? is this bad vet care?

[rainbow1111]

a brief summary

hello everyone,new here. about a week ago tavros was diagnosed with diabetes and a few weeks prior the worst case of pancreatitis theyve ever seen (their words)and an enlarged kidney. his kidney has gotten a lot better and hes gaining weight back,(still dealing with the pancreatitis and his blood sugars are in the 400's. he is feeling a whole lot better but still recovering.

he is on prescription wet food,royal canine rabbit,and is getting 1 unit of insulin at 10 am and one unit of insulin at 8pm.

okay so to the point and reason for my question:

the care we have been getting from our vet has been extremely inconsistent.

the owner,kim has been 100% helpful in every way,but shes on her 2nd weeklong vacation within just weeks.

kim has admitted shes still training her staff,and everyone but her has been awful and heres why:

1.giving us very bad food reccomendations multiple times (extremely crucial atm),
2.not reccomending and prescriping him medication because kim wasnt there.
3. not as big of a deal but unprofessional,today the vet tech almost gave me a heart attack because she gave me false blood sugar numbers and told me he went from the 400's to 500's until she went back to check and make sure they were right. (they are still in the 400's)

and 4.,the reason i am asking this question: after his blood sugar readings,hes still in the 400's and his blood sugar has only gone down by 60 in a week. (which from their reaction,is very slow and not good enough?)

they want to have him in for 8 hours to do the "the curve" and test his blood sugars every 2 hours in a week (monday) and they said they won't up his insulin dosage or prescribe anything until after they do this test in a week.
kim had mentioned this test a week ago when we started insulin,but said we would bring him in to do this test a month after he started insulin but it hasnt even been a week.

do they want to do it early because his sugars arent lowering fast enough? wouldnt they want him in for testing immediately if that were the case since they said they wont up the dosage until after this test? they said they want to make sure his sugars wont drop in the middle of the day and that is the reasoning for the test.

we also asked if we could do this at home,and they said no because they wanted to see him. he is difficult to get blood from but this still seemed odd and suspicious because he would be less stressed out at home and it would cost a lot more at the vet.


i don't know if this just seems suspicious and like bad vet care because of their bad track record,or what. me and my mother agreed that if it was kim who has given us this suggestion/plan,we would not hesitate.

it is mainly that his sugars are so high,why would they wait a week? seems like we could do this at home and it would stress him out less and not be so expensive. we absolutely do not mind paying for this IF this is what is best for him. he is hard to get bloodwork from so maybe that is why but it still seems suspicious.

they do specialize in cats,but the care is inconsistent,the only helpful person is never there,do you think we should search for a new vet or is this a paranoid overeaction?

we also think that the substitute doctormight have been in (they were saying the doctor was a he,but our cats doctor is a she) (hes not as good either) so im thinking about calling in the morning,seeing if it was just the substitute making a bad call. i really need to figure out what to do asap.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hi and welcome to you and Tavros.
Can you tell us what type of insulin you are giving please?
It is usual to give the insulin 12 hours apart, not 12 hours and 10 hours apart.

It is really important you have a vet you can trust and work with and one who understands feline diabetes. If you don’t feel this is the case, I would look for another one.

I would recommend you learn to home test the blood glucose levels. It is far safer for your kitty and will stress him a lot less and it will cost you a lot less. You will also know exactly what the dose of insulin is doing. The blood glucose levels change all the time and if you
get them done once in a while at the vet, there is no guarantee they will stay the same....In fact I can tell you they won’t stay the same.
I would buy a human glucose meter from Walmart or a pharmacy if you live in the US or a pharmacy if you live elsewhere.
Here is a link how to home test. We can help you. It is not hard, it won’t hurt Tavros and he won’t hate you!
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

I will give you the link to our spreadsheet where you can enter the data from the tests you get on the blood glucose. Once you have that up and running we can help you with dosing
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

With the food for a diabetic cat, a low carb diet is best...10% carbs or under. You don’t need to buy the expensive prescription food from the vet. I will give you a list so you can see what you can buy from the supermarket or pet store. As I don’t know what country you live in I will give you the whole list and you can choose.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/links-to-food-charts.174182/

I am going to give you one last link for new members. It has useful information for you. At the bottom is how to set up your signature which will appear at the bottom of your posts and will tell us about your kitty,
[url]https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/[/URL]

Keep asking questions, we are happy to help.
Bronhttps://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/links-to-food-charts.174182/

 

[JanetNJ]

do they want to do it early because his sugars arent lowering fast enough? wouldnt they want him in for testing immediately if that were the case since they said they wont up the dosage until after this test? they said they want to make sure his sugars wont drop in the middle of the day and that is the reasoning for the test.

we also asked if we could do this at home,and they said no because they wanted to see him. he is difficult to get blood from but this still seemed odd and suspicious because he would be less stressed out at home and it would cost a lot more at the vet.

First of all, Welcome!! I hope this forum will help you feel more at ease and teach you what you need to know to keep your fur baby healthy. I remember very clearly how overwhelmed I felt when my cat was first diagnosed, but the good news is it's very treatable, and they can live long healthy lives with diabetes. My cat was diagnosed 4 years ago so far.

I think when my cat was first diagnosed they did the first curve about two weeks after starting insulin. They had to give it a little time for her to get used to the insulin. Once I started testing at home I didn't bring her in for any more curves, I just emailed my vet the numbers. I did that for a few months but I rarely give her the numbers now since I manage all the dosing changes myself.

