3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290,+3-320,+6-303

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MommaOfMuse

MommaOfMuse

Member Since 2010
Well at least she is starting out in the sunshine, so maybe she will go the other way today and go to blue or even green by pmps tonight.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249

MommaOfMuse said:
Well at least she is starting out in the sunshine, so maybe she will go the other way today and go to blue or even green by pmps tonight.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
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Hope so - remind her its supposed to be GOOD Friday :)......

Em
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249

As opposed to the normal "I'm a cat and will do whatever I want to Friday?" :lol:

I think all of the furkids will go for that line first, then they might remember its a day of remembrance and be good on Good Friday.

Rainy day here- Sneakers will most likely head for furniture when the thunder starts.
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255

What is going on here? :?

The pink in the evenings doesn't make a lot of sense after the easy blue and yellow surfing, most days.

Could she be getting into contraband? Some kind of stress? Getting into the candy Easter eggs?
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249

hmjohnston said:
As opposed to the normal "I'm a cat and will do whatever I want to Friday?" :lol:

I think all of the furkids will go for that line first, then they might remember its a day of remembrance and be good on Good Friday.

Rainy day here- Sneakers will most likely head for furniture when the thunder starts.
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Yeah you do have a point ;). I wasn't home all day but it looks like the furkids behaved - I didn't find toys strewn all over the house and they actually left a bit of food in the bowls....I am thinking that might mean some late night catting around when I'm trying to sleep, sigh.....must be that full moon.

Em
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255

Bet she discovered the stash of Peeps.

In her former life the live chicks and pullets were likely both entertaining and delicious?
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255

There is absolutely no contraband she could get into, and the Easter Bunny has stashed everything in the basement until Sunday morning and the kitties don't have access to down there since they can get into the walls so what exactly is going on with her makes no sense at all unless it is rebound from too much insulin rather than not enough. Since I know this pen is good.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

Well I ran a control test on the meter...its working fine....nothing here that she could be getting into that she shouldn't....no ketones got a test for those today and by the way she is acting I wouldn't expect these numbers because she is acting like she does when she is playing in the greens. I just don't get it, so I backed her off again to .5 just to see if she gives better numbers.

All 14 cats are on canned food and we feed the dog at the same time as the cats and watch him like a hawk and then pick his bowl up immediately after he is done so she can't even lick any leftover gravy off the sides...so I have no clue why her numbers look like this...she just keeps going up all day it is like I'm injecting water.

Just when I think she actually read the stickies on how to be a good sugarcat she goes and eats the pages..<sigh>

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255

MommaOfMuse said:
...so what exactly is going on with her makes no sense at all unless it is rebound from too much insulin rather than not enough.
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It doesn't make sense but then it never does when they aren't regulated. I don't think this is "rebound" from too much since you are getting spot checks. There is generally always counter-regulatory response to about any dose of human depot insulin. But if you suspect so called somogyi like effects (with human depot insulin in felines) you take the dose up not down. The solution is to bring the cat into normal healing numbers. And the way to do that is to methodically take the dose up until the numbers come down. Then once in normal numbers the dose may come down via reductions while maintaining normal numbers.

As for the opposite approach, about the only way to see ultimately effective results from taking the dose down (while in high numbers) is likely with robust pancreas. And perhaps other odd cases where the cat may have been grossly improperly dosed. In the absence of those situations, usually the most productive course of action is to bring the numbers down with insulin. And that generally means to keep increasing via protocol (while getting spot checks to see what is actually occurring) until the numbers come down.

Otherwise the cat remains perhaps indefinitely caught in a catch 22 of glucose toxicity and temporary insulin resistance only reinforced by the high numbers. It may set in when you hold doses for too long, or too low. While in such a state the cat still may see occasional periodic dives and dips, perhaps even to green. But if they are generally remaining high (and you have the spot checks to know) then it probably means the dose is too low, and you need to methodically keep going up until they break through the temporary resistance and glucose toxicity.
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

I know how ya feel Mel, Lucian, although not HI, has been slowly raising all day too. I'm thinking he needs to go back up to 2.0 in the next day or 2.
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

Dale,

If it truely is Somogyi that she is in right now, then increasing the dose is exactly the wrong way to stop it...the only way to stop rebound is to lower the dose.
I suggest you read Somogyi's rebound Raising the dose only makes Somogyi's worse until you completely override the cat's natural defenses to the overdose and you cause a crash.

