Max

Mcessna

Mcessna

Member Since 2019
Hello, I am so lost on all this ..... I feel like I am failing my Max.... Is it wrong of me to disagree with how the vet wants to treat him..... I just purchased a home tester because every time I would take him to the vets his numbers were 500+ and the vet just wants to keep upping his dose, but I think he does awful with these higher doses.... I have only been testing two days now at home, and morning numbers have been 209 and 236 and then afternoon numbers were 70 and then 236...... I have switched him over to FF classic, but he acts like he is starving when it comes time to feeding him.... I have a full home, with lots of love and we have switched everyone's feeding schedules to keep him out of the food.... We have 3 other cats and 3 dogs and he just wants to eat constantly, so they are all monitored feedings now.....

He is so much better now though than he was a month ago, he was peeing on the couch and drinking like crazy and none of that now..... Should or could I have tried just a diet change first? The vet had me giving him 5 units 2x's a day and honestly that was too much for him.... I went back to 1unit 2 x's a day and then none when I have the lower readings.....

I will appreciate anything you can tell me or how to even help him more... I even thought trying to find him a home that could help him better, because I feel like I am failing him.....And, I want him to live and be happy... my daughter would be devastated though and so would I .... but I feel like I am killing him slowly with not knowing what to do.....
 
Mcessna said:
Is it wrong of me to disagree with how the vet wants to treat him.....
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Hello and welcome! You are absolutely not wrong in disagreeing with your vet. I'm still relatively new here, and Rocket's situation is very different because he has an underlying condition (so don't use our spreadsheet as any kind of reference please!) - but there are many members here who can help you, and tons of data to back them up. Most vets don't get much training about feline diabetes, so you're right to doubt their advice.

That's fantastic that you've picked up a meter so that you can test at home - cats' blood sugar levels can skyrocket at the vet's office due to stress. I'll leave the dosing advice to the more experienced here. You might want to post this in the "Main Forum/Feline Health" too; you'll get more eyeballs over there. Mention that you posted in the ProZinc forum first. You'll also want to set up your cat's info in your profile signature, with a spreadsheet, etc. now that you've started home testing. You can look at other members' to get an idea. Age, date of diagnosis, diet etc. - here's a link that explains how to do the spreadsheet part:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

Again welcome and best of luck!!!
 
I second Karen's response. You are not wrong, the vet is wrong. Most vets just aren't educated in feline diabetes and the response is to just increase the dose, which can be detrimental.

Get the signature set up:
Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

And then the spreadsheet. If you need help learning to test we have videos and lots of tips and suggestions that worked for each of us as we learned.

Taking that dose down to 1 Unit 2x a day was a good decision, but you aren't going to know how it's working until you start testing and recording on the spreadsheet.

You can read the Beginner's Guide to Prozinc HERE. It will answer a lot of your questions and hopefully start to ease your mind, you need to relax a little bit so your anxiety when you start testing doesn't stress Max out. They are soooo good at reading us.

Help is right here, you have a whole community of people that have your back and the best interests of Max in mind. You definitely are not failing Max, your coming here and asking for information and help is evidence of that, in spades!
 
I'm pretty much in the same boat, so I understand. Salem was in the 500's when he was diagnosed and the vet has been upping his dosage every week but I think it's up to too much so I reduced him. I'm still trying to figure out the right dose, but testing him has helped a lot and he's acting better so I'm just taking it one week at a time. It's hard not being able to really trust the vet but I'm just trying to do what's best for him. Everyone on here has been really helpful and great though and it helps.
 
You have come to the right place! It's a bit overwhelming trying to learn everything quickly. The Prozinc FAQ has a lot of good content. My vet gave me supplies, told me 2U 2x/day and that was it! This forum is active and helpful and I'm reading other people's posts to help my education. Fortunately, my cat went from really high to easily manageable just by getting her off dry food. Now it's time to fine tune, understand her BG cycles and strive for consistency.

I think the people who deal with the disease are better equipped to help than a vet who does diagnosis and sends you home!
 
Thank you everyone.... I have only had 1 high number this week and that was this morning, but that little booger smashed the cookie jar and I have no idea how many he ate....and, it was 413 this morning.... All other testings before any meal was 160 and below ( so if it has been below that I have not given him any insulin) - I am not sure I am doing the right thing though..... The cat is just crazy for food......
 