YOU absolutely can test at home! We always recommend it because 1. it is so much safer and you can stop hypos in their tracks. Testing has saved my cat's llife at least a dozen times over the last four years. 2. It's cheaper then frequent vet visits 3. it puts you in control to know if a dose is too much or too little 4. it's more accurate because their numbers are higher from stress at a vet's office.

I have a link to a video I made showing how I test my cat at home.

and 4.,the reason i am asking this question: after his blood sugar readings,hes still in the 400's and his blood sugar has only gone down by 60 in a week. (which from their reaction,is very slow and not good enough?)

I'm not sure what the carb percentage is in the royal canine food is. Is there gravy? A lot of the RC foods are a bit higher in carb. Bron gave you a link to a food list that's super helpful. Many on here feed fancy feast pate or friskies pate food. I feed weruva foods because it's also lower in phosperous for my cat's kidney's.

As far as the numbers... it's very likely you will need a dose increase... but I would say wait and test at home because the numbers might be falsely high because of vet stress which can raise the number 100+ points. Vets tend to raise doses very quicky... like in whole units. we always recommend raises in .25-.5 increments. What insulins are you using? If they perscribed Novolin, ask for a change to Prozinc or Lantus. Vetsulin is better then Novolin and works ok for some cats, my cat did ok on that originally, but many find it doesn't last long enough and is better for dogs.

It sounds like you don't trust this vet practice. The older I get the more I trust my gut. I don't know for sure from what you said if she's a good vet or not... I do like that she started you on the recommended starting dose of 1 unit. Some new folks to the forum have come in with crazy high starting doses of 4 and 5.

 

[rainbow1111]

Hi and welcome to you and Tavros.
Can you tell us what type of insulin you are giving please?
It is usual to give the insulin 12 hours apart, not 12 hours and 10 hours apart.

It is really important you have a vet you can trust and work with and one who understands feline diabetes. If you don’t feel this is the case, I would look for another one.

I would recommend you learn to home test the blood glucose levels. It is far safer for your kitty and will stress him a lot less and it will cost you a lot less. You will also know exactly what the dose of insulin is doing. The blood glucose levels change all the time and if you
get them done once in a while at the vet, there is no guarantee they will stay the same....In fact I can tell you they won’t stay the same.
I would buy a human glucose meter from Walmart or a pharmacy if you live in the US or a pharmacy if you live elsewhere.
Here is a link how to home test. We can help you. It is not hard, it won’t hurt Tavros and he won’t hate you!
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

I will give you the link to our spreadsheet where you can enter the data from the tests you get on the blood glucose. Once you have that up and running we can help you with dosing
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

With the food for a diabetic cat, a low carb diet is best...10% carbs or under. You don’t need to buy the expensive prescription food from the vet. I will give you a list so you can see what you can buy from the supermarket or pet store. As I don’t know what country you live in I will give you the whole list and you can choose.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/links-to-food-charts.174182/

I am going to give you one last link for new members. It has useful information for you. At the bottom is how to set up your signature which will appear at the bottom of your posts and will tell us about your kitty,
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

Keep asking questions, we are happy to help.
Bron

hey and thanks for the response,he is taking vetsulin. so 12 hours apart,so he should be getting his insulin at 12 am and 12pm? since i gave it to him yesterday at 8 am and 10pm and have been for awhile,would i just give it to him at 12 pm and 12 am today or do i need to do something so the change in time doesnt shock his system?

will be testing his blood sugars at home too,haven't started yet but will be doing so today. they said the best spot for him (hes hard to get blood out of,just like some humans have harder veins to get blood out of) was his back paw pads so if anyone who tests from there has tips on a good position for that spot i would appreciate it.

the vet people (kim,the one i trust from there) said not to change the doses of insulin without instructions from the vet,i had given him half a dose of 1 unit when he was eating but not much while panicking after initially getting his insulin when looking online/asking what my mother thought but she told me not to change the doses,and that if he doesnt eat enough to just not give him any insulin (hes been doing completely fine with eating enough two times a day though now,he had trouble adjusting to his new food at first.)

i will be considering changing his food,this food was reccomended by kim who i trust but i will research more about other options aswell. for now i am too scared to think as much about changing his food because hes been fine this week,but last week or the week before i cant remember,very sleep deprived.he had diarrhea and a little bit of vomiting. for a week while adjusting to new food and it was terrifying. i think it also had something to do with him eating only prescription dry food for awhile because it was all he would eat for a bit/very unfortunate timing around the 4th of july made things close down around us and then the weekend hit so we couldnt get a prescription to try another flavor of wet food for awhile. and the reason she reccomended this food i believe was for it to be easier on the stomach,she said because it is a new type of food that his something/stomach? would be able to process it easier. i do not know what information and food is best for him right now but thats all the information i have heard from the vet about the food that i can recall. i really appreciate the welcome

 

[rainbow1111]

First of all, Welcome!! I hope this forum will help you feel more at ease and teach you what you need to know to keep your fur baby healthy. I remember very clearly how overwhelmed I felt when my cat was first diagnosed, but the good news is it's very treatable, and they can live long healthy lives with diabetes. My cat was diagnosed 4 years ago so far.

I think when my cat was first diagnosed they did the first curve about two weeks after starting insulin. They had to give it a little time for her to get used to the insulin. Once I started testing at home I didn't bring her in for any more curves, I just emailed my vet the numbers. I did that for a few months but I rarely give her the numbers now since I manage all the dosing changes myself.