I hav paraphrased the most notable parts of the link above below.

What you'll see:

It's confusing but true: Too little insulin means pre-shot blood tests are too high; too much insulin often also means pre-shots are too high. This effect is often noted by those who test their pets' blood glucose at home. It means that even when blood glucose levels are too high, simply raising insulin dosage can make things worse instead of better.

The blood sugar readings may go from a lowish number very suddenly to a high number, with a 'checkmark' shaped curve. If overdose goes on for a few days, you may see few or no low readings, and just lots of very high and unpredictable readings that don't seem to correlate with feeding. Once in a while, a very low reading or even a symptomatic hypo may ensue.

A typical rebound pattern, most often seen with long-acting insulins, is a high, flat, unresponsive blood sugar over a period of days. Sometimes, often when raising dosage, this high flat curve will be punctuated by sudden drops to very low values, (with possible hypoglycemic events) followed by a fast return to high unresponsive numbers. (It's the sudden dip that distinguishes this pattern from inadequate insulin, but it doesn't always happen.)

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

Yes I read that and it's what caused me to improperly dose Chip back on Lantus. That's when I saw the pink on the ketone strip and you came along and told me to crank the juice a full 0.5 unit. But I didn't keep going and he never broke through the temporary insulin resistance and glucose toxicity.

If you want to see a case study of what being under dose looks like, scroll back to the beginning of Chip's SS. The entire time on Lantus he was under dose. In fact I believe that improper dosing caused him more harm than benefit. I can't prove that, but he had actually lost weight when I took him back for the Levemir script. He was apparently doing better on the NPH than the improperly dosed Lantus.

That wiki has a good description of the so called somogyi like effects. But what is essentially wrong there is what to do about it. And it makes no distinction between long lasting depot insulin and long lasting In and Out insulin.

With In and Out insulin you do deal with it by reducing the dose, and you can do that because the feedback is immediate. With depot insulin you really have no direct control of the depot. So you make a change now attempting to guess what the numbers may be like in days. But the depot keeps chugging and chugging and chugging. That's why usually the most effective way to bring those numbers down is taking the dose up methodically using some protocol. Somewhere in that wiki is discussion about the breakthrough process. But I suspect that is pretty much outdated info about somogyi that predates the Tilly dosing we know today. Before that, it apparently was a crap shoot. Sometimes you got lucky but the odds weren't good.

If you look at a large number of SS you can see the way that always seems to work. Reducing the dose with human depot insulin in felines (to combat so called Somogyi like effects) is tried and tried again but it almost never leads to lower numbers in the long run, only increased glucose toxicity and resistance. About the only thing that usually works is taking the dose back up. And sometimes taking it way back up, higher than ever. After piddling around so long under dose.

You really should talk to Jill about this subject. I think she has studied more SS than about anyone I know. And she has a lot of first hand experience.
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

But if you look at Autumn's Spreadsheet, she did better on .5u than on .75 and every single time she has been raised to 1u she crashes, in fact she came close to crashing on .5 but instead of reducing I held her and that is when she started the higher and higher numbers...she is not under dosed if anything she is overdosed right now. Yes I could keep raising her until I force her into hypo but that isn't something that I want to do.

But I am watching her for ketones which thankfully she isn't prone to, and if by lowering her dose doesn't produce better numbers I can always take her back up again. But if going up only produces worse numbers there is only one way to go and that is down. And she does have a check marked curve, plus the depot is only keeps chugging along until it drains to the new lower dose, which is why it can take several days to see the effect of lowing the dose when working with a human depot insulin.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Re: 3/29 Autumn amps-249, +6-255,+9-346,pmps-290

I would talk to Jill first before doing that if she where mine.

You can sure try that but I suspect that is the case of repeating over and over what didn't ultimately work.

And if it doesn't work, it puts you back to square one or worse?

Only you hold the syringe, but my hunch is throttling the dose around causes bigger dives to lower numbers and greater risk than something akin to protocol dosing.
 
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