8/11 Onyx AMPS 262, +2 186 +4 61 +5 57, +6 76, +7 101

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Onyx & Klepto

Onyx & Klepto

Member Since 2013
Hi LL!

So far so good today, I'm happy to see another blue for Onyx. Even though she's been on 2U for a week, is it safe to assume that over the next few days, while I'm seeing how the new Young Again diet is going to affect her numbers, I should keep her at the current dose? I don't want to drop the dose until I see that it's truly warranted, but I also don't want to increase the dose before all the Wellness carbs are out of her system, which could then cause a drastic drop once they're gone. She's now dropping slow and steady, and I'm more than okay with that.

Onyx just had her first semi-loose BM, but I was warned that might happen. I'll keep my eye on it, as I'm planning a vet visit in a few days. She was quite sleepy yesterday and didn't eat every 2 hours like she usually does, but I'm guessing that could also be attributed to her numbers coming down--in conjunction with a high protien diet that is sticking with her longer. All in all, I'm feeling good about things; much better than I was a week ago.

I also want so send out a BIG HUG to my "partner-in-Young-Again-crime", Dara (and Bob). We're traveling this less-than-familiar (and less comfortable to FDMB) road together with this new dry food, and she's been a huge support system to me. I'm so glad everyone was there for her last night--and that's she's feeling better today. Makes me so happy.

Thanks, everyone...and enjoy your Sunday.

EDIT: AMPS 262, +2 186, +4.25 61
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Hi Brandi!! Although I'm not experienced with the YAZC (not many of us are, other than Dara and Bob right now...lol) I think I'd say yes...Hold your current dose until you get an idea of how the food is going to effect him...unless he "earns" a reduction by dropping below 50

I'll be watching to see how Onyx is doing, as will others I'm sure. Although I'm blessed that my cats think they've hit the jackpot when it comes to wet food, I'm interested in seeing if some of the claims made by YA seem to hold up with more kitties using it.

Just keep testing and asking...I know everyone will do the best they can to advise you.....and good luck!!
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Thanks, Chris.

Yes, you're very lucky to have a cat who likes wet food. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to go through can after can, brand after brand, but they all elicit the same horrifying response in her. But like everything, ECID--just like humans--and therefor must be treated as such. I'm just so glad this alternative exists. Clearly, the Wellness Core had no affect on her numbers, but so far, the YA is. Only time will tell what that means for the entire picture of her FD

Hopefully Dara and I will have similar success to Melanie and Ninja with this food. Fingers, toes, legs, eyes and paws crossed!

:smile:
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

A couple of thoughts...

It looks like Onyx's numbers are lower today! I would give the new food a couple of more days to see if there are any more changes in Onyx's numbers before increasing the dose.

I don't know that you want to free feed the YAZC. It's very calorie dense. If you're giving Onyx as much as she wants, it will probably cause considerable diarrhea and she may gain a lot of weight. You may need to follow the recommendations about the amount to feed daily and spread it out over the course of the day.

Have you figured out what you're going to do if you need to feed HC if Onyz is refusing canned food? I'd really encourage you to have a plan so you don't get caught by surprise. I wouldn't recommend a dry food since it may take too long to get in and out of Onyx's system.

YAZC is unknown territory when it comes to the TR Protocol. Unfortunately, the information that's provided by the company isn't "as fed" values and it's unclear if the food is really zero carb -- it's probably low carb but not zero carb. It would be great if you kept good notes on your SS (amount that Onyx is eating or any other observations) so not only you can keep track but we can begin to accumulate data on how the TR protocol works if a dry food is incorporated into the plan.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Hi Brandi - that's so nice of you to say (about the support). I've kind of felt like I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off and acting like a crazy person!!! It's good you are home and you can test, test, test and keep an eye on Onyx. I've noticed the kitties definitely don't eat as much as they used to, so there must be something to what the company says about them eating smaller amounts. It freaks me out a little, but maybe I just need to get used to it. Sort of like shooting the low numbers! YIKES!!

Glad you are seeing some blues! I got some today too! :thumbup

If Onyx's poop remains loose, try the enzymes that Melanie suggested. She said they really worked well for Ninja.

Now that I have my wits about me and Bob's bouncing, it will be fun to see what happens now. I hope we see some big changes with this food.

Chris & China said:
I'll be watching to see how Onyx is doing, as will others I'm sure. Although I'm blessed that my cats think they've hit the jackpot when it comes to wet food, I'm interested in seeing if some of the claims made by YA seem to hold up with more kitties using it.
Click to expand...

