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JenaThompson

JenaThompson

Member Since 2020
Hi all. Diagnosed in January been a member since just haven’t posted. Looking for advise on insulin dosing. We have been on vetsulin since the beginning the vet insisted on the prescription food I refused. They were against home testing. At one point they had me giving him 7 units 2x even with a food change to all wet food which he had a hypo on and won’t touch wet food anymore. The 3rd vet we saw when he had the hypo put him back down to 3 units 2x a day. He’s now eating dr elseys( he is kibble junkie). When we first started his number were in the 700s at the vet. Now at home the last few days his numbers have been under 200 so no shots, but then last night and this morning he was around 216. I’m wondering if I do still give him a dose since it’s so close to 200 and how much it would be.
 
JenaThompson said:
Hi all. Diagnosed in January been a member since just haven’t posted. Looking for advise on insulin dosing. We have been on vetsulin since the beginning the vet insisted on the prescription food I refused. They were against home testing. At one point they had me giving him 7 units 2x even with a food change to all wet food which he had a hypo on and won’t touch wet food anymore. The 3rd vet we saw when he had the hypo put him back down to 3 units 2x a day. He’s now eating dr elseys( he is kibble junkie). When we first started his number were in the 700s at the vet. Now at home the last few days his numbers have been under 200 so no shots, but then last night and this morning he was around 216. I’m wondering if I do still give him a dose since it’s so close to 200 and how much it would be.
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WELCOME BACK!
I cannot give dosing advice but you may want to repost this here:
Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH
There are eyes there that can specifically speak to your insulin type.
 
JenaThompson said:
Hi all. Diagnosed in January been a member since just haven’t posted. Looking for advise on insulin dosing. We have been on vetsulin since the beginning the vet insisted on the prescription food I refused. They were against home testing. At one point they had me giving him 7 units 2x even with a food change to all wet food which he had a hypo on and won’t touch wet food anymore. The 3rd vet we saw when he had the hypo put him back down to 3 units 2x a day. He’s now eating dr elseys( he is kibble junkie). When we first started his number were in the 700s at the vet. Now at home the last few days his numbers have been under 200 so no shots, but then last night and this morning he was around 216. I’m wondering if I do still give him a dose since it’s so close to 200 and how much it would be.
Click to expand...
Welcome!!!

Do you have a spreadsheet set up for him? It will be hard for folks to advise you on dosing without seeing his numbers for the last couple of days/weeks. Do you think you can also set up your signature? It helps us see at a glance all the basic info about your kitty. Here’s a link with instruction for all of that:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

:)
 
jt and trouble (GA) said:
WELCOME BACK!
I cannot give dosing advice but you may want to repost this here:
Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH
There are eyes there that can specifically speak to your insulin type.
Click to expand...
Ok thank you.
Aleluia Grugru & Minnie said:
Welcome!!!

Do you have a spreadsheet set up for him? It will be hard for folks to advise you on dosing without seeing his numbers for the last couple of days/weeks. Do you think you can also set up your signature? It helps us see at a glance all the basic info about your kitty. Here’s a link with instruction for all of that:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

:)
Click to expand...
im still unsure of how to share my spreadsheet/find the link to share it.
 
Aleluia Grugru & Minnie said:
Welcome!!!

Do you have a spreadsheet set up for him? It will be hard for folks to advise you on dosing without seeing his numbers for the last couple of days/weeks. Do you think you can also set up your signature? It helps us see at a glance all the basic info about your kitty. Here’s a link with instruction for all of that:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

:)
Click to expand...
I think I got it figured out on the signature and a copy of the link to his spreadsheet too. I hope anyways.
 
JenaThompson said:
I’m not sure what those mean I give him shots in the am and pm after meal times.
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Nvm, you’re on vetsulin so you should follow SLGS.

I think TR is only for glargine insulins. I can’t find the sticky note, but see below:

Approaches to Regulation:

Many here choose one of two methods to hopefully achieve regulation: Tight Regulation Protocol with Lantus or Levemir or a less intense method with fewer blood glucose tests required called Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS).
Note: Lantus and Basaglar are brand names for insulin glargine.

