01/04: Esse AMPS=205 +8=480. Eyes, please?

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Michele and Esse

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PMPS+11.25 = 173 = Happy blue morning... :RAHCAT 173!!

Yesterday's condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1005

Blue, blue, how I like to see blue...

She's hungry. She's lurking. She's looking around for something to nosh. Since breakfast is at 6:45 am, she can wait. She may pop into yellow due to waiting...but that's all right...she's back in the blue.

Now, I think this is because I roasted chicken. I kid, I kid...what I think really happened was that I stopped giving her the topical meds. I will be calling my vet today, and getting something else...I do think the steroids shot her into the stratosphere, and I am positive we can find a different med or combo that doesn't include steroids, and still work.

Bless her heart...she's blue!

Best-
Michele
 
Re: 01/041: Esse PMPS +11=173

Pretty start to the day Esse!!!!!
Very happy to see that pretty number!!!

Good luck with the vet and finding something for her ears....nice way to begin the day after what you two have
been through!! Yay!
 
Re: 01/041: Esse PMPS +11=173

Me too...Barbara, me too! I am set for a few hours' ride time today, so I hope she doesn't plummet; but I could sure be happy with blues and blues and high greens. And yes, I know...shoot low to stay low. LOL. And as we've seen, her liver is totally on board with the whole survival thing...ROFL.

Pat, I am sure my vet will give me something without steroids. I know that the interior of her ears are fairly inflamed, but...well...we need to not use steroids. I bet a nickel that there are NSAIDs for cats...and she does pill well, so...if I need to go that way, fine. No issue for me. For Esse, it's an issue, but she handles it all right. I just couldn't bring myself to send her numbers skyrocketing again.

Best-
Michele
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

Like I thought, she went yellow (barely) by AMPS time. However, it's still only 205...and that's a nice, nice number to start with.

WCR: Hungry...bless her, she is chowing down like she never saw food before. LOL. While I haven't seen her poop/pee, she gave me purrs and "played" with Malachi (erm, well, played may not be the right word; typical thumping of the kitten occurred. Of course, he was leaping on her head, so...thumping was deserved...).

She's a happy camper this morning! And so am I. :)

Best-
Michele
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

Great start for the day.

Be careful re. NSAIDS. You might want to PM Cassandra about this. There are some NSAIDS that are associated with some dire side effects. Keep in mind, insulin can always be adjusted to compensate for the steroids.
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

Sienne, thanks. I'll go without the antiinflammatories if needed; once the infection has cleared up, the inflammation will go away too - after all, it's caused by the infection. So if I can treat successfully the cause, other issues should resolve themselves, right?

I'll call my vet, and see what she says...but I think we're safe enough to go with just abx...I'd rather not throw more insulin in if I don't have to, you know?

And yes, Ronnie, Esse looks good in blue and yellow...

Best-
Michele
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

AMPS+3.25=342.
AMPS=4=325 Fancy Feast Chix. for snack.

Still waiting on a callback from the vet...

best-
Michele
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

Choy-Foong (MCF/Meowzi) may be a good person to contact about the ears. She's been dealing with ear problems with Meowzi for quite some time.

Love that AMPS! :-D
 
Re: 01/04: Esse AMPS=205

I love that AMPS too...but she's now, +8, at 480.

Is this another rebound? So soon? I had blue this morning, raised to low yellow at AMPS, one reading in the pinks, and now she's red heading black...if this is a rebound, I need to reduce the dose, right? This time, I don't have steroids, a stray biscuit, or anything else to blame it on...

I am so totally lost here. And yes, I tested the meter on myself...I'm 103. So it's not the meter...

Opinions, ideas, thoughts, explanations...anything?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Best-
Michele
 
Here's my spin...

Esse is bouncing from the blue last night at PM +11.25. If you look at the progression of her numbers, she's been steadily increasing since then. You don't decrease the dose for a rebound. If you look at the bounce from 12/31, you kept the dose constant. Remember, decreases are based on numbers less than 50.

