06/17 Abbott AMPS 305 +2 414 +5 373 --?

AbbottTheCat

AbbottTheCat

Member Since 2022
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-pmps-288-3-142-big-drop.264708/#post-2964304
previous post very early this morning -- first ever cycle.

Hello, let me just preface this by saying I still don't have a great handle on what I am trying to accomplish during the first week. I have read most of the stickies and but still having a hard time interpreting these results. Im only on my second cycle but it seems I've landed somewhere between SLGS and TR.

I shot .75u AMPS compared to 1.0u from first cycle.
Originally I was shooting for .5u but first shot was a half-mark reading error which I have since figured out (no need to link sticky I've read it).
The AMPS shot I just could not get the syringe to .5, I'm using the BD syringes and they are awfully sticky with the plunger action (seen the videos but twisting does not work with these). need diff syringes.

First ever cycle (PMPS yesterday) seems to have gone well, couple of blues and a +5 of 90mg so maybe that was the nadir or close to it. Looking like Lantus is a hit right? until...This mornings cycle is completely different. Numbers have gone up since AMPS. Maybe it's a nasty bounce?

I could sure use some direction and interpretation of results. And where to go from here, any input welcome, thanks!
 
AbbottTheCat said:
Im only on my second cycle but it seems I've landed somewhere between SLGS and TR.
Click to expand...
SLGS: You hold a dose for 7 days (unless a reduction is earned). You decrease the dose when the BG falls below 90. The aim of this protocol is to keep the cat in the 90-150 range. This is more suited for caregivers who can't test as much as TR requires. You do a weekly curve with SLGS.

TR is a more aggressive protocol with increases as often as every 3-5 days. Reductions are earned when the BG falls below 50. The aim is to keep the cat in the range of 50-100 (which is the normal BG range for cats). To follow TR, you would need to get at least one more test per cycle in addition to the pre-shot one i.e. 2 tests per cycle or 4 tests per day. You would also need to be feeding only LC canned food and no dry food.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
The AMPS shot I just could not get the syringe to .5, I'm using the BD syringes and they are awfully sticky with the plunger action (seen the videos but twisting does not work with these). need diff syringes.
Click to expand...
Are you using the syringes with half unit markings
You can try these syringes , I have read a lot of members like them
https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/1316/surecomfort-u100-syringes-half-unit-31g-3-10cc-5-16in-100ct
Your vet will have to fax over a script for them ,call ADW Diabetes and they will contact your vet ask for refills too
 
AbbottTheCat said:
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-pmps-288-3-142-big-drop.264708/#post-2964304
previous post very early this morning -- first ever cycle.

Hello, let me just preface this by saying I still don't have a great handle on what I am trying to accomplish during the first week. I have read most of the stickies and but still having a hard time interpreting these results. Im only on my second cycle but it seems I've landed somewhere between SLGS and TR.

I shot .75u AMPS compared to 1.0u from first cycle.
Originally I was shooting for .5u but first shot was a half-mark reading error which I have since figured out (no need to link sticky I've read it).
The AMPS shot I just could not get the syringe to .5, I'm using the BD syringes and they are awfully sticky with the plunger action (seen the videos but twisting does not work with these). need diff syringes.

First ever cycle (PMPS yesterday) seems to have gone well, couple of blues and a +5 of 90mg so maybe that was the nadir or close to it. Looking like Lantus is a hit right? until...This mornings cycle is completely different. Numbers have gone up since AMPS. Maybe it's a nasty bounce?

I could sure use some direction and interpretation of results. And where to go from here, any input welcome, thanks!
Click to expand...
I'll tag a few experienced members for you about the dose
It looks like a bounce
@tiffmaxee

@Wendy&Neko

@Suzanne & Darcy

@Bandit's Mom
 
AbbottTheCat said:
Yes, the syringes I'm using have half unit
Click to expand...
Here's a coupon
DIA10
adw-coupon-dia10.jpg

