5/15/22 - Kaz -AMPS 277 - Numbers Continue Drop

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Had to do something which I am 100% sure is incorrect but I did not feel like I could withhold the drug this would be no different than withholding drugs to a drug addict which could kill them.

So I have given him 2 units against my better judgement. I am assuming that the 2.75 is too stronger a dose for him based on the last few days and that this amount needs to be reduced but I am also guessing that 2 is way too low.
I do not have a plan as to what In am supposed to now do in the morning as I was expecting someone to tell me what I am supposed to do. Asking me my opinion does not help as I don't know what to do if I did I wouldn't be here for help.

I do know that I don't want to be sitting in my house in floods of tears feeling completely helpless
 
You should probably go ahead and shoot. If you can feed and test him and adjust the number of carbs that you feed him then you are "in control" as Bron said. If he were my cat, I would reduce by .25 units, but that's just what I would do. You have to do what you are comfortable with depending on how long you can stay up or if you can set alarms.
 
[USER=10387]@Claire[/USER] and Kaz said:
Had to do something which I am 100% sure is incorrect but I did not feel like I could withhold the drug this would be no different than withholding drugs to a drug addict which could kill them.

So I have given him 2 units against my better judgement. I am assuming that the 2.75 is too stronger a dose for him based on the last few days and that this amount needs to be reduced but I am also guessing that 2 is way too low.
I do not have a plan as to what In am supposed to now do in the morning as I was expecting someone to tell me what I am supposed to do. Asking me my opinion does not help as I don't know what to do if I did I wouldn't be here for help.

I do know that I don't want to be sitting in my house in floods of tears feeling completely helpless
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I am so sorry that you are in tears. I feel awful about that. The thing is that the TR rules say you can shoot the full dose; however, he is newer to the lower numbers and you are newer to them as well -- so I was trying to take that into consideration as well as factors like the fact that you said you needed to get some sleep tonight.

You haven't done anything wrong at all in shooting 2 units. You can always go back up again. It's just a temporary reduction. You have not hurt Kaz. You are protecting him and gathering data.
 
Sorry, I missed that you had shot. 2 unit is OK for tonight, it will give you the chance to gather some data. I would test again at +2. Normally we determine if a dose is too much insulin based on how low it takes the cat. He got down to 79 yesterday on this dose. That is a safe number and you have room for him to safely go lower. If you are following TR for dosing, he has not earned a dose reduction. When you shoot lower numbers, you typically end up with flatter cycles. If they drop 200 points starting close to 300 like he did today, he won't drop 200 points from low 100's, maybe more like 50 ish points.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I am so sorry that you are in tears. I feel awful about that. The thing is that the TR rules say you can shoot the full dose; however, he is newer to the lower numbers and you are newer to them as well -- so I was trying to take that into consideration as well as factors like the fact that you said you needed to get some sleep tonight.

You haven't done anything wrong at all in shooting 2 units. You can always go back up again. It's just a temporary reduction. You have not hurt Kaz. You are protecting him and gathering data.
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Suzanne I joined this site and have stayed here as I truly believe that you all care and want to help. I stopped listening to my vet a long time ago and I am fully relying on the help of this site. Is that fair on all of you probably not but my trust is in all of you not my vet and definitely not myself as I am still clueless. So far its been a matter of simply increasing doses to get the BG down I am not prepared to deal with situations like this especially as its the first time its happened.
When Kaz was first diagnosed I was in tears most of the time as I thought I was going to kill him by not being able to care for him properly but over the past 6-7 weeks I have found that much of my anxiety has gone as I have always had someone on this site tell me what I should be doing. This site has been a life saver for me. This is the help I need right now I need for someone to tell me what dose to give and if it needs to be reduced to tell me what to reduce it to as I don't have this decision making knowledge yet. It is ultimately my decision to follow your advice and I would only ever hold myself accountable.
Please know that I am truly thankful for all of your help and the help of other.
 