YOU absolutely can test at home! We always recommend it because 1. it is so much safer and you can stop hypos in their tracks. Testing has saved my cat's llife at least a dozen times over the last four years. 2. It's cheaper then frequent vet visits 3. it puts you in control to know if a dose is too much or too little 4. it's more accurate because their numbers are higher from stress at a vet's office.

I have a link to a video I made showing how I test my cat at home.


I'm not sure what the carb percentage is in the royal canine food is. Is there gravy? A lot of the RC foods are a bit higher in carb. Bron gave you a link to a food list that's super helpful. Many on here feed fancy feast pate or friskies pate food. I feed weruva foods because it's also lower in phosperous for my cat's kidney's.

As far as the numbers... it's very likely you will need a dose increase... but I would say wait and test at home because the numbers might be falsely high because of vet stress which can raise the number 100+ points. Vets tend to raise doses very quicky... like in whole units. we always recommend raises in .25-.5 increments. What insulins are you using? If they perscribed Novolin, ask for a change to Prozinc or Lantus. Vetsulin is better then Novolin and works ok for some cats, my cat did ok on that originally, but many find it doesn't last long enough and is better for dogs.

It sounds like you don't trust this vet practice. The older I get the more I trust my gut. I don't know for sure from what you said if she's a good vet or not... I do like that she started you on the recommended starting dose of 1 unit. Some new folks to the forum have come in with crazy high starting doses of 4 and 5.

thank you for the welcome,i will take a look at the video in a moment,have watched others already but can never get enough advice

it really helps eases me with the info you said about them doing the curve after two weeks because that would be two weeks from when he first started,so with this info i think i think i will make make the appointment if they insist on them doing is there instead of us doing it at home for some reason. it is really anxiety inducing and id rather do it at home but maybe since you took yours in the first few times its a normal procedure the first few times. maybe because his sugars are so high they dont want to leave it to noobies while hes higher risk?

but i do have questions:

did they want you to bring her in the first few times instead of testing her at home? like specifically did not want you to test at home the first few times? because they want us to take him in for the test,will be calling in again soon to ask more about that since my mother had to handle the conversation since i was napping from sleep deprivation.

these are the ingredients, from the chewey website

Water Sufficient for Processing, Rabbit, Rabbit Liver, Pea Flour, Vegetable Oil, Pea Protein, Natural Flavors, Fish Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Carrageenan, Calcium Sulfate, Taurine, Dl-Methionine, Cysteine, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Glycine, Choline Chloride, Vitamins [Dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Inositol, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C), D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement], Trace Minerals [Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite], Potassium Chloride, Marigold Extract (Tagetes Erecta L.).

with this additional info
RUDE PROTEIN 8.5% min
CRUDE FAT 4.5% min
CRUDE FIBER 1.0% max
MOISTURE 78.0% max

are any of these percentages indication of the carbs? i am still learning and do not know. i had trouble finding the amount of carbs and sugars in things in the friskies wet food we had him on prior,and only got ahold of a list of percentages for the carbs from my mothers friend who has a dog with diabetes,but i dont know how she got ahold of the percentages list.

i do not think it has gravy in it. it is pate. i believe the ones with gravy in it are the none pate wet foods,correct? thank you so much for your response

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I can’t answer all the questions now, I will later, but I just wanted to say not to swap over to a low carb diet until you are testing at home as the BGs can drop up to 100 points and you need to be testing the blood glucose to keep your kitty safe. You may need to reduce the insulin dose but you won’t know until you are home testing.
Yes insulin should be 12 hours apart. You can choose the times to suit you, but then stick to those times.
Are you feeding a meal 1/2 an hour before the insulin? also feeding snacks during the cycles is fine.
Here is Link to Vetsulin insulin
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/beginners-guide-to-caninsulin-vetsulin.231587/

 

[JanetNJ]

i think i think i will make make the appointment if they insist on them doing is there instead of us doing it at home for some reason. it is really anxiety inducing and id rather do it at home but maybe since you took yours in the first few times its a normal procedure the first few times. maybe because his sugars are so high they dont want to leave it to noobies while hes higher risk?

well, I did it because I didn't start testing until my cat was about 6 weeks into being diagnosed... so her first curve was done at the vet. The first couple weeks you are just learning to test it's not always easy to get readings. If you prefer to learn to do the curve at home though, it's totally your call.
Once I started testing her at home I didn't bring her into the vet for a year. I just occasionally sent my vet her numbers. She would give me her opinion but I mostly did it on my own after a few weeks.

OK THINK I DISCOVERED your problem with the food. Just looked up this specific one, and it's about 15% carb. I'm guessing the peas are doing you in. So you are going to want to switch foods. Is she eating rabbit because of food allergies? Or you just like this food? Don't raise your dose if you switch foods because getting on an appropriate diet is going to lower the bg numbers.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

I just want to say welcome and I’m glad you found us!!!

