10/29 Ming + 1 = 12.6 PMPS = 86 or 4.8 (AMPS = 142, +2 = 50) reduced to 5u in PM with MC meal

One thing that NN and I think about Ming is that he doesn’t really seem to be affected by low or moderate carb foods. She mentioned once, when he was around 60, that she fed him some DM dry but didn’t see him react too much to it. But she also said it was just DM dry or maybe she didn’t feed enough.
 
Crista & Ming said:
One thing that NN and I think about Ming is that he doesn’t really seem to be affected by low or moderate carb foods. She mentioned once, when he was around 60, that she fed him some DM dry but didn’t see him react too much to it. But she also said it was just DM dry or maybe she didn’t feed enough.
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the dry takes a lot longer hit the bloodstream and affect BG. If she tested sooner then that the result is inaccurate and his carbs sensitivity is TBD yet..
I think you'll learn a lot today about his foods reaction - by testing and by feeding small amount.

What exactly is the name on the can of FF you used at +1?
I'll try to find carbs value.
 
She tested about 30 mins to an hour after she would feed him DM dry.

I mention his reaction to his food also since he ate a whole 3oz can of Fancy Feast turkey and giblets. But at the time of +1, he only ate about 75% of the can. It’s now probably 95% finished. Plus the LIBERAL tablespoon of meowmix dry and FF tuna and cheese
 
The turkey and gibs is LC I believe. But the Delights with the tuna and cheese i would assume has SOME amount of carbs.

Time for more food..? If he'll eat?
 
Ok, time for the big guns for carbs. Give a couple tsps of the gravy food, just the gravy bits if you can, if you have some corn syrup or honey, add a drop of that. Don’t overfill. He is in safe numbers still, we just don’t want him any lower.

This answers the question about six units. It’s too much. We’ll work on his new dose later.
 
Sorry, but I really need to understand: in regards with what is happening right now, if I didn't give him his insulin shot, would he have just went up from 142? Since I'm getting conflicting information. The sticky said onset happens around +2. But there's a chance that it still happens right after a dose, right?

I also poked him lower on the back where NN said insulin absorbs better. I wonder if I kept it at the scruff if it would make any difference at all. But for consistency sake, I'll stick to poking him in the same place.
 
Crista & Ming said:
if I didn't give him his insulin shot, would he have just went up from 142? Since I'm getting conflicting information. The sticky said onset happens around +2. But there's a chance that it still happens right after a dose, right?
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He did went up when you skipped so, imho, I think he would and he should be avoiding it BC of DKA.
The sticky said onset happens around +2. But there's a chance that it still happens right after a dose, right?[/QUOTE] - "average" onset but not for every cat. I know one whose onset was at +1 or a bit earlier.
There is not enough data yet in the SS for me to understand Ming's doings.
Early drops can also be suggestive of a longer than 12h duration of the insulin potency for each shot if combined with early onset. This way 2 doses - the current and the last one work together for some time producing lows.
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
Early drops can also be suggestive of a longer than 12h duration of the insulin potency for each shot if combined with early onset. This way 2 doses - the current and the last one work together for some time producing lows.
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I saw that happening in hospital but that was when they were overdosing him in the morning. So although I saw the trend, I don't think we can use it/it doesn't mean anything.

I'm glad you are all here. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Crista & Ming said:
4.8 or 86! Ok phew.

What are my next steps?
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do not feed now.
Take a test in 45 - 60 min.
if the same / higher- do not feed. Retest in another 45 - 60.
If lower give 2 Tea spoons of the gravy alone. Post right away.
Wendy might have different idea - listen to her over me please, she is a pro.

@Crista & Ming ETA: since we are not sure what carbs is in your FF Delights please take a test 45 min later rather than 1 hour. Gravy sounds HC to the american ear. But 1) you are in CA, foods vary, and 2) I have seen cheese/ gravy cat foods which nonetheless were lower than 6% carbs. It won't be enough for right now - more like 12-15%. Let 's learn sooner were he is.
 