Take a look at Gabby's SS on 11/14. It will reassure you that many of our kitties ride a rollercoaster.
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
Here's my spin...

Esse is bouncing from the blue last night at PM +11.25. If you look at the progression of her numbers, she's been steadily increasing since then. You don't decrease the dose for a rebound. If you look at the bounce from 12/31, you kept the dose constant. Remember, decreases are based on numbers less than 50.

Take a look at Gabby's SS on 11/14. It will reassure you that many of our kitties ride a rollercoaster.
Click to expand...

Sienne, I guess what I'm thinking about is the somogyi rebound, which comes from too much insulin...she did see green at 2.25, and she's at 2.5 with no green (that I've caught...), and with such wide swings and nothing else to point to, I can only think of somogyi. If it is somogyi, then yes, decrease is the resolution. But how to tell if it's somogyi?

I just don't know...I am going to set 4 different alarms tonight and try my damnedest to get a 2-3 am reading...that may be what's going on; she's going low in the middle of the night, and then spiking up, and that would be nearly classic somogyi. I don't know what else to think - I sincerely doubt it's dawn phenom, because the numbers don't point to that...but I suppose it could be.

Hrm...

Best-
Michele
 
Michele and Esse said:
Sienne, I guess what I'm thinking about is the somogyi rebound, which comes from too much insulin...she did see green at 2.25, and she's at 2.5 with no green (that I've caught...), and with such wide swings and nothing else to point to, I can only think of somogyi. If it is somogyi, then yes, decrease is the resolution. But how to tell if it's somogyi?
Click to expand...

If you are following the Tilly Protocol, you do not decrease for Somogyi. You plow through it. That is what liver training is all about. Have to get rid of thinking in terms of other insulins when following Tilly. They just don't work the same way.
 
Cassandra and Sasha said:
Michele and Esse said:
Sienne, I guess what I'm thinking about is the somogyi rebound, which comes from too much insulin...she did see green at 2.25, and she's at 2.5 with no green (that I've caught...), and with such wide swings and nothing else to point to, I can only think of somogyi. If it is somogyi, then yes, decrease is the resolution. But how to tell if it's somogyi?
Click to expand...

If you are following the Tilly Protocol, you do not decrease for Somogyi. You plow through it. That is what liver training is all about. Have to get rid of thinking in terms of other insulins when following Tilly. They just don't work the same way.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize that. I understand the concept of not shooting the numbers ("chasing the dragon"), but what is the concept behind not decreasing the dose if it's demonstrated to be somogyi?

Best-
Michele

ETA: Just read through the Tilly protocol, and it seems that they discount the concept of somogyi in both humans and cats. I'm not sure I can agree with that, inasmuch as in school, we're taught about somogyi, and I've seen something (if not somogyi, something very similar to what it is in humans) in Esse. So I'm quite confused at this point...
 
The whole concept basically boils down to if you use Tilly and increase in the methodical way that Tilly does, then the chance for being overdose is rare. Liver training and the bounces we see are just the body's natural reaction to numbers it is not used to.

This thread from the old Think Tank may help explain a little better than I can: http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/r ... 15,1714582

And Tilly does say (under Phase 2):

The German TR Protocol with Lantus or Levemir for Diabetic Cats does state:

"Be aware that experimental studies in human diabetics over the last 15-20 have rejected the existence of the Somogyi effect (sometimes also called rebound). In cats, no studies have ever been done which properly demonstrate that such a phenomenon exists. Therefore, adjust the dose as described above, focusing on the nadir: don't do so-called rebound checks, as they only lead to unnecessary (and unhealthy!) hyperglycemia."
 
