7/26 Tomcat PMPS 130, +7=53, +7.5=60

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tomtom13

tomtom13

Member Since 2013
WELL, tom and I have decided to join our fellow greenies tonight....... :mrgreen: and you too Tashie..what ever number you turn out to be.....
:?:
deja vu?

He just ate a good amount an hour ago of LC so I am not going to worry yet. ~~~*****unless I need to ....perhaps I should be concerned. should I feed again now...or wait another 30?

of course, I would feed some MC now...but he doesn't like any I have. I tried to get his fav. newman's own (10%) yesterday at walmart...but they were out.

so question: how do you make MC again? take LC AND add some HC..i assume. but I thought I would ask


Let's get this party started....

~kelly
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58

That's a sizable drop by +2.5. I would give Tom some MC or HC food and re-test in 30 min.

Mixing HC and LC = MC.
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58

okay...will do.

thanks for the quick reply!!

~kelly
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58

Ai yi yi ;-)
 

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Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58

okay,,,,,,20 mins. later he was 50



I gave HC

test in 30?


thanks guys

you have your hands full tonight!! YIKES

~kelly
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

Oh Kelly! Not again! Make sure he goes JUST TO 49 for the reduction and hike him up .... God only knows, after today I might be chatting with you all night! Gonna grab some dinner and BBL .... hang in there! I just shot so have a little while before MY freak out comes - have to learn to chill whilst I can - easier said than done! Hang in there!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

Yes, Kelly...that's good.

Well...you new kids on the block have this thing about 49 to get the reduction and then aborting the cycle :lol: :lol:

Pssstttttt...you can abort a cycle any time you need to. If you are exhausted, sick, or just need a break from low numbers, you can abort a cycle. Talented is the person that can just let their cat dip his/her toes to 49!

It's kind of like adding beans to your brownies so you get tons of fiber. :lol:
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

It's kind of like adding beans to your brownies so you get tons of fiber.
Click to expand...

That's just WRONG :lol:
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

Bern said

Make sure he goes JUST TO 49 for the reduction
Click to expand...

marje said

you new kids on the block have this thing about 49 to get the reduction
Click to expand...


this is interesting....I was just talking to Carl about this last night. I really really really want to hold out for a 49....but something tells me...it is like playin with fire.....knockin on the Devil's door.....you know what I mean. ?????
:evil: :twisted:

what would I do as I stand around in the kitchen watching that clock when I know he is dropping and finally testing hoping I get a 49 and it is 22 or something....
:shock:

and as Carl told me: if a cat truly earns a reduction ....they will let you know. they are ...well wait...let me quote him ..as it was spot on:

carl said

and from all the kitties I've watched, if a kitty is bound and determined to get a dose reduction, it's going to happen. Yes, to some extent, you could see a 55 and intervene, and never see the 49. But if it doesn't happen that cycle, it's likely to happen in the near future if the dose needs to be tweaked down. When a cat is "done with this dose", they can be pretty insistent
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Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

So here's the thing.....

For a newly dx cat, one shouldn't be trying to keep them above 50 to keep them from earning a reduction. The goal IS to go down the dosing scale and OTJ. Normally, you would give LC for the 50s and if they are going to surf on that, great. But if they are ready for a reduction, they will earn it as Carl said.

The reason we've seen all this HC and gravy in the 50s lately is because the cats are diving down there early like Tom did tonight and we are trying to keep them safe. If you don't stop it early, he could be in the 30s in no time. You want to try and just stop the fast drop and then let the cycle take its course with normal feeding.

If a kitty slides down to a 50s number by +4/+5, the caregiver should be feeding LC and if the kitty earns a reduction...perfect.
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142, +5=101 PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50

okay 40 mins after HC he is 54

I want to say......THAT DIDN'T WORK VERY WELL...
:o
but.....I think it was Amy last night that said:

oh good. he isn't dropping...

just a different way of looking at it.......a better calmer way.

so.....he isn't dropping
;-)
but...should I offer more food or let him snooze away zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz??
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

Oh, Kelly! Don't they say something like "let sleeping cats lie..." NOT! Ha! Gees, I am so wound up - waiting for that dreaded +2 ---- came to see what you were up to! Or, "not UP" as the case may be! I am going to start to push my Gravy Lovers through the sieve to have "just in case" ....... went through TWO whole cans of it with her toady (don't tell Marje) :shock:

See ya in a bit .......... 45 to go! But she did eat like a piglet! Poor Boris, I think she is snarfing his food too! He keeps looking at me with this face that is saying "Mummm" ????
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

If a kitty slides down to a 50s number by +4/+5, the caregiver should be feeding LC and if the kitty earns a reduction...perfect.
Click to expand...
Your not to +4 yet, and the last bit of food didn't raise the BG. It held it steady though.
I'm thinking another helping of what you fed last test.
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

went through TWO whole cans of it with her toady (don't tell Marje)
Click to expand...