10% off your next order!
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
To do a half unit if you do not have the half unit markings, you have to just eyeball it between the zero (first line -- and make sure the black plunger is really on that zero line by the way) and the 1 unit. It's not optimal eyeballing it. At this point with Abbott and the 40, I would err on the side of caution. Please be patient. He didn't become diabetic overnight and won't become regulated overnight. In the meantime, we must keep him safe.
Click to expand...
I think you are thinking of someone else there is no 40 BG on his spreadsheet :bighug::cat:
He is already using the BD syringes half unit but doesn't like them
He wants someone to read his post above for advice about dosing
@Suzanne & Darcy
 
AbbottTheCat said:
I could sure use some direction and interpretation of results. And where to go from here, any input welcome, thanks!
Click to expand...
So yes. Looking at Abbott's spreadsheet from last night and today. It does look like a bounce. I do not know how long that will take to clear. At times, during a bounce, it will look like the insulin isn't doing much at all. We do not know if Abbott will be quick to clear the bounce or slow. It can take up to six cycles -- not that it will ... it just may... some cats clear them much more quickly. One thing to remember is that you don't want to increase insulin dose during a bounce because when the bounce starts to clear, you will already have downward BG momentum and also the extra insulin that may push the numbers lower. You don't want that double whammy. Everybody hates bouncing, but it's a way of life for some cats at least until they get used to being in lower BG numbers.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
yes, and what could be possibly going on after that nice active cycle and now this bounce, I guess? I know the bounce happens to a lot of cats but just need help interpreting everything and some direction.
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You're doing fine. The bounce is not your fault. Just try to see if you can work out how to draw only .5 units. It's really a safety measure to begin with .5 units. We've seen some cats here drop very low when started on the incorrect amount of insulin. It takes time to see how a dose will work on a cat. In addition to their bodies just adjusting to having insulin, Lantus is a depot insulin and it takes time to build up the depot as well. All of the procedures in the dosing methods are built in for the safety of the cat. Remember that insulin is a hormone and not a drug, so the cat's body will react to it differently than a drug.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
yes, and what could be possibly going on after that nice active cycle and now this bounce, I guess? I know the bounce happens to a lot of cats but just need help interpreting everything and some direction.
Click to expand...
Did you see my post above -- post #13 about the bouncing. Have you read much in the sticky notes about bounces? Or about the insulin depot?
 
Yes, I have read some about the bounces and I know it will take a while to load up the depot.

Last cycle (prev post) I fed the curve during his lows with help from Bhooma, teaspoon after each test of usual LC wet.

""why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.""

Should this have helped prevent a big bounce? Does that mean I should not feed his next active cycle?
 
I'm sorry your syringes have been so sticky and tricky! :( You're not the only one, I assure you, who has had difficulty with this in the beginning. I think I said this before, but you are one of the best prepared people that has come her as a new member. You are doing well! I do hope that Abbott will give you some better numbers soon, but there's nothing to do except "stay the course" (which in this case means .5 units held for at least a week, unless he drops below 90 which would mean a reduction according to SLGS rules.) Then reevaluate the dose.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
Yes, I have read some about the bounces and I know it will take a while to load up the depot.

Last cycle (prev post) I fed the curve during his lows with help from Bhooma, teaspoon after each test of usual LC wet.

""why would you want to manipulate the curve with food?
--- bouncers: kitties who drop low and then bounce to the moon benefit from food manipulation. using food to manipulate the curve will tend to flatten out the curve. flattening out the curve helps to prevent huge bounces.""

Should this have helped prevent a big bounce? Does that mean I should not feed his next active cycle?
Click to expand...
What you did last night was very good. It was to prevent him from dropping too low since he really did have a significant drop between PMPS and +3. If you had known that this would be his reaction you may have been able to head off the steep drop with food given at say +1 and a little more at +2, etc. How much to feed and what percentage of carbs is very individual for every cat. It would be very helpful if you would write down in the remarks column of your spreadsheet, each time you give a spoonful of food to Abbott, what percentage of carbs you are using (sometimes people prefer to just put it right into the cell of their spreadsheet as well...) Then you will be able to see how Abbott responds to different levels of carbohydrates, i.e., how much of a "bump" you get in his numbers with varying levels of carbs. This will be very useful information to you in the future. Make any sense?
 