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Crista & Ming said:
Sorry, but I really need to understand: in regards with what is happening right now, if I didn't give him his insulin shot, would he have just went up from 142?
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most likely however you never know. You are starting to build a new history right now. A lot of discovery happening these past few days.
Onset varies from cat to cat. Learning when Lantus onset occurs is important. Since you are not starting from scratch here, it makes it trickier.
 
Crista & Ming said:
Sorry, but I really need to understand: in regards with what is happening right now, if I didn't give him his insulin shot, would he have just went up from 142? Since I'm getting conflicting information. The sticky said onset happens around +2. But there's a chance that it still happens right after a dose, right?
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The other possibility with a late nadir cat is that he nadired around +14. I did spot the occasional +13 nadir with Neko.

If he's asking for food, you could give a couple tsps of LC, but otherwise hold off on food. The LC food can help him surf or hang out in the nice number range he's in now.

911 is for medical emergencies. It's a bit overused around here. Some people use it to gain attention, but once you have eyes on you, it should be removed.
 
Crista & Ming said:
How do you deal with a late nadir cat?
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Not much different really that a nadir anywhere else. You learn the onset and typical nadir times and try to figure out duration to help guide you in the best times to test. With Neko, her onset was also a little later. I could shoot low numbers and know I had some time before onset. We still dose Lantus by how low the dose takes the cat, doesn't really matter when in the cycle that is. The advantage of those really later nadirs around preshot, is that you are usually home for the low points of the cycle.
 
I found this

In order to illustrate the calculations below, the following values are used:

• Protein: 9,5%
• Fat: 5,0%
• Fibre: 0,5%
• Ash: 2,0%
• Moisture: 82,0%

1. In order to calculate the carbs on a wet matter basis:

• Add up the % values for protein, fat, fibre, ash and moisture
• Subtract the total from 100
• The difference is the percent carbs on a wet matter basis

Using the values in the example above:

• 9.5 + 5.0 + 0.5 + 2.0 + 82 = 99
• 100 – 99 = 1
• Wet matter carbs: 1.0%
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So if my calculator is correct, it's 3.5 % carb on a wet matter basis. What da heck lol

NOPE! Don't listen to me. Lemme do the step three that @Tanya and Ducia just posted
 
I never used the Canadian food list. It is ages old, plenty of time for manufacturers to change their formulas. A large majority of what is on Dr. Lisa's food list is available here. Plus I mostly fed raw. I got the nutrional break down from Red Dog/Blue Kat if you are interested in any of their raw foods. They are all low carb, mostly in the 3-5% range. Some are higher phosphorus than others.

The GA or guaranteed analysis on the side of the can only tells you minimums, not actuals. You need either the DM (dry matter basis) or As-Fed numbers.

For high carb foods, any of the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers are high carb, though contain wheat and as I discovered, can cause GI upset. There are high carb foods with carbs from potatoes. Weruva's Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20%. And some of their Cats in the Kitchen pouches are lower HC.
 
If my calculations are correct, it's around 19% carbs.

Wendy&Neko said:
For high carb foods, any of the Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers are high carb, though contain wheat and as I discovered, can cause GI upset. There are high carb foods with carbs from potatoes. Weruva's Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20%. And some of their Cats in the Kitchen pouches are lower HC.
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Interesting! I used to avoid things like gluten, carageenan, and potatoes. I got kind of lazy after and was feeding Ming mostly FD raw and FF classics that don't have gluten and all that stuff. Sometimes, I would occasionally give him a random can for fun but I will be more careful now. Didn't know gluten can cause GI upset.

And I'll look into the foods with potatoes. There's that one Canadian brand that looks AMAZING but turns out, they used potato so that's why I don't buy it. I also don't know if he'll eat any of the non-gluten foods but it'll be good to have on hand.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Weruva's Grandma's Chicken Soup is over 20%.
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You mentioned that before and I looked into it - seems like a good product but it $2 per 2.8oz can here.
Given that only a portion of it will be used for steering up it's a bit too much for me, had to stick with FF Gravy Lovers or Grilled.
 