You already got amazing advice from Bron and Janet. I just want to say again that the insulin needs to be 12 hours apart, but that doesn’t mean 12am and 12pm. You can do 8am and 8pm or 7am and 7pm. Anytime what works best for you as long as you keep the shots 12 hours apart. Makes sense?

my vet asked me if I felt comfortable sound the curve at home and I was terrified but I learned how to test and did it. So my cat never had a curve done at the vet. I emailed her the results like Janet mentioned. Also with Vetsulin like Bron said, it’s really important that you feed 30 minutes before giving the insulin because it hits hard and fast. It’s also called caninsulin for canines because it was designed for dogs not cats. It’s no as gentle and long lasting liken Lantus or prozync. I have to be honest that I think it’s odd that a practice you say especialize in cats would prescribe an insulin made for dogs. I’d say that’s a big red flag for me because usually vets who treat more dogs are the ones that prescribe Vetsulin for cats. Do a quick google search and you’ll see a ton of articles saying that Vetsulin is not as efficient in cats who have higher metabolisms than dogs. I actually did that because a friend’s dog was diagnosed with diabetes around the same time as Minnie was and he mentioned how much cheaper Vetsulin was, but when I looked it up I found a lot of articles saying it was not the best insulin for cats.

If you’re in the US, most of us feed our cats fancy feast pate which has less than 10% carbs in it.

welcome again!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Welcome to FDMB.

The Royal Canin is approximately 15% carb - I'm presuming this is a prescription food.. We generally recommend a low carbohydrate diet -- less than 10%. This is a large chart that contains the nutritional content of most of the canned foods that are around. You have lots of options. FWIW, most people here feed somewhere around 5% carb.

I do have a couple of thoughts. First, Vetsulin is no longer recommended by the American Animal Hospital Association for the treatment of feline diabetes. It does not last 12 hour and it can cause numbers to rapidly drop.. Because it is so harsh, it's important that you start home testing. It's entirely possible that the snapshot you're seeing of your kitty's numbers isn't giving you the whole picture . High numbers can result if your cat's number actually drop lower and the. liver and pancreas release a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones. This causes the numbers to spike upward. If you aren't home testing, there's no way to know how low numbers have gone. If the only tests are at the vet's office, stress can cause numbers to be higher than what you would see at home. In addition, if your kitty is in the middle of one of those upward spikes (they can last around 3 days), the readings at the vet's office may be misleading.

The recommended types of insulin are Prozinc and Lantus. This is a link to the AAHA's Guidelines for Diabetes Management. You might want to share this information with your vet. If it were me, I'd want to be using either Lantus or Prozinc.

Most of us who have been here for a while get comfortable with managing our cat's diabetes. We collaborate with each other, use the dosing guidelines that are here, and adjust our cat's insulin dose independent of our vet. It's the same thing that human diabetics do. It does take some time to wrap your head around all of the information about FD -- it's completely overwhelming at first. But, it all becomes a routine. You'll be comfortable with testing, feeding, and dosing insulin in a remarkable short period of time. And, the people here are generous with their time and information and will be available to lend a hand.

 

[rainbow1111]

I can’t answer all the questions now, I will later, but I just wanted to say not to swap over to a low carb diet until you are testing at home as the BGs can drop up to 100 points and you need to be testing the blood glucose to keep your kitty safe. You may need to reduce the insulin dose but you won’t know until you are home testing.
Yes insulin should be 12 hours apart. You can choose the times to suit you, but then stick to those times.
Are you feeding a meal 1/2 an hour before the insulin? also feeding snacks during the cycles is fine.
Here is Link to Vetsulin insulin
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/beginners-guide-to-caninsulin-vetsulin.231587/

thanks so much for the help,i have him on a 10 am and 10pm schedule now. might change the schedule to 8 am and 8pm eventually but for now this works and im grateful i was informed about this,im sure the vet told me but theres been a lot of information overload.

i asked the vet if i should be feeding him a bit before the insulin and they said the way ive been doing that was instructed before (giving him his food with his insulin,making sure he starts eating it first) is fine,might be because its only 1 unit at a time at the moment,will make sure to re-ask this question when his insulin doseage is upped

and thanks for the info about not swapping over to a low carb diet until i start testing at home,i actually just learned that you need a cat blood sugar tester,and the human ones dont work the same so we just ordered one yesterday.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

The human glucose meter is just as good as the pet meter. Most of us use the human meter here. It is much cheaper to run

 

[rainbow1111]

well, I did it because I didn't start testing until my cat was about 6 weeks into being diagnosed... so her first curve was done at the vet. The first couple weeks you are just learning to test it's not always easy to get readings. If you prefer to learn to do the curve at home though, it's totally your call.
Once I started testing her at home I didn't bring her into the vet for a year. I just occasionally sent my vet her numbers. She would give me her opinion but I mostly did it on my own after a few weeks.

OK THINK I DISCOVERED your problem with the food. Just looked up this specific one, and it's about 15% carb. I'm guessing the peas are doing you in. So you are going to want to switch foods. Is she eating rabbit because of food allergies? Or you just like this food? Don't raise your dose if you switch foods because getting on an appropriate diet is going to lower the bg numbers.

i managed to speak to a competent person at the vet and they said we can do the curve at home (thank god) what do you mean by "The first couple weeks you are just learning to test it's not always easy to get readings." do you just mean practice with getting the blood or is it possible to somehow mess up the readings?

gosh thank you so much for looking it up and finding the carb percentage for me. do you have advice on how you were able to look it up? looking up the carb and protein percentages can feel like looking for a needle in a haystack online sometimes. i am admittedly bad at googling things,but i do think it is also hard to find info for some reason.

