? 12/21 Silver AMPS 139 PMPS 459!!! Following SLGS to the letter and yet still seems to be wrong?

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Juliet

Member Since 2017
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-20-silver-amps-311-pmps-319-still-pink.188319/


Okay so he gave me a nice blue 139 today - took his time but you were right @Tracey&Jones but I am about to go to work in 20 mins and could not give him the full dose and leave for 12 hours and I also didnt want to skip after what happened 4 cycles ago - so I gave him a reduced dose of 0.5u.

Did I reduce too much?
Am I going to see an awful high because of the reduced dose - is that going to act the same as a skipped dose or is it slightly better?

I am hoping I havent messed him up for the NEXT four cycles but I am glad to see this dose is moving him in the right direction. I have two more day to work and then I am off for the next 8 cycles (isnt it awful we think of Christmas holidays in terms of testing cycles??

Anyway.....advice please....was this a wise decision?

@Chris & China
@Wendy&Neko
@Marje and Gracie
@Stacy & Asia

Tagging those that have been following his progress.

Thanks guys.
 
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Nice AMPS. I am not a dose wizard but I like that Silver got some juice vs. no juice. He will still have the depot to help him out today. He will most likely bounce too.:oops::(

Wondering if he went lower last night or if he just cleared the bounce? Too bad it is a workday...there might of been some interesting test results today. That is life though.

BTW: congrats at shooting...even if it was a lower dose. :woot:
 
Nice AMPS. I am not a dose wizard but I like that Silver got some juice vs. no juice. He will still have the depot to help him out today. He will most likely bounce too.:oops::(

Wondering if he went lower last night or if he just cleared the bounce? Too bad it is a workday...there might of been some interesting test results today. That is life though.

BTW: congrats at shooting...even if it was a lower dose. :woot:
I wonder if he might not bounce quite so high? I’m home tonight and can risk shooting if low although I do have to go out for a couple hrs after shooting but nothing usually happens then anyways.
 
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Well, I'm not Chris, Marje, Wendy, or Stacy but I hope my input will suffice. I'm going to be the pain in the neck -- and I'm going to make what I hope are logical suggestions.

Shooting a reduced dose is fine. However, there's no guarantee that the depot won't kick in. There's no way to be absolutely sure that you will see the results you want, even if you were to skip the shot, during the cycle in question. Sometimes shooting a reduced shot works. Sometimes you see the effect the next cycle. (Welcome to the wonderful world of long acting, depot type insulin.)

The best way to have a handle on what does or doesn't happen with YOUR cat is to base your decision on the data. When you shot the 166 on 12/12, the numbers didn't drop. What I'd urge you to think about is what pre-shot number would you be comfortable shooting, especially on a work day. Gradually, and based on your experience, keep working that number down so that you're more comfortable with shooting lower numbers. With Lantus, often shooting low will give you a flat cycle. Shooting low is hard for everyone. We encourage you to have a healthy respect for what the implications of low numbers can mean but not to be so scared that your kitty ends up losing momentum and spends more time than necessary in higher ranges. It's hard to develop a comfort level with lower numbers when you are gone for 12 hours. Do what you can on evenings, weekends, holidays, etc. so you can collect the data that you need.

I do have to go out for a couple hrs after shooting nothingbususlky happens then anyways.
Please don't let Silver hear you say that! The minute you think you know what your kitty is going to do, you'll get handed a surprise. It's what they do!

 
I wonder if he might not bounce quite so high

That is the hope! His body is learning that being in those lower numbers is not a bad thing.

The depot was not drained as much so hopefully it will restore back to the original dose level quicker. With Lantus, stabilizing the depot will help in the long run in bringing numbers down and keeping them fairly flat. That is what Sienne is talking about in the post above.

It is a balancing act with Lantus of what you are comfortable with, keeping kitty safe as well as keeping that depot stabilized. It all comes with knowing Silver, which takes time and testing!

:bighug: Silver and you are getting there.
 
I hope it works out for you. Like Sienne said, you may not see what you want to see until the next cycle. Usually if I was nervous about Rex dropping while I was working, I would give higher carbs for his breakfast and cross my fingers. It always worked well. ECID!!
 
Well, I'm not Chris, Marje, Wendy, or Stacy but I hope my input will suffice. I'm going to be the pain in the neck -- and I'm going to make what I hope are logical suggestions.