Hey Chris - my two civvies loved the wet food. Unfortunately, the one who needs it gave me the most problems!!! Well, you can't have everything I guess. I feel fortunate that Bob is so laid back and will let anyone test him. I feel bad for poor Bern who has to hire someone to help her chase down Tashie! :lol:
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Hey Brandi - I wanted to tell you (in response to Sienne's post), that Bob will eat a couple of wet food gravies so I keep them on hand for his really lownumbers. At first, I was using the fancy feast gravy lovers and he didn't like it, so I would have to use a syringe to put it in his mouth. I tried some others and found two that he likes. One is the CAts In the Kitchen (by Weruva) Pumpkin Jack Splash - it's all tuna with pumpkin soup. Bob will eat that gravy (because of the tuna), so I give him a TBS or two when his numbers go really low. Does Onyx like tuna? It's a good idea to figure out what she will eat and have it on hand because I'm sure you will get to experience a pajama party at some point. Even if you have to give it to her with a syringe.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Hi Sienne.

Glad I was on the right dosing track. I just wanted to be sure, for sanity sake...lol.

Onyx has always been on a "free-feeding" diet her entire life, so when the Young Again company said that's how they recommend feeding it, I was relieved, as it's what she's used. The only time I take it away is for those 2 hours before her shots. She's always been a few-bite-grazer. But I weigh her every few days, so if I notice a her starting to gain weight, I will try some alternatives. Becuase of the ketones, I want her to be able to eat whenever she feels hungry.

I do have a few gravy foods here for those potential low number moments. Along with a few other things, I figured I could give it to her with a syringe or large dropper if she won't eat it willingly. I did save some high carb dry, but I will ONLY give it if there's no other choice.

Because of the free-feeding, and a civie who won't stay away from Onyx's bowls, it's really hard to measure exactly how much she eats. But I will try to put more information on her SS, so the group can use the data. And you might very well be right that the YA is acually low carb and not high carb, but either way, it's much better than the Wellness was. From other research I'd done, it was actually almost 18% and not 11%, which explains why it didn't do anything for Onyx's numbers. But I shall do my best to be more thorough in my notes.

Thanks, Sienne.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (Worry???)

Okay, Onyx just had her first ever green at 61. Should I start to worry yet, or give her anything with carbs? Test every 30 till it starts to rise?
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

Hey Brandi - if she keeps going down, put the "911" in your subject line and the advisors will take a look.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186 (hold current dose?)

actually, I just looked at her ss- you should probably do the 911 now. She is probably going to keep going down and one of the advisors will walk you through the process!
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

While you are waiting for someone to come on with you, you may want to read the sticky at the top of the Lantus board - it's called "Shooting & Handling low Numbers". It walks you through the process of handling low numbers. Don't panic because it really works, you just give her a little HC, MC or LC and you can control her numbers that way....
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

If he's still been eating throughout the day, I'd just retest in 20-30 minutes...if he goes under 50, then you'd need to get the gravy or some karo into him (but just a little...you don't want to send him into crazy high numbers, just to have them crash back down when it wears off)

A couple teaspoons of gravy or a couple drops of honey, Karo or syrup is enough, and then retest in another 20-30

Just an idea...I know Onyx doesn't like wet, but if you have some low carb wet he's shown any interest in (in the past), might try giving him a teaspoon or 2 now....I've found when China gets into those lower numbers, she wants to eat more
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

when did he last eat? I would feed something and retest in 30 minutes.

Since we have no data on how YAZC works with managing low numbers, you have to just try things and keep notes so you'll know what works. Be prepared to pull out the high carb if necessary.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

thanks, Ladies. She's actually just fine. She's eating and drinking now...walking normally. Just tested at 56
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

Chris & China said:
...if he goes under 50, then you'd need to get the gravy or some karo into him
Click to expand...
My opinion - since Onyx is not being fed the traditional low carb wet diet on which the protocol is based, I would tend to be more conservative until she has more data on how he responds to food. I wouldn't wait for him to go below 50, if he was mine. I would try to keep him above 50 for now.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

Understood Libby....that's why I first asked about eating...I'd rather see Onyx eat a little now too but if he just ate, the food hasn't had time to do much....dealing with the YA is totally different beast than those of us who can get our kitties to eat the LC wet food

I also added it might be a good time for her to try giving him a little LC wet...sometimes those lower numbers can get them to eat....it'd be nice for her and Onyx if he'd at least eat the wet when he needs to
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

no chance she'll willing eat gravy or any wet food. I gave her a TSP of milk a few minutes ago.

The food I THOUGHT I had with gravy (a grilled feast), wasn't. I'm so upset. Will get some later! UGH!!! I didn't think this would happen yet. but I have syrup and everything else.