Too late....Marje is "in the room"....busted! :-D
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

Marje said

You want to try and just stop the fast drop and then let the cycle take its course with normal feeding
Click to expand...
.


okay, I went back and re-read this....so my question about re-feeding was already answered!!!

I am letting the cycle take its course....

checking every 30 of course.....to make sure he doesn't drop

thanks!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

okay carl

thanks for that

you are right about it only being +4......

I am on it!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58, +2.85=50, +3.5=5

Sorry.....I had to shoot Gracie and feed the other two beasts around here and Gussie rewarded me with a hairball before his dinner.

So you wouldn't normally feed LC at +3.5 or at a 54? I would! That's what normal feeding is. BUT...it isn't your fault you didn't understand that. I should have explained it a little more to you.

Let's say kitty starts at 120 and you fed him a meal and +2 is 100. +3 is 85. I would start giving a little LC when he hits green and do that....a tsp or so...until he flattens out and starts to surf. If he came down fast like Tom did, I'd first work to get him flattened, and then I'd give him small amounts of LC until he starts a nice level surf and I actually like having Gracie surf more in the 60s/70s than I do the 50s. IMHO.
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Tom! I'm so jealous!!!! Bob is out of the green club today. :sad: less drama but it still makes me sad. I guess I must be patient!!!

Good job with keepin the little fella going!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

So did you feed that 54 or not
Click to expand...

nope.

I didn't feed the 54.

only fed him HC once @50 about 1.5 hr. ago (and as far as feeding him LC at 50.....well, I don't quite have those balls of steel yet....I know when he is that low...the last thing he is interested in is food....so if it wasn't for the HC TREAT...he would never eat lowly LC!)

when he wants to eat now....I will give normal LC food and let him surf

unless of course he want to pull a Tashie or a Poe or a Bob and drop all night

but he is good surfer......

thanks!

hell, I am so confused...I don't know it I got an A+ or if I failed? don't just say "oh you did great"....I want to learn the correct way

thanks again
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Actually....you get an A+!!! Because you are learning about Tom and that is numero uno most important: Know Thy Cat!!

Here's what I just put on Poe's condo. And you are already figuring it out.

Here's my philosophy about karo and I had to learn this the hard way. When we were new, it was karo city. So we got into the habit of using karo all the time. Some old-timers recommended against it but we did it anyway because others were doing it. But then I realized that the way we were handling numbers was not working. At all. The HC/gravy/karo routine was, we felt (and we have no way to scientifically prove this so it's just our speculation), making the bounces worse. Many will say it doesn't....they could be right. But we thought it did for Gracie. So we changed our tactics all together. Again....this is only for Gracie....I can't say it will work for others. But we got rid of all the HC/gravy. I found that a nice 10% food worked really great for slowing her down and Wellness Core Turkey and Duck (5%) works for her if I want LC and want a surf. The only time I use karo is if she's in the 20s or low 30s and I want her up five minutes ago.

When we have new members come on, we do tend to go the HC/gravy/karo route because we don't know what will work and the CG is scared to death. Some cats are uber carb sensitive. Some are not AT ALL. The former may need those HC foods/gravys. The CG needs to start to get comfortable with low numbers and then experiment.

How did we find out that Gracie didn't do well with HC? We had written every bit of food on her SS and we could see the patterns. We started experimenting once we were more comfortable handling low numbers. And that's what each new member needs to do. They need to figure out what works to slow their cat down, what works to stop them, what works to bring them up, what works to get them to surf. Sienne has to use honey (karo doesn't work as well for Gabby) because Gabby is sensitive to gravy. But I think until someone knows that about their cat, they should try to figure out how to control the curve with the right foods and not grab for the karo.

I like to use the lowest carb food I can to get the job done. I never use anything lower than 4% or higher than 10% other than those rare occasions in the 20s/low 30s. You will need to find out what works best for Poe. '
Click to expand...