Shooting a reduced dose is fine. However, there's no guarantee that the depot won't kick in. There's no way to be absolutely sure that you will see the results you want, even if you were to skip the shot, during the cycle in question. Sometimes shooting a reduced shot works. Sometimes you see the effect the next cycle. (Welcome to the wonderful world of long acting, depot type insulin.)

The best way to have a handle on what does or doesn't happen with YOUR cat is to base your decision on the data. When you shot the 166 on 12/12, the numbers didn't drop. What I'd urge you to think about is what pre-shot number would you be comfortable shooting, especially on a work day. Gradually, and based on your experience, keep working that number down so that you're more comfortable with shooting lower numbers. With Lantus, often shooting low will give you a flat cycle. Shooting low is hard for everyone. We encourage you to have a healthy respect for what the implications of low numbers can mean but not to be so scared that your kitty ends up losing momentum and spends more time than necessary in higher ranges. It's hard to develop a comfort level with lower numbers when you are gone for 12 hours. Do what you can on evenings, weekends, holidays, etc. so you can collect the data that you need.


Please don't let Silver hear you say that! The minute you think you know what your kitty is going to do, you'll get handed a surprise. It's what they do!
Thanks. Totally agree with what you said. I have 45 mind between getting up and getting out the door in the mornings so I have to make a quick decision in the moment. I am trying so hard to follow SLGS (which woukd have meant no shot under 150) but I saw what that did last time so gave a reduced dose. Me shooting the full dose when he was at 166 on 12/12 was because I knew I was going to be home all evening. I really don’t know what number I feel safe shooting and leaving 12 hrs. I definitely wouldn’t shoot green and go. And low blues likely I’d reduce dose. Evenings I’m happier to shoot green or low blue. I know. Likely messing him up but doing the best I can to keep him safe. Thanks for input. Much appreciated.
 
I hope it works out for you. Like Sienne said, you may not see what you want to see until the next cycle. Usually if I was nervous about Rex dropping while I was working, I would give higher carbs for his breakfast and cross my fingers. It always worked well. ECID!!
Yeah there’s no way I’d shoot full dose on a low number and leave. Just couldn’t do it. I’d be scared all day. I want the low numbers but scared now I’m seeing them.
 
Well, I'm not Chris, Marje, Wendy, or Stacy but I hope my input will suffice. I'm going to be the pain in the neck -- and I'm going to make what I hope are logical suggestions.

Shooting a reduced dose is fine. However, there's no guarantee that the depot won't kick in. There's no way to be absolutely sure that you will see the results you want, even if you were to skip the shot, during the cycle in question. Sometimes shooting a reduced shot works. Sometimes you see the effect the next cycle. (Welcome to the wonderful world of long acting, depot type insulin.)

The best way to have a handle on what does or doesn't happen with YOUR cat is to base your decision on the data. When you shot the 166 on 12/12, the numbers didn't drop. What I'd urge you to think about is what pre-shot number would you be comfortable shooting, especially on a work day. Gradually, and based on your experience, keep working that number down so that you're more comfortable with shooting lower numbers. With Lantus, often shooting low will give you a flat cycle. Shooting low is hard for everyone. We encourage you to have a healthy respect for what the implications of low numbers can mean but not to be so scared that your kitty ends up losing momentum and spends more time than necessary in higher ranges. It's hard to develop a comfort level with lower numbers when you are gone for 12 hours. Do what you can on evenings, weekends, holidays, etc. so you can collect the data that you need.


Please don't let Silver hear you say that! The minute you think you know what your kitty is going to do, you'll get handed a surprise. It's what they do!
Hi. I looked again. On 12/12 when he didn’t come down much - he was at 8.4 at + 4. His nadir is usually + 7 so he MAY have gone under 5 and earned a reduction. So hard to tell as I couldn’t stay up late. Really hoping my reduced dose hasn’t messed him up but I’m not doing TR.
 
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Hi. I looked again. On 12/12 when he didn’t come down much - he was at 8.4 at + 4. His nadir is usually + 7 so he MAY have gone under 5 and earned a reduction. So hard to tell as I couldn’t stay up late. Really hoping my reduced dose hasn’t messed him up but I’m not doing TR.
It’s behind you so just learn any lessons you can moving forward.

