4/28-4/30 Hershey TID? We're thinking - yes

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Doug N Libby

Very Active Member
04/28/12
AMPS (406) +12 - Big girl panties? check (or maybe they should be depends? :lol: )

Shot 1u at 2:15am - Planning to get a +4

Here's hoping for good numbers! Y'all have a great day!!

+4.25 (169)
+6 (186)

*+6 Hershey got into Oreo's food. It wasn't long as I had JUST looked away, but I turned back around to find him hunkered down over the bowl like a teenage boy afraid someone was going to get his food! Would not respond to verbal cues, had to physically move him from the bowl! :o :shock: Binky's says Friskies Mixed Grill is 8% carbs. Twice what Hershey usually gets. :YMSIGH:

AM cycle was calm, stayed in control of my faculties :smile: Hoping for a good PM cycle, but it's not starting off looking good...

PMPS (416) +12 - Shot 1u at 2:15pm
+4 (270)
+6 (195)

04/29/12
AMPS (302) +12 - Shot .9u at 2:15am
+5.25 (172)
+6 (228)

PMPS (451) +13.25 - Shot 1u
+4 (204)
+6 (186)
+10 (370)

04/30/12
AMPS (376) +11.5 - Shot 1u at 3:00am
+4 (209)
+6 (222)
+8.5 (368)

PMPS (364) +12.25 - Shot 1u at 3:15pm
+6 (197)
+8.75 (358)
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS (406) Shot 1u

Oh my RED!!! Seriously Hershey?? Can't you give us better then that for a PS?

Here's hoping for good numbers too!!
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS (406) Shot 1u +4.25(169)

+4.25 (169)

So far, so good...it would be nice to think he'd drop a little more...see you at +6...
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS (406) Shot 1u +4.25(169)

Wow thats a pretty big drop.
I hope he drops some more for the +6 then stays level before the PMPS.

No Rocket Ships, Hershey.
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS (406) Shot 1u +4.25(169)

Looks good so far

Carl
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(406) Shot 1u +4.25(169) +6(186)

+6 (186)

So much for him dropping more - but, still looking good
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(406) Shot 1u +4.25(169) +6(186)

Hey Hershey -

Can you tell Grayson your secret for finding a nice blue after seeing red??? At this point... I might be happy with pink :o ! - although yellow would be a really good option too!

Nice +4!
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(406) Shot 1u +4.25(169) +6(186)

Wow that is some drop - Hershey must have a secret parachute to be able to drop like that! What a good kitty - think he was trying to make up for that mean 406 he threw at you for AMPS.
Here's hoping you stay in the blues!
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u

Thanks, Y'all - for the eyes and encouragement!

*+6 Hershey got into Oreo's food. It wasn't long as I had JUST looked away, but I turned back around to find him hunkered down over the bowl like a teenage boy afraid someone was going to get his food! Would not respond to verbal cues, had to physically move him from the bowl! :o :shock: Binky's says Friskies Mixed Grill is 8% carbs. Twice what Hershey usually gets. :YMSIGH:

AM cycle was calm, stayed in control of my faculties :smile: Hoping for a good PM cycle, but it's not starting off looking good...

PMPS (416) +12 - Shot 1u at 2:15pm

Not sure if this is:
needing to settle into the dose increase
getting into Oreo's food
big AM drop
Hershey being Hershey...
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u +4(270)

+4 (270)

Sure hope he drops some more... :YMSIGH: ...I know, patience...give him time to settle into the dose... Patience is NOT my strong suit! :smile:
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u +4(270)

Not sure if this is:
needing to settle into the dose increase
getting into Oreo's food
big AM drop

I am voting for A and C. I don't think him getting into Oreo's food would be a primary cause, as it should have worn off prior to PMPS. It probably stopped him from going as low as he might have gone though.

And A and C are sort of the the same. The big drop could be part of the "settling" process. Even though you don't like the PS numbers, the curve is shaped right. Low in the middle, and about the same number at each end. As he settles, you would want to maintain that shape, but the "ends" would just come down together, and the "bottom" might stay that low, but the difference between the highs and lows would become smaller. In a perfect world anyway. ;-)

Carl
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u +4(270)

I vote for that 'perfect world' theory - think we can get Hershey on board?? :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u +4(270)

You could try some subliminal motivational training with him...as he's sleeping, let him listen to Louis Armstrong singing "What a Wonderful World"!