i asked the vet a bit about the food again and the person i talked to (actual knowledgeable person,the only one the owner reccomended to me but i hadnt got the chance to talk her until now) said that he is currently on this prescription food for his pancreatitis,and since he has the worst case of it theyve seen i dont have much hope he will be able to change to a new food

but she said if the pancreatitis gets under control we can try to put him back on the fancy feast pate to see if it will work alright with him since its so expensive. she said that the fancy feast pate and prescription food are pretty much just as good as each other but because of his pancreatitis,the fewer ingredients in the prescription food should be easier for his body to handle at the moment and previously i was also told that feeding him a new type of food source should be easier for his body to process.

if the pancreatitis does clear up and we try the fancy feast and it doesn't work for him and his pancreatitis starts acting up again we will put him back on the prescription food,i do hope he can manage to get on the fancy feast pate again because it is so expensive and i have 3 other cats to feed

 

[rainbow1111]

The human glucose meter is just as good as the pet meter. Most of us use the human meter here. It is much cheaper to run

the person i spoke to about it at the vet said that the results will drastically vary/cant quite get an accurate reading and i cant quite remember correctly,but something about how the human one cant read past a certain number accurately for cats?

and are the supplies to continue running it much more expensive? we already ordered one yesterday so will use it regardless but i'd like to know the price comparison for long term use

 

[rainbow1111]

Welcome to FDMB.

The Royal Canin is approximately 15% carb - I'm presuming this is a prescription food.. We generally recommend a low carbohydrate diet -- less than 10%. This is a large chart that contains the nutritional content of most of the canned foods that are around. You have lots of options. FWIW, most people here feed somewhere around 5% carb.

I do have a couple of thoughts. First, Vetsulin is no longer recommended by the American Animal Hospital Association for the treatment of feline diabetes. It does not last 12 hour and it can cause numbers to rapidly drop.. Because it is so harsh, it's important that you start home testing. It's entirely possible that the snapshot you're seeing of your kitty's numbers isn't giving you the whole picture . High numbers can result if your cat's number actually drop lower and the. liver and pancreas release a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones. This causes the numbers to spike upward. If you aren't home testing, there's no way to know how low numbers have gone. If the only tests are at the vet's office, stress can cause numbers to be higher than what you would see at home. In addition, if your kitty is in the middle of one of those upward spikes (they can last around 3 days), the readings at the vet's office may be misleading.

The recommended types of insulin are Prozinc and Lantus. This is a link to the AAHA's Guidelines for Diabetes Management. You might want to share this information with your vet. If it were me, I'd want to be using either Lantus or Prozinc.

Most of us who have been here for a while get comfortable with managing our cat's diabetes. We collaborate with each other, use the dosing guidelines that are here, and adjust our cat's insulin dose independent of our vet. It's the same thing that human diabetics do. It does take some time to wrap your head around all of the information about FD -- it's completely overwhelming at first. But, it all becomes a routine. You'll be comfortable with testing, feeding, and dosing insulin in a remarkable short period of time. And, the people here are generous with their time and information and will be available to lend a hand.

okay i will definitely bring up this info to my vet about the vetsulin next time we speak,will also be starting home testing soon. waiting on a pet blood sugar tester to arrive now and then will be doing the curve testing and giving my vet the numbers.

i kind of wonder if the vetsulin was reccomended because of shortages of other insulins because of the pandemic,my vet is currently having problems with food and certain medicine supplies because of it.

also my vet told me NOT to manage the insulin doses myself,and to stick to the reccomended 1 unit in the morning and 1 unit at night. will bring it up eventually and have a discussion with the vet when i get the chance probably around when i will be giving the vet the number results from the curve

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

What the person said at the vet is not true
The human meter reads lower than the pet meter but the human meter can read all the BGs quite effectively. Our dosing methods are based on the human meter numbers. The pet meter is a relatively new thing and up until it came in the market the vets of this world all used the human meters

The cost of the strips varies as to where you buy them and where you live but basically the pet meter strips are a dollar a strip whereas the human meter strips can be bought in the US for as low as $15 / 100. I stand corrected with those prices as I am not from the US but I am sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
The human meter is completely safe to use. I used one for 5 years on my diabetic kitty.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I'm echoing Bron's point. Strips for a human meter are far more affordable. I managed my cat's diabetes for 6.5 years using a human meter and worked with cat only vets in 2 cities. I never got any push back about my meter. The other issue with a pet meter is that you can only buy strips online. If you are running low and it's an emergency, you have no way of getting more strips. You can usually find a 24 hour pharmacy where you can get strips if the need is there even if the cost is higher if you purchase strips at a brick and mortar store.

Just an FYI - it is highly unlikely that a vet will tell you it's fine to manage your cat's FD on your own. At first, the vet's caution may be that you're new at this and really may not know what you're doing. I know that I was very unsure of myself at the beginning and then when Gabby's numbers were dropping and it was late in the evening and I couldn't reach my vet, my resource was this board. I learned how to follow a dosing method and adjust Gabby's doses based on what the numbers told me and the dosing guidelines suggested. When I moved to a new city, my current vet took one look at Gabby's spreadsheet, laughed, and said that I didn't need her to manage my cat's FD. (When I interviewed her, we also had a discussion about diabetes and I gently asked if she was going to give me a hard time if I was making dose changes. She's very much a partner in the care of my kitties and has never gotten into a power struggle with me. It's always been a collaboration.) Unfortunately this isn't always the case and some vets want you to bring your cat in regularly for a curve. This is expensive and IMHO, dangerous. If the only time. you're "allowed" to make a dose change is based on a curve, what happens if you get a spot check and get low numbers at home?