Both approaches were created and developed by laypersons using human meters. Reference numbers given for blood glucose numbers are from blood glucose meters calibrated for human use.

As of this writing, the Tight Regulation Protocol with Lantus or Levemir for Diabetic Cats is the only published protocol we know of for use with glargine or detemir. This approach was created by laypersons from the German-Katzen Group and was eventually published several years later.

The TR protocol is the same, but presented in different formats here:
Many glargine and detemir users in this forum have been successful following a somewhat modified version of the Tight Regulation Protocol for years. These "general" guidelines are based on anecdotal evidence and personal experiences of laypersons frequenting this Insulin Support Group.

If the Tight Regulation Protocol isn't the right fit for you, the FDMB's Start Low, Go Slow Method (SLGS)offers an alternative method for regulation. SLGS offers caregivers a less intensive approach to managing their cat's glucose levels.

Guidelines listed for each of these approaches are not intended to portray the ONLY way you can use Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir insulins. The guidelines on this website suggest how to best use Lantus, Basaglar, or Levemir when following one or the other of the protocols mentioned above. Be aware there are other feline diabetes message boards on the web using different dosing methods/protocols successfully.

Once you have learned the onset, peak/nadir, and duration of the insulin in your cat by collecting data from spot checks and curves you'll want to be sure to read Shooting & Handling Low Numbers if you're following the Tight Regulation Protocol.
 
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Aleluia Grugru & Minnie said:
Nvm, you’re on vetsulin so you should follow SLGS.

I think TR is only for glargine insulins. I can’t find the sticky note, but see below:

Approaches to Regulation:

Many here choose one of two methods to hopefully achieve regulation: Tight Regulation Protocol with Lantus or Levemir or a less intense method with fewer blood glucose tests required called Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS).
Note: Lantus and Basaglar are brand names for insulin glargine.

Both approaches were created and developed by laypersons using human meters. Reference numbers given for blood glucose numbers are from blood glucose meters calibrated for human use.

As of this writing, the Tight Regulation Protocol with Lantus or Levemir for Diabetic Cats is the only published protocol we know of for use with glargine or detemir. This approach was created by laypersons from the German-Katzen Group and was eventually published several years later.

The TR protocol is the same, but presented in different formats here:
Many glargine and detemir users in this forum have been successful following a somewhat modified version of the Tight Regulation Protocol for years. These "general" guidelines are based on anecdotal evidence and personal experiences of laypersons frequenting this Insulin Support Group.

If the Tight Regulation Protocol isn't the right fit for you, the FDMB's Start Low, Go Slow Method (SLGS)offers an alternative method for regulation. SLGS offers caregivers a less intensive approach to managing their cat's glucose levels.

Guidelines listed for each of these approaches are not intended to portray the ONLY way you can use Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir insulins. The guidelines on this website suggest how to best use Lantus, Basaglar, or Levemir when following one or the other of the protocols mentioned above. Be aware there are other feline diabetes message boards on the web using different dosing methods/protocols successfully.

Once you have learned the onset, peak/nadir, and duration of the insulin in your cat by collecting data from spot checks and curves you'll want to be sure to read Shooting & Handling Low Numbers if you're following the Tight Regulation Protocol.
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Thank you so much for all the help. I really appreciate it.
 
Lalkabee said:
Is he the ginger or toxedo cat on the picture? I know my questions are not helping this post atm, sorry :/
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Lol all good. He is my ginger boy. Then his older sister(smokie)is the grey one and the 1 yr old black and white(floki)is my other boy.
 

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Lalkabee said:
Floki , was is name inspired by the TV show Vikings? If not, you should watch it. You have a big beautiful and colorful family :) ...but gingers are the best :p
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Lol I love that show. We just threw out some names and let the kids decide. He started out as a sapphire we were told he was girl and then they found out he was a boy at the vet. Our opi is the best he loves everyone and doesn’t care who you are he will love on you.
 