Carl
 
Re: 4/28 Hershey AMPS(416) Shot 1u +4(270) +6(195)

Sure hope he drops some more... ...I know, patience...give him time to settle into the dose... Patience is NOT my strong suit!

I think he heard you typing that.... :smile:
OK, so tonight, Hershey is on the "normal nadir timing" track....
That's a nice +6

Carl
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey AMPS (302)

04/29/12
AMPS (302) +12 - Shot .9u at 2:15am

Never thought I'd be happy to see a PINK PS, but after two reds yesterday...Well, 4-1/2 hours until I have to get up and (hopefully) not fall asleep in church, so...GOODNIGHT!!!!!
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey AMPS (302)

You are getting some really good mid cycle numbers. I am with you in seeing some lower PS numbers. How do you get there?? I wish I had the answer for you, I & the rest of FD kitties.

Don't fall asleep in church you will miss a really good sermon.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey AMPS (302)

Doug N Libby said:
04/29/12
AMPS (302) +12 - Shot .9u at 2:15am

Never thought I'd be happy to see a PINK PS, but after two reds yesterday...Well, 4-1/2 hours until I have to get up and (hopefully) not fall asleep in church, so...GOODNIGHT!!!!!


Pink??? That's SO on the verge, I believe we call that a "peach"!

Good boy Hershey! (and stay outa Oreo's food!)
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u

Well, Jenn, you'd be proud - I kept myself AND Doug awake in church. o:-)

PMPS (451) +13.25 - Shot 1u

Well, Lu, guess we can't even fudge on this color. :sad: I don't think Hershey understands how this game is played...
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u

Hi Libby,
Is there any way you can get some +9 or +10 numbers? I'm trying to figure out at what point he goes from blue to red, because it seems like the nadirs look good and the insulin just isn't lasting 12 hours. Especially when he had the nadir at +4 instead of +6....

Carl
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

Will do - started to grab one last night, but got discouraged with the (228) +6 and gave up for the night

+4 (204)
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

What is he up too?

You are getting some nice nadirs and I think that is causing him to bounce again to the higher PS's.

He's being micro dosed and getting great results but we can't seem to bring down those PS's. We have been brainstorming some about Hershey and are starting to wonder if he would benefit from TID dosing, since you are home during the day and maybe if the TID could even out his cycles and eliminate the highs and lows you might be able to wean him off. Think about it for a while and let us know how you and Doug feel about it.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

So that's a 55% drop in the first 4 hours.

Robin, if somebody goes TID, do they have to rethink the feeding timing/schedule thing? I wonder how Kim schedules the meals around Kitty's shots...

Carl
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

We'll have to ask Kim, I was going to ask her about this before suggesting this but the timing seemed right to suggest.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

Not sure I could swing TID all of the time, especially Sundays. He usually has to run ~13hrs on Sundays and that's rushing like crazy to get home. I'll mull it over and see...I had wondered about maybe every 10 hrs, but haven't actually mapped that out, either. Would love to figure out a way to help him get those PS's down, though.

Good question about the changes to feeding. I'd be interested in hearing more and seeing what we can work out...
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

How does that work? Do you take the Xunits/day and divide it by 3? Like he's pretty much getting 2u/day...divide that by 3 to TID?
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

Just think about it for a while. Marty and Calliecat tried the +10 or +11 shooting and it messed up her feeding schedule.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

When Cass was tid, I only fed at shot time, instead of every 6 hours.

And yes, you split the total daily dose in thirds. Never shoot less than 7 hours apart & be caredul to make sure you're shooting a rising number.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204) +6(186)

From Kim's post, it sounds like she feeds when she doses...wonder if she tests every 4 hours...and still wondering about how you'd figure out the dose...rolling it around...