Does that help any more at all or make you feel better? I think you put on your cap, knew what works for Tom, did what you thought best and now he's surfing beautifully!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Tomcat, you party animal you! party_cat

Papaya is having a much more gradual descent tonight and is just thinking about green . . . but I may have to stay up just out of curiosity to see what Tomcat has planned for you tonight, Kelly! You are keeping him surfing very nicely so far, keep it up!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Tomcat! You little bugger! Tashie decided PINK was a better color for her PJ's ........ but that doesn't mean she won't like a shade of lime green tomorrow! I was all armed & dangerous with my HC gravy all sieved and in a little pot, all the syringes were sterilized and ready to go ( I have a half dozen of them all ready to fill) and she pulls a Pinkie on me!
Kelly, hang in there! As much as I WANT to go to bed, I'm jealous that Tash packed it in - it was one heck of a first day back! Thought I'd be able to sneak in under the radar - not!

YOU ARE DOING GREAT! Go KELLY & TOM! :RAHCAT :RAHCAT :RAHCAT
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

okay Marje

that was very very informative.....you should make that a "sticky"....or what ever they are called?/

this is what I will walk away with:

I like to use the lowest carb food I can to get the job done
Click to expand...

that makes so much sense now that someone actually wrote it down......

it really is simple actually.

but oh boy....when it is you holding that meter....your mind just checks out a bit and you lose all common sense. you just feel like death is a knockin at your door.....

this path we are all on...it is a strange one indeed. we are all trying so hard to get our cats healthy and OTJ and we are constantly getting in our own way! it is us....us....us.....we are the ones holding up our own cat's progress.....well, some of us. you know what I mean.

okay...well, I am brain dead tonight .....I am going to give one last poke and off I go. Tom is still surfing nicely thanks to you ....

~kelly
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

okay one last question before I go

speaking of reductions: if I would have waited it out....tom would have dropped below 50 in 3 of the last 4 cycles. he was close. now I do not want to reduce. I want to wait out the entire 6 cycles....so we don't have over-lap and back up the scale I go

but....I want to be safe too

are we good at current dose?

thanks eyes! thanks brains!!

`KELLY
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Kelly,
Yes, I think you're safe where you are, provided you can test like you have been. I don't mean stay up all night and test every hour. ;-) I mean test at the times where the tests are going to give you a "head's up" on a low number later in the cycle. Like if you test at +2 and see a much lower number than you saw at AMPS or PMPS, then you know to look out for a bigger drop, and you know that you can intervene to slow things down or bring the drop to a stop.

Make sense?
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

Kelly

You are responsible for all the progress Tom is making so don't sell yourself short!

I have often told Mike that I sometimes think it is our mistakes that hold Gracie back. But I know that if she was going to go OTJ, she would do it in spite of us.

On the reduction, I look at two things. If he hasn't actually earned it by going below 50, but if you feel he might have except for your feeding him, and you subsequently have a cycle where you a really struggling to keep his numbers up, then reduce.

If he's been close to a reduction but he easily comes up when you feed, don't reduce.

As you said...keep it simple. The protocol is a guideline but Tom might not have read the book :-D

Sleep tight!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

okay hold the phone

no bed for Kelly just yet

+7=53

so he dropped! will give LC

he had 1/2 can of LC about an hour and half ago

I thought I was gonna slip off to bed early tonight

okay....so back to that reduction question

;-) :smile:
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat AMPS 142,PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+

On the reduction, I look at two things. If he hasn't actually earned it by going below 50, but if you feel he might have except for your feeding him, and you subsequently have a cycle where you a really struggling to keep his numbers up, then reduce.
Click to expand...

In light of this latest test, Marje's timing on this comment was pretty good.

You're not having to work mega-hard to keep his numbers up, but he's not done surfing yet either it looks like. Having had no food for an hour and a half, it might just take this snack to put him back on track and allow you to sleep. That said, use this "next time". Maybe feed on one of the past couple of tests instead of not feeding?

Every time you do this, you're going to learn something new. Heck, I've learned stuff just from watching Tom and Poe tonight, and I've watched "this" a hundred times or more!
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+4=67, +7=

So hate it when they do that :shock: :lol:

You are dreaming of that bed and your head hitting the pillow and then....sorry, no!

If he follows logic, some LC and he should come up.
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+4=67, +7=

yes, carl....

good suggestion.....a little more LC food along the way next time......