Oh my gosh, cookies??? Sounds like another Tucker. He's a kitty that lives in Australia and gets into all kinds of contraband food.

It would be very helpful to see the numbers on the spreadsheet if you could get that set up. Then you would get much more informed advice and suggestions. Your signature indicates you have been dosing according to testing numbers, but we don't know whether those numbers are pre-shot or when during the 12 hour cycle, or what the dose was. Most of these insulins work better on a consistent dose basis, at least until a small adjustment needs to be made up or down, and it may be very hard to find the right dose or get Max regulated without more info.
 
You have the spreadsheet set up and we can review the BG testing numbers you have recorded. Could you please enter the number of units of Prozinc you injected in the "U" columns just to the right of the AMPS and the PMPS columns? If you didn't give a shot, then just put NS in the U cell for that morning and/or evening. Then we can see what dose you gave Max with each shot and see what happened right on the spreadsheet grid.

It's so great that you are getting the testing done and set the spreadsheet up so we can help you help Max. This is hardly failing him, you are not killing him, you are saving his life and helping him to feel better. Look at the spreadsheet, see the blue and green numbers? Those are good numbers!. Many kitties starting out have much much higher BG than those numbers. This is doable, and you can do it, heck you are doing it!

It's going to help further if you can get some tests during the day so we can see how low the BG goes. Try for 6 hours past the injection in the day, and if you can get a few more at different hours, that would be wonderful. A before bed test is also a good indicator of what is happening on the nighttime cycle. If Max is already getting the blue and green numbers at the preshot tests, the dose may need to be reduced further. Please plug in the Units of Prozinc given and test during the cycle, very important!! Please don't give a shot without this information and further advice. We don't want his BG going TOO low.

So, no more meltdowns, and you can stick consideration of re-homing on the shelf because you can't take care of Max, because you are already doing it! :cat:

Tell us what you feed Max and the other kitties please, we need to evaluate the diet and see where to go from here. Ok?
 
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Idjit's mom said:
You have the spreadsheet set up and we can review the BG testing numbers you have recorded. Could you please enter the number of units of Prozinc you injected in the "U" columns just to the right of the AMPS and the PMPS columns? If you didn't give a shot, then just put NS in the U cell for that morning and/or evening. Then we can see what dose you gave Max with each shot and see what happened right on the spreadsheet grid.

It's so great that you are getting the testing done and set the spreadsheet up so we can help you help Max. This is hardly failing him, you are not killing him, you are saving his life and helping him to feel better. Look at the spreadsheet, see the blue and green numbers? Those are good numbers!. Many kitties starting out have much much higher BG than those numbers. This is doable, and you can do it, heck you are doing it!

It's going to help further if you can get some tests during the day so we can see how low the BG goes. Try for 6 hours past the injection in the day, and if you can get a few more at different hours, that would be wonderful. A before bed test is also a good indicator of what is happening on the nighttime cycle. If Max is already getting the blue and green numbers at the preshot tests, the dose may need to be reduced further. Please plug in the Units of Prozinc given and test during the cycle, very important!! Please don't give a shot without this information and further advice. We don't want his BG going TOO low.

So, no more meltdowns, and you can stick consideration of re-homing on the shelf because you can't take care of Max, because you are already doing it! :cat:

Tell us what you feed Max and the other kitties please, we need to evaluate the diet and see where to go from here. Ok?[/QUOTE
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I switched max to friskier pate only and all the other cats in the household too .. he’s not the happiest about that but we have also had to hide all people food and the dogs food ... and I try my hardest but sometimes he sneaks a piece of food if the dogs drop it .., I sit and monitor their feeding but there are times I miss a piece ... I work full time during the day but I’ll try to get numbers over the weekend

He was 303 this evening and I gave him 1 unit but then 4 hours later he’s just not acting himself and I just tested and he’s 549 and that was a struggle to get that reading - the only way I can test him is wrapped in a towel ...
 
Please keep the spreadsheet updated as much as possible. Any members who read your posts are going to look at the spreadsheet to see the "whole picture". Hopefully, with treats and conditioning, Max will get easier to handle and it won't be so difficult for you.

I am going to tag in the experienced Prozinc users so that they can make some recommendations with dosing. I don't know if you work during the day, but if you can get some tests done between the shots, we can see what's happening. You should not give an insulin dose based on the pre-shot numbers.