Just did it again and it's 57. She just went to her bowl to eat again
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

Onyx & Klepto said:
thanks, Ladies. She's actually just fine. She's eating and drinking now...walking normally. Just tested at 56
Click to expand...
eating the zero carb? Just making sure I'm clear. :smile:

While I have my doubts that the food is actually zero carb, I'm sure it is fairly low carb. That might not be enough to keep her numbers from continuing to drop. You said you have some high carb wet food, right? I would give a tsp of that and retest in 30.

This is a GOOD thing, but there are a lot of unknowns so be careful. I know you will. :smile:

eta: you posted again while I was typing. I see that she didn't eat the wet. Milk might help a little. Other things people have used are Temptations, a little ice cream, honey ham. Some cats are lactose intolerant, so milk and ice cream *could* cause tummy troubles.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

Could you update the numbers on your first post so that people following can see the latest numbers. I hope the milk works. It causes diarrhea in some cats if they aren't used to it. Test again 30 minutes after that milk.

Make sure you are breathing too! :-D :-D
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx - AMPS 262, +2 186, +4 61 (should I worry?

Usually, the grilled food has some gravy. If it's chunky, you may need to squeeze the gravy out (i.e., pop the lid and then squeeze and turn the can over to get the gravy to drip out. (FF gravy lovers food has the most gravy.)

If you want to try to bump up the numbers more, I'd give Onyx a little more of the YAZC. It you put a drop of gravy or syrup/honey on it (and I literally mean a drop or two), do you think Onyx will eat it?
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, + 4.5 56, +4.75 57, +5.25 56

Given 2 TSP of Skim Milk (12% carbs)...she's eaten zero carb Young Again twice. She's holding so far.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, + 4.5 56, +4.75 57, +5.25 56

Does anyone know if there are many carbs in Catlax? That is hear treat she gets every night. I actually just gave her a little to see what affect it has.

She's holding around 57 for over an hour...
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, + 4.5 56, +4.75 57, +5.25 56

I imagine Catlax is pretty high carb. Here are the ingredients:

Cod liver oil, caramel, lecithin, malt syrup, white petrolatum, 0.1% sodium benzoate, (preservative), 0.036 I.U./g Vitamin E (dl-alpha-tocopheryl Acetate) (antioxidant), purified water.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, around 57 last hour (every 15)

Okay. I tried to find the nutrition values when she was first diagnosed, because she literally will NOT go to bed at night until she has some. I asked the vet if that could have contributed to her FD, but he said, "no way, not a chance". Sooooo, she still gets some, becuase she's it helps her GI tract so much. We'lll see in 15 minutes if it did anything to her numbers.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, around 57 last hour (every 15)

If you gave her a little bit a vasoline, (I know. It sounds awful but that's what's in the Catlax) do you think she'd eat it?

If Onyx is holding at 57, that's great!

I'd keep in mind that many cats are lactose intolerant and the milk may cause diarrhea.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, around 57 last hour (every 15)

Oh crap. Literally. She's already got some mild diarrhea from the food change. UGH!

Testing again in a few minutes.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx +4 61, around 57 last hour (every 15)

oh WHEW! That was scary.

Looks like the catlax was the trick. Was the ONLY thing she would take willingly, and within 30 minutes it brought her up to 76. Is that okay, or too much for these purposes?
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx AMPS 262, +2 186 +4 61 +5 57, +6 76

I'd say if it worked, that's a good thing...Onyx is at a nice number now and hopefully won't bounce through the roof tonight. Don't forget that any of the "sugars" (that's what's in the Cat Lax that brought her up) can wear off quickly too

I'd probably retest in about an hour and make sure she's staying up, but I'm sure you'll hear from others too.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx AMPS 262, +2 186 +4 61 +5 57, +6 76

Thanks, Chris. I've got everything ready to test again at the top of the hour...and more frequently if needed over the next few hours.

Obviously this negates the conversation earlier about holding her current does. I'm guessing we should wait until her PMPS to decide the dosing? Since Melanie went through this a few months ago with Ninja on the YA, here is her recommendation:

PMPS under 80 - 100: Cut back to 1U from 2U
If over 100: cut back to 1.5U
If under 80: .5 or smaller

What are your thoughts?

And thanks everyone for the quick responses for Our first green. You guys kept me calm!

:YMHUG:
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx AMPS 262, +2 186 +4 61 +5 57, +6 76

Lantus is dosed based on the nadir. As Libby recommended, since Onyx is on YA, you might not wait for her to go under 50 for a reduction. In that case, you new dose would be 1.75.

You did great today.
 
