10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76, +4-66
- Thread starter iBkoryD
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Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
We generally do not encourage someone who's cat's been on Lantus only a few days to shoot that low. With Lantus, we look at 3 options on a low pre-shot number:
I'd also encourage you to get your spreadsheet up and running as soon as possible. It will help you keep track of things and it will allow us to give you better informed help.
We generally do not encourage someone who's cat's been on Lantus only a few days to shoot that low. With Lantus, we look at 3 options on a low pre-shot number:
- shoot a reduced dose
- stall
- skip
I'd also encourage you to get your spreadsheet up and running as soon as possible. It will help you keep track of things and it will allow us to give you better informed help.
iBkoryD
Member Since 2011
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Thank you for the information. I have already read that sticky thread a couple times. I was more curious what experienced Lantus users do at 110 preshot?
I will get my spreadsheet up and running asap. For the moment I am just writing it down. Here is what I have so far:
10-29 6:30pm before food and shot 158. 7:45pm after food and shot 121.
10-30 7am before food and shot 128. 8am after shot and food 106.
10-30 6pm before food and shot 138. 7pm after food and shot 109.
10-31 7am before food and shot 110. NO shot given. 10-31 8am after food, NO shot 124. Skipping morning shot.
Sienne and Gabby said:
Thank you for the information. I have already read that sticky thread a couple times. I was more curious what experienced Lantus users do at 110 preshot?
I will get my spreadsheet up and running asap. For the moment I am just writing it down. Here is what I have so far:
10-29 6:30pm before food and shot 158. 7:45pm after food and shot 121.
10-30 7am before food and shot 128. 8am after shot and food 106.
10-30 6pm before food and shot 138. 7pm after food and shot 109.
10-31 7am before food and shot 110. NO shot given. 10-31 8am after food, NO shot 124. Skipping morning shot.
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Kory:
You have 2 days listed at 10/30 with different info.
Lantus will do best if you can shoot 12 hours apart -- or as close as possible to a 12/12 schedule. Because Lantus is a depot type of medication, an early shot acts like a dose increase and a late shot acts like a dose reduction. Often, if you shoot early one time and late the next, you will get some pretty wonky numbers since there are some days where you are working off of too much overlap between doses (i.e., shooting 2 hours early) and this could cause a considerable drop in numbers. Lantus likes consistency both with shot times and with dose.
In addition, Lantus dosing is based on the lowest number in the cycle. Pre-shot tests will tell you whether it's safe to shoot -- like today. However, you need to get at least one test per cycle in order to see where things are heading. Spot checks are very important with Lantus.
As far as input regarding this morning, as you gather test data, you will be able to shoot a 110 and even lower numbers. Right now, it's a matter of your not having the data to do safely.
Kory:
You have 2 days listed at 10/30 with different info.
Lantus will do best if you can shoot 12 hours apart -- or as close as possible to a 12/12 schedule. Because Lantus is a depot type of medication, an early shot acts like a dose increase and a late shot acts like a dose reduction. Often, if you shoot early one time and late the next, you will get some pretty wonky numbers since there are some days where you are working off of too much overlap between doses (i.e., shooting 2 hours early) and this could cause a considerable drop in numbers. Lantus likes consistency both with shot times and with dose.
In addition, Lantus dosing is based on the lowest number in the cycle. Pre-shot tests will tell you whether it's safe to shoot -- like today. However, you need to get at least one test per cycle in order to see where things are heading. Spot checks are very important with Lantus.
As far as input regarding this morning, as you gather test data, you will be able to shoot a 110 and even lower numbers. Right now, it's a matter of your not having the data to do safely.
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Skipping the AM shot is fine. I would get a couple of spot checks just so you can see when numbers head up.
We use a particular way of noting time. Everyone here is in a different time zone -- we have an international membership. We work on a 12-hour "clock" with your pre-shot test being the point at which the count starts. If you get a test 3 hours after your shot time, that's your +3; a test 8 hours after shot time is +8. That gives us a means of translating where the numbers are in relation to your shot.
I hope that makes sense.
Skipping the AM shot is fine. I would get a couple of spot checks just so you can see when numbers head up.
We use a particular way of noting time. Everyone here is in a different time zone -- we have an international membership. We work on a 12-hour "clock" with your pre-shot test being the point at which the count starts. If you get a test 3 hours after your shot time, that's your +3; a test 8 hours after shot time is +8. That gives us a means of translating where the numbers are in relation to your shot.
So, if I'm understanding this, if you shot at 8:00 AM, that would have been your AMPS. the 138 would have been your +11 (from the night before). The 6 PM test would have been your +10, if you shot at 7:00 PM, you shot at +11 with a test value of 106 and this became your PMPS.