Lalkabee said:
and Floki might build a boat for you someday... :p
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He is definitely my little hellyon. We adopted all three and he’s the only one from a farm he’s already taller than both the other 2 and has some crazy energy but he’s so good with my kids sleeps with them every night and if he can’t get into either room he just cry’s outside the door until I let him in.
 
Welcome Jena, have you read the sticky notes about vetsulin yet.
I can't give you advice on dosing but one thing you should be testing more during the day and especially at night, cats seem to go lower at night

Sorry about the hypo, vetsulin is a harsh insulin and they can drop very quickly
When we increase we increase by 0.25 units or maybe 0.5 units at a time never full units

Do you have syringes with the half unit markings on them

I see you also posted on the Vetsulin forum but no response

I will tag a few experienced members for you

@Deb & Wink

@Marje and Gracie

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

@Chris & China (GA)

Please note she Jena also posted on the Vetsulin forum
Thanks guys
 
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Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Welcome Jena, have you read the sticky notes about vetsulin yet.
I can't give you advice on dosing but one thing you should be testing more testing especially at night, cats seem to go lower at night

Sorry about the hypo, vetsulin is a harsh insulin and they can drop very quickly
When we increase we increase by 0.25 units or maybe 0.5 units at a time never full units

Do you have syringes with the half unit markings on them

I see you also posted on the Vetsulin forum but no response

I will tag a few experienced members for you

@Deb & Wink

@Marje and Gracie

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

Please note she Jena also posted on the Vetsulin forum
Thanks guys
Click to expand...
I have not read them yet. I only have the full unit syringes right now. I was going to check w the vet but it seems every time I talk to them they just want him to come do curves and his number are always so high there I called about the dosing too since I was checking him and they still said give him 3 when he was at around 230 and I feel like that was way to much so he only got 1 that day. And the last 4 nights he been under 200 so I didn’t give any.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
You don't need to bring him there to do curves, you can do them yourself , his numbers are high because he is probably stressed out there

If possible try to get the syringes with half unit markings
Hopefully someone I tagged will give you their opinion
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Yea waiting on some more strips before I can do a curve. We had trouble getting them in April. It was like 3 weeks almost the whole month w no testing bc I could find any here and my orders online were all backed up. Poor guy I try to order way more at a time now just Incase
 
JenaThompson said:
Yea waiting on some more strips before I can do a curve. We had trouble getting them in April. It was like 3 weeks almost the whole month w no testing bc I could find any here and my orders online were all backed up. Poor guy I try to order way more at a time now just Incase
Click to expand...
If you have a Walmart by you they usually have the Relion test strips on the shelves
You can also get the Relion Syringes with the half unit markiings , but make sure you look at them , some of them don't even realize they have the half unit markings
Jena try changing your title to New Member Need Advice on Vetsulin Dosing

Opi is a cutie
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
If you have a Walmart by you they usually have the Relion test strips on the shelves
You can also get the Relion Syringes with the half unit markiings , but make sure you look at them , some of them don't even realize they have the half unit markings

Opi is a cutie
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Thanks he’s adorable. Yea we have 3 Walmart and I could find them at a single one. It sucked. And I had ordered online from them and it was back ordered for like 2 weeks before they shipped it.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
With Vetsulin you need to make sure he eats a good meal 1/2 hour before you give the vetsulin. Vetsulin is a strong, fairly fast acting insulin and you need to have a good amount of food aboard. Eating some more a bit later is ok too as is snacking during the first half of the cycle.
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Yea he’s had a couple nights he refuses to eat until too late so we had skip shots too
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Vetsulin was made for dogs. Hence the name outside the US, Caninsulin (canine + insulin).
Vetsulin only lasts 8-10 hours in a typical cat.


.

Vetsulin is an in-and-out insulin. Which means the effects are done in the dosing cycle, with no carryover. There is NO carryover with Vetsulin like their is with Lantus
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We r vetsulin due to my budget. I wanted to get him more under control before looking into different insulin bc at 1 point we were on 7 units 2x a day.
 