Every time you do this, you're going to learn something new. Heck, I've learned stuff just from watching Tom and Poe tonight, and I've watched "this" a hundred times or more
Click to expand...

okay Carl, this is what we ALL REALLLLLLLYYYYY want to know,,,,since you learned something new tonight thanks to Tom and Poe...it is time to even the score:

WHAT IS THE REAL SECRET TO GETTING YOUR CAT OTJ IN 10 WEEKS!!!

now don't hold back.....there isn't that many people still up.....it will only be us few "in the know"

(I smile every time I see that in your signature)
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+4=67, +7=

WHAT IS THE REAL SECRET TO GETTING YOUR CAT OTJ IN 10 WEEKS!!!
Click to expand...

I'm gonna be SO MAD if he tells you and he didn't tell me :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
Re: 7/26 Tomcat PMPS 130, +2.5=58,+2.8=50,+3.5=54,+4=67, +7=

Honestly, Kelly?

Honestly, I have told people this before, Bob went OTJ in spite of me, not because of me. I was extremely lucky, blessed, fortunate, whatever word you want to put on it.
Here's what I did "right"...
I fed him low carb canned food, FF classics and Friskees Pates. Four meals a day.
I tested his BG without fail before shooting his insulin.
I followed my gut instincts when it came to dosage, because with PZI, I was able to adjust his dose depending on his preshot number. My gut instincts were very good, I guess.

Here's what I did wrong...
I didn't test nearly enough. In ten weeks I might have run six real curves.
I didn't test for nadir every day.

I was not a really active member on the board for most of the time Bob was on insulin. When I did come here, I spent 95% of my time reading. I researched the hell out of feline diabetes on line. I joined another board, much smaller than this one called sugarcats . com. A couple people from there encouraged me to come here, join up, and learn. I did.

Honestly, there was no secret in how I dealt with or managed Bob's diabetes. If anything, I probably didn't worry enough. I was more or less ignorant about bouncing and hypos and tons of other things. I didn't fret unless I saw a number under 50, and I only saw that twice. I probably missed it dozens of times. When I did see the 40s on the meter, I just fed him and went back to work or bed. That was stupid, but I was clueless.

I have never even seen a pen or vial of Lantus. Any suggestions I make here are the results of countless hours of reading, and countless PMs I've exchanged with people like Marje, Sienne, Libby, Jill, Dyana and several other wonderful ladies who have helped me to understand how Lantus works and how diabetes can be managed by following the TR protocol. Two years ago, I would not have gone near TR or Lantus with a ten foot pole. It scared the hell out of me. And I wasn't shy about saying so. Since then, through the gracious patience of many "tutors", I've come to understand it (I hope) and I've spent many a long night helping people do the all-nighters. And I've enjoyed every single minute of it. I've seen dozens of kitties go OTJ here, and to me, that is the biggest reward I get from being here. I want every single person who comes here to be able to put a note in their sig like the note that makes you smile in my sig. Even if they don't, I get a huge boost whenever I see somebody who sees a breakthrough, or who has a sick kitty who gets better, or just when I see a lightbulb go off in a new member's head that says "OH, NOW I get IT!" Those moments are priceless to me.

So that's my story!
 
;-) ;-) ;-)

don't worry Marje, you would be the first person I would pass it along to!!

God knows, you deserve it!

that was funny!



okay....back to reality....I will get a few more 30 min. rising numbers, crack open some LC, place on floor and call it a night.....

I will hold his dose.

like I said before....it is a good thing I don't have any plans to ever leave my house in the next 2 months.....so why not....hold dose! let's do it right!
 
But you will be able to leave your house...
Because as the days go by, you are going to "learn your cat" more and more each day. And you will reach a point where you will know when to expect the low dips, and when Tom will be just fine if you leave the house for a few hours to go to dinner and a movie, or whatever you choose to do. And when that day comes, I will drop by your condo and say "told you so!" :lol:
 
Marje,
What you need to do is train Tobey to test and shoot Gracie, and give Gussie his squids, then you and Mike can go out every night! I'm figuring Tobes feels left out at times since you don't poke him with sharp objects. :lol:
 
super cool and Neat story

I think you need to take just a little more credit though Carl......YOU LUCKY DEVIL YOU!!!
:twisted:

I always wished one of my characteristics would be: just more easy going......Tom has a low number...yawn...put down some food and stumble back to bed.......I know it does work for some....

I think most of your credit is in your instincts. you just knew your Bob....you knew when to juice him up and when to lesson the load.......you just knew. because you were connected with the fuzzy fellow.....and of course....love helped you heal him....okay enough of that sap....but it is true....