I hope that makes sense.
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Skipping the AM shot is fine. I would get a spot check before you head out the door just so you can see if numbers have headed up.
We use a particular way of noting time. Everyone here is in a different time zone -- we have an international membership. We work on a 12-hour "clock" with your pre-shot test being the point at which the count starts. If you get a test 3 hours after your shot time, that's your +3; a test 8 hours after shot time is +8. That gives us a means of translating where the numbers are in relation to your shot.
I hope that makes sense.
Skipping the AM shot is fine. I would get a spot check before you head out the door just so you can see if numbers have headed up.
We use a particular way of noting time. Everyone here is in a different time zone -- we have an international membership. We work on a 12-hour "clock" with your pre-shot test being the point at which the count starts. If you get a test 3 hours after your shot time, that's your +3; a test 8 hours after shot time is +8. That gives us a means of translating where the numbers are in relation to your shot.
So, if I'm understanding this, if you shot at 8:00 AM, that would have been your AMPS. the 138 would have been your +11 (from the night before). The 6 PM test would have been your +10, if you shot at 7:00 PM, you shot at +11 with a test value of 106 and this became your PMPS.
I hope that makes sense.
iBkoryD
Member Since 2011
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Sorry to be confusing I am still learning the jargan on this site.
10-29 PMPS 158. +1 121 1 unit am and pm
10-30 AMPS 128. +1 106 1 unit am and pm
10-30 PMPS 138. +1 109 1 unit am and pm
10-31 AMPS 110 +1 124 (cant monitor kitty due to work so I am skipping this shot.) T=
Is this more correct?
Thanks!
Sienne and Gabby said:
Sorry to be confusing I am still learning the jargan on this site.
10-29 PMPS 158. +1 121 1 unit am and pm
10-30 AMPS 128. +1 106 1 unit am and pm
10-30 PMPS 138. +1 109 1 unit am and pm
10-31 AMPS 110 +1 124 (cant monitor kitty due to work so I am skipping this shot.) T=
Is this more correct?
Thanks!
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
WELCOME TO LANTUS LAND!!
celi & binks
WELCOME TO LANTUS LAND!!
celi & binks
julie & punkin (ga)
Member Since 2011
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
welcome from me and punkin too!
a lot of people who are gone to work during the day get evening tests. you really want some tests to show how low your kitter is going, which will be somewhere mid-cycle. some kitty's get lowest as early as +3 and some fairly late. it's important to know how low a dose is taking the cat, especially in your case because you're not having any visible high numbers to begin with.
great question earlier! keep asking and we'll do our best to help.
welcome from me and punkin too!
a lot of people who are gone to work during the day get evening tests. you really want some tests to show how low your kitter is going, which will be somewhere mid-cycle. some kitty's get lowest as early as +3 and some fairly late. it's important to know how low a dose is taking the cat, especially in your case because you're not having any visible high numbers to begin with.
great question earlier! keep asking and we'll do our best to help.
LynnLee + Mousie
Member Since 2009
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
just want to bump you up so make sure people see that you shot 1 unit on that number. most likely fine because the shed will be empty but just in case. can you get some tests in tonight?
just want to bump you up so make sure people see that you shot 1 unit on that number. most likely fine because the shed will be empty but just in case. can you get some tests in tonight?
LynnLee + Mousie
Member Since 2009
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
not necessarily. with the shed empty the one shot could do nothing because lantus builds up and becomes effective. i just want to make sure you get eyes if you do need them
not necessarily. with the shed empty the one shot could do nothing because lantus builds up and becomes effective. i just want to make sure you get eyes if you do need them
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
It wasn't a bad idea. Just get a +1 and +2 test.
Whenever you shoot lower than you're used to shooting, you want to get early tests. With Lantus, your +1 usually is higher than your pre-shot number since it reflects a food spike. Your +2 should be about the same as your pre-shot number. If either test is more than 10% (that's a very rough approximation), you want to be attentive since it may be an active cycle.
With Lantus, when you're new, we don't suggest shooting if you get a pre-shot test that's lower than 150. Please take a look at the post on shooting & handling low numbers. This is a good set of guidelines especially if you post and there's no one immediately available to lend a hand.
Also, the sooner you can get a spreadsheet together, the better.
It wasn't a bad idea. Just get a +1 and +2 test.
Whenever you shoot lower than you're used to shooting, you want to get early tests. With Lantus, your +1 usually is higher than your pre-shot number since it reflects a food spike. Your +2 should be about the same as your pre-shot number. If either test is more than 10% (that's a very rough approximation), you want to be attentive since it may be an active cycle.
