1/17 Tom amps 376 +8.5 160 pmps 398

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:o Sheila I can't believe you said .5!!!! I was thinking dose increase. I literally gasped when I read that!
Big curve yes...but big numbers too. I want to throw my control totally away and just listen to you as you have proven right so far but can you explain again why he needs even less insulin?
 
Sheila, with all due respect, I disagree that Tom needs less insulin. Although it's hard to say what dose he needs at this point, he is nowhere near low numbers that would indicate a need for a dose decrease. Dose is adjusted by nadir, with a decrease earned by numbers falling below 40 or three times below 50 for a cat diagnosed over a year ago, as Tom is. The lowest Tom has seen so far is 160.

Dosecrease is a slang term we use here in LL as well as other parts of the forum, and while you may not like it, everyone here is familiar with it and there's no confusion.
 
Because a year ago he was on a third of a unit of PZI getting great nadirs in the 60-80 range, but when he spiked one 300s you raised the dose instead of decreasing it - or waiting to see what would happen. His numbers were better for a while, maybe a week, and again he hit the 300s and you raised him. Then raised again in 10 days and so on. With every dose increase on PZI his numbers got worse until he was hitting 500s and 600+ on over 2u.

Because the very first shot of lev (1u) dropped him over 300 points. @-)

Because he went from 423 to 136 to 600+ to 155 to 555... and so on in his first few days on 1u of lev (which included two reduced shots).

Because he is still going from high 300s to mid 100s and back to high 300s on .75u of lev.

Because he was not started on .5u to begin with and it is easier to slowly raise the dose (if needed) that to back down to it.

These are all things I have posted to you before and you know I advocated .5u from early on. I didn't think that would shock you any more.
 
Continually increasing the dose of Levemir for a cat who responded as dramatically as Tom did to the very first dose just to get him to drop to 40 before you decrease is asking for trouble.

Look at the whole cycle on Levemir please, not just the nadir numbers. 500s and 600s are not normal numbers on Levemir - something is wrong, most likely the dose is too high and the dramatic changes in BG that resulted caused a rebound.

Lori is frustrated enough with trying to manage this unique and magnificent insulin. She's actually getting some progress on a lower dose already, let's not impede that with arguing. Please look at the overwhelming evidence Sheila outlined that Tom has been getting too much insulin for a while now. And Lori, that isn't your fault. You've got a new insulin, it's a new day, you're learning and that's what's important!
 
There's no argument, I simply disagree with Sheila. We use a protocol here in LL, I'm pointing out the protocol. If Tom was dropping low, I would agree that he needs a reduction. He isn't dropping low, there's no need for a reduction at this point.

Lori can certainly choose to reduce the dose if she wants to....I just disagree that it's necessary or appropriate at this time. She holds the syringe, it's her choice.

I did not suggest that she continually increase the dose...in fact, I suggested that she reduce the dose from 1.0u to 0.75u, and I suggested that she hold the dose, not increase back to 1.0u. I see 300s for PS #s on 0.75u, not 500s & 600s. Since she is just starting to see a response to the 0.75u dose, how about if she sees how it works for more than one cycle before suggesting a dose adjustment in any direction?

You see rebound, I see response to the insulin. His numbers were already above where the PS #s are now before the insulin started having an effect. So because the PS #s are not in the ideal range after 3 days on the dose, the dose is too high...even though they are coming down? As you have already said, this insulin takes time to work. But you are not willing to allow this dose time to work before rejecting it?

I don't see any overwhelming evidence, what I see is a reference to a different insulin, which doesn't apply, and a statement that the curve shouldn't be a curve. If there is no curve, there is no response. He saw no curve for the time that his shed was filling on 0.75u...was that better, because his curve was flatter? Yes, you will see a curve, until his numbers come down. The only way you won't see a curve is if his numbers never come down.
 
I agree with Laurie. For a cat new to one of the Ls, I would strongly support following the Tilly Protocol. That's what Laurie is suggesting and what Lori has been attempting to do. After giving the protocol a fair trial, by which I mean more than days, if it's not working then look to adapt it to the unique response of the cat. By that time, there should be adequate data to know how the cat is responding. Right now, given all of her tinkering, Lori has very limited data on which to base any decisions. It's a rare cat that starts with a flat cycle on Lantus or Lev.
 
Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Because a year ago he was on a third of a unit of PZI getting great nadirs in the 60-80 range, but when he spiked one 300s you raised the dose instead of decreasing it - or waiting to see what would happen. His numbers were better for a while, maybe a week, and again he hit the 300s and you raised him. Then raised again in 10 days and so on. With every dose increase on PZI his numbers got worse until he was hitting 500s and 600+ on over 2u.

sheila tom was suffering from an ever increasing untreated infection which i believe was responsible for raising his #'s

Because the very first shot of lev (1u) dropped him over 300 points. @-)

again i showed you he does that not because of the insulin but my boy does that routinely with no insulin on board....this perhaps was the most hot headed i got when folks thought the insulin did this to him

Because he went from 423 to 136 to 600+ to 155 to 555... and so on in his first few days on 1u of lev (which included two reduced shots).

he did not really go from 423...that was a food drop. i fed one hour before shooting so the 'true' # was 600+

Because he is still going from high 300s to mid 100s and back to high 300s on .75u of lev.

granted.

Because he was not started on .5u to begin with and it is easier to slowly raise the dose (if needed) that to back down to it.

granted
These are all things I have posted to you before and you know I advocated .5u from early on. I didn't think that would shock you any more.

sheila you KNOW i appreciate your words...my post was somewhat tongue in cheek altho' that did not come across. i on the other hand thought you were definetly aware of and following my words but the above statements makes me think you forgot? or disregarded them? please don't abandon us as i want very much to hear your thoughts on tom's dosing but also please remain aware of the above ok.
 
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