Update and Hello - 1st BG Curve!

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PPCW

PPCW

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Hello!

This is my first post but have been reading since late April when my cat, Coby, was diagnosed. After the diagnosis, I changed his diet to very low carb wet food only and was able to lower his BG from 450s to 35os (home tests). He started insulin (prozinc, 1.2 units, 12/12) yesterday and I just finished the first BG curve at home today.

I think the numbers for the first curve looked OK but what do you think? Does it show bouncing because there is a >50% drop at nadir? The curve looks like a smile though. Since the PM BG is 214 mg/dL, I gave him another 1.2 units after feeding.

Thank you for all of your valuable insights!

Patricia & Coby
 
PPCW said:
Hello!

This is my first post but have been reading since late April when my cat, Coby, was diagnosed. After the diagnosis, I changed his diet to very low carb wet food only and was able to lower his BG from 450s to 35os (home tests). He started insulin (prozinc, 1.2 units, 12/12) yesterday and I just finished the first BG curve at home today.

I think the numbers for the first curve looked OK but what do you think? Does it show bouncing because there is a >50% drop at nadir? The curve looks like a smile though. Since the PM BG is 214 mg/dL, I gave him another 1.2 units after feeding.

Thank you for all of your valuable insights!

Patricia & Coby
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This is a really nice curve! I suggest you test again at +2 or +3 this evening to get an idea of where he's heading. I say this because your PMPS was lower than the AMPS. How was a dose of 1.2 units arrived at ? Are you using U100 syringes?
 
Hi Kris,

The high AM number was probably due to a fur shot last night (too nervous). I will be testing him again PMPS+2 in a bit. The 1.2 unit was given by the vet based on 0.2 units/kg. I am using the U40 syringe and it is not easy to get a 1.2! I will probably switch to U100 because it will convert to 3.
 
Not a bad curve at all :). Make sure to get U-100 syringes with half unit markings. If you're in the states, most Walmart pharmacies do carry them. Do you plan to keep updating your Spreadsheet? :smuggrin:
 
Good morning,

The overnight numbers are not so good. Although he received 1.2 units for PMPS with BG 214, the number just got higher and higher and ending with 411 this morning which I haven't seen for quite a while. Yikes :confused:. Is this considered bouncing? I was very sure prozinc went in last night. I can't do a daytime curve today but will try another nighttime one.

Yong said:
Not a bad curve at all :). Make sure to get U-100 syringes with half unit markings. If you're in the states, most Walmart pharmacies do carry them. Do you plan to keep updating your Spreadsheet? :smuggrin:
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I will check out Walmart. Thanks Yong!
 
Most important are the AMPS and PMPS, the extra tests in between will help us see what the dose is doing :). Could be what I call a delayed bounce, my boy has done them before :cat:
 
PPCW said:
Good morning,

The overnight numbers are not so good. Although he received 1.2 units for PMPS with BG 214, the number just got higher and higher and ending with 411 this morning which I haven't seen for quite a while. Yikes :confused:. Is this considered bouncing? I was very sure prozinc went in last night. I can't do a daytime curve today but will try another nighttime one.



I will check out Walmart. Thanks Yong!
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Yes, that's bouncing. o_O:) He's not accustomed to those lovely low blue numbers and his body is compensating by dumping glucose (from a stored form in his liver) into his bloodstream. A bounce can take up to 6 cycles to stop. It's part of the process and very common. Try not to fret.

Stick with the 1.2 u for now - MUCH easier to draw up in a U100 syringe.
 
I know it's tough to see those higher numbers, but the good news about a bounce is that you know the insulin is working!
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Yes, that's bouncing. o_O:) He's not accustomed to those lovely low blue numbers and his body is compensating by dumping glucose (from a stored form in his liver) into his bloodstream. A bounce can take up to 6 cycles to stop. It's part of the process and very common. Try not to fret.

Stick with the 1.2 u for now - MUCH easier to draw up in a U100 syringe.
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Yes, I will keep track of his numbers to see how his body reacts! I will be able to do midpoint checks between errands today and another night time check as well. Coby has been so patient (and purrs) with all the sticks in his ears.

Rachel said:
I know it's tough to see those higher numbers, but the good news about a bounce is that you know the insulin is working!
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I hope he puts weight on soon. He is so thin :(....
 
How much and when are you feeding? Diabetics, especially before they are regulated, do need a lot of calories, so you can really feed as much and as often as he wants until his weight gets into a healthier range.

