12/31 Gracie PMPS 321 +11 113 DOSE ???

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Marje and Gracie

Marje and Gracie

Member Since 2010
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Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=33246

Recap:
AMPS: 186 6th cycle sk1.25u
+1: 141
+2: 59 fed 14% w/gravy/drop karo
+2.5: 48 fed 14% gravy/drop karo
+3: 58 fed 6% w/14 gravy
+3.5: 65
+4: 58 fed 6%
+4.5: 43 fed 6% w/14% gravy
+5: 51 fed 6% w/14% gravy
+5.5: 60
+6: 65
+6.5: 65
+7: 76
+11: 184
PMPS: 215 7th cycle sk1.25u
+1: 246
+2: 157
+3: 93
+3.5: 77
+4: 77
+5: 80
+6: 52 fed 6% w/14% gravy
+6.5: 47 fed 6% w/14% gravy
+7: 62
+7.5: 77
+8: 105
AMPS: 199 8th cycle sk1.25u

Happy New Year's Eve!!!! We send our strongest healing vines to Butthead and strength vines to MJ! We hope the oncologist can help Butthead recover and stop the progression of his cancer. Also, welcome back Pat!!! We're thinking of all sick kitties and those of you beans who aren't well and send you healing vines also.

WCR: 4Ps in place. Little Gracie is tired today after that poke fest yesterday. We are very happy with her progress at this time. Mike was up with her until 3:30 this morning and I am so grateful he is a night person. (He gets to sleep in today :-D). He slathered a generous amount of neosporin on her ears last night. I went to bed about the time the site went down and she pulled a Mannie at +7 by coming in and curling up with me but was so sweet about Mike coming in to check her after that.

We would appreciate some advice:
1. Any thoughts on how we can keep a close eye on her but not test her every half hour when she's dropping? She will turn around on us in no time and easily within 1/2 hour even when we think we're on top of it.
2. We feel like we're giving her alot of carbs to keep her up. Is this indicative her dose is too high or just that she isn't regulated (we've had to do this to her even when her dose was much lower but wasn't her fitting dose) and I know others have to do it, too. When she's dropping, we just go from her PS, +1, +2, +3 feedings and spread the same amount of food out in tsps with 14% gravy so she doesn't get more calories from food but she is getting more from gravy and I don't want her gaining weight.
We are trying to have her earn her reductions by three times under 50 in different cycles or else she doesn't hold them. She's at 2 times right now so she may be looking at another shaved dose soon. That seems to also help...just taking off a tiny drop when we do reduce.

Any help would be appreciated. And have a wonderful day.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Happy New Year!

Very nice numbers for Gracie. :-D :mrgreen: :cool: :mrgreen: FWIW, and I am no expert, but.. if you feel that you are working too hard to keep her numbers up, then the dose should be reduced. Or so I have been told more than once. I hope one of the dose experts will be along to give you a definitive answer. Her numbers are great - but wow on all that testing, and all that work, and all that lack of sleep...

Gracie - you ready??? and Tobey??? Let's roll! Party to be had! ~~ Mannie
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

wow....on the busy little girl!

i'll be interested to see what the wise ones say...

Snow in Tucson??? what is the world coming to???

we all need to run off to Fiji!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Marjorie, you know I am no advisor, just checking in. Wow on yesterday's and last night's numbers. You and Mike are really on top of that. :smile:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Hi, Marjorie & Gracie.. I'm with you.. I hate poke fests & testing so often ;-)
I am familiar with the protocol you are following (3 times below 50 before reducing) so I do suspect you are having to work to keep her #s up, because usually it is one drop under 50 & they earn their reduction. Really it is your call, she has earned it in the normal protocol. I am sure others will chime in who are considered advisors though. Good Luck & Happy New Years Eve day!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Marjorie,

This concept confuses the heck out of me and I'm sure you'll get great advice. I know she is in "liver training school" and maybe she needs more time with being in a healthy zone with management of the curve with food and ear pricking. I know you just recently figured her out right?