So feeding the curve can do different things. It can be used to slow down the BG dropping and thereby prevent steep drops (hopefully preventing a bounce) and it can also be used (low carb food) to help keep a cat "surfing in green numbers." Obviously if they are nearing the reduction point (which for SLGS is 90) you need to use higher carbs. Low carb is used to keep them surfing in green. It doesn't always work to prevent a bounce. Sometimes they don't slow down as much as you'd like and you don't prevent a bounce. Maybe the carb percentage was just not enough (it's a lot of trial and error with each cat being different in their response to carbs.) Sometimes the cats just seemed determined to drop. Perhaps they need a reduction. So many things.

Remember the steep drops can trigger a bounce, yes, but so can the cat just getting into numbers that its body is just not used to. Some cats will bounce from blues, or yellows, or just about any color on the spreadsheet if their body has gotten "comfortable" in higher numbers and perceives the lower numbers as a threat/dangerous situation. Does this make any sense?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
What you did last night was very good. It was to prevent him from dropping too low since he really did have a significant drop between PMPS and +3. If you had known that this would be his reaction you may have been able to head off the steep drop with food given at say +1 and a little more at +2, etc. How much to feed and what percentage of carbs is very individual for every cat. It would be very helpful if you would write down in the remarks column of your spreadsheet, each time you give a spoonful of food to Abbott, what percentage of carbs you are using (sometimes people prefer to just put it right into the cell of their spreadsheet as well...) Then you will be able to see how Abbott responds to different levels of carbohydrates, i.e., how much of a "bump" you get in his numbers with varying levels of carbs. This will be very useful information to you in the future. Make any sense?
Click to expand...

Yes, that makes sense. He gets EZcomplete its basically zero carbs and I'm calling it LC wet in my sig but it's really 0.4% and that's from the protein. Maybe if I give some syrup during my next active cycle I can take advantage of it and try and prevent the bounce or make it less drastic, is that the idea?

And yes, stay the course, noted. Sorry slow to respond, my brain is ab fried atm...
 
AbbottTheCat said:
Yes, that makes sense. He gets EZcomplete its basically zero carbs and I'm calling it LC wet in my sig but it's really 0.4% and that's from the protein. Maybe if I give some syrup during my next active cycle I can take advantage of it and try and prevent the bounce or make it less drastic, is that the idea?

And yes, stay the course, noted. Sorry slow to respond, my brain is ab fried atm...
Click to expand...
...meant to mention that the LC wet I fed during the active cycle was basically no carb (0.4) and maybe thats why big bounce?
 
May I ask what you mix (the meat) with your EZ Complete? I bought a bag of the stuff for my cats but just haven't "bitten the bullet" yet on feeding them raw (or semi cooked or whatever I decide to do.) Was the transition easy or has Abbott been on it his whole life? I have a lot of cats to feed, and I think it may be cheaper for me to make my own food. Right now, the prices are killing me. They keep going up, but meat prices do too.
 
Oh, before I forget. There are members here who also feed a homemade diet and they use honey/karo syrup for when they need to bump up the carbs in the food when managing the curve. Some of the cats have IBD, for example, or certain food allergies, and they just can't feed them canned food. This is a bit of an inexact science (adding karo/honey) since we would not know exactly how much a drop of karo/honey has in terms of carbs (it's all carbs, yes, but how much in a drop? or two drops? I wonder if anyone has ever figured this out?) Anyway, since all cats are different, then perhaps it will be trial and error to see if you need to add one drop of the sweet stuff or two drops, etc. -- also the BG number would play into how much you needed to bump up the numbers, obviously.) How's that for simple, right? :eek: Karo/honey brings the BG numbers up very quickly, but tends to wear off quickly also (that's why we keep testing every 20 minutes when kitty drops really low.) The carbs in cat food will last longer/take longer to wear off.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
May I ask what you mix (the meat) with your EZ Complete? I bought a bag of the stuff for my cats but just haven't "bitten the bullet" yet on feeding them raw (or semi cooked or whatever I decide to do.) Was the transition easy or has Abbott been on it his whole life? I have a lot of cats to feed, and I think it may be cheaper for me to make my own food. Right now, the prices are killing me. They keep going up, but meat prices do too.
Click to expand...
He was a kibble junkie until 7 or 8. Then I switched. Transition was easy, they have awesome detailed guides on the site to help you with that. I semi-cook ground turkey 85% and pork loin. Big food processor--I make about 20 lbs at a time, freeze in 2-cup stackable containers, and add powder at feeding. 20 lbs is a bout one months food for two cats, Abbot and a growing maine coon, Stella
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Oh, before I forget. There are members here who also feed a homemade diet and they use honey/karo syrup for when they need to bump up the carbs in the food when managing the curve. Some of the cats have IBD, for example, or certain food allergies, and they just can't feed them canned food. This is a bit of an inexact science (adding karo/honey) since we would not know exactly how much a drop of karo/honey has in terms of carbs (it's all carbs, yes, but how much in a drop? or two drops? I wonder if anyone has ever figured this out?) Anyway, since all cats are different, then perhaps it will be trial and error to see if you need to add one drop of the sweet stuff or two drops, etc. -- also the BG number would play into how much you needed to bump up the numbers, obviously.) How's that for simple, right? :eek: Karo/honey brings the BG numbers up very quickly, but tends to wear off quickly also (that's why we keep testing every 20 minutes when kitty drops really low.) The carbs in cat food will last longer/take longer to wear off.
Click to expand...
really helpful, thanks.
 
