Oh no numbers increasing ~ help! Advice needed..

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kitten68

kitten68

Member Since 2024
Kitty's #s today some of the highest they've been.. into early 400s. last night 277/286 which is what averaging, sometimes low 300s (understand same#.. but like to check) im freaked out. really discouraged and worried. last thing is to have the numbers go too high.. been updating SS.. maybe someone can give some insight. idk. I noticed last night his little ears seemed hot.. understand this could be a sign of high bg.. Am really hoping not infecting his ears with testing or something; always use a new lancet and do my best to get the outer rim but sometimes go more in the ear than I mean to.. Discussed w doctor prior to finding numbers today about his recent numbers the past week; noticing they were going up at night after dose increase, when they hadn't before.. idk if I've been giving his injection properly.. been trying to avoid muscle because that really hurts and been making a tent, but doing it a little high on the tent, is this bad? sometimes he feels it, other times no.. been trying my best to not have it hurt which is why I do that. my fridge also runs cold (high 20s, low 30s); not sure if this might be a problem.. it's been ok seemingly prior to this. :( :( really hope its not destroying the insulin.

Did not take him into vet (weekly checks rn..) because of the weekend and wanted to see how he would do more on this dose and now regret it.. afraid I missed a window or something and now its high.. didn't want to change anything til a day vet is open in case of something.. Also spoke with them on changing to Lantus but their not convinced it will improve/give results looking for.. But we can if I want. Said to continue current regimen and will see Monday. Called of course again today after high reading and was instructed to monitor, give dose, check peak, call back.... They are worried for him too. :) *cries but just to monitor.. will be checking BG levels throughout if can.. just trying not to prick him too much cause it does depress him. :( I need to give break days.. have been trying to though to see the affects of the Vetsulin.. do have some readings on SS.

so I've been reallyyyy considering changing him to Lantus. have found it's not as expensive as its been said; its about the same damn price as Vetsulin rn and I heard folks on the forum suggest as well as personally (ty!) they know of affordable places to get it (the vet knew about it but didn't prescribe it cause they thought its too expensive............ things is, Vetsulin don't even last 12 hours right.. short acting, his numbers go back up after +9 or +10 im seeing... and heard this is the case. this doesn't bother his vet tho. (???) people on the forum are very persistent that Lantus is better. although some people wrote that as their cat healed, the duration got longer on Vetsulin (?) but it's hard for me to see him not feel great. this is terrible. these numbers this morning. im appalled. so idk.regarding numbers are now higher in evening when they weren't before.. and now his sugars were the highest they've been... im perplexed on this. dose needs increasing again apparently/obviously.... but im afraid to drop it too low too, things like this have to be gradual right? another good thing about Lantus is that the pens don't need refrigeration? if anyone can give advices on where to source, plz also do! so can think on.. have found prices from Walmart and Costco.. very comparable (around $77 vial/$115 pens.. and pens give 5 month supply right? will have to pay tho for another curve for vet to find dose, unless you all might also have a suggestion on this.... so scary)

SIGH. *cries :arghh: any advice appreciated.. its so hard to see him not feeling well and I worry so much about his little body.. his eyes. :( I don't think he can see great rn and also still has a bit of stuffy nostril.. I will say tho he's acting ok, eating good, but just this sucks bad. I was hoping tings were maybe improving but I see he probably needs more on the Vetsulin.. really hoping the dose today helps it come back down.. he was a bit stressed in the AM cause it wasn't time, but im going to be considering and trying to remember exact times cause today for example.. he could've gotten it 30 minutes earlier.. cause of the time yesterday. but idk if that's a significant thing.. nights stress him more than days. :( so much is going on too rn, its been challenging. eh.

thanks a lot to this forum.. its nice to have community and support with this because it initially was very isolating and despairing. thanks.. sorry too this was really long.

and not sure how to tag, but going to try linking from my posts since seriously considering Lantus and just ty for advices! (sorry if missed anyone, scrolling though.. and oh! it worked! easy peasy): @Shell @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Diane Tyler's Mom @Marje and Gracie @Bandit's Mom @Noah & me (GA) :blackeye::cat::blackeye::cat:

PS. please let me know decorum on tagging; sorry if not supposed to but lmk :) wanted to.. also wrote a lot/thorough cause understand any updates become constant alerts.. o_O
 
kitten68 said:
Kitty's #s today some of the highest they've been.. into early 400s. last night 277/286 which is what averaging, sometimes low 300s (understand same#.. but like to check) im freaked out. really discouraged and worried. last thing is to have the numbers go too high.. been updating SS.. maybe someone can give some insight. idk. I noticed last night his little ears seemed hot.. understand this could be a sign of high bg.. Am really hoping not infecting his ears with testing or something; always use a new lancet and do my best to get the outer rim but sometimes go more in the ear than I mean to.. Discussed w doctor prior to finding numbers today about his recent numbers the past week; noticing they were going up at night after dose increase, when they hadn't before.. idk if I've been giving his injection properly.. been trying to avoid muscle because that really hurts and been making a tent, but doing it a little high on the tent, is this bad? sometimes he feels it, other times no.. been trying my best to not have it hurt which is why I do that. my fridge also runs cold (high 20s, low 30s); not sure if this might be a problem.. it's been ok seemingly prior to this. :( :( really hope its not destroying the insulin.