What I can't understand about liver training school.... if you manage the curve with food and keep her above 50 she would never "earn a reduction". You guys are managing her so closely. So how would Gracie earn a reduction if you can't keep her preshot numbers and most of her other numbers in the healing range? Is it when you have her so well managed doing this her liver mellows out and the other numbers come down or she will be too hard to keep above 50 even with food? If you didn't manage her curve you know she'd "earn" that reduction.

So this liver training school is not something I'm passing thats for sure (I'm being held back). Maverick's liver has got it figured out.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Karrie....you make outstanding points. And your point is well taken that if we weren't managing her curve, she would have easily gotten a reduction. As you can see from her numbers yesterday, even with us managing her, she dropped below 50 during both cycles and also as you can see, we had to work to keep her above 50 so I'm thinking the dose experts will tell us to shave her dose if she drops below 50 again. She is a newly diagnosed FD and so, according to protocol, we should drop her dose when she gets below 50 once; but she wasn't holding her reductions when we did that so we had to get more aggressive about her earning her reductions. When she was on 1.25u, she went below twice but we had to shave her dose because I had one morning that I couldn't get her number up enough to shoot by +14. We are still figuring Gracie out :lol: :lol: :lol: and that may never happen....she is constantly throwing us curves. But we really hope that more time in the healing ranges WILL help her pass LTS anti jinx. You are so lucky you don't have to deal with that.

I had the question yesterday (a version of yours), and still have it: when a kitty is done with LTS and the curve starts to flatten out, and the bean is shooting a dose of 1u or 1.25u, etc, what keeps those regulated cats from hypoing? I look at their SSs and some may dip a bit into the 50s but their beans don't have to check them all the time and they just do like Maverick...great PS, great nadir #, great next PS, etc. So I don't know if it is the "unregulation" that makes us have to monitor her so much and *when* she gets regulated, the chances of hypo are less or what. ?????
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

I'm going to try to get some more eyes in here for you. I'm having a hard time being objective with Gracie, I think because her spreadsheet looks sooooo much like Lucy's did at one point that I can't separate the two cats in my mind. There are important differences between our two cats, so while I know what I would have done with Lucy, it's hard for me to see what I would do for Gracie.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Thanks, Libby. We want her in the healing range but don't know if we're overdoing the food manipulation to make her earn her reductions.... Hope you are well!!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

I'll be reading to learn more about this. I can't figure it out.

With Maverick his numbers AMPS 77 and +3 68 - were without hardly any food. If anything he ate a half ounce. But he eats a bit before his preshot in the AM. I wish I could get him to eat consistently.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

OT...and asking a favor...i thought i bookmarked the link for the catnip video...and have been searching posts...but can't find it.

would you mind...in the next cpl days...resending that?

and get Fighter Pilot Guy up...we gotta get to ella's for dinner!!! :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Gracie sure likes the green lately. I have no advice on this, but I hope you get the info you need. I was shocked to hear about your weather. We usually get cold and snow this time of year, but I didn't think Tuscon got that cold. It will be a good New Year's Eve to stay home! I hope you have a very Happy New Year!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

mybuddybinks said:
and get Fighter Pilot Guy up...we gotta get to ella's for dinner!!! :lol:
Click to expand...

Captain Donovan is always available for your FDMB flight needs

Donovanflyingtiny.jpg
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 Advice?

Morning Marjorie and Gracie - Happy New Year to you all.
You pose some interesting questions and I'll be following along to hear what responses you get. When her nadir becomes more regular, I think you will be able to do less testing. She is quite a puzzlement, isn't she? How well do you guys do with the "squirt-out-one-drop" thing?

Except for the couple of 40's and all that food, her numbers look great.

As Shadow's dose got smaller, she quit having hypo episodes, but in no way, shape, or form does she compare to Gracie. Shadow was never much of a bouncer, she Clepped out of LTS. :lol:

Do you remember those posters where you blurred your eyes to see the image? If you look at Gracie's SS like that, I really do believe her curve is slowly flattening. She is making progress, even if it doesn't feel like it at 3-4 a.m.