I agree with everything @Sienne and Gabby (GA) said. Also remember that you can always leave food out for him (forgive me if you are one that can’t because of other cats; I can’t always remember who can do it and who can’t :blackeye:) but now that I said that I think I remember you can’t because of the other cat(s).

One of the very experienced members here once told me that stalling, shooting BCS shots, and skipping (unless kitty doesn’t come up above 50 to shoot) are usually for the member and not the cat. Very true and when you haven’t quite got the data yet to know whether you can trust your cat and what you know, I can see why it would make more sense to do one of those things. The bottom line is that you have to be able to go to work and not worry that he’s going to hypo but learning more about his patterns will help you shoot more confidently.

I know those that work are probably already getting up early but is there a way to adjust your schedule (e.g. get up earlier) so that you might be able to get a +1.5 or +2 before you go to work? That’s worked for others before.
 
It’s behind you so just learn any lessons you can moving forward.

I agree with everything @Sienne and Gabby (GA) said. Also remember that you can always leave food out for him (forgive me if you are one that can’t because of other cats; I can’t always remember who can do it and who can’t :blackeye:) but now that I said that I think I remember you can’t because of the other cat(s).

One of the very experienced members here once told me that stalling, shooting BCS shots, and skipping (unless kitty doesn’t come up above 50 to shoot) are usually for the member and not the cat. Very true and when you haven’t quite got the data yet to know whether you can trust your cat and what you know, I can see why it would make more sense to do one of those things. The bottom line is that you have to be able to go to work and not worry that he’s going to hypo but learning more about his patterns will help you shoot more confidently.

I know those that work are probably already getting up early but is there a way to adjust your schedule (e.g. get up earlier) so that you might be able to get a +1.5 or +2 before you go to work? That’s worked for others before.
Thanks for this. Unfortunately you’re right - I can’t leave food out nor get up earlier. I’m up at 5:15am as it is and out the door by 6am. I try and stay up late to get. +4 but even that is hard as I am up so early. Just means I never catch his nadir until Saturday. I guess I just have to make a judgement call when I see that low AMPS. I will never have more data than I currently have so this is very difficult. I thought I’d be safe and he would get good numbers by closely following SLGS (which would have meant skipping today) but it seems when I skip or shoot a BCS his number go up. I can’t risk shooting a full dose on a low blue and leave for 12 hours so I am caught between a rock and a hard place and I don’t know what to do for the best. :arghh::arghh: Fully expecting a red or pink when I get home. Am on train now so will be testing in an hour.
 
I'm probably one of the people Marje was thinking about when it came to shifting my schedule. I would shoot at 5:00 but didn't need to leave until 7:30 so I could get a couple of tests. It was helpful to get those early tests since Gabby had an early nadir. All you can do if you can't move around your shot times is use weekends, holidays, evenings, sick days, etc. to get spot checks so you can fill in some of the white spaces on your spreadsheet. The bottom line though is that any opportunity to gather data is useful.

One other possibility is if there's a way to isolate Silver on a day when numbers are a bit lower so you could leave food out. The other expensive option is that there are feeders that come with a microchip so only the kitty with the collar that has the matching chip can get into the feeder. That also presumes that if Silver's numbers are dropping that your kitty will go to the feeder.
 
I don't know. You see red's after blues. I think he clears in 2-3 cycles. I think he may have hit blue/low yellow on the afternoon of the 19th. Keep getting data, the pattern will become clearer.

I have the microchip feeders for all 4 of my kitties. Saved my sanity - I have FD Jones, KD Kitty, The Hoover - Libby and Missy (I will anything but my own food). They get their food and it is available to eat according to their own eating styles.

I had issues in the beginning about Jones eating but once he was comfortable with eat, he has no issues going there.
 
I'm probably one of the people Marje was thinking about when it came to shifting my schedule. I would shoot at 5:00 but didn't need to leave until 7:30 so I could get a couple of tests. It was helpful to get those early tests since Gabby had an early nadir. All you can do if you can't move around your shot times is use weekends, holidays, evenings, sick days, etc. to get spot checks so you can fill in some of the white spaces on your spreadsheet. The bottom line though is that any opportunity to gather data is useful.