 

[JanetNJ]

) what do you mean by "The first couple weeks you are just learning to test it's not always easy to get readings." do you just mean practice with getting the blood or is it possible to somehow mess up the readings?

I mean it takes a couple pokes in the beginning until the capillaries grow in. Not impossibly though.

it possible to somehow mess up the readings?

gosh thank you so much for looking it up and finding the carb percentage for me. do you have advice on how you were able to look it up? looking up the carb and protein percentages can feel like looking for a needle in a haystack online sometimes.

It’s on the food chart . Page 63. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

his pancreatitis,the fewer ingredients in the prescription food should be easier for his body to handle at the moment and previously i was also told that feeding him a new type of food source should be easier for his body to process.

Look into Weruva food. Really good ingredients. A bit pricier than ff but good stuff. It’s what I feed my cat. Currently my cat is eating:



Weruva slide and serve pate foods Family Food (.97 phosphorus and 0 carb). Also Jeopurrdy Chicken (0.97 P 6.1 carb)

Weruva Steak Frites (0.57 phosphorus 7.5 carb although I take out any big pieces of potatoes to try to limit the carbs just a bit)

Weruva LA isla Bonita - phosphorus 0.77 carb 4.5
Glam and punk 1% carb, 0.93 phosphorous.

Weruva paw lickin chicken 3.3 carb 0.82 p and
Press your lunch 5.9 carb. 0.82 phosphorous
Bff play Laugh Out Loud chicken and lamb 7.7 carb, 0.82 phosphorous
BFF play destiny (chicken and duck) 0.87 phosphorus 7.7 carb
Bff play chicken cherish 0.71 phosphorus 7.6 carb
Bff play best buds chicken and beef 7.9 carb 0.9 phosphorus
Bff play chicken Checkmate. 7.7 carb 0.7 phos


The fancy feast naturals line might have less ingredients. I think they leave out food dyes, so maybe that’s an option as well.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

If the vet said their meter only works for cats...how do they explain when my cat was alive thats what THEY used (a human meter). ANY meter can be calculated to work! I stand by this comment. Human meters work just as good as any pet meter and they are TONS cheaper.

 

[JanetNJ]

thanks so much for the help,i have him on a 10 am and 10pm schedule now. might change the schedule to 8 am and 8pm eventually but for now this works and im grateful i was informed about this,im sure the vet told me but theres been a lot of information overload.

i asked the vet if i should be feeding him a bit before the insulin and they said the way ive been doing that was instructed before (giving him his food with his insulin,making sure he starts eating it first) is fine,might be because its only 1 unit at a time at the moment,will make sure to re-ask this question when his insulin doseage is upped

and thanks for the info about not swapping over to a low carb diet until i start testing at home,i actually just learned that you need a cat blood sugar tester,and the human ones dont work the same so we just ordered one yesterday.

I love my alpha track. I’ve been using it for four years. That being said a majority in here use human meter. I just prefer to have the same numbers as my vet. I save a bit in strips by getting them from eBay.

 

[Tina Marie (GA) and Jan]

I love my alpha track. I’ve been using it for four years. That being said a majority in here use human meter. I just prefer to have the same numbers as my vet. I save a bit in strips by getting them from eBay.

I started with what my vet sold me - a Henry Schein Vet GlucoGauge. Then I discovered his office was the only place I could purchase the strips; just plain wrong! So I bought an AT, and loved it. And yes, I paid a dollar a strip, but kept wanting "feline" numbers!

The point I wanted to make is something I've kept a little quiet, but I think is important - when Tina was looking real good and coming close to a reduction, I changed over to a human meter to "prove" she really was ready for another decrease. See 11/8/2019 on SS. (She was not going under 68, but as soon as I changed to a human meter, she went under 50 quickly.) I've read other sources that have stated under 70 and under 80 are when to reduce on an AT meter -- that would make sense based on Tina's insulin experience.
The general rule for tight regulation, is to lower dose when under 68 as opposed to 50 on a human meter. Other than that, there is no direct correlation between the meters where most helpers can be on target - since the protocols were written using a human meter. However, I found a source from the University of Queensland (2009) that says up to 130 equates to 100 on the human meter. So 130 would still be "green".

I love having the AlphaTrac as my backup, but use the Freestyle Freedom Lite, since it needs the .3ml like the AT; instead of .5ml of blood like the Relion from Walmart. Small sample size is my own hangup. .5ml isn't bad!

Edited to make sense!

 

[JanetNJ]

I started with what my vet sold me - a Henry Schein Vet GlucoGauge. Then I discovered his office was the only place I could purchase the strips; just plain wrong! So I bought an AT, and loved it. And yes, I paid a dollar a strip, but kept wanting "feline" numbers!

The point I wanted to make is something I've kept a little quiet, but I think is important - when Tina was looking real good and coming close to a reduction, I changed over to a human meter to "prove" she really was ready for another decrease. See 11/8/2019 on SS. (She was not going under 68, but as soon as I changed to a human meter, she went under 50 quickly.) I've read other sources that have stated under 70 and under 80 are when to reduce on an AT meter -- that would make sense based on Tina's insulin experience.
The general rule for tight regulation, is to lower dose when under 68 as opposed to 50 on a human meter. Other than that, there is no direct correlation between the meters where most helpers can be on target - since the protocols were written using a human meter. However, I found a source from the University of Queensland (2009) that says up to 130 equates to 100 on the human meter. So 130 would still be "green".

