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RavenMystic

RavenMystic

Member Since 2021
Hello, my name is Sue Lynch, I go by RavenMystic here and on Tiktok if anyone wants to look for me. I have an 8 yr old cat, that I took in from living off the streets when he was approximately 6 months old, (someone threw him out of their car in front of my apt.) Last year we noticed that he was getting really thin, wasn't eating very well, and he was peeing alot. So I took him to my vet, and they immediately told me he had Diabetes. Change his diet, use either Hills Science Diet, or Purina Pro Plan. He gets 4 units of insulin in the morning around 7:30 am, then they told us he was allowed to have 1/2 a cup of Hills Science diet adult dry or Purina Pro Plan adult formula, and it can be left out until you feed him in the after noon, then he can have another 1/2 cup after dinner(also they allow him to get 3 treats after his shot, that's probably not what they want, but they didn't tell me otherwise.) Now what I'm concerned about is last time I was in the vets, his numbers were a little high they said(never told me what the numbers were), they wanted to put him on the more expensive diabetic cat food(which I can not afford atm, its hard enough tryin to keep him in what we have now..) I'm getting really anxious about all this its driving me crazy that they can't get his numbers under control.. I do not understand anything about Diabetes in cats.. a kind soul off of TikTok that I follow, told me about this message board.(his cat is Mogee), If someone would please help me understand all this I'd be SO dang grateful!!

RavenMystic
 
Welcome to the FDMB!

Successful treatment of diabetes has three main steps.

The first is diet. A diabetic cat needs to be eating a low carb canned or raw diet. You don't need any special "prescription" foods either! There's nothing magic about them that treats diabetes. Many of them are too high in carbs (especially the dry ones!), and the ingredients tend to be low quality, too! Most of us feed our own cats Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies pates or 9-Lives ground because they get less than 10% of their calories from carbs. They are also easy to find and affordable.
Changing to a low carb canned or raw diet can be enough for some lucky cats to become regulated but if you're already giving insulin, it's important to do it slowly and be home testing often because reducing the carbs in the diet can drastically reduce the need for insulin.

Next is insulin. There are some insulins that are much better than others in cats. Lantus, Basaglar, Levemir and ProZinc are the gentlest and most successful at getting them regulated and even possibly into remission! They are pricey, but we know the best places to buy them to make them quite affordable!

A lot of vets are still using Vetsulin because it's what they're used to but it's really a better insulin for dogs. In cats, it tends to hit hard and fast and then wear off before the next shot is due. Vets see more diabetic dogs than cats and tend to try to treat their feline patients like small dogs and it just doesn't usually work very well.

No matter what insulin you use, the one thing we do see here too often is vets that start at too high a dose and then increase too much, too quickly. Most cats should start at between 0.5 and 1 unit twice a day and increases should be done in .25 to 0.5 unit increments.
4 units is a HUGE amount of insulin. Most cats never need more than about 3 unless they have a high dose condition like acromegaly or IAA.


Last, and not least, is home testing. Many vets don't even discuss this with their clients, for varying reasons, but if you had a diabetic child, you would test their blood sugar before every shot, and we should do the same for our furkids. Also, testing done at the vet's office can be unreliable due to stress, which can significantly raise the BG. By testing at home, you get more accurate results.

Most of us use a human meter from your local pharmacy because it's accurate and affordable to use. A favorite here in the US is the Relion Premier Classic from WalMart. The meter is only $9 and the strips are $17.88 for 100.

There are "pet" meters, but the strips for them are about $1.00 EACH which is too much for most of us when we test at least 4 times a day (more if they're running low or dropping fast)
Testing before every shot, you make sure it's safe to give insulin at all. By testing in between shots, you learn how the blood sugars are responding to treatment.

If I were you, the first thing I'd do is get a blood glucose meter and learn to home test. Then, get rid of the "prescription" foods and any type of kibble. You're probably going to need to reduce the dose considerably when you do the diet change.

You're in the best place you never wanted to be now and there's lots of experienced people here to help you.
 