@Djamila
@Rachel
@MrWorfMen's Mom

You can edit your signature to reflect more information, take a look at mine. You can refer back to the spreadsheet instructions, or holler for help to rename the spreadsheet link to something shorter, then you can put the following info in the signature:
kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters)

I made my signature when there was more space available to input information, there is less space allowed now and we need additional information plus the spreadsheet link. We need to know the food, dosage, meter type for sure. You can edit your profile to include a geographic location, like the state you are in. Click on Idjit's picture, you will see I live in Eastern Washington State.
 
First of all I want to echo what others have said.....you absolutely are NOT letting Max down. You have quite obviously made far better decisions for Max than your vet and Max is darn lucky to have you as his advocate. It's quite evident that Max is in the best home he could hope for. You not only have paid attention to your instincts but you've been proactive about doing so and I'm sure you have saved his life by not blindly following the vet's instructions.

I also want to congratulate you for having the patience to play lunchroom monitor with all your four footers. I have 3 kitties and my extra sweet girl loves to pilfer her brother's food so I know how exasperating the monitoring can get!

As has been mentioned, you definitely need to start getting some mid cycle tests to see how low the dose of insulin is taking Max. Given that higher pre-shot tonight with no shot having been given this morning or last night, I have to wonder if your little monkey has managed to pilfer something he shouldn't have again. BG was great last night and again this AM so it seems a bit odd it would be so high tonight. Please make sure to get a test of his BG around +3 or +4 post shot tonight. I know that might be difficult but for safety sake, I think it's advisable since you gave him 1u of insulin tonight. I'd also feed him again when you test.

Not sure what to tell you as far as dosing is concerned right now. Many of the readings you have are totally normal BG and some of the highs seem to be explainable by bouncing which I think is due to too much insulin.

So I suggest you test him but skip the insulin tomorrow morning regardless of what his BG is, feed as usual and we'll revisit the dose question in the evening when we see what his evening pre-shot BG is.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
First of all I want to echo what others have said.....you absolutely are NOT letting Max down. You have quite obviously made far better decisions for Max than your vet and Max is darn lucky to have you as his advocate. It's quite evident that Max is in the best home he could hope for. You not only have paid attention to your instincts but you've been proactive about doing so and I'm sure you have saved his life by not blindly following the vet's instructions.

I also want to congratulate you for having the patience to play lunchroom monitor with all your four footers. I have 3 kitties and my extra sweet girl loves to pilfer her brother's food so I know how exasperating the monitoring can get!

As has been mentioned, you definitely need to start getting some mid cycle tests to see how low the dose of insulin is taking Max. Given that higher pre-shot tonight with no shot having been given this morning or last night, I have to wonder if your little monkey has managed to pilfer something he shouldn't have again. BG was great last night and again this AM so it seems a bit odd it would be so high tonight. Please make sure to get a test of his BG around +3 or +4 post shot tonight. I know that might be difficult but for safety sake, I think it's advisable since you gave him 1u of insulin tonight. I'd also feed him again when you test.

Not sure what to tell you as far as dosing is concerned right now. Many of the readings you have are totally normal BG and some of the highs seem to be explainable by bouncing which I think is due to too much insulin.

So I suggest you test him but skip the insulin tomorrow morning regardless of what his BG is, feed as usual and we'll revisit the dose question in the evening when we see what his evening pre-shot BG is.
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Thank you, I agree... I think when his numbers are high that he is getting food somewhere..... Let me give you a little insight to my home.... Single mom, 3 blessings 10, 8 and 6 ..... 3 dogs one of which has Addysons disease, but we have managed that fine and she will be 12 in December and then 3 kitties and then Max...... I know, alot..... So there is bound to be crumbs, but the kids are getting better about tying down their snacks..... I do work all daylight.... I will try and get some mid level readings this weekend.... Here is what I have noticed though, it seems he feels awful after the insulin anymore......hes just not himself....

Thank you all for the kind words...... I have purchased mattress pad covers and all the chairs are now covered too, which makes clean up a lot easier
 
Your description of Max feeling awful is concerning and is likely a result of the ups and downs being caused by the inconsistent dosing of insulin.
Insulin is not medicine...it is a hormone so it affects a lot more than just BG numbers. Too much insulin can look just like too little so you cannot dose based solely on pre-shot numbers and to do so is dangerous.