Re: 8/11 Onyx AMPS 262, +2 186 +4 61 +5 57, +6 76

nice job. :smile:

PMPS under 80 - 100: Cut back to 1U from 2U
If over 100: cut back to 1.5U
If under 80: .5 or smaller
Click to expand...
That depends on whether you are planning to use the Tight Regulation protocol (or a variation thereof) or whether you would rather start over. For Lantus, you don't want to dose according to the preshot number, remember we dose for the nadir.

I'm a TR person through-and-through, so my inclination would be to not start over (you tried that once before), but to modify the TR protocol slightly until you have a better handle on how the diet change affects Onyx. Decide what your dose reduction earning number is - most here use 50, but if you want to run a bit conservative maybe you would rather use 60 or some other number. Also decide on a number you won't shoot below (you'll be able to modify this too, once you have more data).

As an example, my KK eats dry food (medium carb dry food) and medium carb wet food. Because of his diet, I want to be more conservative than the TR protocol. I am currently using 60 as his dose reduction number, so if he goes below 60 I reduce his dose, and I don't shoot full dose under about 120 if I'm going to be away from home. If I'm home, I'll shoot around 100.

So what *I* would do in your shoes would be to shoot 1.75 units tonight and hold that dose until he either shows you that he needs another reduction, or until he needs for it to be increased again (at least a few days). That's me, but you decide what makes you comfortable.

One more note, since Onyx is not used to being in green, she will likely bounce tonight. Don't be surprised if her number keeps going up from here and is ugly tonight. Don't react to the high number by being tempted to shoot more insulin. The bounce will clear out on its own (can take up to 72 hours, give or take), so you need to just wait it out.

Good job today!
 
Thanks, Libby and Wendy.

I won't lie, I'm going to be a bit nervous for the next few days. Not knowing just how this food is truly going to affect her numbers, I'm hesitant. Seeing this happen so quickly after switching to this food, truly proves that her food was probably her biggest enemy. I definitely have no plan to start over. But I also don't want to put her in danger while the Wellness carbs are still leaving her system. They say 3 days, right? Well she's only been on YA alone for about 30 hours. So if she dropped like this after just over 1 day, I'm nervous about what that might mean for overnight...and tomorrow.

I'm gonna go chew on my nails for a few hours and think. I'm petrified .25 won't be enough, and I won't be able to wake up in the middle of the night. If the food change wasn't the whole reason for the lower numbers, I would without a doubt, comfortably drop .25. But because this food is so "new" to the group, I'm afraid the strict protocol on this reduction might not be enough, under these circumstances.

I value everyones opinion, and the TR Protocol, so much. But I truly believe there are exceptions to every rule--and in this case with such an unfamiliar territory--this might be just that exception?

I'm going to think about this for the next few hours and see what I feel comfortable with--or if erring on the side of caution over the next few days might be prudent.

Thanks everyone so much for your help--and advice. It's greatly appreciated!

:smile:
 
it doesn't have to be all or nothing, at least not right now. You could always try reducing by 0.5u instead of 0.25u. The worst that will happen is that you'll end up having to increase the dose again if the reduction doesn't hold. You have plenty of options. :smile:
 
Hey Brandi - Her numbers were GREAT today! And she didn't go crazy low. Yay! I dropped Bob quite a bit a few times when he went really low because I was so nervous. I ended up having to increase again, but that's ok. The YA is kind of weird and like you said, unfamiliar territory. Since I'm free feeding it, I can't tell if it's actually raising his BG or not. Maybe after my conference I might try one day where I take away the food and just feed them 2 or 3 times during the day and then test afterwards to see how it actually effects the BG. It would be nice to know!!
 
Brandi, I completely understand "cautious". When we got home after taking Neko for her radiation therapy (SRT) for her acromegaly, she started charging down the dosing ladder. At that time, we were about cat number 33 who had had SRT and of those, the majority were on levemir and few posted here at all. So, I was pretty much winging it with just one other Lantus SRT cat on here. We were at a much higher dose when we started going down, but I did deductions when we went below 70 and took it down in .5 increments. At some point, the .5 increments no longer worked and I changed to reductions if below 50 because that's what she needed, so we are back on TR protocol. You have to figure out what works for your cat. And always best to err on the side of safety.

All in all, a great day for you and Onyx. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: She saw some lovely green and it looks like the Catlax worked as HC. Gravy gives us a 20 point number bump so that's a good amount.
 
That's a great idea, Dara. I think once Onyx somewhat normalizesfrom the new food, I may try some experimenting as well. This food seems to lose it's "freshness" more quickly, so she likes it much better on a fresh pour when she can see it going in the bowl. Onyx has always been a free-feeder, so not sure how well it will work when I go back to work. But we shall see.

:smile:
 
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