Did not take him into vet (weekly checks rn..) because of the weekend and wanted to see how he would do more on this dose and now regret it.. afraid I missed a window or something and now its high.. didn't want to change anything til a day vet is open in case of something.. Also spoke with them on changing to Lantus but their not convinced it will improve/give results looking for.. But we can if I want. Said to continue current regimen and will see Monday. Called of course again today after high reading and was instructed to monitor, give dose, check peak, call back.... They are worried for him too. :) *cries but just to monitor.. will be checking BG levels throughout if can.. just trying not to prick him too much cause it does depress him. :( I need to give break days.. have been trying to though to see the affects of the Vetsulin.. do have some readings on SS.

so I've been reallyyyy considering changing him to Lantus. have found it's not as expensive as its been said; its about the same damn price as Vetsulin rn and I heard folks on the forum suggest as well as personally (ty!) they know of affordable places to get it (the vet knew about it but didn't prescribe it cause they thought its too expensive............ things is, Vetsulin don't even last 12 hours right.. short acting, his numbers go back up after +9 or +10 im seeing... and heard this is the case. this doesn't bother his vet tho. (???) people on the forum are very persistent that Lantus is better. although some people wrote that as their cat healed, the duration got longer on Vetsulin (?) but it's hard for me to see him not feel great. this is terrible. these numbers this morning. im appalled. so idk.regarding numbers are now higher in evening when they weren't before.. and now his sugars were the highest they've been... im perplexed on this. dose needs increasing again apparently/obviously.... but im afraid to drop it too low too, things like this have to be gradual right? another good thing about Lantus is that the pens don't need refrigeration? if anyone can give advices on where to source, plz also do! so can think on.. have found prices from Walmart and Costco.. very comparable (around $77 vial/$115 pens.. and pens give 5 month supply right? will have to pay tho for another curve for vet to find dose, unless you all might also have a suggestion on this.... so scary)

SIGH. *cries :arghh: any advice appreciated.. its so hard to see him not feeling well and I worry so much about his little body.. his eyes. :( I don't think he can see great rn and also still has a bit of stuffy nostril.. I will say tho he's acting ok, eating good, but just this sucks bad. I was hoping tings were maybe improving but I see he probably needs more on the Vetsulin.. really hoping the dose today helps it come back down.. he was a bit stressed in the AM cause it wasn't time, but im going to be considering and trying to remember exact times cause today for example.. he could've gotten it 30 minutes earlier.. cause of the time yesterday. but idk if that's a significant thing.. nights stress him more than days. :( so much is going on too rn, its been challenging. eh.

thanks a lot to this forum.. its nice to have community and support with this because it initially was very isolating and despairing. thanks.. sorry too this was really long.

and not sure how to tag, but going to try linking from my posts since seriously considering Lantus and just ty for advices! (sorry if missed anyone, scrolling though.. and oh! it worked! easy peasy): @Shell @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Bron and Sheba (GA) @Diane Tyler's Mom @Marje and Gracie @Bandit's Mom @Noah & me (GA) :blackeye::cat::blackeye::cat:



PS. please let me know decorum on tagging; sorry if not supposed to but lmk :) wanted to.. also wrote a lot/thorough cause understand any updates become constant alerts.. o_O
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Hello! My Vet said Lantus was her favorite. She's pretty well versed in feline diabetes. She is the one of the most knowledgeable, smart Vets I've found. I've had quite a few. Anyhow, she didn't specifically specify her reason for Lantus preference. I can guess it's due to long acting and flatter curves, but that's only a guess. She left my options open and I trust her so much, I selected Lantus or Glarine (generic).
 
Just to be transparent, I'm not a fan of Vetsulin. You've no doubt heard the reasons: it was originally formulated for dogs (it's other name is Caninsulin), because it wasn't developed for cats it doesn't have the necessary duration to accommodate a cat's faster metabolism, it acts quickly and can drop numbers hard and fast, and it's no longer approved by the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of feline diabetes. The AAHA supports the use of Lantus (glargine) or Prozinc.

Looking at Pudge's SS, a couple of things I noticed. You need to get a minimum of one test during the PM cycle. The likely reason that Pudges numbers were higher this morning is that he dropped into blue numbers during the PM cycle. If he drops into a range that his body isn't used to, there is likely to be a "bounce" into higher numbers. Bounces are normal -- annoying to us but normal. If you don't get PM tests, you're missing half of your data. This is not a good thing with Vetsulin. Pudge could have dropped into dose reduction (or lower) range and you would never know.

If you are using the dosing methods we advocate here, you need to consider adjusting the dose every seven days. You've been at the current dose for 11 days. Holding a dose that isn't getting numbers where you want them isn't helpful. Also, we increase doses by 0.25u so you don't go speeding by what could be a good dose for your cat.
 
Shell said:
Hello! My Vet said Lantus was her favorite. She's pretty well versed in feline diabetes. She is the one of the most knowledgeable, smart Vets I've found. I've had quite a few. Anyhow, she didn't specifically specify her reason for Lantus preference. I can guess it's due to long acting and flatter curves, but that's only a guess. She left my options open and I trust her so much, I selected Lantus or Glarine (generic).
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great to know thanks :) actually discussed things w the vet today and he told me to look at finding Lantus.. (!! ;)) though he wants to do this slowly.. apparently though looks like Pudgles might've bounced last night according to Sienne and Gaby.. yikes! I will not be increasing anything.. going to monitor over the weekend and see.... take lots of readings... so thankful cause idk what anything exactly means yet..
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Just to be transparent, I'm not a fan of Vetsulin. You've no doubt heard the reasons: it was originally formulated for dogs (it's other name is Caninsulin), because it wasn't developed for cats it doesn't have the necessary duration to accommodate a cat's faster metabolism, it acts quickly and can drop numbers hard and fast, and it's no longer approved by the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of feline diabetes. The AAHA supports the use of Lantus (glargine) or Prozinc.

Looking at Pudge's SS, a couple of things I noticed. You need to get a minimum of one test during the PM cycle. The likely reason that Pudges numbers were higher this morning is that he dropped into blue numbers during the PM cycle. If he drops into a range that his body isn't used to, there is likely to be a "bounce" into higher numbers. Bounces are normal -- annoying to us but normal. If you don't get PM tests, you're missing half of your data. This is not a good thing with Vetsulin. Pudge could have dropped into dose reduction (or lower) range and you would never know.