Sorry I was not around today. I know this is all confusing and scary at first. I think it will help you when you see that you can control the bg with high carb food and honey or karo if necessary. Remember on a human meter 50-100 is normal. Some cats that are diet controlled regularly go down under 40 bg 3-4 hours after they eat. It might be helpful to look at other peoples’ spreadsheets and what happens when the bg is under 100. Cats often have a flat all green cycle when regulated. This will get easier. I remember so well crying when I first started dealing with fd. I had cats with much worse diseases such as lymphoma and ckd but this was so confusing. Now I’ll here helping others long after I lost Max too quickly to CHF.
:bighug:
 
Hi Claire, I’m sorry I wasn’t around for you earlier……a bit early in the morning for me.
But you have had lots of support which is great. I know how much Kaz means to you and how you worry about hurting him….but you are doing a really really good job managing him. I know a lot of your anxiety is coming from the fact you have to go away in a June for 3 weeks. So all these different BG numbers are giving us really good data for when you are away.
Remember any number over 50 on the human meter is safe. And shooting lower numbers usually gives you a flatter cycle than when you shoot a higher number. And when you are home testing you are in control.

Is Kaz eating all his food that you leave in the Meow feeder when you go to work?
 
tiffmaxee said:
Sorry I was not around today. I know this is all confusing and scary at first. I think it will help you when you see that you can control the bg with high carb food and honey or karo if necessary. Remember on a human meter 50-100 is normal. Some cats that are diet controlled regularly go down under 40 bg 3-4 hours after they eat. It might be helpful to look at other peoples’ spreadsheets and what happens when the bg is under 100. Cats often have a flat all green cycle when regulated. This will get easier. I remember so well crying when I first started dealing with fd. I had cats with much worse diseases such as lymphoma and ckd but this was so confusing. Now I’ll here helping others long after I lost Max too quickly to CHF.
:bighug:
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Thanks appreciate the kind words
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Hi Claire, I’m sorry I wasn’t around for you earlier……a bit early in the morning for me.
But you have had lots of support which is great. I know how much Kaz means to you and how you worry about hurting him….but you are doing a really really good job managing him. I know a lot of your anxiety is coming from the fact you have to go away in a June for 3 weeks. So all these different BG numbers are giving us really good data for when you are away.
Remember any number over 50 on the human meter is safe. And shooting lower numbers usually gives you a flatter cycle than when you shoot a higher number. And when you are home testing you are in control.

Is Kaz eating all his food that you leave in the Meow feeder when you go to work?
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Hi Bron
Things not going so well for us for the past 24 hours. Kaz is feeling fine. I think my problem is that I have no control, and I don't know what to do. Going up with the dose when he simply had high BG wasn't that scary it's no different to me regulating my own medicine and I had someone telling me exactly what to do and when to do it. But now the numbers are coming down and I'm told not to shoot if the numbers are below 200 which they were today. I waited 20 minutes tested again and the # was 202 but by now I was so panicked I did not know what to do. Seems like people want me to make my own mind up as to what I should do but I don't know that's why I am here. I thought if I posted and asked for help someone was going to tell me exactly what I should do as I don't feel that I can make those decisions yet.

I've already said that I thought the 2.75 was too higher dose as the numbers were so low but I was incorrect and told to continue with the dose as is.

I know that these numbers are going to be under 200 again within the next couple days and I need a set plan on what I am supposed to do For EG

150-200 - then reduce shot to 2 units if you can't stall and have to leave. If you can stall wait 20 minutes test again if still in same range then give 2 units
100-150 - reduce to 1 unit
under 100 - no insulin

Not saying that the above ranges are correct I just need some sort of protocol to follow if I can't get any help to tell me exactly what dose to give. This way at least I have a set backup plan.
 