I see you started at 0.75 units today. Out of curiosity, how much does Abbott weigh? If you were to follow the TR protocol for dosing, the starting formula is weight based.

I fed my girl EZ Complete. I did not use the FF gravy foods for high carb as she had a bad reaction to wheat. There are some foods that are higher in carbs but lower in phosphorus (for kidney kitties), but the carbs come from potatoes. The Weruva Cats in the Kitchen pouches have some lower but still HC options and the Weruva Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20% carbs.
 
Also, cats can take 20-30 minutes to process carbs from the plate to the blood stream. It's another one of those ECID (every cat is different) things that you have to find out about Abbott. Testing every 20 minutes may be too frequent.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I see you started at 0.75 units today. Out of curiosity, how much does Abbott weigh? If you were to follow the TR protocol for dosing, the starting formula is weight based.

I fed my girl EZ Complete. I did not use the FF gravy foods for high carb as she had a bad reaction to wheat. There are some foods that are higher in carbs but lower in phosphorus (for kidney kitties), but the carbs come from potatoes. The Weruva Cats in the Kitchen pouches have some lower but still HC options and the Weruva Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20% carbs.
Click to expand...
Hey , nice to meet you! I think I'm gonna stick with the SLGS, he weighs 11.3 as of yesterday.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I see you started at 0.75 units today. Out of curiosity, how much does Abbott weigh? If you were to follow the TR protocol for dosing, the starting formula is weight based.

I fed my girl EZ Complete. I did not use the FF gravy foods for high carb as she had a bad reaction to wheat. There are some foods that are higher in carbs but lower in phosphorus (for kidney kitties), but the carbs come from potatoes. The Weruva Cats in the Kitchen pouches have some lower but still HC options and the Weruva Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20% carbs.
Click to expand...
I don't think he would do badly on carb food but I'd rather not even throw that into the mix. I am leaning towards honey or syrup, anyone have a formula for how much to give? We were just talking about that (:
 
OK, that means dropping the dose again tonight.

I found that feeding canned food was more predictable in terms of how much of a numbers bump I'd get. Again one of those ECID things, some cats are more carb sensitive than others. I found over 20% carbs food was too much carbs. But other cats need the higher carbs. We had one cat here who got a blood sugar bump from freeze dried chicken, so really sensitive. Whenever you feed anything other than the EXComplete, I'd suggest noting at what time, how much, and what you fed, so you can try to figure out how it's impacting his blood sugar.

As for honey/syrup, start with a small drop and track it to see how he dose. You could even use a syringe without needles if you want to try to be precise. Other higher carb options are the Honest Kitchen freeze dried raw which has potato, or we've even had members make their own gravy with potato or rice flour. I've also seen a kitty or two allergic to corn, meaning karo not a good option for them.
AbbottTheCat said:
Man, when they say FD is challenging to treat they ain't lying!
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You'll be getting a graduate degree when this is over. ;) Steep learning curve the first bit, but we love to help as we've all been through it.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
OK, that means dropping the dose again tonight.