If you are using the dosing methods we advocate here, you need to consider adjusting the dose every seven days. You've been at the current dose for 11 days. Holding a dose that isn't getting numbers where you want them isn't helpful. Also, we increase doses by 0.25u so you don't go speeding by what could be a good dose for your cat.
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tysm for your input!! neither am i. I don't like that it burns through at +9.. and tysm cuz truly idk what im looking at.. learning as I go, and indeed, dosing methods? where are those for me to read? there's things I still don't know.. I'm going to read over about Lantus and can read on these too.. checked the site and have heard in passing about dosing slow, etc. and that there are methods but I don't know where to read on them.. which is also why I've been taking it slow on his doses because it was suggested to me strongly not to race past doses; thank you tho for helping me realize the time (its been a whirlwind around here.. im juggling a lot of things this past week.. for example, A/C on the fritz at the moment and it's Saturday night... a bunch of things just going on requiring attention.. just sigh.) I've heard some stay on doses 10-14 days to make sure but plz lmk your opinion on that only cuz I didn't want to change anything over a weekend; will be going in Monday and changes can happen better within 7 days (or not!) if needed.. (since it's during the early week) I was told to do it slow and guess I didn't understand; I need to read the articles on insulin I guess.. I don't recall the Beginner Vetsulin mentioning when to change doses (like modifying/checking every 7 days based off the scale they have there..)

I've been seriously considering this (changing medicine) and will probably do this very soon.. the vet is also now on board; today when I spoke with them about Pudgle's #'s they were worried too and told me to look into finding some Glargine (I have already found sources and prices; Walmart is looking to be the place.. if you can suggest any as well plz lmk; someone mentioned helping me with this but I will have to comb through to see who exactly..) the only thing though is that I hear its easier to overdose on Glargine than Vetsulin (like misdosing by accident cause .25 is tiny tiny..).. do you find this true?

TYSM for making sense of the data... I KNEW there was something there!! but my expertise is ongoing.. I feel terrible he bounced (but bouncing is normal?.. that's not great though is it?..) but elated that maybe his dose should actually come down.. (???) am I understanding correctly? that's right his dose has been for a week and a half now.. today is day 10. but maybe it was good? if its showing he needs to reduce? we wouldn't have known changing the dose earlier??? im glad I didn't increase yet considering this.. but idk how things work also. (vet and me were thinking 2 U AM, 1.5 PM but now will definitely take the weekend to see cause was waiting til Monday just in case it went sideways..) but ty for warning me about this! this is why I posted the thread.. I will definitely be testing more tonite to see.. understand about testing, and will do more PM doses now that I know this; I was trying... just he's been so miserable with testing but I am feeling its becoming just another thing as time wears on and its no big deal, just something done now ~ when should I be testing ideally in the evenings? At least once? I try to get sleep at night but am awake from time to time.. (he's hungry and needs feeding at times..) what PM times are optimal? will definitely be doing so tonite again.. and good to know on dosing. and the thing is my current syringes are by 1 U only.. :/ .5 increases most feasible rn..
 
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Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Just to be transparent, I'm not a fan of Vetsulin. You've no doubt heard the reasons: it was originally formulated for dogs (it's other name is Caninsulin), because it wasn't developed for cats it doesn't have the necessary duration to accommodate a cat's faster metabolism, it acts quickly and can drop numbers hard and fast, and it's no longer approved by the American Animal Hospital Assn for the treatment of feline diabetes. The AAHA supports the use of Lantus (glargine) or Prozinc.

Looking at Pudge's SS, a couple of things I noticed. You need to get a minimum of one test during the PM cycle. The likely reason that Pudges numbers were higher this morning is that he dropped into blue numbers during the PM cycle. If he drops into a range that his body isn't used to, there is likely to be a "bounce" into higher numbers. Bounces are normal -- annoying to us but normal. If you don't get PM tests, you're missing half of your data. This is not a good thing with Vetsulin. Pudge could have dropped into dose reduction (or lower) range and you would never know.

If you are using the dosing methods we advocate here, you need to consider adjusting the dose every seven days. You've been at the current dose for 11 days. Holding a dose that isn't getting numbers where you want them isn't helpful. Also, we increase doses by 0.25u so you don't go speeding by what could be a good dose for your cat.
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also.. is the idea to be testing multiple times a day (aside from PS), most or all of the time? or whenever feasible? try to get at least PEAK times?..
 
kitten68 said:
great to know thanks :) actually discussed things w the vet today and he told me to look at finding Lantus.. (!! ;)) though he wants to do this slowly.. apparently though looks like Pudgles might've bounced last night according to Sienne and Gaby.. yikes! I will not be increasing anything.. going to monitor over the weekend and see.... take lots of readings... so thankful cause idk what anything exactly means yet..
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I am not familiar with what a bounce is. Is there a thread that explains it? Or, better... What is a bounce? :)
 
Shell said:
I am not familiar with what a bounce is. Is there a thread that explains it? Or, better... What is a bounce? :)
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am reading on it more now myself.. I knew they existed and kinda what it is but apparently.. when the sugars get too low, the body, liver, etc, shoots the bloodstream with hormones/sugar/ something and so the BG will go/look sky high.. here's some articles/blogs im reading now to see if can get a solid answer/idea.. :cat:o_O

https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/what-is-bouncing.226462/
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-and-dealing-with-bounces.231637/
https://sugarcatdiary.wordpress.com/2020/01/08/day-9-bounce/
 
@kitten68 You've probably noticed by now we're pretty casual here, there is no decorum on tagging. Some members like me who often take a week or two off won't reply right away and others have their own reasons although I can't imagine what they'd be. If you're ever in a real jamb tag the members with the most knowledge (which is not me) like Larry and kitties, Diane Tyler's Mom, or any of the moderators like Sienne and Gabby (GA), Marje and Gracie or Wendy&Neko. The moderators are all volunteers and always busy so just be brief.
I can tell you Vetsulin / Caninsulin is a terrible insulin. It was originally made for dogs, is hard on a cats systems and often doesn't last a 12 hour cycle.
Best of luck. What looks like a tragedy now will just become an inconvenience later, I promise.
 
It takes a while to get familiar with how the entire website is organized. The Feline Health board (this forum) is the entry point. If you look at the top or the bottom of every page, there is a navigation line. For this page, it reads:
Home Forums Main - Feline Health & FAQsFeline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)

If you click on "Forums" it will take you to a page with all of the different sections of FDMB. There are separate Insulin Support Groups (ISG) for each of the different insulins. If you look on the Caninsulin/Vetsulin and N/NPH support group page, you will find information about both of those types of insulin. The Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin is where information on dosing is located. If you switch over to Lantus, you will find a similar page that is dedicated exclusively to Lantus and Levemir.