With Lantus, when you're new, we don't suggest shooting if you get a pre-shot test that's lower than 150. Please take a look at the post on shooting & handling low numbers. This is a good set of guidelines especially if you post and there's no one immediately available to lend a hand.
Also, the sooner you can get a spreadsheet together, the better.
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
Give your cat a teaspoon of LC food and test in 30 min.
Also, please change your subject line. Go to your first post in this thread. Click on the "edit" button above the text box. Change the subject line to read
Give your cat a teaspoon of LC food and test in 30 min.
Also, please change your subject line. Go to your first post in this thread. Click on the "edit" button above the text box. Change the subject line to read
10/31 Your cat's name PMPS-151, +1-71
I don't know if the +time is correct. You will need to update the subject line with the time and the test number so the people here who can help can see what's going on.
LynnLee + Mousie
Member Since 2009
Re: Newer Lantus user with a question
the guys and gals here will help you steer the numbers so they don't get dangerously low. you're gonna have to stay up for a bit though and keep testing and other stuff they tell you to do k.
the guys and gals here will help you steer the numbers so they don't get dangerously low. you're gonna have to stay up for a bit though and keep testing and other stuff they tell you to do k.
julie & punkin (ga)
Member Since 2011
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
there are folks on here all evening who can help you. several of us are on the west coast. you will need to stay up and keep testing smokey, then update your subject line of the first post, like you just did.
do you have any high carb canned cat food, karo syrup, pancake syrup or honey?
you're not in a crisis, it's as simple as testing, reporting and following our advice in giving higher carbs to pull and keep smokey up if he goes lower. don't worry, everyone here has done this with our cats.
good job getting that first test after his shot!
there are folks on here all evening who can help you. several of us are on the west coast. you will need to stay up and keep testing smokey, then update your subject line of the first post, like you just did.
do you have any high carb canned cat food, karo syrup, pancake syrup or honey?
you're not in a crisis, it's as simple as testing, reporting and following our advice in giving higher carbs to pull and keep smokey up if he goes lower. don't worry, everyone here has done this with our cats.
good job getting that first test after his shot!
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
you're okay...
just gonna have to monitor and follow the great advisors on steering Smokey's numbers with food.
We won't leave you!
celi & binks
you're okay...
just gonna have to monitor and follow the great advisors on steering Smokey's numbers with food.
We won't leave you!
celi & binks
julie & punkin (ga)
Member Since 2011
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
what time would it be for you to get a test 30 minutes after your last test? ie, for me it's 7:47pm right now. if you could say what the : time for your next test then we can make certain and check back with you.
what time would it be for you to get a test 30 minutes after your last test? ie, for me it's 7:47pm right now. if you could say what the : time for your next test then we can make certain and check back with you.
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
is your name Kory?
can you add the words "dose question" to your subject line to catch the eyes of the experts?
celi
is your name Kory?
can you add the words "dose question" to your subject line to catch the eyes of the experts?
celi
Sandy and Black Kitty
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
Hello there!
You have received excellent guidance tonight!
I'll just add - easy does it on the amount of food, you don't want kitty to get full. Small amounts, like Sienne said just 1 teaspoon
Hello there!
You have received excellent guidance tonight!
I'll just add - easy does it on the amount of food, you don't want kitty to get full. Small amounts, like Sienne said just 1 teaspoon
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71
Lantus dosing is not based on the pre-shot number -- it's based on the nadir or the lowest point in the cycle. A newly diagnosed cat gets a dose reduction if numbers drop below 50. That hasn't happened. In addition, in most cases, doses are reduced by 0.25u.
However, if there's a way you can find a lower carb food that won't cause crystals, I suspect you will not be needing to give Smokey insulin for long. You may want to see about a consultation with Lisa Pierson, DVM around this issue.
Lantus dosing is not based on the pre-shot number -- it's based on the nadir or the lowest point in the cycle. A newly diagnosed cat gets a dose reduction if numbers drop below 50. That hasn't happened. In addition, in most cases, doses are reduced by 0.25u.
However, if there's a way you can find a lower carb food that won't cause crystals, I suspect you will not be needing to give Smokey insulin for long. You may want to see about a consultation with Lisa Pierson, DVM around this issue.
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
nice!
nice!
iBkoryD
Member Since 2011
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
My vet doses by weight so they obviously are not one to take advise from regarding diabetes in cats. I am lost and confused. I have been keeping numbers but not started a spread sheet yet and I have no clue what dose to give Smokey. I know every cat is different but what do you guys suggest? Yes I have read the stickys
My vet doses by weight so they obviously are not one to take advise from regarding diabetes in cats. I am lost and confused. I have been keeping numbers but not started a spread sheet yet and I have no clue what dose to give Smokey. I know every cat is different but what do you guys suggest? Yes I have read the stickys
Sandy and Black Kitty
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
Holding steady -that's nice. Please get a +3 and post.