I found that feeding canned food was more predictable in terms of how much of a numbers bump I'd get. Again one of those ECID things, some cats are more carb sensitive than others. I found over 20% carbs food was too much carbs. But other cats need the higher carbs. We had one cat here who got a blood sugar bump from freeze dried chicken, so really sensitive. Whenever you feed anything other than the EXComplete, I'd suggest noting at what time, how much, and what you fed, so you can try to figure out how it's impacting his blood sugar.

As for honey/syrup, start with a small drop and track it to see how he dose. You could even use a syringe without needles if you want to try to be precise. Other higher carb options are the Honest Kitchen freeze dried raw which has potato, or we've even had members make their own gravy with potato or rice flour. I've also seen a kitty or two allergic to corn, meaning karo not a good option for them.

You'll be getting a graduate degree when this is over. ;) Steep learning curve the first bit, but we love to help as we've all been through it.
Click to expand...
Wow, freeze dried chicken? I give him a couple freeze dried turkey bites during testing. Thanks for the tip on syrup, that makes sense I will try it.
 
Problem with honey and even karo is that is doesn't suck up into a syringe really well because it's so thick! I used to do about a 50/50 mix of water and karo to make it easy to syringe into my kitty when he dropped really low. I'm not suggesting that... you wouldn't need it if you are simply trying to "create" a higher carb food for Abbott. But I was just thinking about how challenging it could be to suck up some honey. I do think it might be possible to suck some up in an oral med plastic dosing syringe -- if you want to measure how much you are adding... like .1 mL, etc., which would be marked on the syringe. I've never tried this, so it's just a thought.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
OK, that means dropping the dose again tonight.
Whenever you feed anything other than the EXComplete, I'd suggest noting at what time, how much, and what you fed, so you can try to figure out how it's impacting his blood sugar.
Click to expand...

I will start adding this info to spreadsheet, thanks. Trying to formulate a good plan for tonight. Any suggestions anyone? Maybe expect another active cycle? I'm planning on giving .5 and sticking with that, and maybe testing more tonight.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Problem with honey and even karo is that is doesn't suck up into a syringe really well because it's so thick! I used to do about a 50/50 mix of water and karo to make it easy to syringe into my kitty when he dropped really low. I'm not suggesting that... you wouldn't need it if you are simply trying to "create" a higher carb food for Abbott. But I was just thinking about how challenging it could be to suck up some honey. I do think it might be possible to suck some up in an oral med plastic dosing syringe -- if you want to measure how much you are adding... like .1 mL, etc., which would be marked on the syringe. I've never tried this, so it's just a thought.
Click to expand...
I could put kitty litter in his food and he would eat it, literally anything that goes in there gets hoovered up. good for supplements.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
I could put kitty litter in his food and he would eat it, literally anything that goes in there gets hoovered up. good for supplements.
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Lo I'll make you laugh I'm Italian and when someone eats a lot we call them a gavone Slang
gavone
Italian word meaning someone who
1) Eats too much and is a pig
2) Or takes more than he can eat
Frankie is such a gavone, look how many canolis he took.
 
AbbottTheCat said:
Maybe expect another active cycle?
Click to expand...
Well, that depends on if Abbott is fast at clearing bounces. It's always a good policy to try to get a +2 test in to see if it is a lot lower than the AMPS or PMPS number. If it is, that's a good indication that it will be an active cycle. With some cats (the early steep droppers,) it is advisable to even get a +1. For most cats, a +2 is a good indicator. You will figure it out with Abbott. For a lot of cats on Lantus, the insulin will "onset" at about +2.

Have you read about trying to avoid feeding after the nadir yet (after you figure out what Abbott's nadir is... if it is consistent, that is) in order to not shorten the duration of insulin? So for a lot of cats that would mean not feeding much or only giving very low carb snacks after about +6. And of course, you already know about not feeding for two hours prior to pre-shot testing time, in order to get a test number that is not influenced/inflated by food.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Have you read about trying to avoid feeding after the nadir yet (after you figure out what Abbott's nadir is... if it is consistent, that is) in order to not shorten the duration of insulin?.
Click to expand...

No I have not, this is the kinda stuff I am needing right now. It was a mad dash to get all the supplies together AND learn how to use them since DX last week. I am playing catchup with everything else as I go along. (:

@Suzanne & Darcy keep them coming!! learned a lot from this thread. You guys are amazing, serious...
 
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