I'm not any help on your dosing questions, but Shadow and I got your back.

I'll PM a trip report a little later today. Geoff and I are jonesing for dim sum, I'll be in and out today.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285

Karrie: you and me both!!! :lol: :lol: Miss Gracie likes to do things her own way as evidenced by her little bounce this morning.

MJ: :lol: :lol: :lol: and he looks so debonair!!!

Ele: sssshhhhhhhh....don't tell her how much green she's had or she'll do something else. :lol: :lol:

Kim: so glad to have you back and I'm looking forward to your PM on your trip. Dim Sum? I had that in L.A. ONCE...they brought duck's feet and I couldn't stand the smell of the propane :lol: :lol: But, hey...I hope you enjoy it!! :lol: :lol: Yes....Gracie catches us off guard with those 40s esp after her "nadir". And I don't like giving her all that gravy but we have to keep her up and after seeing her number at +3, not sure she needs a reduction quite yet but we'll let the experts advise. It's tough to dose this sk1.25u but I try to count drops like everyone else! Maybe Shadow needs to give Gracie the Cliff notes to LTS so we can be done with it. Just when we think she's getting the hang, she has a day like today so we'll just take a deep breath, check her before we leave, and go to a movie :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285

CANCEL LINK REQUEST!!! found it and ordered it...

and cabanabean can rest easy...Cap'n Donovan flyin' the friendly skies today!!!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285

Happy New Year’s Eve drinking24

Wow I don’t think I’ve seen this many BG tests in one day (was that 25!!!) This must be a record.. You are testing machines…

Did you have a winter testing strips sale in Tucson!?! They cost $80 for 100 up here (25 tests is $20 in a day!! here)… ;-)

It’s strange/funny to see snow on cactus!! You have very nice land and view around your house…
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285

Actually I think these kitties like school! Tess is continually returning too. Just when you think they are flattening out ..... ohmygod_smile

I've always been confused too. Are regulation and LTS the same thing or just overlapping? I thought LTS was flattening bounces and regulation was maintaining an overall level under 200. Right or wrong?
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285

well, IMHO and FWIW: this is what I thought too:
Ann & Tess said:
I've always been confused too. Are regulation and LTS the same thing or just overlapping? I thought LTS was flattening bounces and regulation was maintaining an overall level under 200. Right or wrong?
Click to expand...
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Sylive: I order test strips in large amounts off ebay...much cheaper!!

Michelle and Ann: I am sure you are both right because remember, I'm the novice here. I thought LTS was when they are still bouncing and having good days to try and teach the liver to QUIT bouncing and flatten out; agreed on the regulation. Guess my big question is....do regulated kitties never hypo? Seems like they don't.

at any rate....looks like she is still in LTS......just not giving it up yet....
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Gracie! You going up to get Mannie? I putting out emergency call to all KTSS, we can get him down if we all pull together! -- Tess
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

We're just dropping in to say Happy New Years Eve, be safe and remember to sweep the doorstep just before midnight!!!

LTS, bounces, rebounds...yeah...we need a tutor too. :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

First of all, Marjorie you are doing such a job with Gracie...Havent ever seen so many tests!! YOU really need to let her ear rest a bit.
IMHO--Regulation to a vet is a cat being under 200!! BUT------
Regulation to us is a cat' bg being 60-120, sometimes 40-120 in some literature.
LTS is where ou go to get your kitty to stay within normal numbers & have the pancreas heal itself ultimately..That doesnt always mean a cat will be OTJ, but it is likely & possible--Some cats have a sputtering pancreas, where it jump starts & then stops for a bit--
Bringing a cat down by slow dose reductions is what I have seen be the answer to getting a cat OTJ!
This is what I wish for you & everyone else this new year--Dont Stress & enjoy this coming year with Hope & good expectations.
I have the utmost faith in you & know things will fall into place!! We Lubs you!! :mrgreen:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Roni...thanks for helping us clarify that....and it is evident that Gracie is still trying to figure out how to pass LTS and flatten out. She's trying!!