I see you gave insulin again this morning and that too has me very concerned. I really think that 303 this morning is a result of the 1u dose last night taking Max's BG down to what may be unsafe levels. He is bouncing which is a defensive response to protect the cat from the BG going too low. The problem is that the body only has so much stored sugar to use for what the cat perceives as a threat and those stores can get depleted and lead to hypoglycemia.

I strongly suggest you load your cat up on high carb food this morning before going to work. If you don't have high carb food, then mix some honey or karo into some food and leave food out for Max to eat even if that means containing him in a separate space for the day.

PLEASE DO NOT give insulin again until we can see what his levels are like without it. It appears likely your cat's dose is too high IF he needs insulin at all.
Can you test Max's BG again before you leave for work?
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Your description of Max feeling awful is concerning and is likely a result of the ups and downs being caused by the inconsistent dosing of insulin.
Insulin is not medicine...it is a hormone so it affects a lot more than just BG numbers. Too much insulin can look just like too little so you cannot dose based solely on pre-shot numbers and to do so is dangerous.

I see you gave insulin again this morning and that too has me very concerned. I really think that 303 this morning is a result of the 1u dose last night taking Max's BG down to what may be unsafe levels. He is bouncing which is a defensive response to protect the cat from the BG going too low. The problem is that the body only has so much stored sugar to use for what the cat perceives as a threat and those stores can get depleted and lead to hypoglycemia.

I strongly suggest you load your cat up on high carb food this morning before going to work. If you don't have high carb food, then mix some honey or karo into some food and leave food out for Max to eat even if that means containing him in a separate space for the day.

PLEASE DO NOT give insulin again until we can see what his levels are like without it. It appears likely your cat's dose is too high IF he needs insulin at all.
Can you test Max's BG again before you leave for work?
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I did not get a chance, but I will test and then retest tonight and then I will be home tomorrow so I will be able to test during the day.....
 
Ok... I wont...

So, just because his numbers are high then doesn't mean he needs insulin then? Omg, can you imagine if I would have kept giving him the 5 units the vet recommended? This has me scared, but thank you so much for helping me through this....
 
The problem with having the vet check BG levels is that our kitties are notorious for having elevated BG in the vet's office. Their BG can be inflated by 100 points and sometimes up to 200 points from the stress. The vet sees the higher numbers and wrongly assumes the cat needs more insulin. Unfortunately, there is also the problem that a lot, if not most vets, don't really understand how insulin works. They get precious little training in vet school and it covers all species. They often don't have a lot of diabetic cats in their practice so they don't stay up to date with current practices. They also try to make things as simple as possible for the human caregiver to avoid having people give up on their pets because of the diabetes. Vets have a very tough job...far tougher than a human family doctor IMHO and what you have experienced is all too common. Thankfully, a lot of folks like yourself, seek out this forum because of the lack of info and instruction they get from their vet.

We'll help you get Max sorted and on the path to a healthier future.
 
I kept telling my vet that, when i would take him for his blood sugar testing.... I told him he was 98% better than he was but his numbers were always so high at the vets.... Yes, I agree - our furbabies can not tell us whats wrong or where it hurts.... Thank you so much for all the help so far.... I will post as soon as I get his numbers this evening.
 
Ok, just got home and tested

441

Max does not like the testing I have to wrap him in a towels and swaddle him
 
Ok I really think that is one major bounce from too much insulin so I still think you need to withhold the insulin tonight to see if his BG comes back down. Test him again at your normal pre-shot time and don't feed him anything between now and that test. we want a fasting BG at pre-shot time.
 
I presume that is a fasting BG test (no food for at least 2 hours prior to that test)? He's come down some but not as much as I had hoped/expected. Then again, bounces can take a few cycles to totally clear. Are you sure he didn't get into any more contraband?

As long as that morning reading was a fasting BG and you are sure there was no contraband involved, I think you could try a dose of 0.5u and check BG mid cycle when possible to see how low that dose takes him.
 
Yes, that was fasting... and, no I’m not 100 sure but I’m pretty sure - he did urinate on the chair last night too
 
Sorry about the piddle. Has Max been checked for a Urinary tract infection? They are very common in diabetics and can cause the inappropriate elimination.

Is Max walking/jumping as normal? Does he appear to be walking on his hocks rather than in his toes in the hind quarters? I ask because there is also a condition called diabetic neuropathy which causes leg weakness and can cause litter box avoidance due to difficulties getting in and out or possibly some loss of bladder control.