JenaThompson said:
We r vetsulin due to my budget. I wanted to get him more under control before looking into different insulin bc at 1 point we were on 7 units 2x a day.
Click to expand...
I understand that vetsulin is cheaper, starting with 7 units was crazy
If and when you do decide to switch , you can purchase a 5 pack of lantus pens for

5x3ml per box (temp. gauge. ice pack, express-air mail) Brand 100u/ml 15 ml $164.99 USD. From Marks Marine Pharmacy in Canada, most of us purchase it from there because it's so much cheaper .
Depending on the dose one pen can last you 4-5 months, so you would be set for awhile.
Besides that as long as you don't start the other 4 pens they are good until the expiration date on them , probably 2022

With the pen we buy U-100 syringes half unit markings and use the syringe to stick inside the tiny ribber stopper, you will see it when you take the top off of the pen
It's just like drawing from a vial

It's because with the pen you can only increase by full doses
Can talk about that down the road if you decide to switch



buy_insulin_lantus_solostar_320873.jpg
 
JenaThompson said:
We r vetsulin due to my budget. I wanted to get him more under control before looking into different insulin bc at 1 point we were on 7 units 2x a day.
Click to expand...
A few things, the ReliOn 1/2 unit syringes you can only buy at a Walmart store. Not available to order online. These are the most affordable. ADW also has them online but it’s a bit more expensive.

Minnie is on Lantus and it’s extremely expensive here I get it but I learned in this forum about Marks Pharmacy in Canada and it’s way less expensive. Like 1/4 of the price. So consider that if you ever decide to switch insulin. Lantus is long lasting and a bit better suited for cats :cat:
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
I understand that vetsulin is cheaper, starting with 7 units was crazy
If and when you do decide to switch , you can purchase a 5 pack of lantus pens for

5x3ml per box (temp. gauge. ice pack, express-air mail) Brand 100u/ml 15 ml $164.99 USD. From Marks Marine Pharmacy in Canada, most of us purchase it from there because it's so much cheaper .
Depending on the dose one pen can last you 4-5 months, so you would be set for awhile.
Besides that as long as you don't start the other 4 pens they are good until the expiration date on them , probably 2022

With the pen we buy U-100 syringes half unit markings and use the syringe to stick inside the tiny ribber stopper, you will see it when you take the top off of the pen
It's just like drawing from a vial

It's because with the pen you can only increase by full doses
Can talk about that down the road if you decide to switch



buy_insulin_lantus_solostar_320873.jpg
Click to expand...
OMG great minds ha! :p
 
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Jena --

A couple of thoughts. The American Animal Hospital Assn does not recommend Vetsulin for cats. The insulin was developed to treat dogs. A cat's metabolism is too fast and as a result, it doesn't provide the duration you need to get a cat's BG stabilized. It also tense to bring numbers down hard and fast. The AAHA recommends either Prozinc or Lantus for cats. You may want to discuss this with your fet. This is a link to their guidelines which you may want to share with your vet.

With any insulin but especially with a shorter acting insulin, it's very important to get tests during the PM cycle. Getting those PM tests is the only way to insure Optimus is in safe numbers over night.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Jena --

A couple of thoughts. The American Animal Hospital Assn does not recommend Vetsulin for cats. The insulin was developed to treat dogs. A cat's metabolism is too fast and as a result, it doesn't provide the duration you need to get a cat's BG stabilized. It also tense to bring numbers down hard and fast. The AAHA recommends either Prozinc or Lantus for cats. You may want to discuss this with your fet. This is a link to their guidelines which you may want to share with your vet.