Now that I've said that, has your vet given any suggested weight? I think Sam looks too skinny now, but that's in comparison to how chubby he was when he was diagnosed. The vet assures me he could lose even a little bit more and be just fine. :cat:
 
Djamila said:
How much and when are you feeding? Diabetics, especially before they are regulated, do need a lot of calories, so you can really feed as much and as often as he wants until his weight gets into a healthier range.

Now that I've said that, has your vet given any suggested weight? I think Sam looks too skinny now, but that's in comparison to how chubby he was when he was diagnosed. The vet assures me he could lose even a little bit more and be just fine. :cat:
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He was 14lbs (chubby) before the onset of observable physical symptoms (i.e. increase food/water/pee) then dropped to 12.6 and the appetite was poor. Once I switched him to low carb food, I was able to feed him enough to get the weight up to 12.8 and stable but bony. The suggested weight from a vet before was the low 13s. He also lost a lot of fur which I hope will grow back once he is regulated.

The feeding schedule is 3 times a day. I would like to feed him more smaller meals but I am not home in the mornings. I also can't leave food out because the 1 year old kitten along with the 2 year old will just gobble everything up!
 
Generally, as they become regulated, the physical symptoms start to go away. The fur should grow back then.

You could try freezing some food and leaving it out to thaw...that way, at least no one can eat it right away. There's no guarantee which cat would eat it, but it could work...or could try a timed feeder. Again, no way to know who eats it, but at least they can't eat it right away?
 
Rachel said:
Generally, as they become regulated, the physical symptoms start to go away. The fur should grow back then.

You could try freezing some food and leaving it out to thaw...that way, at least no one can eat it right away. There's no guarantee which cat would eat it, but it could work...or could try a timed feeder. Again, no way to know who eats it, but at least they can't eat it right away?
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You have no idea what the one-year-old is capable of.... She eats EVERYTHING that smells like food (cold or not) :banghead:! She is also a big bully and pushes other cats away to get the food.

Anyway, AMPS+6 is high - back up to 352. Bouncing continues.... I will stick with the current 1.2-unit dosage for 6 cycles and hopefully see happier numbers.
 
Update from last night:

PMPS: 494
PMPS+3: 345
PMPS+6: 329
AMPS: 441

Last night's cycle looked better than the daytime cycle, at least BG declined toward the midpoint instead of going up. Will continue with 1.2 units with the morning cycle and hopefully see the same improvements!

Maybe Coby's body is starting to adjust. Fingers crossed!
 
A lot of kitties tend to run lower at night and we are not sure why o_O:confused:.
Sorry to be a pest, could you add the insulin used and meter in your Signature? Luckily we're on Prozinc forum but in case you have to post somewhere else it's good to have :).
 
Yong said:
A lot of kitties tend to run lower at night and we are not sure why o_O:confused:.
Sorry to be a pest, could you add the insulin used and meter in your Signature? Luckily we're on Prozinc forum but in case you have to post somewhere else it's good to have :).
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Will do!

Rachel said:
It's always scary when you see those high numbers!
Click to expand...

I am learning to take deep breaths and be calm when I see those numbers :cat:.
 
Update:

Last night's PMPS = 370, 1.2 units
Last night's PMPS+6 = 299
This morning's AMPS = 461, 1.2 units

Question: bounce may stop after 6 cycles. Is it 6 cycles after it starts? Also, any suggestions regarding Prozinc dosage?

Thanks!
 
PPCW said:
Update:

Last night's PMPS = 370, 1.2 units
Last night's PMPS+6 = 299
This morning's AMPS = 461, 1.2 units

Question: bounce may stop after 6 cycles. Is it 6 cycles after it starts? Also, any suggestions regarding Prozinc dosage?

Thanks!
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Usually we count cycles after the one that caused the bounce (the blues in your case). It's hard to know for sure, though, because it could be an overnight low that triggers a bounce.

I suggest you try 1.4 u starting tomorrow AM.
 
So the bounce is the part where they go from the low number to a high number, then they will often float along at those high numbers for a few cycles. Six is a rough estimate. Then there will be a more active cycle again and you know the bounce has "cleared" As the kitty get closer to a good dose, those high flat cycles usually don't last as long. If you're far away from a good dose, sometimes the bounce never really clears and you just have to increase the dose.

Some people use "bounce" to refer to that entire process. Some people use "bounce" anytime they see any number that seems weird. So we aren't always all that careful about vocabulary around here.

I think you can increase to 1.4 whenever you're ready. Or 1.5 since you're using the u40 syringes.
 
Thank you all for your comments. I think I will give 1.4 a try (I bought the U100 half unit syringes) either tonight or tomorrow morning and see how he reacts to it. Should I do a new curve with the new dose?