One other possibility is if there's a way to isolate Silver on a day when numbers are a bit lower so you could leave food out. The other expensive option is that there are feeders that come with a microchip so only the kitty with the collar that has the matching chip can get into the feeder. That also presumes that if Silver's numbers are dropping that your kitty will go to the feeder.
I wish. I am on a very tight budget and can barely afford the strips as it is. More testing is more strips I cant afford. As expected, Silver was a nasty high red tonight (459) and I just dont understand what to do. I am following SLGS and did exactly what it said to do. In fact SLGS would have had me skip altogether. Given tonight's number, you'd think I should have shot the full dose - but how on earth can I shoot a full dose on a low blue - in faith that he won't hypo when I am gone the next 12 hours? I just can't take that risk. So now he is messed up for the next few cycles even tho I did give him a dose. I don't know what my options are and I certainly don't understand SLGS anymore as I am doing all it says to do. Am stuck and so upset. I am trying to follow the instructions and still his numbers are all over the place. Given the data I have and my situation - what would you have done this morning if it was your cat?
 
I don't know. You see red's after blues. I think he clears in 2-3 cycles. I think he may have hit blue/low yellow on the afternoon of the 19th. Keep getting data, the pattern will become clearer.

I have the microchip feeders for all 4 of my kitties. Saved my sanity - I have FD Jones, KD Kitty, The Hoover - Libby and Missy (I will anything but my own food). They get their food and it is available to eat according to their own eating styles.

I had issues in the beginning about Jones eating but once he was comfortable with eat, he has no issues going there.
I can't get any more data than I am getting - four tests at most a day is all I can do. I definitely can't afford microchip feeders. I can't afford ordinary feeders. I am cutting my own grocery budget down to just $20 a week just so I can buy strips, syringes, insulin and treats.
 
Everyone here does the best he or she can do. Managing diabetes isn't cheap. If you're using the least expensive strips possible, that may be the best you can do. Likewise, some foods are low carb and less expensive than others. I'd also encourage you to look in the Supply Closet forum to see if people are donating supplies that you could use.

 
Don't think of it as chickening out, but rather a chance to experiment and gather data. SLGS would not have you skip altogether once you have some data. Remember that trite saying, this is a marathon, not a sprint. :bighug:

And most importantly, how is Silver feeling/doing? A cat is way more than his numbers.
Silver’s doing great! Apart from the weight loss he is happy and purring and still playing. The B13 I’m giving him this one has prevented the neuropathy he had last time.

Problem is - I don’t know how to interpret the data. I don’t know what it’s saying. And at shot time I have to stay on schedule so can’t stall and wait for advice. What does SLGS say to do now I have data? I was following the attached. But I also read this bit:

With experience, you may find that lowering these thresholds may work well for your cat. When you have reached that stage, the following guidelines are suggested for Lantus and Levemir users following the Start Low Go Slow approach:

If the preshot number is far below usual preshot numbers:
  • Do you need to stay on schedule? Then skip the shot.
  • Do you have some flexibility with your schedule? Then stalling to wait for the number to rise might be a good option. Don't feed, retest after 30-60 minutes, and decide if the number is shootable.
  • Repeat until the cat either reaches a number at which you are comfortable shooting, or enough time has passed that skipping the shot is necessary.

So I did more than this said - I had to stay on schedule but shot 25% of his dose. Obviously that was the wrong thing. But what if I’d shot full dose? I’d feel that I was taking a huge risk and irresponsible? I am just so not sure what to do. At least I only have one more day then off for four and I am hoping in a few cycles that my Saturday am he may give me a low blue again. Then I’d shoot full dose AND do a curve. Then I’d really know what shooting anyway does. Does that make sense? Let’s hope for hat low blue Saturday. Right @Tracey&Jones ??
 

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All you can do if you can't move around your shot times is use weekends, holidays, evenings, sick days, etc. to get spot checks so you can fill in some of the white spaces on your spreadsheet. The bottom line though is that any opportunity to gather data is useful.
This is paramount with your current work schedule. I do not blame you for not shooting b full; dose this AM not having the data needed. Don't stress, keep doing what you are doing and hopefully, you'll get the data necessary to give you the confidence to shoot some lower numbers with full dose that you have not shot before. And I like the idea to isolate Silver in a bathroom with food and a litter box when and if you shoot some lower numbers and need to make sure he is safe.