With any insulin but especially with a shorter acting insulin, it's very important to get tests during the PM cycle. Getting those PM tests is the only way to insure Optimus is in safe numbers over night.
Click to expand...
Thanks @Sienne and Gabby (GA)
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
@Aleluia Grugru & Minnie
Hi there would she need a script from her vet to send over to Marks
I was lucky enough to purchase 5 pens from the Supply Closet this past Dec with expiration dates 2021 and 2022
In the future if the supply closet doesn't have them I will order from Marks myself @Aleluia Grugru & Minnie
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Yes even though you don’t need a prescription in Canada, they require one to ship to the US. I got one from my vet emailed to me and then I emailed it to them. I think it does have to say for 5 if you’re getting the 5 pen deal. Or at least 1 with 4 refills
 
Vetsulin is a U40 concentration insulin. It IS possible to use U100 syringes with a U40 insulin. Like the Relion U100 syringes Diane recommended. It can get complicated, keeping track of the dose when you use U100 syringes with a U40 concentration insulin.
We do have a conversion chart, for going from U40 measurements to how much to draw up in a U100 syringe.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

I kind of wonder how low Optimus is dropping in the middle of the cycle and what the duration is for him on the Vetsulin. Most cats only get 8-10 hours before the Vetsulin "poops out", is used up. The only way to find that information out for YOUR cat, is to do some testing. ECID Every Cat is Different

Since Optimus is a bit too low for you to comfortably give him his dose both AM and PM cycles, you need to find a dose that you can give in BOTH cycles. So how about trying to give him 0.5U of Vetsulin for now.

And talk to your vet about switching insulins and the AAHA Guidelines that Cheryl linked for you.
 
Deb & Wink said:
Vetsulin is a U40 concentration insulin. It IS possible to use U100 syringes with a U40 insulin. Like the Relion U100 syringes Diane recommended. It can get complicated, keeping track of the dose when you use U100 syringes with a U40 concentration insulin.
We do have a conversion chart, for going from U40 measurements to how much to draw up in a U100 syringe.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

I kind of wonder how low Optimus is dropping in the middle of the cycle and what the duration is for him on the Vetsulin. Most cats only get 8-10 hours before the Vetsulin "poops out", is used up. The only way to find that information out for YOUR cat, is to do some testing. ECID Every Cat is Different

Since Optimus is a bit too low for you to comfortably give him his dose both AM and PM cycles, you need to find a dose that you can give in BOTH cycles. So how about trying to give him 0.5U of Vetsulin for now.

And talk to your vet about switching insulins and the AAHA Guidelines that Cheryl linked for you.
Click to expand...
Thank you @Deb & Wink
 
Deb & Wink said:
Vetsulin is a U40 concentration insulin. It IS possible to use U100 syringes with a U40 insulin. Like the Relion U100 syringes Diane recommended. It can get complicated, keeping track of the dose when you use U100 syringes with a U40 concentration insulin.
We do have a conversion chart, for going from U40 measurements to how much to draw up in a U100 syringe.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm

I kind of wonder how low Optimus is dropping in the middle of the cycle and what the duration is for him on the Vetsulin. Most cats only get 8-10 hours before the Vetsulin "poops out", is used up. The only way to find that information out for YOUR cat, is to do some testing. ECID Every Cat is Different

Since Optimus is a bit too low for you to comfortably give him his dose both AM and PM cycles, you need to find a dose that you can give in BOTH cycles. So how about trying to give him 0.5U of Vetsulin for now.

And talk to your vet about switching insulins and the AAHA Guidelines that Cheryl linked for you.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. I did test him at +2 tonight so I’ll test him again. We are trying to get the food down too amazon has been taking forever to get our food order delivered so for awhile we had to use just cheap food until it came in so I ordered extra this time. Plan on doing another curve soon too ordered some more strips too.
 
So he dropped 63 points in 2 hours, I would test him at +4 if he is dropping lower test him @+5, if he is staying about the same test him @+6
You might have to feed him to bring his BG up
Is the only thing you have is the Dr Elsey's kibble, no wet food?

Most of us feed Fancy Feast Classic Pates
Then if the carbs aren't enough in the FF Pates you should have on hand
the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers they are higher in carbs

Just keep testing him tonight and if you need help just post
 
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