Here is the link to set up the spreadsheet we use to track our cats BG numbers to see how the insulin is working and how low it's dropping
If you have trouble setting it up let us know, we have a member who will set it up for you, this link will also explain how it works
17.88 for 100 test strips
You will need 26 or 28 gauge lancets to prick his ear
Cotton rounds
Link
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
 
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Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up
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6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand
I find it better to see where I'm aiming

Here is a video one of our members did
VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar
 
Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom<< I am at a loss as to what this means.. He's on SemGlee generic of Lantus Also I am not sure how to set up the spreadsheet.. I would not mind someone helping me with that. Man this is all new learning all this is just making my mind go bonkers. LOL
 
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Chris will set up your signature and spreadsheet for you you
She will contact you look for her message in the inbox
Are you giving lantus twice a day?
You said in your post he gets 4 units in the morning at 7:30 AM
Like Chris mentioned that's a huge amount of insulin
I assume you are not home testing yet is this correct?
Are you going to go and buy the Relion Prime or Premier Meter at Walmart?
Have you read everything that Chris & China posted above,when you read a post from someone can you please tap the like word to the right so we know you have read it

Do you use the U-100 syringes with half unit markings, we increase or decrease by 0.25 units
Not whole units
 
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Lantus works best if the same amount is given both day and night
So 7.5 units total correct that's a lot of insulin
Once you start home testing and start to enter Gustav's BG in the spreadsheet we can help you sort thing out
Did you look for Chris's private message ,she will set your signature up and spreadsheet
Do you use the U-100 syringes with half unit markings, we increase or decrease by 0.25 units
Not whole units
 
@Chris & China (GA)

Hey Chris we mentioned to Sue that
4 units is a HUGE amount of insulin. Most cats never need more than about 3 unless they have a high dose condition like acromegaly or IAA.
Well her cat is getting 4 units in the AM and 3.5 at night
See #12 that's really a lot
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
@Chris & China (GA)

Hey Chris we mentioned to Sue that
4 units is a HUGE amount of insulin. Most cats never need more than about 3 unless they have a high dose condition like acromegaly or IAA.
Well her cat is getting 4 units in the AM and 3.5 at night
See #12 that's really a lot
Click to expand...


Yes I received the PM and msged them back. Our Vet pushed him up to those units last month.. He has another appointment on Monday to see them. I am kind of worried though if I were to take him off of the dry, he wouldn't be up to doing much of anything.. and if I were to try and leave wet food out all day it wouldn't last for long he'd eat it up in a matter of minutes after putting it down.
 
RavenMystic said:
Yes I received the PM and msged them back. Our Vet pushed him up to those units last month.. He has another appointment on Monday to see them. I am kind of worried though if I were to take him off of the dry, he wouldn't be up to doing much of anything.. and if I were to try and leave wet food out all day it wouldn't last for long he'd eat it up in a matter of minutes after putting it down.
Click to expand...
I don't know what you mean when you say if you were to take him off the dry he wouldn't be up to doing much of anything.
If the kibble is Purina Pro Plan DM, it's about 18% carbs carbs. its too high in carbs we like to stay under 10% carbs preferably 5 or under
Hills Science diet adult dry is about 38 % carbs
You can always get an auto feeder and put wet cat food in it and set it to open at certain times

Like Chris noted
Changing to a low carb canned or raw diet can be enough for some lucky cats to become regulated but if you're already giving insulin, it's important to do it slowly and be home testing often because reducing the carbs in the diet can drastically reduce the need for insulin.


https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/transitioning-your-cat-from-dry-to-wet-food.956/
reducing the carb load can often lead to a significant drop in overall BG levels in a short space of time so BG levels need to be closely monitored during the transition and the insulin dose reduced as required (to avoid the cat from becoming hypoglycemic


If you don't want to switch to low carb wet food here are some dry foods that are lower carbs than what you are feeding now
Young Again Zero, Dr. Elsey’s Cleanprotein (chicken flavour) and Wysong Epigen 90 are all 5% carbs
 
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RavenMystic said:
if I were to try and leave wet food out all day it wouldn't last for long he'd eat it up in a matter of minutes after putting it down.
Click to expand...