[USER=10387]@Claire[/USER] and Kaz said:
Things not going so well for us for the past 24 hours. Kaz is feeling fine. I think my problem is that I have no control, and I don't know what to do
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I’m glad Kaz is fine. You actually do have a lot of control when you are testing the BG. I think the issue is you are frightened of the lower numbers …..which we all are at first. And this is why I wanted you to swap to the human meter now and not just see the lower numbers on the day you were leaving for the trip. But the lower numbers are the normal numbers that we need to get Kaz into. The higher numbers he’s been in are too high and are not doing him any good. And compounding all this is the fact you have to go away for 3 weeks soon and I think that is affecting how you are coping with it all.
Now this is all very understandable, and we all get it, but we need to help you and Kaz get used to some lower numbers.

[USER=10387]@Claire[/USER] and Kaz said:
But now the numbers are coming down and I'm told not to shoot if the numbers are below 200 which they were today. I waited 20 minutes tested again and the # was 202 but by now I was so panicked I did not know what to do.
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Yes initially you were told not to shoot under 200 as all the preshots were all much higher than that. Then the BGs started to lower and you got a preshot of 177 and you shot the full dose which was great! And we saw that Kaz did well in that cycle and didn’t drop too low.
So 177 is your new no shoot number when you stall dont feed and test 20 minutes later. If you post and tag someone, we will help you decide what to do. If you are going to be home I would shoot the full dose even if it’s a bit lower as you will be there to monitor.
That way we can see how Kaz manages when you shoot lower numbers.
If you have to leave the house and you get a lower preshot, I think it is fine if you short a lower dose for now. Once you come back home from the trip we can get down to getting him into even lower numbers.

[USER=10387]@Claire[/USER] and Kaz said:
know that these numbers are going to be under 200 again within the next couple days and I need a set plan on what I am supposed to do For EG
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Lets see how Kaz goes with the 2 units and the preshot of 136. So far he is doing well. Put in the remarks column what you give him to eat and when, so know what you are feeding.
 
Going to try and get at least 3 hours of sleep. I left food in timer.
Just want to clarify I can not monitor him tomorrow I have monthly meetings in the early morning that run back to back I can not miss these as I run the meetings.
So on the human meter if it’s 177 which is low I give him the full 2.75 and he will be safe.
I gave him 2 units tonight and his numbers continue to drop and I am feeding him.
Have alarm set for 2.30am so going to see how he is then.
Thanks
 
Claire, I hope you are managing to get some sleep.
I am always around at your am shots and always keep an eye out for you amd look at Kaz,s SS.
It is around 7.30pm my time when you do the am dose. So you can always post and I will see it.
 
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HI Claire, I can see you have taken the preshot and it is 278.
I think you would be fine to give the full dose of 2.75 units.
What I would do, for your peace of mind, is to put some higher carb food (maybe a couple of teaspoons of the 15%) into the feeder for the +4 snack as you will be away all day. And the usual carb food for the other snacks.
How does that sound?
 

Lets see how Kaz goes with the 2 units and the preshot of 136. So far he is doing well. Put in the remarks column what you give him to eat and when, so know what you are feeding.[/QUOTE]


Considering he only got 2 units yesterday his preshot number is actually very good. Feeding him now and will give the 2.75 (I have to leave for work within 5-10 minutes of his insulin shot) in about half hour unless I hear otherwise.
I believe that his number this even on 2.75 will be low again but I will do as you say.

I see that you said new number is 177 (assuming this is human meter) and if below and tag and ask for help but if I am unable to get help or someone is asking me to decide on what I should do then what do I give him as I need help as I simply do not know what the safe amount would be.