Hang in there, sweetie!
 
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This is paramount with your current work schedule. I do not blame you for not shooting b full; dose this AM not having the data needed. Don't stress, keep doing what you are doing and hopefully, you'll get the data necessary to give you the confidence to shoot some lower numbers with full dose that you have not shot before. And I like the idea to isolate Silver in a bathroom with food and a litter box when and if you shoot some lower numbers and need to make sure he is safe.

Hang in there, sweetie!

Thanks. Hanging in.
Can’t really isolate him as I live in a one bedroom basement. They have the run of the bedroom and living room. Bathroom is soooo tiny - barely room for me to turn around. Would hate to leave him in there. Separating him from his sister would create mayhem. If Silver can’t find Sasha for more than a few mins he howls the place down. They are my sweet babies tho.
 

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Thanks. Hanging in.
Can’t really isolate him as I live in a one bedroom basement. They have the run of the bedroom and living room. Bathroom is soooo tiny - barely room for me to turn around. Would hate to leave him in there. Separating him from his sister would create mayhem. If Silver can’t find Sasha for more than a few mins he howls the place down. They are my sweet babies tho.
Could you leave food for them both? That's what I do for my guys. I had to set Forrest up on the same schedule as Bubba feeding wise. Actually, my dogs arwe on the same schedule as the cat.....how can you feed 2 cats and not the dogs???? LOL
 
Could you leave food for them both? That's what I do for my guys. I had to set Forrest up on the same schedule as Bubba feeding wise. Actually, my dogs arwe on the same schedule as the cat.....how can you feed 2 cats and not the dogs???? LOL
Sasha is overweight and on a strict diet. They actually don’t want or ask for midday food. They’ve never been free fed and are happy with two meals a day. If I left any food down at all (the one day I had to leave them 24 hrs before he was diagnosed) he ate the entire amount I left him before I’d left the house!
 
Sasha is overweight and on a strict diet. They actually don’t want or ask for midday food. They’ve never been free fed and are happy with two meals a day. If I left any food down at all (the one day I had to leave them 24 hrs before he was diagnosed) he ate the entire amount I left him before I’d left the house!
It is problematic with cats and different issues. Hugs. Just do the best you can as you have been doing....

Juliet, what meter are you using? Just asking to see if we can find you a meter with cheaper strips. And where are you located?
 
It is problematic with cats and different issues. Hugs. Just do the best you can as you have been doing....

Juliet, what meter are you using? Just asking to see if we can find you a meter with cheaper strips. And where are you located?
I’m using an acccheck Aviva which is really bad as I’ve gone through two in two months. They suddenly decide not to turn on just when I have a droplet of blood all ready. @Chris & China has put me in touch with someone from DCIN who has just sent me a new meter and 100 strips. Should get them soon. I think she said it was a freestyle? Wondering what a new meter will do to his readings. Will it be the same?
 
I’m using an acccheck Aviva which is really bad as I’ve gone through two in two months. They suddenly decide not to turn on just when I have a droplet of blood all ready. @Chris & China has put me in touch with someone from DCIN who has just sent me a new meter and 100 strips. Should get them soon. I think she said it was a freestyle? Wondering what a new meter will do to his readings. Will it be the same?
Free style meter strips are quite pricy. Relion meter strips from Walmart are quite cheap. My mom uses Freestyle and thank goodness she has military privileges along with her medicare to get them cheaper. Where are you located?

I did a comparison with my mom's freestyle and my Relion Prime and the difference was abut 18 points. The Freestyle was 18 pts. higher. And that was in normal ranges so, not sure if the numbers are in higher ranges.
 
Free style meter strips are quite pricy. Relion meter strips from Walmart are quite cheap. My mom uses Freestyle and thank goodness she has military privileges along with her medicare to get them cheaper. Where are you located?

I did a comparison with my mom's freestyle and my Relion Prime and the difference was abut 18 points. The Freestyle was 18 pts. higher. And that was in normal ranges so, not sure if the numbers are in higher ranges.
I’m in Canada
 
Yes several but I don’t have funds to buy a new meter. Especially as there is a new one on its way to me.
Keep in mind the meter cost is very minimal. The strips for Freestyle are pricy. The meter cost will pay for itself many times over in a short time with the cost of the strips. For instance, Relion Prime strips are about $17 for 100 strips. Free styles strips average about 1.85 a strip. I would take the free meter and strips but before you run out, get a Relion Prime meter, very cheap, maybe 15 bucks.....do the math.
 