Regarding dose - for me it's hard to say at the moment. Not enough info.
This cycle may shed some light though.
edited to add - Do you feed the 22% carb food exclusively?
Holding steady -that's nice. Please get a +3 and post.
Regarding dose - for me it's hard to say at the moment. Not enough info.
This cycle may shed some light though.
edited to add - Do you feed the 22% carb food exclusively?
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
Just so this is all in one place so we can see how Smokey's numbers are playing out:
10-29
PMPS 158. +1 121 1 unit am and pm
10-30
Just so this is all in one place so we can see how Smokey's numbers are playing out:
10-29
PMPS 158. +1 121 1 unit am and pm
10-30
- AMPS 128 1 unit am and pm
- +1 106
- PMPS 138.
- +1 109
- AMBG 110 (no shot)
- +1 124
- PMPS 151
- +2 71
- 2.5 73
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
My guess is that your vet may be more familiar with some of the other types of insulin. Beyond the initial dose, Lantus dosing is not done by weight -- it's based on the nadir.
Right now, it looks like the high carb food is keeping Smokey's numbers from dropping too low. This is giving you some protection. However, it makes me wonder whether the high carb food has played a role in Smokey's diabetes. If there are no alternative with respect to dealing with the crystals, that's OK. There are cats here with medical conditions that require their being on a drug that causes elevated BG levels. We work the insulin around the needed medication. If C/D is the only alternative, insulin dose will be adjusted to balance it out.
Are you adding water to Smokey's food? The more water you can get into your cat, the better the crystal situation will be.
Kory & Smokey said:My vet doses by weight so they obviously are not one to take advise from regarding diabetes in cats. I am lost and confused. I have been keeping numbers but not started a spread sheet yet and I have no clue what dose to give Smokey. I know every cat is different but what do you guys suggest? Yes I have read the stickys
My guess is that your vet may be more familiar with some of the other types of insulin. Beyond the initial dose, Lantus dosing is not done by weight -- it's based on the nadir.
Right now, it looks like the high carb food is keeping Smokey's numbers from dropping too low. This is giving you some protection. However, it makes me wonder whether the high carb food has played a role in Smokey's diabetes. If there are no alternative with respect to dealing with the crystals, that's OK. There are cats here with medical conditions that require their being on a drug that causes elevated BG levels. We work the insulin around the needed medication. If C/D is the only alternative, insulin dose will be adjusted to balance it out.
Are you adding water to Smokey's food? The more water you can get into your cat, the better the crystal situation will be.
iBkoryD
Member Since 2011
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71 dose question
Yes I do add a bit of water to his food.
Sienne and Gabby said:Kory & Smokey said:My vet doses by weight so they obviously are not one to take advise from regarding diabetes in cats. I am lost and confused. I have been keeping numbers but not started a spread sheet yet and I have no clue what dose to give Smokey. I know every cat is different but what do you guys suggest? Yes I have read the stickys
My guess is that your vet may be more familiar with some of the other types of insulin. Beyond the initial dose, Lantus dosing is not done by weight -- it's based on the nadir.
Right now, it looks like the high carb food is keeping Smokey's numbers from dropping too low. This is giving you some protection. However, it makes me wonder whether the high carb food has played a role in Smokey's diabetes. If there are no alternative with respect to dealing with the crystals, that's OK. There are cats here with medical conditions that require their being on a drug that causes elevated BG levels. We work the insulin around the needed medication. If C/D is the only alternative, insulin dose will be adjusted to balance it out.
Are you adding water to Smokey's food? The more water you can get into your cat, the better the crystal situation will be.
Yes I do add a bit of water to his food.
Sandy and Black Kitty
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76 (dose quest
Holding steady.
I'd check in another 30 mins.
Here is the link for spreadsheet instructions:
Spreadsheet instructions
Holding steady.
I'd check in another 30 mins.
Here is the link for spreadsheet instructions:
Spreadsheet instructions
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76 (dose quest
http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-crystals-raw-diets-and-water
http://www.lbah.com/feline/flutd.htm
http://www.vetinfo.com/feline-bladder-crystals.html
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth
Above are several websites that discuss urinary crystals and diet. It sounds like getting as much water as possible into Smokey's diet is key. In other words, add more than a little water to canned food. If you're not already using one, I'd also suggest a water fountain type of water bowl. It will encourage drinking.