In the meantime

+6 (186) - FOODIES
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204) +6(186)

I must've posted while you were typing; look at my post above yours. I checked @ +5 sice rhat was Cass's nadir at the time.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204) +6(186)

Thanks, Lisa - sorry I missed your post. Hershey doesn't have a set nadir time...sometimes it's +4, sometimes +6 and I've seen it later. Maybe TID would even that out, too? So, you test the 3 shot times and 3 mid-cycles? I was thinking maybe TID would let me sleep a little longer at one time, but it doesn't sound that way...so, then you'd still do a sliding scale based on his PS? It would mean I'd need someone to help me figure that out...

So, what other differences need to be considered? And, what about how long I'm gone on Sundays?? Would that completely throw everything off and be like starting over every Monday??

Am I asking too many questions?????

THANKS!!
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u +4(204)

Doug N Libby said:
How does that work? Do you take the Xunits/day and divide it by 3? Like he's pretty much getting 2u/day...divide that by 3 to TID?

That's what I've understood from Kim. I don't know if she does the mid-shots - she does have to sleep and go to work SOME time! :o Take the total dose for a 24 hour period that you're shooting BID, and divide it by 3 to get your dose. DEFINITELY shoot on a rising number.

She does feed w/ each shot. And since Kitty's been sick, she feeds her when she indicates she wants to eat! Gotta put some more meat back on her little bones! I don't think she has a set "snack" schedule - but you may want to PM her in case she misses this post.
 
Re: 4/28-4/29 Hershey PMPS (451) Shot 1u

Carl & Bob in SC said:
Hi Libby,
Is there any way you can get some +9 or +10 numbers? I'm trying to figure out at what point he goes from blue to red, because it seems like the nadirs look good and the insulin just isn't lasting 12 hours. Especially when he had the nadir at +4 instead of +6....

Carl

+10 (370) :sad:

04/30/12
AMPS (376) +11.5 - Shot 1u at 3:00am

I guess the good news is that he didn't rise much from +10 to +11.5. Thinking it might be beneficial to get a +8 - +9 to maybe see when he starts to rise...
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) Shot 1u

Yes, try to catch the rise when it happens if you can.
Carl
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) Shot 1u +4(209) +6(222)

+4 (209)
+6 (222)

If he wants to be flat, couldn't he be flat BLUE??? Or, dare I hope, flat green??? But, at least he's not chosen flat pink or red...Plan to test +8
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) Shot 1u +4(209) +6(222)

As you can probably tell, Libby, we have been wondering about TID for Hershey. But we are concerned with causing you more stress. Some possible good news - sometimes a short trial on TID sort of jump starts things.

I'll send Kim a PM and see if she will weigh in. As Cassie said, she also did TID.
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) +4(209) +6(222) +8.5(368)

Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
sometimes a short trial on TID sort of jump starts things.

Wouldn't that be wonderful?!

MISSED +8 - ugh
+8.5 (368) - But since he ate at +6, some of this could still be food. +3 is usually higher than +4, I guess for that same reason...
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) +4(209) +6(222) +8.5(368)

Hey! I am reading, but on my phone. I will respond as soon as I can get to my computer!
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) +4(209) +6(222) +8.5(368)

Okay, I will share what I can to help you while considerig TID. First, let me start with the basics.....to get your dose you do take your total amount that you are shooting in a day and divide by three. That in itself will be a little tricky, as you are using a sliding scale. For Kitty, she was getting 4.5 to 5 units bid for a total of 9 to 10 units a day (Wow, yes, I know it was a lot! She loves Insulin!) When we started tid, I shot 3 units every 8 hours, after testing and being sure the number was rising. It is advisable to start conservative with your dose, as there is a possibility of some insulin overlap. So, if I had to do it for a kitty like Hershey, that gets a much better response from small doses than Kitty did...I would start my tid dose a little less than the total units he is getting bid. With Kitty, I actually started at 3 units tid and eventually ended up at 4 units tid, before reducing after getting such a good response- that I needed to back down. Truly, even now, I shoot somewhat of a sliding scale tid. It is not written down, I just know based on her tests how much it will take for the next 8 hours! To me, TID is about momentum, and once you consistently keep insulin in the cat, the amount needed usually decreases. Initially when starting tid (for a couple of months), Kitty's curves were pretty flat-- she would not dip down much, but she was in GOOD safe numbers throughout the day. I attributed the flat cycles to a consistent constant insulin supply-- Kind of like a tank of gas that always is half full-- she never had a lot more or less insulin at any given time in her body. After a few months, as her body adjusted to the constant supply, she did start to dip lower. I never had Kitty tested for Insulin Resistance, but she very well could have been and maybe the better response started once I shot enough isulin to finally break through the antibodies. But, either way, her cycles were very flat to begin with-- her curves looked much more like a "L" curve. But, we did away with the 400 and 500 preshots!