If he's the type of cat to eat everything in front of him, you could use an auto-feeder like the Cat Mate c500. You can program it to open and offer him a fresh meal several times during the day and then have it rotate to an empty space at least 2 hours before his next shot time (so that when you test, you get a result that's not influenced by food)

It's also great for kitties who like to wake people up at 3am to let them know they're starving to death and won't make it until breakfast....LOL
 
@Chris & China (GA)

Hey Chris we mentioned to Sue that
4 units is a HUGE amount of insulin. Most cats never need more than about 3 unless they have a high dose condition like acromegaly or IAA.
Well her cat is getting 4 units in the AM and 3.5 at night wow
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Hey Chris we mentioned to Sue that
4 units is a HUGE amount of insulin. Most cats never need more than about 3 unless they have a high dose condition like acromegaly or IAA.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know. I was the first one to say that.

@RavenMystic What dose did your vet start at? Was it 4U? Or did you start at a lower dose and work your way up? If so, how? (by going from 1u to 2u to 3u etc. or how?)
 
Chris & China (GA) said:
Yes, I know. I was the first one to say that.

@RavenMystic What dose did your vet start at? Was it 4U? Or did you start at a lower dose and work your way up? If so, how? (by going from 1u to 2u to 3u etc. or how?)
Click to expand...
Yes I know it was you that said that I copied it :p
Well her cat is getting 4 units in the AM and 3.5 at night wow she said it in post #12
Did you see this
@Chris & China (GA)
 
Yes, I saw it....I also saw you tell her that insulin works best when given at the same dose both AM and PM so I didn't think it would add anything for me to repeat it.

But just in case! @RavenMystic ....Semglee is a depot insulin and really needs to be given at the same dose both AM and PM. Otherwise, the depot never gets a chance to settle and you end up with wonky numbers.

The depot is kind of like "timed release" so you want it to be a stable amount so it's "releasing" the same amount all the time. Every time you change the dose, it can take up to 6 cycles for the depot to stabilize again which is one of the reasons we tell people who are doing Tight Regulation to wait at least 6 cycles before they consider a dose increase.

On Start Low, Go Slow, you hold the same dose for at least 7 days so it's not as big a deal, but it's still important to know that for those first 6 cycles after an increase, you can get some wonky numbers because the depot has to stabilize first and then be ready to "release" the right amount.
 
Chris & China (GA) said:
@RavenMystic What dose did your vet start at? Was it 4U? Or did you start at a lower dose and work your way up? If so, how? (by going from 1u to 2u to 3u etc. or how?)
Click to expand...


they started him at .5 units and have gone up from there .5..
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
I don't know what you mean when you say if you were to take him off the dry he wouldn't be up to doing much of anything.
If the kibble is Purina Pro Plan DM, it's about 18% carbs carbs. its too high in carbs we like to stay under 10% carbs preferably 5 or under
Hills Science diet adult dry is about 38 % carbs
You can always get an auto feeder and put wet cat food in it and set it to open at certain times

Like Chris noted
Changing to a low carb canned or raw diet can be enough for some lucky cats to become regulated but if you're already giving insulin, it's important to do it slowly and be home testing often because reducing the carbs in the diet can drastically reduce the need for insulin.
Click to expand...

His vet "suggested" that we use the Purina Pro plan wet and dry food or Hills Science diet or Royal Canin wet/dry food.. For some reason our PetSmart doesn't carry the Royal Canin dry(i could only find it online) So I am at a loss as to why they suggested this food if its so high in carbs.. but they might have done it at the time because he had lost almost 4 pounds in a matter of a few months(no idea why that happened) but he's since gotten back to where he was with this food and how we've been feeding him..
 
RavenMystic said:
His vet "suggested" that we use the Purina Pro plan wet and dry food or Hills Science diet or Royal Canin wet/dry food.. For some reason our PetSmart doesn't carry the Royal Canin dry(i could only find it online) So I am at a loss as to why they suggested this food if its so high in carbs..
Click to expand...

