Bouncing

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Kathleen and Fred

Kathleen and Fred

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Just to catch you up....

Fred is my sugar cat (Avatar to come when I can make the pic smaller -- more things to worry about just now!)On the 12th, we (Fred & Bella & I) lost our dear Lucy-Fur (15.4 yrs) to kidney failure. She was Fred's best friend.
On the 13th, we go a huge snow and, as it melted, it crashed all around the house, sending Fred and Bella under beds.

He's been stressed with all the changes and confusion from his usually-calm life. He's 12.6 years old and was diagnosed in 2009.
I test and shoot at home, but was told by my vet to just do a "test day" once a month and decide on insulin (ProZinc) dose from there. She doesn't recommend changes doses every day -- or even very often. She feels his body should get used to one dose.
For the past few months, I've been giving 2.5u (100/syringes) Am/Pm. He's usually around the low to mid 200's on Test Day.

When he began to show stress, I came back to the board and was told to test during the day when possible (I work part time). His numbers are here for you to see. (Want to change name of chart, but that will have to wait, too.) The other forum said I should come here for more specific advice. I've been told that Fred is "bouncing", which sounds bad to me, but you may be able to help with MY :oops: stress, as well.

Fred was scheduled for a routine vet visit for blood work, but I can't put more on him right now, so I'll wait until things calm down.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Hi Kathleen and Fred,

Yes, I think Fred could be bouncing. I am so glad you decided to check his levels daily rather than monthly. As you found, you just can't any fix on how the insulin is working otherwise.

So for the past two days, it looks like 3 units was maybe too high a dose for the 220s. The 94 might have been the lowest point in that cycle or he may have gone lower before or after then. And if it was a number his body wasn't used to or so low that it triggered a response, his body could have released extra glucose and caused his numbers to rise.

If I were you, I would continue to get data and then we can try to analyze it and see what might help.. Before each shot and in that 5-7 hour time frame after the shot are very helpful numbers. It could be that he needs a reduction in dose but it is hard to be sure with the limited data.

We have a protocol for ProZinc that may help you figure the puzzle that is Fred.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=109077

If you can get some more data and post daily with the numbers, we'd love to help you figure this out if we can.

One question: what do you feed Fred? We have found that a wet low carb diet really helps bring down blood glucose levels.
 
And by the way, bouncing is very normal. Almost every cat on the forum does it. Some bounce more than others, but it's just a normal body response.

And, if you haven't already, check out the other threads and other peopel's spreadsheets. You can see how they are dosing different numbers and how the testing helps them see what is happening and how to adapt.
 
I'll be testing at Am & Pm with more at 5-7 hour intervals, as you suggest. Would appreciate your taking a look at the spreadsheet over the next day or two to see how it's going.

Since his diagnosis, all my. Acts have bee on wet food. I've tried everything from expensive brands to Feline Pride raw food. Right now, Fancy Feast, Friskies and Sheba are being served because I can get a good price at BJ's....not all is low carb, I guess. There are limited flavored on Binky's list!

I've thought about making my own food, but it just seems so daunting. He does love rotisserie chicken, but I don't think I should excite him with that just now! The food issue is almost as difficult for me as knowing what to do with insulin.

This site is my only hope!!

Thanks
 
Yes...now I remember that list....sadly, I'm not doing so well. Is there a food source that you would recommend for those of us on fixed incomes? I'm willing to try making food, but am afraid. I won't get in all the nutrients.

Fred's number for +7 is 251....doing better!
 
Lots of us feed Friskies pates. They are about the least expensive. I buy mine at Costco by the case. If you find a flavor Fred really likes, you could order a case at a time from your local pet store and maybe save a little.
 
Thanks...already have some of that and will transition to more. By the way, a lady who fosters cats suggested putting a little real pumpkin (not pie filling) in their food. She says it helps with digestion and constipation. Someone else suggested chopping up a little kale occasionally to supply greens. Any thoughts on these ideas?

Is there an high-end ($) food you would recommend? Might be able to swing that occasionally. And, is it Ok to just boil up some chicken parts for their dinners?
 