Thank goodness you stuck around and continue to help all of us. That is so generous!

Why would you have not touched Lantus or the protocol with a ten foot pole? curious....?
 
Why would you have not touched Lantus or the protocol with a ten foot pole? curious....?
Click to expand...

Whoa boy! That's a story. Lets just say we are delighted he drank the kool aid :-D

Sorry to leave you Kelly but I can barely keep my eyes open. Carl is up with you!

Good night....hope you get some sleep :-D
 
I couldn't wrap my head around needing to drop below 50 in order to get a reduction in dose. I didn't understand that when Lantus is working correctly, you can shoot a normal dose and see nice flat cycles even when you are shooting a unit or two into preshots like 110 or even lower. PZI just works differently. If you shoot a certain dose, you expect a certain amount of drop in numbers. You look at the preshot, and you look at the nadir, and you say "ok, so 2 units pushed it down 200 points....so one unit should push it down about 100 points" and you adjust accordingly. It works more like a "drug". Take one pill, X happens. Take 2 pills, XX happens.

And I didn't see how people could test so much so often. It seemed like everybody was testing 10 or more times a day. But what I came to realize is that yes, sometimes you need to test that often, but not every day. Some spreadsheets have only 3-5 tests a day a lot of the time, and the cats are doing just fine. That's mostly because the people who test less frequently have been doing it for a while, and they "know their cats".

I was opposed to Lantus and TR primarily due to my own ignorance. If I have another diabetic cat some day, I would probably be posting daily condos here, because I think "this way" offers the best chance at remission. I'd probably go with Prozinc with Bob, but that's because for him, I know that PZI worked, and I'd do things like I did then, only I'd test more often to keep him safe.
 
okay well I still have a 60!

he is at +8.5

surely he won't be dropping anymore right???? he is surfing a 60 for a loooongggggg way.

now I can switch gears and start to sweat and freak about AMPS VALUE

I hate low pre-shot values the most!!

I am the queen of delaying shots!! :shock:
 
I hate low pre-shot values the most!!

I am the queen of delaying shots!! :shock:
Click to expand...
You will get over that. Seriously. The best thing to do is drop in on other people's condos and "watch them do it". Look at their spreadsheets and how they use food to steer the numbers once they have sufficient data and have managed low numbers a few times. I don't think anyone here sees a 120 preshot when they are shooting 2 or 3u of insulin and thinks "Wow, awesome!!! I get to shoot a low blue number for the first time! Woohoo!!!" Everyone gets freaked out at first. The thing to remember is that when you do see that low preshot, and somebody comes on and says "I think you can shoot that number with the normal dose".... they have done it. Many more times than once. And they won't just tell you "go for it" and leave you hanging. They'll stick with you, check back in every hour or two for test numbers, or ask someone with a lot of experience to help if they can't stay online.
 
60 at +8.5 is beautiful! You can feed him a snack if you want to. He's surfing and loving the green numbers.
 
Good Night Marje...thanks for everything once again


yes, Carl ...basing a dose on the Preshot value would make me very happy!!

it is just against all logic to shoot a cat with 4 units of insulin when their PS value is 120!! very very difficult.

But like you said,,,,,Lantus does have such a nice remission rate.....makes all those ear pokes worth it

wait...what was that......oh that was Tomcat giving me the dirtiest look!!

okay...carl...what do you think?

you think I am good to go? place down some food, stick his nose down in it and go to bed?
 
I would get a +9, and if it isn't lower, leave food out and go to sleep. You're almost at +9 already, right?
 
yes, just about 10 mins.

okay.....I am gonna shut this off...clean up all the scattered cat food cans......and hope the poke is higher

if he is still 60 ...then what?

If he is lower....well, I am screwed.

but what if he is still surfing the 600000000000?
 
carl and marje: if you could only see the huge silly-a$$ed grin on my face! :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:

kelly: it's a joy to scroll down tom's spreadsheet. you're doing so well with him!
nice work!
 
If he's still at 60s, I still think you're good. Just leave food out. You need at least some sleep so you can see the meter for AMPS.
 
You need at least some sleep so you can see the meter for AMPS
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ha...so true!!!
:roll: :?: :roll: :-| :?:

okay carl...I am off. thanks so much for keeping us company and letting us in on your secret to success!!



Thanks Jill for the encouragement!

you all are so great!!

nite...Kelly and tomcat
 
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