@Diane Tyler's Mom can direct you to resources for purchasing Lantus at a reasonable cost. Just an FYI - Lantus is now available as a generic, or more correctly as a biosimilar -- glargine. Glargine is far less expensive and has become more easily available. Prices can vary from pharmacy to pharmacy so you may need to call around. Places like Costco or Sam's Club often have very discounted prices and you don't always need to be a member to use the pharmacy. The coupons, which Diane is very familiar with, also make glargine affordable. Just don't share that the insulin is for your cat with the pharmacist. Sometimes, this can void the coupon.

Regarding testing.... For all of the different types of insulin, you really need to test a minimum of 4 times per day. The AMPS and PMPS are two of those tests. You need to get at least one additional test during both the AM and PM cycles. When it's best to test depends on the insulin and on your cat. I was a Lantus user. Lantus nadir (lowest point in the cycle) is supposed to be at +6. That said, some cats have a typically early or late nadir. My cat had an early nadir. Her low point was at around +3, except for those times when it wasn't. Nadirs can and do move around. (Cats do not like to be predictable!)

Pudge's numbers do not suggest that you need to reduce the dose. Using our dosing instructions, you do not reduce unless the numbers drop below 90. Pudge hasn't been near a dose reduction point yet. If anything, I would consider increasing his dose to 1.75u.
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
@kitten68 You've probably noticed by now we're pretty casual here, there is no decorum on tagging. Some members like me who often take a week or two off won't reply right away and others have their own reasons although I can't imagine what they'd be. If you're ever in a real jamb tag the members with the most knowledge (which is not me) like Larry and kitties, Diane Tyler's Mom, or any of the moderators like Sienne and Gabby (GA), Marje and Gracie or Wendy&Neko. The moderators are all volunteers and always busy so just be brief.
I can tell you Vetsulin / Caninsulin is a terrible insulin. It was originally made for dogs, is hard on a cats systems and often doesn't last a 12 hour cycle.
Best of luck. What looks like a tragedy now will just become an inconvenience later, I promise.
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thank you!!!! :) :D tysm.. doing our best. :) will definitely keep in mind on tagging; thanks for listing!

of course I find this out (Vetsulin) after he's started it.. and before I knew about Lantus (Glargine..) yet the vet was sure it's expensive; Vetsulin is the option "most affordable". is Lantus comparable consistently in price or? someone told me they could give advice on where to get it, some people use Canadian pharmacies (!), and I found some places that rn its very close to Vetsulin in price and want to change.. was thinking to do the pens; you get 5 months for about $40 more.. :) (each vial is good for 28 days so..) idk why vets continue to use Vetsulin for felines.. just don't know I guess.
 
kitten68 said:
is Lantus comparable consistently in price or? someone told me they could give advice on where to get it, some people use Canadian pharmacies (!), and I found some places that rn its very close to Vetsulin in price and want to change.. was thinking to do the pens; you get 5 months for about $40 more.. :) (each vial is good for 28 days so..)
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You find all the relevant information under Lantus/Levemir/Biosimilars, as per Sienne's guidance a few posts above.
Some [in fact, most] of us use cartridges way longer than a month too, but again, feel free to read through all the information, even before the changeover. Likely you'll find the answers for most of your questions :)
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
It takes a while to get familiar with how the entire website is organized. The Feline Health board (this forum) is the entry point. If you look at the top or the bottom of every page, there is a navigation line. For this page, it reads:
Home Forums Main - Feline Health & FAQsFeline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)

If you click on "Forums" it will take you to a page with all of the different sections of FDMB. There are separate Insulin Support Groups (ISG) for each of the different insulins. If you look on the Caninsulin/Vetsulin and N/NPH support group page, you will find information about both of those types of insulin. The Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin is where information on dosing is located. If you switch over to Lantus, you will find a similar page that is dedicated exclusively to Lantus and Levemir.

@Diane Tyler's Mom can direct you to resources for purchasing Lantus at a reasonable cost. Just an FYI - Lantus is now available as a generic, or more correctly as a biosimilar -- glargine. Glargine is far less expensive and has become more easily available. Prices can vary from pharmacy to pharmacy so you may need to call around. Places like Costco or Sam's Club often have very discounted prices and you don't always need to be a member to use the pharmacy. The coupons, which Diane is very familiar with, also make glargine affordable. Just don't share that the insulin is for your cat with the pharmacist. Sometimes, this can void the coupon.

Regarding testing.... For all of the different types of insulin, you really need to test a minimum of 4 times per day. The AMPS and PMPS are two of those tests. You need to get at least one additional test during both the AM and PM cycles. When it's best to test depends on the insulin and on your cat. I was a Lantus user. Lantus nadir (lowest point in the cycle) is supposed to be at +6. That said, some cats have a typically early or late nadir. My cat had an early nadir. Her low point was at around +3, except for those times when it wasn't. Nadirs can and do move around. (Cats do not like to be predictable!)

Pudge's numbers do not suggest that you need to reduce the dose. Using our dosing instructions, you do not reduce unless the numbers drop below 90. Pudge hasn't been near a dose reduction point yet. If anything, I would consider increasing his dose to 1.75u.
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thank you for clarifying.. its been a lot of information and im just trying to apply it to our specific needs.. im realizing im still trying to understand bouncing and yes, right, his numbers generally seem to indicate a benefit of increasing.. bounces just happen then? I took a bunch of readings last night (peak times) and made sure he ate when hungry and his numbers were back to average this morning.. :) shrug.

I will peruse the website more and am trying to reading on Lantus rn.. thanks for letting me know how to navigate a bit better. will see. have read the Beginners Guide (Vetsulin) and did see dosing but can't recall if they ever said how long to keep doses for.. thanks for letting me know. his vet also mentioned about a week is a fine time to look at/change things.. thank you for mentioning who to ask on Lantus/Glargine! will definitely ask; though when it comes to the pharmacy.. how exactly to fill the script without a name/patient? People say its for them instead?.. not sure how that would work, records, etc, or if its paid in cash that's less of a problem? So far, I asked the pharmacies I called if it was cool its for Pudge and they said sure.. they have other kitty patients on Lantus. but interesting about the coupons.. will see. pharmacies so far contacted only have Lantus, not generic..

