf and barf".
 
No problem, Bill. I'll be here until you don't need any help. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
 
81 at 1 hr after previous test, 30 minutes after a bit of dry and 20 minutes after gravy.
 
Good, so it worked! ;-)

AMPS ~ 97
+2.5 ~ 57
+3.5 ~ 81

At this point, you can put away the gravy and the dry.

A tsp of low-carb is okay if you want. And a test in an hour. You just want to try to keep the numbers from dropping back down, while at the same time, not make them rise up "artificially" from higher carbs.
 
He's alert and seems to be doing well, so out plan is to skip the +4.5 and test at +5.5. Is that ok? My wife doesn't want to overdo the poking.
 
Has he eaten since the gravy a while back?

If not, then maybe a spoon of low-carb and then you can wait another hour.

I understand not wanting to overdo the pokes. But also keep in mind that most of the time, you can't judge where his BGs are at just by looking. I've seen people post here that got 30s on their meter and had no clue before the test that kitty was that low. I don't think that's the case right now with Gizmo, but just something to keep in mind.
 
Understood. Yes, he did eat some more after the gravy. His +5.5 will be in 25 minutes. (1:05pm PDT).
 
OK, good. I would think you'll see a number like the last test or higher at 5.5. If so, he should be okay for a while, and not need more pokes. But let's see what the number is first.
 
I think you're good until +11. The reason I think that test might be useful - it looks like he's climbing. If you get a +11 and a PMPS, you should see the same trend, and that's what would be logical (as opposed to this morning where he seemed to be falling at shot time). Getting both the +11 and PMPS will let you know for sure.

You handled all of this great, Bill. And let your wife know she has good instincts. :smile:
My wife is uncomfortable giving 0.75U and wants to do 0.50U or even 0.25U. We will check again at AMPS to see what the trend is.
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Oh, one other thing. You can go up to your first post in this thread and change that "911" to one of these - :mrgreen:
 
Thanks for hanging in there Carl. Should we still observe the 2 hour fast prior to PM shot? You don't think it will continue dropping at this point?
 
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