Coming from a history of such high numbers, a bounce from a blue number is normal, I agree with Cassandra....just have to plow through it - Be the tank.
If a kitty is used to such high numbers it's just going to take time for the liver to learn not be afraid of the lower ones, and I wouldn't classify a 182 as LOW. For a non-diabetic cat that 182 is HIGH. Esse will get used to the lower numbers and hopefully stop with the severe bouncing. It took Punk's liver a loooooooong time to get over the shock of normal BG levels. Even now with Punk's numbers being in the low blues and many greens, I'll still hold her dose through a bounce then decrease the next day. Again, I recall in the beginning, It would take Punk sometimes 2 - 3 days to clear a bounce and level off a bit.

I'm not a vet, but this doesn't say somogyi to me, it says Liver Training School. :mrgreen:

I thought I hit "submit" but apparently not....hope this doesn't duplicate. :)
 
I hear you, and yes, I know that Tilly P doesn't necessarily believe in somogyi. And yes, LTS is something Esse has to do.

I'll hold the dose, I'm just discussing possibilities and bouncing ideas around...rebounds are tough to see...especially since things broke yesterday, and today, here we are again. Sigh.

Best-
Michele
 
Hang in there Michele. She is overreacting to the numbers. She will learn, just takes time. Try not to stress too much. Yesterday is forgotten, Tomorrow is unknown. Today you are doing fine, just anxious to help your kitty. Come on Esse. Relax, visit the lower floors. It is nice down there you will see.
 
I hear ya, Michele. Lucy took a long time to learn to stop bouncing. Fortunately she didn't usually bounce all the way to red/black, but boy could she hit the pinks, and then get great numbers in between the pink preshots. Gabby can go from 400 to 40 and back to 400 in one cycle. Mocha is another pretty talented bouncer, who is just starting to move past that phase (*anti-jinx*). Jackie mentioned our saying here "be the tank." It's because tanks always get where they are going. ;-)
 
PMPS=466. Shot 2.5U.

I'm trying to be the tank. I feel like a papier mache tank, but I'm trying anyway. Poor Esse Mamacat...

OTOH, she apparently doesn't quite care about where her numbers are...ready for dinner, hopped onto a stool for testing, really wants my milk (I know, I know...trust me, she's not getting it), and is just now curling up in the bowl by my computer. LOL...she's behaving just fine. Not a huge appetite, but that's all right...she did eat some.

Best-
Michele
 
Michele and Esse said:
I hear you, and yes, I know that Tilly P doesn't necessarily believe in somogyi. And yes, LTS is something Esse has to do.

I'll hold the dose, I'm just discussing possibilities and bouncing ideas around...rebounds are tough to see...especially since things broke yesterday, and today, here we are again. Sigh.

Best-
Michele
Click to expand...
Now let's hope that tomorrow Esse will 'break' the bounce again and give you some more attractive numbers. School is in session for Esse's liver training.
 
PMPS +2=448.

At least it's less than it was at PMPS...

I'm going to head out now...I'll try my best to get some early am numbers, but I'm quite tempted to just "ignore" it, test and shoot at PS times at least for tomorrow, give her ears a bit of a break, and just relax a little.

Saying that, I probably won't actually do it...but still...this is very frustrating to me.

Best-
Michele
 
Oh, I know how you feel. Chloe's been riding the roller coaster lately, too. It can be SO frustrating. I keep reminding myself that Chloe looks and feels so much better now, that no matter what her numbers are, I KNOW she's better. And, I don't think she knows what her numbers are, so I try to keep that in mind and not get discouraged.

I'm right beside you, trying to be the tank!

Paws crossed for the bounces to turn quickly into bouncettes!
 
You have been doing such a great job, and again, look at the whole cat--Sounds from you descriptions, that Esse is happy & well..The numbers change, as you can see, in a blink of an eye, but the whole cat sounds like she's feeling fine.
Plow through the rebounds, it's all we can do..Rebound is the natural defense of the cat's body that occurs, and it goes by quickly..Hoping Esse will have better numbers tomorrow! You need HUGS~! :YMHUG:
 
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