Hopefully he's not bouncing..??? I never know with this cat.

Tanya and Ducia said:
You mentioned that before and I looked into it - seems like a good product but it $2 per 2.8oz can here.
Given that only a portion of it will be used for steering up it's a bit too much for me, had to stick with FF Gravy Lovers or Grilled.
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Weruva is darn $$$ haha. But what a great food.
 
I'm still a little confused about bouncing honestly. NN and vets call it rebounding but it's the same thing, I know.

How many points in what duration = bouncing?
 
Crista & Ming said:
Didn't know gluten can cause GI upset.
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Depends on the cat, some are fine with it. Mine wasn't. As for that Canadian brand, if you are talking about First Mate, most of their foods are high carb. It's unfortunately as most of the rest of the food in their is all organic meat. Not sure if you can get really small cans of that food, though you could always open it and freeze half right away for use later. They would be a suitable option for HC. We also had a couple members feeding raw experiment with making their own HC gravy by adding rice flour or potato flour.

@Tanya and Ducia The Cats in the Kitchen pouches are small quantities, which is why I used them.

Bouncing is a reaction to lower numbers than they are used to, or fast drops. Duration isn't part of the equation.
 
Crista & Ming said:
7.2 or 132 right now
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Crista & Ming said:
Hopefully he's not bouncing..??? I never know with this cat.
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Ok, he is going up. It could be a bounce starting.
If he is hungry feed a little LC. If not - do not offer. I would take a test in 60 - min again to make sure he stays safe.

If he is higher then take a pokey break until afternoon. The suspicion of Ming being late nadir cat is very legit and you 'll need to test to catch any late drops before they take over.
 
Yes, First Mate! I bought some when I noticed them on the shelves. He didn't really love it. Ate sometimes only. His appetite is different nowadays though so he might eat it.

Wendy&Neko said:
Bouncing is a reaction to lower numbers than they are used to, or fast drops. Duration isn't part of the equation.
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Ah, I see. If he doesn't have any sudden spikes then we can safely say he's not bouncing. :)

Edit: Oh. Nevermind. Just read Tanya's post hahaha.
 
Crista & Ming said:
If he doesn't have any sudden spikes then we can safely say he's not bouncing.
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ECID, cats bounce differently too. For some people with well regulated cats, a high blue might be a bounce, for overly dramatic cats, it might mean entering the black zone. Neko used to delay her bounces as bit. The start of the third cycle after her low event or drop was when she hit her peak. Most react strongly right away. Test and learn what Ming does.
 
I'm looking at his SS while he was on PZI. That one time he went hypo, by the end of the cycle, he was black. But that's PZI.

Then that one time in hospital on Lantus, he on 10/24 PM, he went up fast. But I was also panic-loading him carbs. And he was in hospital.

This was probably the most conservative I've been when feeding him during a low.
 
10/21 PM was when NN was watching him and she feeds him slowly and not crazy like me. She said she would feed about a 1 tsp of dry. That was also when he had active pancreatitis.

Sorry, no, he didn't have pancreatitis anymore but we were trying to break his glucose toxicity.
 
Crista & Ming said:
This was probably the most conservative I've been when feeding him during a low.
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record all foods in the Remarks in the SS.
You can look at it later in the similar situation.
If it is only LC that you have at home then adding a few drops of honey or karo will help.
Or, perhaps, you can get hold of high quality maple syrup - it's a natural product and is better than gluten loaded gravy or karo (GM corn),
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
Or, perhaps, you can get hold of high quality maple syrup
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We are both in Canada - no problem getting good maple syrup. :) BTW Crista, karo is the US brand name for corn syrup. As both Sandy and Tanya suggested, putting down quantities and times of extra food will help you in the future. I used to put something like "2 tsp HC plus drop syrup @+4". Then I could track what impact that feeding had on the numbers the next time I was facing lower numbers.
 
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