Well...here's the thing on the testing....we don't like to do it but if you look at her numbers, you'll see how she turns around on us and then sinks. Last night, she was 80 at her nadir and hadn't eaten in an hour and Mike was ready to do one more test and go to bed and she dropped to 52. He fed her and she didn't respond and dropped even more to 47. What if he hadn't checked her before he went to bed....she was still dropping even after he fed the 52...how low might she have gone? This is her pattern and we try to get her up with food and then make sure she is at a safe number. That's why I was asking the question...is there another way to manage her so we don't have to test so much given her propensity to change course frequently and quickly AND after her "nadir"....which seems to change on any given cycle. We thought, well...we can test hourly and if her number is down, feed a little HC on the half hour but then we could be feeding her (and possibly HC) when she doesn't need it. I really don't like her getting below 50 since she doesn't respond quickly and she could be below 40 before we know it. When she starts going back up, we neosporin her ears like crazy and if she has a day like today, we lay off as much as we can and neosporin her ears. Her ears are in really great shape except for the one small thick area on her right ear and many folks said their cats get that, too. It's a tough call but we want to keep her safe....she is unpredictable. Hence my other question...is it too much juice? But, if you look at her SS, she's dropped really low on smaller amounts of insulin. So we're waiting for the dose experts to help us on that.

We really appreciate the thoughts and input....Gracie is just doing it her way! :-D
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Just dropping in to see how Gracie is doing....jeez, looks like her poor little ears need that neosporin, lol. Nice numbers, well, except for these ones here, but I'm sure she'll turn herself around and get back tot hose beautiful green numbers.

Happy New Year, Marjorie and Grace!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

FWIW, Donovan developed thicker lumpy areas on the edge of his ear, but it went away (and this is when he was still on Lev and being tested frequently). I also had switched to a thinner lancet, but I can't say whether that helped or not. I have never used ointment on him; I just apply pressure after pokeys.

MJ&Donovan
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Marjorie and Gracie said:
It's a tough call but we want to keep her safe....she is unpredictable. Hence my other question...is it too much juice? But, if you look at her SS, she's dropped really low on smaller amounts of insulin. So we're waiting for the dose experts to help us on that.
Click to expand...

Take a slow walk through Attie's SS...

Now...my advantage in dealing with Attie is I am aware at one point on a different insulin he was at 8 units BID. Whoa...right?

Attie has those unpredictable drops too ....every few days he likes to see if my heart is working...

I think and believe what we are seeing is not so much LTS or too much insulin...as resistance. An antibodish response that needs to be broken. IMHO.

As we're both on a learning curve...what I have recently learned with Attie is timed feeding is critical. At first I thought we were circumventing the natural process, but soon realized we were actually supplementing it. So we could suppress it, because it was out of sync.

So I think you need to figure out a feeding routine, but that routine needs to be flexible too. In that you change a dose...the feeding after 3 days might need to be adjusted.

Attie is still climbing in dose and showing resistance, but ....look at all that blue even the last month compared to our Sept. (even being bold enough to shoot into the drop). In the last month we've dropped 100pts. on our average.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

DUCK'S FEET??? NOOOOOOO!!! I gots ta go check on ma fren' David Quackerfield!!!

binks
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

gracie's a tough one. i've never seen a kitty who requires a buildup of hc in order to bump the numbers up. some of the comments made in this condo today reflect opinions based on the norm. gracie is not following the norm. unlike other kitties, karo has shown to be the only effective alternative to bumping up gracie's numbers quickly. i'd hate to see others use what they're seeing here on their own cats. ECID folks! :-D

i'd like to respond to some of the questions and comments brought up today...

We would appreciate some advice:
1. Any thoughts on how we can keep a close eye on her but not test her every half hour when she's dropping? She will turn around on us in no time and easily within 1/2 hour even when we think we're on top of it.
Click to expand...
unfortunately, i don't think there's any way around testing gracie often because "She will turn around on us in no time and easily within 1/2 hour even when we think we're on top of it."