This is a personal opinion, but I think that for "most" cats, Prozinc does not last longer than 8 to 10 hours. In fact, that is why the Prozinc curve is what we refer to as a Smile--if the insulin lasted 12 hours, there would be no smile shaped curve. Some cats obviously get longer duration than others, but for most, when the insulin is gone....it is gone and the rise can be Very Fast. Even now, on weird cycles that Kitty is too low for my comfort level to shoot at +8-- I can wait an hour and she will go up 100 to 200 points-- the duration is NOT there for her.

As far as feeding, I feed Kitty with each shot. So, she gets fed every 8 hours. Truly, if she is begging, I will give her a little food at +4. I NEVER feed after +6, because I do not want food to influence the test for the rising number. When Kitty first started TID, I always tested at +6 and +8, to ensure a rising number. But, after months of testing for that-- I no longer do that. Now, I know that the Prozinc is Not going to last her that long and as long as she is above 200, I shoot. This is a decision I am comfortable with after many months of testing and dosing tid-- to begin with, you need to test and be sure that the cat is rising or really--- I am not sure rising is the right "adjective"-- I think it is more important that you are not shooting into a dropping or lowering number. If Kitty is flat, I assume that is rising-- because I know that means she is going no lower and the insulin is wearing off. Cats that are candidates for tid, should not have late nadirs and be dropping at or after +8. So, I don't find that dropping numbers at +8 are normally an issue for TID dosing.....BUT, you need to test to ensure this!

As far as how you handle Sundays and your busy schedule. You can shoot BID on Sunday, with only changing one shot time. In fact, now with Kitty's condition, some days-- I shoot tid and some bid. I will use Kitty as an example....Her tid schedule is 6am, 2 pm and 10 pm. IF, I test at 6am and she is too low to shoot or not eating-- I wait 4 more hours, which would be a normal 12 hour cycle and shoot at 10 am (this is the only shot time that changes). When I do this, I know that her next shot will be at 10 pm--(12 hours away, normal bid schedule)---once I shoot at 10 pm, I am back on tid the next morning at 6am. So, you only have to adjust one shot time and you can shoot bid for a 24 hour period, without getting you off schedule. Regardless of which shot you change the time on, you just wait 4 hours test and shoot-- then test and shot again in 12 hours-- and your tid schedule will stay in place for the next shot. The numbers might not be as good on your bid cycle, but you just accept that-- knowing that the other 6 days of the week, the tid schedule is producing better numbers. Does this make sense?

There have been times, that I would shoot at +9 or +10--- But, that creates a totally new schedule and you have to be really flexible to make it work! But, it can work if you are willing to get up at all times of the night and adjust your schedule to Hershey's!

Hershey looks like a good candidate for tid. He is getting a good response and good early nadirs, it just appears the insulin is not lasting long enough. TID has been great for Kitty. Any days that you know you are not going to be able to be home to shoot on 8 hour cycles, you can shoot bid-- by adjusting the one shot 4 hours back.

I hope I haven't made this more complex than it is! The hardest thing for me to adjust to, was shooting insulin into numbers much lower than I was used to. I remember the first time I shot 3 units into a low 200-- with members "Yelling" at me to SHOOT! I was scared to death, I was use to shooting into 400s and 500s-- AND, if I had just waited a couple of more hours, I could have had my way! Because the insulin was gone!

Like I said, I hope I have helped and not complicated this! Let me know if I can help!

Good Luck!
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) +4(209) +6(222) +8.5(368)

No, Kim, you didn't complicate it. You actually made it less complicated than it was in my head - worked out Sundays, too - what a gal! I actually think a 8:15 - 4:15 - 12:15 schedule is pretty doable...