I'd try the 0.5u then and see how he does.
 
Ok - yes his urine is good

He’s walking fine actually trying tonscale the wall to get to the other cats food as we speak

I watch him use the litter box all the time but if I didn’t know better I would swear he’s doing it to get attention..: it’s only at night or when we aren’t in the house
 
Well that seems to rule out neuropathy. Is there some rivalry between him and the other cats that could be driving the behaviour? Any stray cats around that might be setting him off?
 
He’s so laid back - but that could be ... I know my two boys that were raised together now are fighting- they stay in their own parts of the house ...
 
He may be laid back but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't being stressed out by the other cats in some way. Did the inappropriate behaviour start by chance when the other two boys starting fighting?
 
Are you home during the day? If so, it would be helpful to get some mid cycle tests to see what the insulin is doing for Max. Dosing is based on how low a dose takes BG..... not on pre-shot test results. The pre-shot tests tell you it's safe to give insulin and provide a gauge for how much a dose is dropping BG.
ProZinc is usually at peak action sometime between +4 and +7 hours post shot in each cycle. Each cat is different so we suggest random testing largely in that timeframe ie. test at +4 one day, +5 the next and so on. Nadir can and does move around a bit but tests in that window of time will provide a good idea of what is happening. Also we recommend getting a BG test every night before bed. It won't necessarily be in the 4-7 post shot timeframe but tests early in the cycle can provide clues as to how the cycle is going to play out.

If you are not home during the day, grab tests whenever you can. All data is good data and helps to determine how things are going and how to proceed.

I sincerely hope you can sort out Max's behavioural issues. I have an old guy who is having accidents and I know only too well, how difficult and frustrating it is to be cleaning up messes. :blackeye:
 
I must be doing something wrong .. I just took his blood and it’s 347 this is 4 hours after the .5 - I will test again right around 5/6pm
 
That's odd. What food are you feeding him?

ETA Never mind just saw the FF in initial post.

Can you feed him a little snack of the low carb FF (a couple of tsps. is all) and then test his BG again about 3 hours later please. Want to see if his pancreas is working to lower his BG by then.
 
Could I be stressing him out by wrapping him in the towel to check his sugar?? He really fights me
 
Well yes that could be stressing him out to a degree but I'd hate to think it would go up that much with the insulin on board. His BG should have dropped from the insulin. That said, if he's really stressed BG can go up 100 or more points so anything is possible.

Are you giving him a treat of some sort when testing? Most cats can be conditioned to accept testing with enough repetitive bribery.

As for the amount of food, that depends on the weight and activity level of the cat. FF 3oz. cans are roughly about 90 to 100 calories each. Not sure about the Friskies. That's a 5.5 oz can if memory serves. Two cans of Friskies sounds about right for a slightly above average size cat assuming the calories in the Friskies food are about the same as FF by volume. Diabetics often need more food than normal because they don't process the food as efficiently so it's Ok to give them a little more. It's actually best to offer multiple meals per day....two main meals and a snack or 2 in each 12 hour cycle. It helps to keep BG more stabilized.
 
Ok - I will give him a snack now ... he is acting great today though... climbing walls laying on my lap and when I rattled a bag came flying and leaped like I haven’t seen in awhile
 
I love that activity/demeanour report and that is very important stuff to pay attention to...it says a lot and is just as important as his BG numbers but his BG numbers are really puzzling. :confused:
 
I know ... the only thing is maybe he is still getting a snack somewhere ... between the animals and kids I am sure there is a crumb that I miss
 
You'll have to play Sherlock Holmes and see if you can solve the mystery.
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Is that 12 hours after this morning's shot? If I look at the timestamps on the threads here, I would think the 151 reading was roughly 9.5 hours post shot. Is that correct?

This might be your normal shot time but it's early for any insulin yet today. Earliest you could give insulin this evening would be in another 1.5 hours. That said, BG has fallen considerably and if my time calculation is right, you need to recheck BG no earlier than 11 hours post am shot to see how this cycle has played out. Right now I am still a bit flummoxed by the numbers so we need to make sure we don't jump the gun making decisions about insulin needs.
 
You are correct - I wouldn’t give any insulin until 9:30 tonight

So that was a 7/8ish after shot test
 
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