2. We feel like we're giving her alot of carbs to keep her up. Is this indicative her dose is too high or just that she isn't regulated (we've had to do this to her even when her dose was much lower but wasn't her fitting dose) and I know others have to do it, too. When she's dropping, we just go from her PS, +1, +2, +3 feedings and spread the same amount of food out in tsps with 14% gravy so she doesn't get more calories from food but she is getting more from gravy and I don't want her gaining weight.

We are trying to have her earn her reductions by three times under 50 in different cycles or else she doesn't hold them. She's at 2 times right now so she may be looking at another shaved dose soon. That seems to also help...just taking off a tiny drop when we do reduce.
Click to expand...
some could argue gracie's dose is too high if they are not following the protocol suggestion (for kitties who do not hold reductions well) made here: http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm

"Alternatively, if the nadir glucose concentration is 40 - <50 mg/dl at least three times on separate days, try lowering the dose."

have you been weighing gracie? is she gaining weight? using a baby scale to weigh her every week is much more accurate than trying to weigh her on a home scale.

What I can't understand about liver training school.... if you manage the curve with food and keep her above 50 she would never "earn a reduction". You guys are managing her so closely. So how would Gracie earn a reduction if you can't keep her preshot numbers and most of her other numbers in the healing range? Is it when you have her so well managed doing this her liver mellows out and the other numbers come down or she will be too hard to keep above 50 even with food? If you didn't manage her curve you know she'd "earn" that reduction.
Click to expand...

a reduction would be attempted once the caregiver feels the cat is stabilized on the dose.

what some seem to be missing here is that the curve is being managed with food to allow the dose to be increased in order to bring down the high numbers on either end of the cycle in the case of a bouncy cat without allowing the cat to drop too low. the technique is also helpful when you have a cat who experiences huge food spikes... even from low carb food. we call this technique "food manipulation" or manipulating the curve with food.

I had the question yesterday (a version of yours), and still have it: when a kitty is done with LTS and the curve starts to flatten out, and the bean is shooting a dose of 1u or 1.25u, etc, what keeps those regulated cats from hypoing? I look at their SSs and some may dip a bit into the 50s but their beans don't have to check them all the time and they just do like Maverick...great PS, great nadir #, great next PS, etc. So I don't know if it is the "unregulation" that makes us have to monitor her so much and *when* she gets regulated, the chances of hypo are less or what. ?????
Click to expand...
having methodically worked kitty to a correct dose COMBINED with "knowing thy cat" (knowing how kitty reacts to food, knowing when and how much to feed, knowing your kitty's response to the dose) goes a long way to keep them from hypo'ing. that doesn't mean that you can give up testing. kitties will continue to surprise us with low numbers from time to time. it's important to catch these lows and adjust the dose accordingly.

I've always been confused too. Are regulation and LTS the same thing or just overlapping? I thought LTS was flattening bounces and regulation was maintaining an overall level under 200. Right or wrong?
Click to expand...
according to the parameters set up by the FDMB: http://felinediabetes.com/fdmb-faq.htm#regulation

6. REGULATION

Q6.1. What is regulation?

A6.1. There are different definitions of regulation. As hometesting becomes more common, we've been getting a better understanding of what cats and their humans might be capable of. Janet & Fitzgerald propose the following "regulation continuum":

* Not treated [blood glucose typically above 300 mg/dl (16.7 mmol/L), poor clinical signs]
* Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
* Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
* Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
* Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
* Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]

There may also be an extra category of "mostly above 300 (16.7) but with good clinical signs" which occurs with some cats who are getting insulin. We don't know why it happens, but such a cat probably should not be considered to be regulated. On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible for a cat who is not getting insulin to have blood glucose as low as 40 mg/dl (2.2 mmol/L) on a home glucometer. If you have a non-diabetic cat, try testing her with the same meter to get a safe comparison figure.

LTS = Liver Training School:
LTS is a term dubbed in LL awhile back. contrary to popular belief, we're not really "training" the liver. LTS refers to a process. it's the process of the liver learning not to overreact every time it sees a number lower than what it's used to. what we want to do is continue showing these lower numbers (above 50) to the liver until the liver finally sits back and says, "hey, these numbers aren't so bad."