THANK YOU for advice on testing frequency.. will do our best. I imagine you are always testing, then, while finding the dose and beyond.... on Vetsulin, he's showing his nadirs to be between +5,+6.. so far anyway o_O good to know too nadirs move around.. and also know things can be different just hour to hour. *cries :)

where exactly are the dosing instructions? the Beginner Vetsulin page (on the insulin pages generally?)? will look over again.. right, now I remember, only reduce if the nadir is 90 or lower right?.. still confused tho on why/how bounces happen. still a bit confused about bounces. if you catch a bounce, what do you do btw?? but will keep in mind.. thanks for dosing suggestion! the vet was thinking upping it to 2u.. now im not sure. would like to do just .25 more also but it would be a little difficult for me to measure another .25.. using U40's (1 units)... im confused why its suggested always .25 but the syringes are measured at 1 units.. are there special syringes you can get with .25 measurements? :)

PS. Beginner's does say at least a week.. and heard go slow.. but now will try to keep in mind in terms of changes :)
 
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Don Degludec said:
You find all the relevant information under Lantus/Levemir/Biosimilars, as per Sienne's guidance a few posts above.
Some [in fact, most] of us use cartridges way longer than a month too, but again, feel free to read through all the information, even before the changeover. Likely you'll find the answers for most of your questions :)
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cool! I heard this too and frankly seems like the way to go to an extent since it doesn't seem like testing how viable the insulin is over time was priority in these studies.. I heard Vetsulin only has a shelf life on the box of 42 days because the study was only 42 days.. not because they found it unusable. ... smh. whatever. :rolleyes: I DEFINTELY am reading all I can before changing.. his vet is coming around to Lantus when they kind of weren't into it; told me to look into it.. :D still wants to be slow; still using Vetsulin for now... but say a win. :cat: lets see.
 
It's never too late to switch a cat's insulin. Ask your vet first but I think I had to wait 72 hours before switching. Vetsulin is a terrible insulin that should have been pulled from the shelves years ago.
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
It's never too late to switch a cat's insulin. Ask your vet first but I think I had to wait 72 hours before switching. Vetsulin is a terrible insulin that should have been pulled from the shelves years ago.
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gross! :banghead: oh well.......... hopefully something will come of it. lets see.. here's to everyone getting more informed.

and right! of course not late right.. this is true. :cat: you know, I just think of where we could be had we been put on one of the proper ones.. but alas. :woot: neither here nor there now I suppose. tho you have to be pretty precise with dose right? cause vet has one kitty patient on it (Lantus) and they OD one time.. said you need good eyes..... but seriously considering changing asap, vet wants to be slow about it (they were kinda lukewarm before but.. win! :) I didn't even mention it; they brought it up..)
 
I need to go over all my threads again.. commit all this great information.. will do my best. :D thanks everyone..... and it sounds like I need syringes with half units... SIGH.
 
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The information on dosing is in the Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin. There's a section that's titled, "Dosing with Caninsulin/Vetsulin." the section is broken down into subsections on key terms, starting dose, changing the dose, general guidelines, and important and helpful hints. The general guidelines section tells you when to increase or decrease the dose.

It's not problematic to get Lantus/glargine for your cat. Some pharmacies are difficult if you want to use a coupon for a cat. Just say it's for your kid. You can't say it's for you since if you have insurance, it's a problem. Likewise, the vet isn't going to give you a prescription with your name on it. The issue is that Lantus/glargine does not have an indication for cats despite the amount of research and recommendations from veterinary associations. As a result, the drug company may not provide financial support back to the pharmacies if they are aware that the insulin is being. used off label. Some of those restrictions may have eased up but better to not get a very expensive bill for Pudge's insulin if you can avoid it.

You don't do anything with a bounce. It's a normal response to numbers dropping lower than what your cat is used to. The liver and pancreas go into protective mode by releasing a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones. These cause numbers to spike upward. It also can take up to 3 days for the the bounce to clear. Bounces will start to lessen in frequency and clear more quickly as Pudge gets used to being in normal range numbers.

We increase in 0.25u increments for a couple of reasons. By increasing in a small amount you don't go sailing past what would be a good dose for your cat. In a similar vein, you limit the possibility of overdosing your cat. Consider that increasing by 1.0u is four times as large of an increase than what we suggest. That may be trivial in a human but cats are small animals. We refer to the dosing method as Start Low Go Slow for a reason! We also reduce doses by 0.25u. The rationale is that you want to provide support for a healing pancreas for as long as possible.

There are no syringes that are manufactured with 0.25u markings. The best that's available are syringes with half unit increments. It's dumb. Even with infants, you'd want to increase in small amount so who knows why syringes in smaller increments are not manufactured.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
@Diane Tyler's Mom can direct you to resources for purchasing Lantus at a reasonable cost. Just an FYI - Lantus is now available as a generic, or more correctly as a biosimilar -- glargine. Glargine is far less expensive and has become more easily available. Prices can vary from pharmacy to pharmacy so you may need to call around. Places like Costco or Sam's Club often have very discounted prices and you don't always need to be a member to use the pharmacy. The coupons, which Diane is very familiar with, also make glargine affordable. Just don't share that the insulin is for your cat with the pharmacist. Sometimes, this can void the coupon.
Click to expand...
A member said she followed this prescription info exactly and it worked perfectly. Hope this helps!
Then go to the Lantus site to generate the coupon as in second image.
upload_2023-12-1_6-57-52-png.68163

upload_2023-12-1_6-59-16-png.68164



Or
Most members get the generic you can get generic/biosimilar glargine at very reasonable prices using GoodRx coupon. Most members use the generic because Lantus is to expensive.
https://www.goodrx.com/lantus?label...d-pens-of-100-units-ml&quantity=1&slug=lantus
Make sure that the Match your prescription pull down menu says generic glargine 1carton of 5 3ml pens.