None of these sites are pushing prescription diets. They all encourage a canned food diet that is grain free. This is exactly the kind of diet that we suggest. One site noted that avoiding foods that list by-products as the first or second ingredient should also be avoided and fish flavors are also discouraged as fish may contribute to crystal formation.
Just to underscore some of the problems with C/D (aside from it's carb count), here are the first several of the ingredients: Pork By-Products, Water, Pork Liver, Chicken, Rice, Corn Starch, Oat Fiber, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Fish Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor... Unfortunately, the quality of Hill's food is sorely lacking. If the websites are correct, the primary ingredient, pork by-products along with fish and gluten are not really helping to promote urinary health.
At some point, I would post both here and in Health and ask about diets for cats that are prone to crystals. I'm sure there are others who have dealt with this issue and who can share their experience.
http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-crystals-raw-diets-and-water
http://www.lbah.com/feline/flutd.htm
http://www.vetinfo.com/feline-bladder-crystals.html
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth
Above are several websites that discuss urinary crystals and diet. It sounds like getting as much water as possible into Smokey's diet is key. In other words, add more than a little water to canned food. If you're not already using one, I'd also suggest a water fountain type of water bowl. It will encourage drinking.
None of these sites are pushing prescription diets. They all encourage a canned food diet that is grain free. This is exactly the kind of diet that we suggest. One site noted that avoiding foods that list by-products as the first or second ingredient should also be avoided and fish flavors are also discouraged as fish may contribute to crystal formation.
Just to underscore some of the problems with C/D (aside from it's carb count), here are the first several of the ingredients: Pork By-Products, Water, Pork Liver, Chicken, Rice, Corn Starch, Oat Fiber, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Fish Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Liver Flavor... Unfortunately, the quality of Hill's food is sorely lacking. If the websites are correct, the primary ingredient, pork by-products along with fish and gluten are not really helping to promote urinary health.
At some point, I would post both here and in Health and ask about diets for cats that are prone to crystals. I'm sure there are others who have dealt with this issue and who can share their experience.
Sandy and Black Kitty
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76 (dose quest
That's a perfectly fine number. Holding steady..
I agree with Sienne - it does look like the high carb food is keeping Smokeys numbers from dropping too low.
Check again in an hour. If he gets to 50 then feed 1 tsp food and recheck in 30 mins. The goal is to keep him above 50. It's still early in the cycle
Is he a grazer? does he normally eat overnight?
What time do you shoot in the morning?
That's a perfectly fine number. Holding steady..
I agree with Sienne - it does look like the high carb food is keeping Smokeys numbers from dropping too low.
Check again in an hour. If he gets to 50 then feed 1 tsp food and recheck in 30 mins. The goal is to keep him above 50. It's still early in the cycle
Is he a grazer? does he normally eat overnight?
What time do you shoot in the morning?
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76 (dose quest
This is a great surf! I'd turn that frown upside down. (Sorry -- I couldn't resist!) We look to have our cats surf in just these kinds of numbers. It helps their pancreas to heal.
I would leave some food out and I think you are OK to go to bed. If you are worried, you can get a "sleep test" -- set an alarm for a couple of hours and get a test.
Please, please, please -- put together a spreadsheet. It will help us to help you with dosing decisions.
This is a great surf! I'd turn that frown upside down. (Sorry -- I couldn't resist!) We look to have our cats surf in just these kinds of numbers. It helps their pancreas to heal.
I would leave some food out and I think you are OK to go to bed. If you are worried, you can get a "sleep test" -- set an alarm for a couple of hours and get a test.
Please, please, please -- put together a spreadsheet. It will help us to help you with dosing decisions.
Sandy and Black Kitty
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/31 Smokey PMPS-151, +2-71, +2.5-73, +3-76 (dose quest
That is a great number.
Check again in 30 mins. At that point, depending on the number, you may want to feed him a bit and grab some sleep, however as Sienne suggested set your alarm for a few hours if you feel you need another test.
I'm going to step away for a bit but will check back in 30 mins.
You are doing great!
That is a great number.
Check again in 30 mins. At that point, depending on the number, you may want to feed him a bit and grab some sleep, however as Sienne suggested set your alarm for a few hours if you feel you need another test.
I'm going to step away for a bit but will check back in 30 mins.
You are doing great!
mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
wow...what a lovely string of numbers...
and you are handling it beautifully!
and you are handling it beautifully!
I can see it. You doing ok there? Are you sleep testing or still up?
Sienne and Sandy are further east than Julie and I. I'm up and can help you, too.
Sienne and Sandy are further east than Julie and I. I'm up and can help you, too.
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