Regulation to us is a cat' bg being 60-120, sometimes 40-120 in some literature.
LTS is where ou go to get your kitty to stay within normal numbers & have the pancreas heal itself ultimately..That doesnt always mean a cat will be OTJ, but it is likely & possible--Some cats have a sputtering pancreas, where it jump starts & then stops for a bit--
Click to expand...
no. please see above. these concepts are often confused.
normal numbers are considered to be between that 60 to 120 mark, but again, ECID. i have two kitties here who normally test in the 40s and 50s.

As we're both on a learning curve...what I have recently learned with Attie is timed feeding is critical. At first I thought we were circumventing the natural process, but soon realized we were actually supplementing it. So we could suppress it, because it was out of sync.

So I think you need to figure out a feeding routine, but that routine needs to be flexible too. In that you change a dose...the feeding after 3 days might need to be adjusted.
Click to expand...
exactly! these "customized" feeding plans are individual to each cat. not all cats need them, but they're especially helpful for kitties who are bouncy and/or experience huge food spikes. KNOW THY CAT. knowing your cat is just as much part of the equation as administering insulin... and perhaps the most over looked.

hope this helps.


marjorie...
libby and i have been discussing gracie off board today. we would like to share this conversation, but quite frankly, i'm running out of time at the moment (new year's plans). stay tuned tomorrow, k?
Happy New Year!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Thanks, Jill, for the detailed response to everyone's comments. Mike and I are anxious to know what you and Libby think. Yes, Gracie is tough.

Just to answer your question about Gracie's weight: yes, we have a baby scale and yes I weigh her. We've been doing this for all our cats for probably ten years. She has gained weight and I do not want her to gain more....in fact, I need to get that weight off her. That is why I am so tightly trying to control her calories. But lately what has made that more difficult is she gets her portions at PS, +1, +2, +3 and THEN decides to go down and we have to use gravy and sometimes a little more food and/or karo to bring her up....adding calories. Yes...know thy cat but she doesn't stay consistent. Sometimes she drops early (e.g. 1st cycle 12/30) , sometimes not until +4 (e.g. 2nd cycle 12/27) and then there was a night like last night where Mike thought he had her up and she was almost at her nadir...and then she dropped way back down at +6.

Beth: we have had her on a feeding schedule (since late Sept) and have tried different feeding schedules with her to see if she responds differently. She has made alot of progress in the last month. I think this is a valuable suggestion but we've been doing it a long time. The problem lies in having to use food to control her if she decides to dive esp if she does it later in her cycle. And the problem above...inconsistency on when she starts dropping. Currently and for the longest, she's been on measured feedings at PS, +1, +2, +3. In order to control early drops, I've tried feeding her (at Jill's suggestion) even earlier...PS, +.5, +1, +1.5..no change. If she hasn't had extra food to control her curve, then we usually give her 1 tsp of very low carb (0-1%) about +5 as a snack or she just gets way too hungry. I guess the only thing we haven't tried is feeding her at PS, +1, +2, +4 but seems we'd miss most of her drops if we did that.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

Marjorie and Gracie said:
Beth: we have had her on a feeding schedule (since late Sept) and have tried different feeding schedules with her to see if she responds differently. She has made alot of progress in the last month. I think this is a valuable suggestion but we've been doing it a long time. The problem lies in having to use food to control her if she decides to dive esp if she does it later in her cycle. And the problem above...inconsistency on when she starts dropping. Currently and for the longest, she's been on measured feedings at PS, +1, +2, +3. In order to control early drops, I've tried feeding her (at Jill's suggestion) even earlier...PS, +.5, +1, +1.5..no change. If she hasn't had extra food to control her curve, then we usually give her 1 tsp of very low carb (0-1%) about +5 as a snack or she just gets way too hungry. I guess the only thing we haven't tried is feeding her at PS, +1, +2, +4 but seems we'd miss most of her drops if we did that.
Click to expand...