Lantus usually doesn't kick in until 2 hours after the shot

We buy the pens but use the syringes to draw out the insulin because if you use the pen you can only adjust by full units ,we adjust the doses by 0.25units
If you do switch to lantus the generic you will need
U -100 SYRINGES WITH HALF UNIT MARKINGS
I can suggest a few if you would like


Also
The 5 pens will last about a year, we use the pens just like a vial, you would just insert the syringe it the gray rubber stopper on the pen and draw out your insulin
Its generic lantus

If you use the Good Rx
GoodRX has a 1-800 number to assist you in using their services to get your pets prescriptions filled if the pharmacy gives you any issues.

I think I found it for you
GoodRx / Customer service

1 (855) 268-2822

I see some members will call CVS, Rite Aid, Costco, Walgreen's, to get the price for 5 pens
@kitten68
 
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kitten68 said:
another good thing about Lantus is that the pens don't need refrigeration? i
Click to expand...
They need to be kept in the fridge
The pens are good for much longer than the 28 days. That number is for people who carry the pens around with them everywhere, like at work, in the car, in their purse, etc. As long as they're refrigerated they should be good until the expiration date on them
This was posted recently by one of our members
I just filled a script at Walmart tonight for brand name Lantus, 5 pens, for $35 with the GoodRX discount code. Cash price would have been around $115 without discount. And yes, it was clearly for a cat. :cat:

Make sure the vet specifies that you want the insulin pens (rather than the insulin vial). My vet simply wrote “pens or vial” on the prescription so I could get either—and then of course you simply ask for the pens (Lantus “Solostar pens” is what they’re called, in case you hear that term) at the pharmacy.

Also, the pharmacist will likely try to give you the “pen needles.” You don’t need them, so just politely decline. They’re used when administering insulin with the pen device but you’ll be using insulin syringes to draw the insulin from the pens.

@kitten68
 
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ty all so much!! appreciate it a lot.. he's back down to low 200s in the evening (! 225/199 :D) and trying to determine what dose to give considering.. supposed to be 1.5 U, vet suggested 1 U (as did i).. thinking should be ok. but if anyone can answer plz lmk (also posted another thread). tysm for Lantus info!!! WILL look over better when get a chance..
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
The information on dosing is in the Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin/Vetsulin. There's a section that's titled, "Dosing with Caninsulin/Vetsulin." the section is broken down into subsections on key terms, starting dose, changing the dose, general guidelines, and important and helpful hints. The general guidelines section tells you when to increase or decrease the dose.

It's not problematic to get Lantus/glargine for your cat. Some pharmacies are difficult if you want to use a coupon for a cat. Just say it's for your kid. You can't say it's for you since if you have insurance, it's a problem. Likewise, the vet isn't going to give you a prescription with your name on it. The issue is that Lantus/glargine does not have an indication for cats despite the amount of research and recommendations from veterinary associations. As a result, the drug company may not provide financial support back to the pharmacies if they are aware that the insulin is being. used off label. Some of those restrictions may have eased up but better to not get a very expensive bill for Pudge's insulin if you can avoid it.

You don't do anything with a bounce. It's a normal response to numbers dropping lower than what your cat is used to. The liver and pancreas go into protective mode by releasing a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones. These cause numbers to spike upward. It also can take up to 3 days for the the bounce to clear. Bounces will start to lessen in frequency and clear more quickly as Pudge gets used to being in normal range numbers.

We increase in 0.25u increments for a couple of reasons. By increasing in a small amount you don't go sailing past what would be a good dose for your cat. In a similar vein, you limit the possibility of overdosing your cat. Consider that increasing by 1.0u is four times as large of an increase than what we suggest. That may be trivial in a human but cats are small animals. We refer to the dosing method as Start Low Go Slow for a reason! We also reduce doses by 0.25u. The rationale is that you want to provide support for a healing pancreas for as long as possible.

There are no syringes that are manufactured with 0.25u markings. The best that's available are syringes with half unit increments. It's dumb. Even with infants, you'd want to increase in small amount so who knows why syringes in smaller increments are not manufactured.
Click to expand...
yess been reading back up on everything again.. just admit I feel overwhelmed by it; trying to integrate everything so far and things finally settling into the changes of how things are rn.. I did look over that again. last night he was 212/199.. tested again +20 min and then saw 239.. but not sure if angry/stress induced cause he was delayed getting his food cause of it.. thus reduced his dose by not giving the .5 (just got 1 U).. not sure if was right, but did come to forum and didn't get any answers and vet said to do so, I though it good to try.. but by hour 7-8 his insulin had burned through.. what to do in instances like that? is still over 200 (212) so probably was fine to have given the 1.5 U? (it's now 2 in the AM, 1.5 U PM.. my syringes don't have 1/2 units.. doing best atm..) idk.. im discouraged half the time. really thinking of buying the Lantus and starting next week. idk. could use some advice on dosage from that ~ since understand you're to maybe decrease, but not start from scratch either (?)

thanks so much for the info.. called a few places and I was told its np to get Lantus.. but will keep in mind to be careful. if im honest feeling emotionally exhausted but trying to read through the Lantus protocols... understand as well w the bounce; yup.. is just something that happens.. and it is supremely dumb about syringes not coming in .25 increments.. terrible.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
They need to be kept in the fridge
The pens are good for much longer than the 28 days. That number is for people who carry the pens around with them everywhere, like at work, in the car, in their purse, etc. As long as they're refrigerated they should be good until the expiration date on them
This was posted recently by one of our members
I just filled a script at Walmart tonight for brand name Lantus, 5 pens, for $35 with the GoodRX discount code. Cash price would have been around $115 without discount. And yes, it was clearly for a cat. :cat:

Make sure the vet specifies that you want the insulin pens (rather than the insulin vial). My vet simply wrote “pens or vial” on the prescription so I could get either—and then of course you simply ask for the pens (Lantus “Solostar pens” is what they’re called, in case you hear that term) at the pharmacy.

Also, the pharmacist will likely try to give you the “pen needles.” You don’t need them, so just politely decline. They’re used when administering insulin with the pen device but you’ll be using insulin syringes to draw the insulin from the pens.