Oh...one more thing...I can't find a consensus on what amount to feed. Some people/vets say 1oz per body weight, some go by calories ( which are hard to find), but don't say how many calories to feed. What is the proper weight? Is that by age or body structure or health condition - like diabetes?

Any help on this would be appreciated.
 
If you're using prozinc (as opposed to pzi), it's a u-40 concentrated insulin, and your dose isn't as high as it sounds. 2.5u with u-100 needles is really only 1u of u-40 prozinc. Can you check your bottle and see if it says u-40 or u-100?

Re food: my boys (~10-12 lbs) get about a 5.5oz can of friskees each per day. That's on the low side, but they aren't wasting food or acting hungry, and it seems to have helped settle Cass.s numbers when I cut back. They get 4 meals a day, at shot time and halfway between. I don't remember the rule of thumb, but I calculated it once, and for an ideal weight of 11.5lbs, they should get slightly more than a can of friskees per day (like 1 1/8 or less). Calories vary a bit but they're all in the 230-240ish range.
 
Dr lisa's formula is calories per day = 13.6 X optimal body weight +70
Here's a chart with normal feline weights

http://www.google.com/search?q=body...hl=en&client=safari#biv=i|1;d|xiFuHNwBD6d6mM:

Yes, a few bites of plain cooked chicken with no spices is fine if you want to add protein to canned food. It also works as a good low carb reward when you are testing.

Some people feed Wellness for higher quality foods. I always figured if he was a cat in the wild, he'd be eating rodents, bones and all so I don't worry about byproducts in cat food. :mrgreen: Maybe others will have more suggestions.
 
We feed Fancy Feast classics on the low carb list to Eddie as well as a couple of the Weruva "Cats in the Kitchen" brand and Tiki Cat brand varieties. The Weruva and the Tiki are pretty spendy, but there are some good low carb, high quality options. Every time I open a can of the Tiki chicken varieties, it looks yummy! I think to myself that I could just mix in some mayo and put it on a piece of toast, and voila! - a nice snack for me! :smile:
 
Honey, I'm on disability, so I understand the financial end of this. My babies eat Friskee's Pate', the low carb ones on the Dr's lists, under 9 carbs for mine. There are several flavors that I buy and my Lucian is picky. He is also 15 yo now, dx'd 1/2013.

As for bouncing, they all do it, most of them on a regular basis. Some more than others, but they all do it, it's normal. Relax! Breathe! and drop that stress level! It's not good for you or kitty! :-D

There is a lot of experience on these boards, you won't be given wrong advice. There is more experience here with Feline Diabetes, than ANY single vet can possibly have.

My Lucian, being Lucian, has been thru Lantus, Levemir and now PZI. He's doing better now than he ever has. I would have never been able to get thru the last 14 months, if not for the wonderful folks here. My vet knows almost nothing about PZI and never knew you could give cats Levemir, only gave Lantus. Now she is watching Lucian as a 'test subject'. Once she saw Lucian's SS and the work that I have done, she is all about letting us do it on our own. She says, I know my cat better than she does and that's true. Some vets just get pissy if you do anything on your own, but then, some Dr's do too. I think most will be accommodating when they see that you are serious about taking control of your cat's treatment. My vet even wrote us a scrip for Levemir when she saw that he was doing better on his SS. I told her the truth, that the Levemir was donated by a friend that used it, to see if he responded better than on the Lantus. She had no problem with it once she saw the results. Unfortunately, a couple months later it stopped working well for him and she was more than happy to get the PZI for us. I've come to realize that most cat caregivers have no interest in doing what we do for our cats and I think that is the biggest reason that vets hold back on things like home testing, etc. I think being honest on what you are going to do, will get them to come around. If not, find a vet that will cooperate with you.

Oh and having the vet run a curve for you is a major waste of money. Even my vet says that the stress of being in the vet's office will make the numbers abnormally high and agrees with me running Lucian's curves when needed. So don't let them corner you into that expense, you will get the accurate numbers by doing the testing at home.

Big Hugz! :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
Thank you everyone for helping Kathleen and extra sweet Fred out!

I suggested she come over here from Health.

Here's her post from there http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=113720

Kathleen, since I use Lantus, I will leave you in the wonderful hands of these great people! They can help you with the rest of this journey, but I will wish you and Fred the best and come check on you now and then.