Thanks
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
HI Claire, I can see you have taken the preshot and it is 278.
I think you would be fine to give the full dose of 2.75 units.
What I would do, for your peace of mind, is to put some higher carb food (maybe a couple of teaspoons of the 15%) into the feeder for the +4 snack as you will be away all day. And the usual carb food for the other snacks.
How does that sound?
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Been giving food at +3 and +6 per an earlier post from you do you want me to chenge the feeding times. Think you had said +3 and +6 was when the insulin was at its strongest. Feeding now
 
Sorry..stay with the times you have +3 and +6 and put the higher carb food into the +6

If you leave some of the higher carb food in the feeder for him, that will help the BGs if they drop at all. he is looking great by the way.
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Have a great day and let us know how Kaz goes. You and he are a great team!
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Kaz's numbers are dropping again. I have given some higher carb food like you suggested I did before leaving for work this morning. I am also leaving some low carb food in timer and will try to get up in the middle of the night to test him although I am finding this harder and harder to do as I am so sleep deprived.

I know you won't be around at 6.30am my time so I have to make a decision for tomorrow or the next day as its only a matter of time before he's too low to give a shot to.
I know 177 is my new human meter number for the 2.75 but is there another number for a lower shot and high carb food so he's safe while I am at work? (should I reduce to 2 units again if number is between 125-177? Then if lower than 125 do I go to 1 unit?)
 
Remember you can always tag bandits mom, tiffmaxee or Suzanne & Darcy if you get stuck in the mornings.
If you can, I would get a +11 in the pm cycle so that you have an idea of what is going to happen at +12 (AMPS) when you suddenly have to make a decision.
I think I would leave the 10% carb food out for him in all the snacks while you are at work, so that he has some carbs there if he drops lower while you are at work.
As far as dose goes. ….if you get a preshot lower than 177 at night or when you are home during the day, I think you should shoot the full dose as you will be around to monitor and we will be able to see how he goes with that dose and the lower preshot.

If you have to go to work and you get a lower than 177 preshot, you could give a lower dose, say 2 units but still leave the 10% carb food for all the snacks in the feeder.
If it is under 120, post and I would tag one of the people I mentioned above and ask for advice. They are all very experienced members. If you get the +11 BG it will give you time to do this if necessary.

I know you are anxious about the green BGs but you can see that he has been quite safe when he has been in them. You will get used to them more as he has more of them. And it’s great he is starting to come down into the normal numbers for a cat. He will feel much better.
I know you don’t feel you can shoot a full dose at a low number yet, but a lot of people, me included, shoot/shot any number over 50 with the full dose and the cycle seems to stay flat. I am not suggesting you do that yet, but it is something to keep in the back of your mind.

Have a look at Hendricks SS. He had DKA and is now almost exclusively in green BGs
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Y3bj6tt4NeAjfhJvVQb55bsyopXQHILbxlVKF/pubhtml
 
Actually I am around at your AMPS but not at your PMPS.:cool::rolleyes: Not sure where my head was earlier ........So I can help you with the AMPS.
Post as early as you can so you are not rushed. I'll watch out for you at my time 7.30 pm
 
His numbers are high this morning so am continuing with his normal morning feed he always gets the Tike here. I am not sure about the higher carb food as his numbers are high this morning.

Thanks for the above this is helpful. I physically could not get up during the night I tried and was actually quite unwell which I know is due to lack of sleep. I will try and do better this evening.
 
Good morning, Claire. That pink this morning looks like one of Kaz’s bounces (from that 70). I’m sorry you are not sleeping enough and feel unwell. I actually worry about you since you told us that you have to be on job sites. Hopefully, Kaz will drift slowly back down to a little lower number by the time you get home.
 
Morning exhausted but this is how it has to be right now. I actually worry more about my drive as I get really tired driving these days but hopefully I can do a bit catch up this weekend.

Bron - you had said to leave high carb food out for both snacks today but his numbers are high this morning so wanted to check before I did this. I know my interpretation of high carbs and this sites interpretation is slightly different.

High carb to me is 9-10% and then anything above this is really high so can you just clarify if you want me to leave 15% which is really high for both meals. I shoot in about 15 minutes this is usually when I do food prep but I'll wait to do this last.

Have to leave in about 20 minutes though as my first meeting is at 7.30am this morning.
 
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