I love having the AlphaTrac as my backup, but use the Freestyle Freedom Lite, since it needs the .3ml; instead of .5ml of blood. The small sample size is my own hangup. .5ml isn't bad!

The alpha also requires only 0.3 size sample

 

[Tina Marie (GA) and Jan]

The alpha also requires only 0.3 size sample

That's why I got a Freestyle Freedom Lite instead of a Relion (best priced strips) - so I could keep the .3 blood sample size like the AT. I wasn't clear, I see, sorry!

 

[JanetNJ]

That's why I got a Freestyle Lite instead of a Relion (best priced strips) - so I could keep the .3 sample size the AT uses.
Sorry if my rambling became unclear!

Ooooh ok. I thought you thought the alpha was 0.5. Gotcha.

 

[rainbow1111]

I love my alpha track. I’ve been using it for four years. That being said a majority in here use human meter. I just prefer to have the same numbers as my vet. I save a bit in strips by getting them from eBay.

thank you so much for tip about getting them a bit cheaper on ebay,extremely helpful! i just ordered some from there now,all of his monthly needs are most of my income because i am disabled and can't work,so money is extremely tight right now and so i can't express how thankful i am for that tip! 10$ cheaper than from where i was going to buy from. the strips cost so much but ive decided im going to go with the alpha track despite the tremendous cost for the same reason,

did the curve at home about 2 days ago and emailed the results to my vet,vet said the numbers actually look really good

10:27am sugars:392

12:35pm sugars:193

2:35pm sugars:203

4:34pm sugars:243

6:30pm sugars:304

8:31pm sugars:372

10:37pm sugars:343

although i wouldnt say that the numbers almost being 400 at the start/end of the day is ideal,considering his sugars dropped by 200 with the first dose i imagine it would be dangerous to up his insulin,though to be honest as much as i do think it makes sense will probably ask for a second opinion at the vet just to make sure

i think once the sugars seem to be in a good place for like,a longer period of time i do the curve a little less often from what i remember being told and hopefully when his pancreatitis is okay enough get him on a lower carb diet, his pee is still slightly foamy so that is a concern of mine,and im not sure if that's just a common unavoidable thing with diabetic cats,

hes a bit antsy but still so much happier,especially after i reintroduced him to the other cats again,since i was monitoring him alone in a room with me for awhile to watch him closely and let him rest,will probably do that for a bit again when i hopefully can switch his food,but his poop became like super good and not worrying for like a week so i decided that it was safe to not monitor that as closely for the time being


on an unrelated but positive and kind of funny note:

also am starting to get better sleep,not perfect yet but i was instinctively waking up 2-3 times a night to check up on him,i am not even slightly joking when i say this, i started hallucinating my phone alarm every so often from the stress /lack of sleep like,literally didnt realize i was hallucinating the sound and it wasnt someone elses phone alarm in the house with the same ringtone until i was in the car waiting for a vet appointment with my mother,and i started hearing the alarm sound go off vividly,and my mother didn't hear it. and i can luckily say that hasn't happened in awhile! though i hope i didnt just jinx it haha. was wild though,never have had something like that happen to me.

 

[rainbow1111]

That's why I got a Freestyle Freedom Lite instead of a Relion (best priced strips) - so I could keep the .3 blood sample size like the AT. I wasn't clear, I see, sorry!

i will absolutely keep this information in mind if i/my vet are ever confident to switch over for the daily testing,at least for the curve results i want to use the alpha track 2 since thats what my vet uses but if i get less anxious/money becomes even tighter may switch over to the freestyle freedom lite for the daily testing. all of you are so helpful and i appreciate it so much

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

Is Kim the only actual vet? I love my vet, her dad was a vet and she was born to do this. My problem is we're all 20+ years older than the first day I walked through her door so she's tired of taking care of her mom, she has trouble keeping partners and most of all she has gone through a long list of techs that are just hopeless. When two techs feel they must pin a cat to the table to clip his nails and the cat is mouth breathing is when you step in and say "no, this isn't right".
The real life help you get here is far better than the perky tech who walks into walls, doesn't know how much a unit is or loses your cats ashes. You're in a good place here, keep doing what you're doing.

 

[JanetNJ]

thank you so much for tip about getting them a bit cheaper on ebay,extremely helpful!

Oh good! Just keep an eye on the expiration dates... Sometimes people try to sell strips that are very expired. You are doing awesome.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Would you be interested in setting up a signature and spread sheet? You can find how to do that here:
Suggestions, Tech Support & Testing Area

The signature is so we can see "at a glance" all of your kitties particulars, like his name the type of insulin, the meter being used,
Food he eats etc.