Keep in mind the meter cost is very minimal. The strips for Freestyle are pricy. The meter cost will pay for itself many times over in a short time with the cost of the strips. For instance, Relion Prime strips are about $17 for 100 strips. Free styles strips average about 1.85 a strip. I would take the free meter and strips but before you run out, get a Relion Prime meter, very cheap, maybe 15 bucks.....do the math.
Those are US amounts tho right? In Canada strips are much much more expensive but our insulin is cheap (only $80 a vial) I’d be very very surprised if a Canadian Walmart stocks strips of any kind less than $80 for 100 strips. I used to buy my Aviva strips in Walmart. Now I get on eBay “buy it now” and they are shipped free from India. $27 for 50 strips.
 
I just found some Freestyle strips online for 26.84 for 50.
Those are US amounts tho right? In Canada strips are much much more expensive but our insulin is cheap (only $80 a vial) I’d be very very surprised if a Canadian Walmart stocks strips of any kind less than $80 for 100 strips. I used to buy my Aviva strips in Walmart. Now I get on eBay “buy it now” and they are shipped free from India. $27 for 50 strips.
It's worth investigating how much Relion Prime strips would be. There are other Relion meters, Confirm and Micro but in the US the Prime are the cheapest.
 
Looking again. Took post down coz I’m still looking. I saw a 2009 post saying not available. Really will be surprised tho. Sooooo expensive here. But insulin for you in the US is crazy bad.
 
Looking again. Took post down coz I’m still looking. I saw a 2009 post saying not available. Really will be surprised tho. Sooooo expensive here. But insulin for you in the US is crazy bad.
You have to weigh in all out. The price of the meters are usually minimal. It's the strips that are crazy expensive. I am glad that Chris could hook you up with a free meter and some strips. I shouldn't kick a gift horse in the mouth. Just investigate what meters and strips are available to you and the cost of the strips. Eventually, you might be able to get a meter and strips more affordable.
 
four tests at most a day is all I can do

Sorry I was unclear - I meant getting more days under your belt -not necessarily more tests in per day.

We will see, by Saturday we will have four cycles of 1.75u - the depot should be very close to recovering, that will also be 3 cycles from the red. Saturday...I am thinking he will clear the bounce. If he is high and flat on Friday night - I would be on alert for a downward trend during the day. If he is high and flat during Saturday morning...I would look for the downward trend on Saturday night. Might be worth to stay up and test a bit if that was the case.

Keep the faith. Wendy is right - how is Silver feeling? He is way more than just his numbers.

And please keep saying to yourself....This is not an exact science and I am doing the best I can!
 
Love your photos, those little cuddle bears!

You got a blue preshot, maybe there was a bounce in there, but you still got a blue, there will be more! I don't blame you for being torn what to do and not wanting to skip a shot but knowing you wouldn't be home all day. He will get over the depot blip, he may not have gotten over a hypo if it happened. Hang in there, Juliet, you both are working hard and it will show up on the SS eventually. :bighug:
 
I also think you are doing the best you can do, Juliet. Follow your gut. He might have been high today but you would have worried yourself all day if you had shot a full dose.

:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
@Juliet Would a timed feeder help if you had one? You won't know who ate the food but if food would be available hopefully Silver would eat some of it & that might ease some of your worry about him going to low when you aren't home. Low carb canned food wouldn't be bad for Sasha's diet either. Just asking because if it would help I have an extra one I could mail to you.
 
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@Juliet Would a timed feeder help if you had one? You won't know who ate the food but if food would be available hopefully Silver would eat some of it & that might ease some of your worry about him going to low when you aren't home. Low carb canned food wouldn't be bad for Sasha's diet either. Just asking because if it would help I have an extra one I could mail to you.
Oh that’s a lovely offer. Thank you. I would like to stick to the two feedings a day tho. I’m just not going to shoot full dose on a low number if it’s a working day. Today’s experience has shown me that I could have given a higher reduced dose but I would still reduce a bit if lower than usual if I was gone all day.
 
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