The simple answer is because vets get little to no education on nutrition when in school. If there is a class offered (and it's usually just a single class, not a full credit course), it's paid for by the "prescription" food manufacturers.

It's supposed to be getting better but even now that more focus is being put on nutrition, the pet food industry still has a heavy hand in what's taught.

There's a pretty good article HERE on what's really in those "prescription" foods.

Also, Dr. Lisa, who provided us with this massive food chart and the nutritional breakdown of those foods has a page on her website on Prescription Diets. My favorite quote is:

‘Prescription Diet’ trademark – marketing tool creates false perception

As an example of the serious lack of regulatory oversight, Hill’s secured trademark status for the term “prescription diet” in 1990 thus reinforcing the perception that, like prescription medications, their diets are subject to intense scrutiny and testing. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

There is a strong argument to be made that no trademark protection should be granted for any marketing label containing the word “prescription” given the strong potential to seduce the buyers of these products into a false sense of security growing out of the assumption that anything labeled “prescription” has been put through multiple layers of regulatory and testing paces.

If any product – including food – is allowed to carry a “prescription” label, it needs to be held to the same standards as a prescription medication. Otherwise, the word “prescription” becomes no more than a marketing label, and as such, should hold no more credibility than any other marketing slogan.

To quote the FDA/CVM Communications Staff Deputy Director:

“‘Prescription diet’ is an industry-coined term and holds no legal meaning.”

In other words, these diets contain no ingredient that actually requires a prescription. The trademarked term “prescription diet” is simply a clever marketing tool between Hill’s and veterinarians. The sale of these diets is restricted (by Hill’s, not by law) to veterinarians only. In return, Hill’s enjoys a boost in perception of quality brought about by this profession’s endorsement of their products. However, this perception of quality is undeserved and this incestuous relationship jeopardizes the integrity of our profession.

End excerpt
Click to expand...

It's a lot easier for a vet to just advise the client to use one of the "alphabet" diets than to take the time to really explain the importance of nutrition in disease treatment. (and they may not really know the importance of nutrition in the first place).

This isn't a slam on your vet. They may be a wonderful and caring person. It's just that vet schools only have 4 years to teach everything so they can't spend 2 weeks on each different disease, the difference in treatments for that disease depending on the species, etc. We've heard from one of the top vets in the treatment of feline diabetes that he got less than a day of education on diabetes in school and that covered all types of animals. Our vets are like GP's...they know a little about most things, but your doctor would send you to an endocrinologist for diabetes if you were diagnosed with it where you'd get more up to date information.

This board has been helping diabetic cat caretakers for 25 years. The people here come from all walks of life but there are doctors, researchers, chemists and even a few vets occasionally. We have the time to research on the latest treatments out there as well as the day to day experience in what works...and what doesn't.
 
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Diane Tyler's Mom said:
@RavenMystic
Hi Sue I see your spreadsheet is set up, have you been doing any tests yet so you can enter them on your spreadsheet?
Click to expand...

not as of yet. when I mentioned to my vet that I wanted to home test Gustav, they told me I needed to bring in my meter so they can test it along side theirs to make sure that it would give the best results.. When I asked them what are safe levels for Gustav, they told me I needed to wait on that till they see his meter in 2 months.. so I guess I'm in a waiting game n such..
 
So you have no idea what his BG is or how the insulin is working for him and how low he's dropping. You don't need permission from your vet to home test.
How many units is he on now

I see you have the Relion Premier human meter which almost most of us use.
Our numbers are based on human meters
Most likely your vet is using a pet meter , probably the Alpha Trak .
The test strips for that are not cheap about 54.00 for 50 strips

Your meter is not going to match up with your vets if he's using a pet meter.
Human meters read lower. Before they came out with pet meters human meters were used.
Your vet is probably going to tell you to use a pet meter.
It's your choice if you can afford the price for test strips

Not knowing what your cats BG is before giving insulin is dangerous. You have no idea if his BG is too low to shoot

The members here are very experienced and knowledgeable and in my opinion
know more about diabetes than most vets do
They have helped me get Tyler into remission


https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
 
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