@kitten68
Click to expand...
THANK YOU SO SO MUCH for the info, advice, and tips.. will definitely be following BOTH coupons (haha) and also replying to both your msgs here. :) great to hear it's $35 rn.. tyyy!!! probably should jump on it very soon. *cries in unused Vetsulin and U40 syringes... YES PLZ on syringes, where to get them?? I understand Walmart and Costco can provide syringes but need the 1/2 unit markings right.. also think (might've been you, not sure!) but someone gave me a link in one of my other threads for syringes on Amazon.. but its preferred to just pick em up if can. maybe can call around, but plz lmk the places you know. lovely if Walmart has em.. got a quote for $12 buck 50 for 100.. im getting that script tmw. :D this furry baby needs to feel better as soon as possible.. o_O and know its the superior insulin. im nervous about changing it tho cause I need to commit now to memory a new insulin mechanism.. but am doing my best. :)

ALSO what im seeing coupons for is brand name Lantus.. not generic. this cool?
 
kitten68 said:
YES PLZ on syringes, where to get them?? I understand Walmart and Costco can provide syringes but need the 1/2 unit markings right.. also think (might've been you, not sure!) but someone gave me a link in one of my other threads for syringes on Amazon.. but its preferred to just pick em up if can. maybe can call around, but plz lmk the places you know. lovely if Walmart has em.. got a quote for $12 buck 50 for 100.. im getting that script tmw. :D t
Click to expand...

@kitten68
Either of these 2 boxes are the ones you want (with a purple stripe) from Walmart if you switch to Lantus
upload_2024-4-22_23-37-23-jpeg.69946



These were the ones from Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/UltiCare-31-Gauge-Veterinary-Insulin-Syringes/dp/B009LTE0DO
 
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kitten68 said:
im discouraged half the time. really thinking of buying the Lantus and starting next week. idk. could use some advice on dosage from that ~ since understand you're to maybe decrease, but not start from scratch either (?)
Click to expand...
If you do get the Lantus ,I would post and ask what dose to give Pudge
Maybe the day before you start it
Put a ? In your title and put something like this
? Pudge switching from Vetsulin to Lantus Need Advice On Dose
Then you can go into detail where you would write .
I don't give dosing advice but I'll keep a look out for your list and if no one answers you I will tag some experienced members for you
Just tag me
If you do switch to lantus a few things will need to be changed in your signature and spreadsheet. I can help you with that when the time comes and show you how to post on the Lantus board and link your previous days post to the new one
@kitten68

While Pudge is still on Vetsulin if you need any help I would tag @Suzanne & Darcy she is familiar with Vetsulin
 
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kitten68 said:
but not sure if angry/stress induced cause he was delayed getting his food cause of it.. thus reduced his dose by not giving the .5 (just got 1 U).. not sure if was right, but did come to forum and didn't get any answers a
Click to expand...
Sorry no one answered you ,I just saw where you posted it again
Like I said tag Suzanne and also post on the Vetsulin board, Suzanne will usually get an alert in her e mails
If not I can private message her for you
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
If you do get the Lantus ,I would post and ask what dose to give Pudge
Maybe the day before you start it
Put a ? In your title and put something like this
? Pudge switching from Vetsulin to Lantus Need Advice On Dose
Then you can go into detail where you would write .
I don't give dosing advice but I'll keep a look out for your list and if no one answers you I will tag some experienced members for you
Just tag me
If you do switch to lantus a few things will need to be changed in your signature and spreadsheet. I can help you with that when the time comes and show you how to post on the Lantus board and link your previous days post to the new one
@kitten68

While Pudge is still on Vetsulin if you need any help I would tag @Suzanne & Darcy she is familiar with Vetsulin
Click to expand...
I thought this too.. get a head start and post ahead of time to give some time for responses, if any.. thanks for the advices! :) will refer back here.. he's been on the Vetsulin a little over 4.5 weeks.. ugh.. maybe Ill do it now/tmw and then try again/tag who need to if don't hear anything.. and ty for the SS help!! oh boy.. more reading and learning.. but im also excited cause everyone says how Lantus (or ProZinc.. Levemir.. think?) are the ones to go with.. shrug. :cat: also, hearing prior to opening need to be refrigerated (Lantus pens), but not necessarily after opening, can stay out; any thoughts on this? and thanks about date! great to hear.. lasts until that time (exp.)
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Sorry no one answered you ,I just saw where you posted it again
Like I said tag Suzanne and also post on the Vetsulin board, Suzanne will usually get an alert in her e mails
If not I can private message her for you
Click to expand...
lol that's ok.. eh. realize sometimes answers take time, or get overlooked, or, yeah lol.. went with just 1.. and honestly he burned through it (?).. started rising by hour 7.. :\ was a bit disconcerting. also trying to still learn the ways to use the board.. there's a Vetsulin group.. should go in there for the time being too.. thanks! and will try to remember :)
 
kitten68 said:
hearing prior to opening need to be refrigerated (Lantus pens), but not necessarily after opening, can stay out; any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
@kitten68
Even after opening they need to be kept in the fridge middle shelf.
I think you will like lantus a lot, My Tyler was on it, he's been in remission for 3 years and 3 months now. Knock on wood
If it wasn't for the experienced members here giving me their advice and me taking it I truly believe Tyler wouldn't be in remission today
By the way can I ask you your name ?
Do you have a pic of Pudge?
go to the top of your name and tap on it ,a drop down will appear ,tap on Avatar and add his pic

If you look under your user name at the top right of this page you will see avatar. Click on that and it will give you instructions.
 
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kitten68 said:
there's a Vetsulin group.. should go in there for the time being too.. thanks! and will try to remember :)
Click to expand...
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/caninsulin-vetsulin-and-n-nph.19/

Yes but I changed my mind keep posting on the Feline Health Main Board like you've been doing :cat:
@kitten68
By the way I asked Suzanne to take a look at your spreadsheet and see if she has any advice .
I know you don't have the U-40 syringes with half unit markings ,don't know if you want to order some now since you are planning to switch to lantus

If you want to you can get these from amazon without a vets script
https://www.amazon.com/UltiCare-Insulin-Syringes-12-7mm-Markings/dp/B08HX9BPH7

Here's cheaper ones but you will need a script, just call them ,tell them which ones you want and they will contact your vet to fax over a script. They are nice to deal with and are pretty fast with shipping
https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product...avejS4DtNc5Cuw3vgZsjQIqTE_AQpgvUaAu12EALw_wcB

Give them this code if you order them
adw-coupon-dia10.jpg

10% off your next order!