The spreadsheet is invaluable to help our experts give the best advice for the numbers and info recorded. This really is in your and your cats best interest.

jeanne

 

[rainbow1111]

Is Kim the only actual vet? I love my vet, her dad was a vet and she was born to do this. My problem is we're all 20+ years older than the first day I walked through her door so she's tired of taking care of her mom, she has trouble keeping partners and most of all she has gone through a long list of techs that are just hopeless. When two techs feel they must pin a cat to the table to clip his nails and the cat is mouth breathing is when you step in and say "no, this isn't right".
The real life help you get here is far better than the perky tech who walks into walls, doesn't know how much a unit is or loses your cats ashes. You're in a good place here, keep doing what you're doing.

kim isnt a vet,shes a vet tech (and also the owner) i have since gotten to know kims recommended vet tech,alicia,who is usually at work unlike kim which has been been a big relief,also great news! so for awhile,tavros's numbers were around 320-370 ,then he spiked to around 400-470 for a little bit ,and his numbers for the past few days have been super good,around the low 200's both day and night,so hope it stays that way!

i think the spike might have been from him adjusting to his new insulin doseage (also cant be positive bc the spike started a few days after he consistently was on the new dose) because my mother,without advice from the vet or my consent,was switching his dose from 1 units to 1.5 units depending on his numbers on a day to day basis,which apparently can also cause a pancreaitus flareup if you change the numbers like that,so that was very upsetting to learn,but when i informed the vet about this they said to do the curve with 1.5 units since he was mainly getting that doseage,then they approved of that doseage and hes on 1.5 units in the morning and then at night,and it looks like its his perfecy doseage,at least for now! (also the first time we did the curve,we managed to not remember to set the alphatrack meter to match the strips so the curve numbers were invalid so that was a nightmare,but luckily all sorted now! also been a whole lot easier to do his blood testing and insulin injecting,

(btw we got a very small mini lamp from the dollar store that we use to put behind his ear to see his vein to find a good spot to draw blood from since he can be hard to get blood out of,and BOY. it works miracles. we were using our phone flashlight before this and this is so much easier and it stands up on its own,it makes it SOOO much faster,if you or someone you know of has trouble getting blood out of your cats ears i HIGHLY suggest finding something similar!)

on some not as great news,he is for sure diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis,and has also been throwing up light yellow clear liquid with some hair in it for awhile now (the amount of hair varying,sometimes very little,sometimes a hairball) waited for a bit to see if it was just him passing a hairball but at this point i know its not so i will be emailing his doctor to try to get an answer as to what to do for that,ive got some cerenia which helps with vomiting but not sure if this counts or will help since hes not throwing up food and i cant tell if its just that his body cant handle hair in his tummy now and if cerenia can solve that,

but! overall been doing very very well considering his circumstances other than that. like his sugars are so good for his case atm! hes gained about 2 pounds since he first went to the vet,has no trouble jumping onto things that arent too high,been pretty happy and more affectionate,has energy to play ect. considering how bad he was when we first took him,this is still an absolute miracle so i am still very very relieved and grateful!

this will be my last lil update abt him on this post specifically since it was sort of about the whole vet thing and processing of figuring things out at the start and things have finally started to fall into place,but will definitely continue to use this godsend of a forum,thank you all so much you

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Glad you are happy. Hope the vet gets the pancreatitis in check.

 

[rainbow1111]

Would you be interested in setting up a signature and spread sheet? You can find how to do that here:
Suggestions, Tech Support & Testing Area

The signature is so we can see "at a glance" all of your kitties particulars, like his name the type of insulin, the meter being used,
Food he eats etc.

The spreadsheet is invaluable to help our experts give the best advice for the numbers and info recorded. This really is in your and your cats best interest.

jeanne

thank you for the advice/tip

Would you be interested in setting up a signature and spread sheet? You can find how to do that here:
Suggestions, Tech Support & Testing Area

The signature is so we can see "at a glance" all of your kitties particulars, like his name the type of insulin, the meter being used,
Food he eats etc.

The spreadsheet is invaluable to help our experts give the best advice for the numbers and info recorded. This really is in your and your cats best interest.

jeanne

thank you for the tip/advice! i looked into the spreadsheet,i am a bit confused about it despite instructions but will look over it again later/when i have food to fuel my braincells and maybe with my mother if she's interested in it aswell. we write down his sugars in a book and also in my phone but this seems way more organized/better for longterm use since a book can run out of space and isn't something i can easily translate to digital in a pinch,havent looked at the signature setting up yet but will do that soon aswell

 

[rainbow1111]

Glad you are happy. Hope the vet gets the pancreatitis in check.

thank you !

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

thank you for the advice/tip


thank you for the tip/advice! i looked into the spreadsheet,i am a bit confused about it despite instructions but will look over it again later/when i have food to fuel my braincells and maybe with my mother if she's interested in it aswell. we write down his sugars in a book and also in my phone but this seems way more organized/better for longterm use since a book can run out of space and isn't something i can easily translate to digital in a pinch,havent looked at the signature setting up yet but will do that soon aswell

@Chris & China (GA) helps members set up the spread sheets. With then our experts can give good informed advice. They dont like giving advice with being able to see trends in how issulin works for your kitty.
The signature is important because it contains all the information particular to Tavros, Insulin used, food he eats age, dx date, Our experts at a glance can see everything about you both so they dont have to sift through threads
Here are the basics!
HOW-TO USE THE FDMB: The Basics

 

[Noah & me (GA)]

Glad to see things are getting better. Unfortunately both our diabetic cats are gone and I'm not up to date on medical advice but I know other members have read the post you kind of directed at me. The flashlight thing never worked for me but that was just one cat and one owner. If it works for you don't stop.
You'll never have to thank us for what we were born to do but any update is always welcome.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

i looked into the spreadsheet,i am a bit confused about it despite instructions but will look over it again later/when i have food to fuel my braincells and maybe with my mother if she's interested in it aswell.

I'd be happy to set it up for you if you need help. Just click on my name and choose "start a conversation" to send me a private message so I can get some information I'd need.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

THANKS Chris!