I had to find courage...with Atttie to not over-react to his sudden drops... I finally figured/decided if he drops more than 75 pts. per hr...we feed...no matter what the number is...be it 50 or 250. Hard fast drops ...equals bounce. NOT how low he drops.

Look at his SS. He tends to late nadir now... now we're adding a +9 feeding of 0.25 oz.

Think of the food supplementation as therapy....rather than "drop control" and you might chose to do things differently. ie/ i shoot into the drop now....how frightening is that @!


Attie also figured into qty...at times. It is the QTY we change...not so much adding food. So, if I think he drops too fast at plus one...I bump him 0.25oz, but that comes off his +5 or 6 reading...and yes there are days where the 5 or 6 reading ....he gets nothing....because we already used it. Nothing is added...as it helps keep the "bounce" to either shortened duration or lower numbers.

And yes, like today...there are days where I shrug my shoulders and ....go to work. What I sort of feel at this point is if I'm a shave over ...it ain't going to kill him.

For all the drama we see on LL....will they run low...yes....but for those like you or me...it ain't going to kill'em. We'll catch it very, very soon/
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie AMPS 199 +3 285 +5 308

I love this place, and these people, who care so much about someone else's kitty.
Happy New Year, Marjorie and Mike....and of course, the beautiful Gracie.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

Beth...we appreciate your extra time and comments. We did look at Attie's SS. I do think that we are dealing with entirely different scenarios with these two kitties. I don't see Gracie as being insulin resistant but she is bouncy just like many other kitties in LL; sometimes she clears the bounce quickly, sometimes she doesn't.

Yes, we know that hard, fast drops are important to try and counter with food. If Gracie has a lower PS than her last number of the night before, she often drops fast. I try to then feed her a little bit higher % carb food and a little more at shot time. We dropped the +9 feeding at Jill's suggestion and it has helped ALOT because now Gracie often gets that second dip before her PS.

Think of the food supplementation as therapy....rather than "drop control" and you might chose to do things differently. ie/ i shoot into the drop now....how frightening is that @!
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I don't know how you are differentiating between therapy and drop control or what you mean by shooting into the drop.....do you mean you shoot dropping PSs? I appreciate your time in clarifying that for me....I'm thick headed tonight :-D

If I've had to give Gracie more than her allotted calories to control her curve, then she typically does not get the +5 feeding; but if she gets her allotted calories and no more, then I give her the +5 snack....I won't let her be that hungry and have to wait until the next PS.

We're always appreciative of input; like Jill said, Gracie is a tough one. :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

another really good condo. ALot to be learned here. I am ever so glad that you pose questions - how else can we all learn.

Sorry for the pink, but she'll be done with that soon enough.... I hope she didn't decide to go after Mannie - I heard rumblings about a rescue mission... :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

Hello Marjorie,
I dont really know much about anything. But I was looking at your ss, and noticed those bigger drops especially in the beginning of cycle (I was thinking +3-+4). Looking at the food you are giving its usually 0%-4% carbs. It doesnt seem as if hc is used until she drops into the 60's or below. Am I interpreting it correctly???

Anyway, Latte experienced huge drops in the a.m. There were a lot of variables going on with her and different goals than the average person here. What I did until we neared the end was make her food at shot time higher in carbs by using karo (couldnt have regular mc food). It was scary doing that when she was in the 300's, and I dont know if was right. But I do think it helped, or I wouldnt have continued. Im wondering if it might be worth entertaining the idea of using mc around +1 or +2, BEFORE she typically drops, especially when she has a higher ps. Of course there will be times this can be (and was for us) counterproductive.

Blue is right about the big drops. They really can cause big bounces. Its not just the number where they end up. And a drop from 150 to 60 in an hour or two can be just as bounce worthy as a drop from 300 to 150, or 420 to 200.

Sorry if Im jumping in to something and adding things that are completely irrelevant or worthless. Its just been stuck in my head all day after looking at grace's ss. Im guessing Jill/Libby have a great plan in place to help guide you.

You are very dedicated and do an amazing job with Grace, along with a wonderful group of people who care. I know you will figure something out.