I also tried to leave some food for Coby out last night like Rachel suggested. I slept in the loft where the food is and purposely put it right next to me. Every time I hear eating sound, it was the kitten (Cody). She is like a fly who just can't stay away from food! Coby and the 2 yo (Cory) just can't compete :banghead:.
 
PPCW said:
Should I do a new curve with the new dose?
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I'd give the new dose a couple of cycles before doing a curve. As we often say here curves are of less use than a scattering of tests at different times in the AM/PM cycles over a few days. That gives a better picture - more like a "movie". A curve is a "snapshot" and if you do it on a bounce day, it tells you very little.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I'd give the new dose a couple of cycles before doing a curve. As we often say here curves are of less use than a scattering of tests at different times in the AM/PM cycles over a few days. That gives a better picture - more like a "movie". A curve is a "snapshot" and if you do it on a bounce day, it tells you very little.
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I see. I have been testing at AMPS, +6, and PMPS, +6. Will some random ones as well. It will also allow more flexibility in my schedule.
 
I was going to suggest moving to 1.4U too :). Got a later start today on the forum ;). You have any pictures of your civvie's? (non diabetics), we love pictures :cat:
 
Yong said:
I was going to suggest moving to 1.4U too :). Got a later start today on the forum ;). You have any pictures of your civvie's? (non diabetics), we love pictures :cat:
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IMG_1277.JPG


IMG_3831.JPG

Here you go!

Cory is the ragdoll blue point, the princess
Cody is the tuxedo, the fly, food addict, dishwasher
 
Started 1.4 units last night. It seems like his AMPS is getting higher and higher :(.

Is it the same protocol to wait ~6 cycles to consider a change of dose?
 
PPCW said:
Started 1.4 units last night. It seems like his AMPS is getting higher and higher :(.

Is it the same protocol to wait ~6 cycles to consider a change of dose?
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Could just be some bouncing. 22 June seems to be the odd day. What was your starting dose?
 
Just curious if you'd be open to trying 1.0U for a little bit (3 days)? :bookworm: As long as her ketones are negative, shouldn't hurt anything. That 22 June day is just standing out to me...
 
Why go back down to 1U? Does overdose cause bounce-like reaction? The last time he was tested at the vet, no ketone.

Also, how often should I test him to generate useful? I am basically out of the house in the mornings this week and the entire day next week.
 
Too much insulin can keep numbers higher and look like too little. Just suggesting trying the lower dose now, before you get too much higher on the increase scale. Any time you can grab a test that is off your typical testing, to help fill in blanks. All data is useful :). The decision is completely yours :bighug:
 
Yong said:
Too much insulin can keep numbers higher and look like too little. Just suggesting trying the lower dose now, before you get too much higher on the increase scale. Any time you can grab a test that is off your typical testing, to help fill in blanks. All data is useful :). The decision is completely yours :bighug:
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Thanks for explanation! If a lower dose will give a better result, I am all for it!!! Will start tonight. Let the experiment begin :cat:.
 
First 1.0 unit shot last night:

PMSP: 411
PMSP+1: 423
PMSP+3: 318
PMSP+6: 362, was going to do one more after this but just didn't wake-up.
This morning AMPS: 435

Although the number has been high, Coby seems to be more energetic in the past 2 days. Also got Zobaline and should start soon.
 
Update:

6/27 AMPS: 435
6/27 AMPS+2: 453
6/27 AMPS+6: 399
6/27 AMPS+10: 445
6/27 PMPS: 440
6/27 PMPS+2: 384
6/27 PMPS+4: 342
6/27 PMPS+6: 348
6/28 AMPS: 4: 480

Based on the data: action of 1 unit of ProZinc's doesn't last 6 hours. Plus Coby is starting to show increased food/drink/pee now. Going back to 1.2 units.
 
PPCW said:
Update:

6/27 AMPS: 435
6/27 AMPS+2: 453
6/27 AMPS+6: 399
6/27 AMPS+10: 445
6/27 PMPS: 440
6/27 PMPS+2: 384
6/27 PMPS+4: 342
6/27 PMPS+6: 348
6/28 AMPS: 4: 480

Based on the data: action of 1 unit of ProZinc's doesn't last 6 hours. Plus Coby is starting to show increased food/drink/pee now. Going back to 1.2 units.
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I agree. This is how we figure out doses, with this type of experiment. If you don't see better numbers after 3 cycles at 1.2 u, go up to 1.4 u, then 1.6 u, etc.
 
It was a good time to do that experiment while on a small dose. Definitely time for an increase now and good news is we know for sure that he needs it! :)
 
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