Each day, you should start a new post here (we call them condo's) and in the subject line you'd put the date, cat's name and your AMPS number. As you get tests in during the cycle, you go back to that first post and "edit" the subject line, so if you get as you get tests after your AMPS time, you're subject line would read
2/18 Fred, AMPS 306,+3 412,+7 251

In the body of the post, first put the link you the prior days post. Just copy the link, click on the URL tab and paste the link in between the your link here[URL] Then in the re...-condition-scoring-chart]body condition chart. If he's overweight, we can help you learn how to take weight off....if he's underweight, that should improve as he gets more controlled, and if he's about right, then knowing how much he weighs now will allow you to make sure he's eating enough (but not too much) to maintain it.
 
Thanks to everyone for your support and great advice. I will try to post each day using the system you call "condo". (May not get it right at first!)

You are right about my needles. I got a conversion chart on the Health forum site a year or so ago and use my u-100 needles with Prozinc because I can get them very short and sharp. So my 2.5 with u-100's is like 1.0 or less with the u-40 needles. That may help some of you to breathe easier!!

Thanks, too for the feeding advice. I'm not too far off the mark, then. Fred is what your chart calls "stout" but loves to eat. He's very tall and long. Still I would like for him to be closer to 14 lbs than 16 lbs. My vet, who is very supportive of my home testing and the info I get on this site, thinks I should use the Hill's diet products. But from what I've read, that is an expensive scam. I will read the sites you've provided and see if we can't just cut back gradually.

We had a good afternoon. The sun came out and the snow is melting. Spring just might be around the corner for Virginia, which means chipmunk-chasing season is on the way for Fred! That should get off those pounds. And maybe we can all get over the terrible loss of Lucy-Fur, who will always be with us in spirit.

Please check in with us later....didn't update the SS yet, but the PMPS was 222 and I gave 2.5u.

Thanks again
 
Oh, I didn't notice you were in Richmond. I'm just north of Raleigh, so almost close enough to be neighbors. :-D Nice to be warming up huh?

Friskee's pate is the cheapest. Large cans are .98 at Walmart. There are a couple in the Walmart brand that are low carb, but none of my cats will eat them. Same with the few 9Lives that are low carb. They love Fancy Feast, but with 3 of them, I can't afford that. There are plenty of flavors in Friskee's, at least a dozen under 9 carbs, check the lists, so you'll surely find several that your baby(ies) like. Petsmart has several flavors of low carb in their house brand, cheaper than Friskee's even, can't remember the name, but my cats don't like them either. So it's Friskee's for us. Considering they were all strays, they sure are picky! :lol: They ate the same dry food for 14+ years, but won't eat the same flavor wet food twice in a row! Go figure! ohmygod_smile

Hang in there hon, everyone here is more than happy to help you with whatever you need. I don't give direction, as far as insulin goes, haven't been on PZI long enough to know what I'm doing yet. But anything I can help with, don't hesitate to ask. :YMHUG:
 
Fred says to tell you, we're in good hands with a fellow Southerner on board!!

It's hard to take in so much information at once....but how glad we are for the support!! I may have to go over these notes and suggestions many times before I get it all right.

In the meantime, thanks so much for being there! Look form Fred's results tomorrow. Hope he continues to settle down.

Good evening from the Old Dominion!!
 
Hey Kathleen, Fred looked pretty good today. The 199 at +8'could have meant a lower nadir around +6. And no big bounces, good preshot numbers. I think the 2.5 is good for the 300s. I wonder if a little less for the 200s would keep his preshots a little lower. Often PZI cats use a sliding scale with a little different dose for different preshots. You might check out other people's spreadsheets to see how it works for them.
 
Do you think I should keep 2.5u a little longer to see where this ends up? Somewhere here I read where it takes ProZinc longer to take hold with dose changes. May more to 2.0 on Friday after we get one more day of data at 2.5u.

Just don't want a repeat of bouncing if. I can help it.

Thanks
 
What I am thinking is to keep the 2.5 for the 300 preshots, but a little less for the 200s. But you need to go with what seems right to you. There are no right or wrong answers here - just ideas and collecting data so the answers come clearer.
 
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