Happy New Year to you and your family!
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

At another quick glance....
Im wondering if it might be worth getting some pm +11's. Is it possible she is dropping at the end of the cycle, and continuing to drop BEFORE the a.m. insulin kicks in? This would lead to bigger drops. If she is dropping between pm +11 and ps, that might help guide you as to how you want to feed early in the cycle. ????
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

Carolyn

I am happy to get any thoughts. Thanks for looking at Gracie's SS and yes, you are correct...we WERE feeding lower carb foods in the range of 0-3% but if you look at her more recent feedings, we have not been feeding anything less than 4% and even feed 6% quite frequently. I've even given her some 8% right off the bat. Here's the challenge for us....finding the food that she will eat with those % carbs. I tried Grammie's Pot Pie (8%) and she wouldn't even sniff it. Because of her bladder issues, I have to limit her fish and by-products. The one thing I haven't tried which we may need to is feeding her the Wellness pouches with gravy (9%) right off the bat. That is something we've been thinking about trying with her. Also, you will see we have given her karo a little earlier in her cycle on a few occasions and that might be something that we'll have to do. This has been one of our main concerns...controlling her drops. So your idea is a great one and we are looking for more foods that she can and will eat at higher carb level to help that stop those steep drops.

And yes, I do think she drops from +11 to her a.m. PS and when I see a.m. PS being lower than her last number the night before, I try to give her at least 6%...this has been a very recent discovery and I do a +1 and sometimes even a 1.5 check to see where the drop is occurring. I have often thought I need to get in more +11s at the end of the pm cycle but sometimes I am so exhausted because I was up late with her that I just need that extra sleep. THANK YOU for the suggestions because they are good ones.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

Marjorie and Gracie said:
...we are looking for more foods that she can and will eat at higher carb level to help that stop those steep drops.
Click to expand...

Ok Whew!!!! Didnt want to be talking out my butt :? BUT, it was kinda eating at me today after looking at her ss.

Latte was not only limited in what she *could* eat, but what she *would* eat in kind and amount. Thats where karo came in handy for us.

I never could get +11's either because I only got 4-5hrs of sleep/night as it was. After time I realized due to the steroid wearing off in early a.m., and for whatever other reason (losing bounce, her body, etc) she was dropping even before she got her a.m. shot. I also got a lot of +1 and +2's because of that and tried to feed appropriately (carb content). I understand how hard it is to get the pm +11.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321

Carolyn: no, I don't think you were talking out your butt :lol: :lol: We have been trying to find foods that she can and will eat at higher % carbs. She just dropped from 321 to 167 in two hours and I just gave her 14% food w/gravy. Shame on me for not doing a +1.5 tonight....I didn't think she would break her bounce this soon and I fell asleep in the chair. And Libby told me to set alarms which I usually do; however, I even sorta wondered if I gave her a fur shot tonight. Guess NOT!!

Karrie: always something brewing here cause I am still striving to figure out the big Gracie equation!! :lol: :lol:

Hope everyone is having a nice NY Eve....we're chillaxin as we are having a dinner party tomorrow night instead of tonight. It's nice for a change :lol:
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321 +2 167 +3 73

Mike and I gave her a generous helping of 14% plus gravy at +2 when we caught her dropping and also gave her more 14% gravy at +2.5; at +3, she's still steamrolling down again so we gave her 2 more tsps 14% and 1/2 ml of karo. Regardless of whether we can keep her up tonight, we are going to reduce her dose in the morning to a f1u. We think she is just getting too much insulin now and she's already gone below 50 twice at this dose; I know there is no one around to consult with but we can always take her back up if we need to after the requisite cycles.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321 +2 167 +3 73

Don't you know it, MJ. Thanks for your comment earlier; we're using the BD ultrafine 30g and holding pressure on her ears after poking. Plus the neosporin.
Got her up to 78 at 3.5 but looks like another long night.
 
Re: 12/31 Gracie PMPS 321 +2 167 +3 73

Oh Boy and Happy new Year to You! Gracie is seeing the old year out with a bang!
ist2_4785884-champagne1-300x300.jpg
 
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