@kitten68
 
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Diane Tyler's Mom said:
You can't order them on line ,you have to go into the store
@kitten68
Click to expand...
tysm for everything.. appreciate it sm :) and ooh yes right just was checking online if local stores have them cause they'll show stock, etc. but not seeing it.. will check when I go to get more strips.. (need more strips..) how much do they go for generally if you might know? and I see!! was talking to a pharmacist and she mentioned to me they don't have to be; the reason I ask is just cause my fridge runs pretty cold.. its a lovely older fridge and I just don't mess w temp.. just leave it. so runs below what was suggested for Vetsulin,, but been keeping it on the door (know not supposed to..) but did check a few times w my thermometer and was ok in there. but lmk for the time being what you might think on this.. :woot:o_O.. hear as long as its not frozen its ok (?).....

I think so too! I hear such great things.. and want Pudgles feeling better as soon as possible.. noting a bit of improvement.. but its slow going; just hear so many things about Vetsulin just sucking.. levels everywhere, short acting, tho some have had a lot of success, idk.. so THANKFUL your sharing w me that its also going for a great price rn, think I really need to jump on it.. feel a little overwhelmed how to go about it tho but assuming the best without a hitch (btw, how do you DM on here? is there a way to private msg? :))

ok! will continue what doing :cat::cat: tysm for asking her!and TYYY!! saw that company online (ADW) but wasn't sure about them.. haha. definitely will look into syringes.. :) do you by chance know how much shipping generally runs? (will just be buying syringes.. hm website says $4.95 for shipping under 1 lb.. like ok lol)

will be reading up on Lantus this weekend.. also, when spoke to vet, they said if we change a curve needs to be done where he stays there.. so they can determine dosage on new insulin.. are you at all familiar w this? that happened w Vetsulin, too. The forum just said they'd help w that, etc. but idk :woot:.. shrug.
 
kitten68 said:
was talking to a pharmacist and she mentioned to me they don't have to be; the reason I ask is just cause my fridge runs pretty cold.. its a lovely older fridge and I just don't mess w temp.. just leave it. so runs below what was suggested for Vetsulin,, but been keeping it on the door (know not supposed to..) but did check a few times w my thermometer and was ok in there. but lmk for the time being what you might think on this.. :woot:o_O.. hear as long as its not frozen its ok (?).....
Click to expand...
The pharmacist is wrong, you need to keep the lantus pens in the fridge
@kitten68
 
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kitten68 said:
btw, how do you DM on here? is there a way to private msg? :))
Click to expand...
You would tap on the member you want to private message then tap on start a conversation
@kitten68
If it's for dosing advice they want you to ask it on your thread , it's an open forum so other members can also give advice or for anything else. You can private message and ask them to take a look at your spreadsheet.
 
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kitten68 said:
will be reading up on Lantus this weekend.. also, when spoke to vet, they said if we change a curve needs to be done where he stays there.. so they can determine dosage on new insulin.. are you at all familiar w this? that happened w Vetsulin, too. The forum just said they'd help w that, etc. but idk :woot:.. shrug.
Click to expand...
I would ask the experts here , you can do your own curve yourself, cats get stressed at the vets
@kitten68
 
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Diane Tyler's Mom said:
I would ask the experts here , you can do your own curve yourself, cats get stressed at the vets
@Mazi's Mom
Click to expand...
noo just need to buy MORE ReliOn ones.. :cat::cat::cat: running out.. been doing a lot of testing. :/ gonna see if I can peruse them syringes too while there. :smuggrin: going to refrain from so much.. will do some, but not as much.. need break. but will make sure to try to get nadir peak.. (PS obviously..) I think everything is worth a shot.. gonna see.

and mm! so conversations are only between participants?? :) just found it.. had to look for it.. and did put up a thread for dosing advice, seen you there too tysm *cries :woot::woot:

and sounds good.. maybe can. will talk to vet. :) they sure do.. I know mine does. :confused:

and will definitely keep in fridge, try middle shelf.. even tho its cold cold?... :/
 
kitten68 said:
noo just need to buy MORE ReliOn ones.. :cat::cat::cat: running out.. been doing a lot of testing. :/ gonna see if I can peruse them syringes too while there. :smuggrin: going to refrain from so much.. will do some, but not as much.. need break. but will make sure to try to get nadir peak.. (PS obviously..) I think everything is worth a shot.. gonna see.

and mm! so conversations are only between participants?? :) just found it.. had to look for it.. and did put up a thread for dosing advice, seen you there too tysm *cries :woot::woot:

and sounds good.. maybe can. will talk to vet. :) they sure do.. I know mine does. :confused:

and will definitely keep in fridge, try middle shelf.. even tho its cold cold?... :/
Click to expand...
Then just keep them in the middle shelf closest to the door when it's shut, not exactly in the middle of the middle shelf
@kitten68
 
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
I think it looks like you are doing great so far. You are also seeing some blue numbers so that is very encouraging. When do you think you will begin the Lantus/glargine?
Click to expand...
.. really?? thanks much.. that is really nice to hear. :cat: cuz last night was rough.. dose didnt hold great and he was unhappy. he takes less at night tho. will say too.. that sometimes is staying in the lowish 200s for some hours at a time… and later hours too now, least during the day. shouldnt stay on Vetsulin tho right, despite this? was thinking to start (Lantus) this week.. wanting to pick up meds maybe today/tmw.. :bookworm: testing out my fridge temp atm..

@Suzanne & Darcy :cat::cat:
 
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It looks like you need to stick with the 2 units both morning and evening. When you have shot only 1.5 in the evening (with a yellow PMPS test) Pudgie has stayed too high. Is this your main thread? It’s going to be too hard to keep up with what’s going on if there are multiple threads that people are posting on at the same time.
 
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