My main concern nailbite_smile is the dosing. I don't know where to start. I mean, lately he's been running pink/red for PS, so getting .8 - 1u. So, would .6 TID be roughly equivalent to 1.8 and .7 TID be roughly equivalent to 2.1? If so, .7 would be too much, but is .6 enough? too much? But, then there's the possible overlap...so...feel like I'm almost back to square 1.

If we're going to do this, I'd like to try sooner rather than later. Weekends are harder for me (as a general rule) and as we get closer to summer I have to deal with moving Joe home, the kids' summer schedules, etc, so that's more to figure on...

Nervously optimistic at the prospect...


PMPS (364) +12.25 - Shot 1u at 3:15pm
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey AMPS (376) +4(209) +6(222) +8.5(368)

Libby, just my opinion....

If you are concerned about the dose, then aim low at the start, just like with BID. You could start at .5, see what that gets you at +4 and +8? Do that for one day, (a day when you can get +4 and +8 numbers), and then let the numbers show you where to go from there? If you get an uncomfortable low number at +4, you could do as Kim suggested and give him a snack then.

Carl
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey PMPS(364) Shot 1u

Fascinating. Really loved reading the TID info - I sort of wonder if Robbie would benefit from that but see NO way of doing it with my work schedule and husbands- plus in the summer I'm frankly worried about sticking to a BID schedule as my work hours increase dramatically. However, I find it very interesting to contemplate and will probably be lying in bed tonight wondering about the benefits. I will be very interested to see how Hershey does on this - really hope it's the answer for him -the thought of anyone cracking thru the stupid cycles is very uplifting. Go Hershey!!!
 
Re: 4/28-4/30 Hershey PMPS(364) Shot 1u

However, I find it very interesting to contemplate and will probably be lying in bed tonight wondering about the benefits.

Right, because hey, who needs sleep? REM? Isn't that a band out of Macon, Georgia? LOL

Carl
 
Carl & Bob in SC said:
REM? Isn't that a band out of Macon, Georgia? LOL

Carl

That's the only REM I know of...

K - quick more than you ever wanted to know about our family...

Doug works - only income. Leaves a lot of stuff to me, like just assumes the bills are paid, that we have groceries, etc. I usually make the plans and sometimes run them by him. ;-) Not bad or anything, just what works for us. Anyhoo - when I started thinking of homeschooling (but was working full-time, making more money and carrying the insurance) I kept it between God and me. I felt it was the right decision to try it when Doug came to me and had been thinking of it, too! :o

Jump to present...I had not considered TID for Hershey, but have been lamenting about high PS's and insulin petering out by +10. When Robin mentioned TID to me today, it was like, "YEAH! What are the hurdles/obstacles? Where's some paper so I can map out what this would look for us." (I'm a list maker :smile: ) Doug has heard my laments, but since he was at work today, of course, we haven't discussed today's thread. Been wondering how to bring it up to him...After supper, he pulled up Hershey's SS and said it seemed to him that if we could do this thing three times a day, it would help him no go so high. :o :o :o :o Well - there you have it!!

Sounds to me like we need to try this thing - Shot time is at 3am and I doubt many of y'all will be hanging out with me. So, what do I need to do to get started??
- Divide his food differently - 3 meals instead of 4.
- Figure out a starting dose...Carl suggested .5u and see what happens. Anybody else want to weigh in?
- Test at +6 and +8 initially

Anything else??
 
Yes! I want to weigh in more before you start this! I am an hour away from being able to sit down at the computer, but I will be back!
 
Cool, Kim. I'll look forward to hearing from you. I know you have your hands full, thanks for taking the time to help us!!
 
Are you thinking about starting with tid at 3 am tonight? If so, that is going to put you on a 3am, 11am, and 7pm. Will that schedule work for you-- that is different than your schedule you mentioned before. Either way can you test again at +8 tonight?
 
Ahhh, Kim - you're RIGHT! So, how do we get on the schedule I mentioned (12:15am, 8:15am, 4:15pm)??
scratch-head02-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000415-large.gif


+8 will be about 11pm, yes, ma'am - I can get a test.
 
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